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(NPR)   Arizona's "immigration" law that locks people up for failure to produce 'ze papers'? Written and even named by a consortium of private prison contractors in conjunction with R.J. Reynolds., ExxonMobil and the NRA   (npr.org) divider line 309
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8908 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Oct 2010 at 1:28 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-10-28 03:16:12 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man:

So you truly believe that Arizona doesn't have officers that can speak Spanish that are available within several hours? That a quick check, after speaking with the interpreter, will yield the proper information and release of the individual?


I believe that Arizona has plenty of Spanish speaking cops. It is also my belief that Arpiao and his goons will use this law to abuse citizens and deny them Constitutional rights, and that the old bigots in Sun City will praise this as "getting things done."
 
2010-10-28 03:16:33 PM
cmb53208: DarnoKonrad:

4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

OK, so let's say that I white guy with a Polish-sounding last name have a DL/ID Card from a state that does not require proof of legal residency in the US: does that mean then that I'll have to carry a passport to travel in a state in my own freakin' country? Bullshiat!

I've got a better idea: since I don't want to chance getting deported to Lithuania or some other nonsense, how about I just avoid that arrid hellhiole full of old racists waiting to die? frkk Arizona.


You won't get any of the supporters of this law to address that. I keep asking and they all ignore it. As long as we're being "tough" on the "illegals" locking up US citizens for not having the right papers is no big deal to them.
 
2010-10-28 03:18:03 PM

This isn't the first time private companies have been built to be filled and for profit.

Check this out.

(New window)
 
2010-10-28 03:18:07 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: They are saying that the stop, detention, or arrest has to be made by one of several types of individuals or agencies in the enforcement of another law or ordinance.

I really can't see how you are making this stretch and still claim to read and write English fluently. Maybe you don't understand how legal documents are written, or you can't read. Either way, not my problem, but I'm most certainly not the one twisting it out of shape. You are the one desperately flailing to make the law fit what you think it says rather than what it actually says.




You are not right in the head. It does not say what you are interpreting it to mean.

You have to change the whole sentence around see what you're claiming. I don't know what your problem is.
 
2010-10-28 03:20:44 PM
Weaver95: Blues_X: Prisons should never, ever, be for-profit enterprises.

you should take a look into how privately run prisons lobby for stricter laws and longer jail terms. it's an interesting confluence of law, legislators and authoritarian philosophies.


go to any community college and check out the "criminal justice" majors.
 
2010-10-28 03:23:08 PM
DarnoKonrad: There's also a Bail Bondsman Lobby with an incestuous relationship with the court system to lock people up

Wow! Great article - for thoose of you who don't want to read it just ponder this for a second: "According to the Justice Department, two-thirds of the people in the nation's jails are petty, nonviolent offenders who are there for only one reason: They can't afford their bail."
 
2010-10-28 03:25:26 PM
cmb53208: DarnoKonrad:

4. If the entity requires proof of legal presence in the United States before issuance, any valid United States federal, state or local government issued identification.

OK, so let's say that I white guy with a Polish-sounding last name have a DL/ID Card from a state that does not require proof of legal residency in the US: does that mean then that I'll have to carry a passport to travel in a state in my own freakin' country? Bullshiat!

I've got a better idea: since I don't want to chance getting deported to Lithuania or some other nonsense, how about I just avoid that arrid hellhiole full of old racists waiting to die? frkk Arizona.


No, no, no. You're white. None of this applies to you.
 
2010-10-28 03:26:22 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: So you truly believe that Arizona doesn't have officers that can speak Spanish that are available within several hours? That a quick check, after speaking with the interpreter, will yield the proper information and release of the individual?

So you are saying that every person detained can just simply say to an interpreter "I'm Puerto Rican" and will be free to waltz away? Or are you saying that the INS will be rapidly sorting through citizenship records and returning requests within the span of a short conversation?

I think detaining someone for several hours on the basis of establishing their citizenship stretches reasonable detention. The law is guaranteed to result in the detention of American citizens.
 
2010-10-28 03:26:54 PM
Cataholic: FTA:

The law is being challenged in the courts. But if it's upheld, it requires police to lock up anyone they stop who cannot show proof they entered the country legally.

Completely untrue, but it's what the opponents of the law want everyone to think. So much for NPR being "objective".


Anyone who thinks NPR is objective is a complete and utter fool.

This article is disgustingly one sided, and not even that disturbing when you step away from all the emotional appeals & loaded bywords and take a rational view of the facts:
Prison companies benefit from a law that sends people to prison.

No shiat sherlock? Holy fark, I'm so glad NPR was there to break this piece of news!!!!
 
2010-10-28 03:34:19 PM
DarnoKonrad: The_Six_Fingered_Man: They are saying that the stop, detention, or arrest has to be made by one of several types of individuals or agencies in the enforcement of another law or ordinance.

I really can't see how you are making this stretch and still claim to read and write English fluently. Maybe you don't understand how legal documents are written, or you can't read. Either way, not my problem, but I'm most certainly not the one twisting it out of shape. You are the one desperately flailing to make the law fit what you think it says rather than what it actually says.



You are not right in the head. It does not say what you are interpreting it to mean.

You have to change the whole sentence around see what you're claiming. I don't know what your problem is.


You are the one that is claiming that there are two different rationales based on whether you are a state cop or a local cop, and I'm not the one right in the head? Go find me someone else that believes what you are saying. I'll wait.

In the meantime, here's a couple of papers written that back me up:

Determination of Person's Immigration Status Due to Reasonable Suspicion and Arrests

The legislation requires state and local law enforcement, whenever making a lawful stop, detention, or arrest in the enforcement of another state or local law, to make a reasonable attempt to determine the person's immigration status where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is unlawfully present in the county. Law enforcement should only make this attempt when practicable and when doing so would not hinder or obstruct an investigation. Anyone arrested cannot be released until his or her immigration status is determined and verified with the federal government. Law enforcement "may not consider race, color, or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution. "


On April 29, the last day of legislative session, the Arizona Legislature approved and the governor signed HB 2162 that included provisions intended to address the racial profiling concerns. HB 2162 amended SB 1070 to specify that law enforcement officials cannot consider race, color or national origin when implementing the provisions of the original law, except as permitted by the U.S. or Arizona Constitution. The law clarified the original law's language around "reasonable suspicion" by requiring state and local law enforcement to reasonably attempt to determine the immigration status of a person only while in the process of a lawful stop, detention or arrest (the original language referred to "lawful contact.") HB 2162 also stipulated that a lawful stop, detention or arrest must be in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town of this state.

The Arizona House of Representatives has proposed amendments to the controversial Arizona Immigration Law SB 1070 signed just last week.

Arizona HB 2162 (NOW: immigration; border security) would amend SB 1070 as follows:

* Changes "lawful contact" to "lawful stop, detention or arrest." Picture 6
* Stipulates that a lawful stop, detention or arrest must be in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city or town or this state.
* Stipulates that a reasonable attempt must be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of a person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation when reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien and is unlawfully present in the U.S.
* Removes "solely" from the provision relating the prohibition on discriminatory enforcement.
* Stipulates that for the Enforcement of Immigration Law, Unlawfully Picking up Passengers for Work and Unlawfully Transporting or Harboring Unlawful Aliens the immigration status may be determined by:
* A law enforcement officer who is authorized by the federal government to verify or ascertain an alien's immigration status.
* ICE or CBP pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1373(c).
* Specifies that 8 U.S.C § 1373 and 8 U.S.C § 1644 are included in the federal immigration laws relating to challenges regarding policies adopted or implemented by an entity.
* Stipulates that for the enforcement of Willful Failure to Complete or Carry an Alien Registration Document, Unlawfully Picking up Passengers for Work and Unlawfully Transporting or Harboring Unlawful Aliens a law enforcement official or agency cannot consider race, color or national origin when implementing these provisions, except as permitted by the U.S. or Arizona Constitution.
 
2010-10-28 03:35:47 PM
wolfpaq777: his article is disgustingly one sided, and not even that disturbing when you step away from all the emotional appeals & loaded bywords and take a rational view of the facts:
Prison companies benefit from a law that sends people to prison.


So it's not disturbing to you that prison companies are actively lobbying government to find ways to put YOU into prison? Wow, talk about disgusting.
 
2010-10-28 03:36:22 PM
wolfpaq777: Prison companies lobbied a state Senator, contributed to campaign funds of 2/3rd's of the Senators who co-sponsored and drafted a bill so they could benefit from a law that sends people to prison.

No shiat sherlock?


But really no big deal right?
 
2010-10-28 03:36:24 PM
drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: So you truly believe that Arizona doesn't have officers that can speak Spanish that are available within several hours? That a quick check, after speaking with the interpreter, will yield the proper information and release of the individual?

So you are saying that every person detained can just simply say to an interpreter "I'm Puerto Rican" and will be free to waltz away? Or are you saying that the INS will be rapidly sorting through citizenship records and returning requests within the span of a short conversation?

I think detaining someone for several hours on the basis of establishing their citizenship stretches reasonable detention. The law is guaranteed to result in the detention of American citizens.


I'm not entirely sure how quickly the ICE LESC hotline works, though it is open 24/365 and one of the primary duties is to respond to law enforcement requests.
 
2010-10-28 03:37:12 PM
plainlyclueless: this from a news organization that fired a black man because he explained how he felt about something.

yeah.


Which would be OK if it wasn't for the fact that his job is to report on the news, not talk about how he feels. Wasn't the first time he'd been reprimanded for doing that, just this last time, the timing was bad.
 
2010-10-28 03:37:39 PM
bookman
pvd021: The hippies were right, this country is turning into a prison state. But its in Arizona, who in the world would want to live there anyways, with that level of blatant xenophobia and stupidity. Either their a good proportion of their public are stupid and lazy, or they agree with these crazy laws. Either way, I hope they enjoy.

Particularly since YOU will NOT be there, right?

Go boycott some Arizona Iced Tea; it will make you feel better.

If Brown wins in California and they go ahead with the Final Solutions Global Warming Bill, I will probably be moving to Arizona shortly thereafter.


I won't be boycotting anything, since nothing I do really involves Arizona. Personally, I enjoy watching people practice what they preach. If they have a serious immigration problem and want to implement policies that may induce bigotry, discrimination, and xenophobia. Go right ahead. What is going to be fun is watching a very serious matter, sooner or later, eventually come into light, and the state or entity implementing this program will get directly sued by victims of this policies, and win.
Its like when the KKK set up a little area for themselves and were left alone for so long, someone accidentally 'trespassed' through their town, and were murdered. Yeah people had to die for their stupidity, but in the end the KKK lost everything.

Just like another story in PA, when a town was implementing the same rules as AZ now. Their policy of catching illegal immigrants put so many immigrants in fear they all fled. Within 6 months time, half of the local businesses collapsed, never to return again. Now the town looks somewhat like a milder version of Detroit and rural Kentucky. Stupid policies/beliefs are fine, so long as it bites the right people in the ass harder than it did the victims. Like that prosecutor that tried to get those Duke Lacrosse players for rape. I'm just wondering if Bush Jr. will ever see backlash from his policy. I mean last I heard, Donald Rumsfeld has disappeared from Earth, and we all knew how great of a policy he invoked.
 
2010-10-28 03:43:19 PM
Cataholic:

1. The person has to be lawfully stopped or detained for committing some other crime.

it just has to be a valid stop, which can be anything. i've been followed by cops for miles, then they turn on the lights and say, "well i saw your tire hit the yellow line." so this doesn't mean anything.

2. The officer has to have reasonable suspicion that the person is in the country illegally.

what does this even mean? how can you have reasonable suspicion on this? "i saw a "how to find work when you are illegally in the country" book in the passenger seat." -cop. try to make a case for reasonable suspicion that doesn't involve "considering national origin" as it says you can't do elsewhere in the law. if the law really is only for those times that the Aliens leave the evidence ,that isn't their skin color, in plain site, then it is a huge waste of taxpayer money as people will just sue them for not having reasonable suspicion.

3. Then and only then it requires the officer to make a reasonable attempt, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of that person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

Which just puts more discretion in the cops hands.

i would prefer it would REQUIRE they lock up anyone that can't show proof, at least then it would be fair. currently it is just for harassing the people they want to harass. and i don't mean the Mexican driving a beat up pickup, i mean whoever the cop feels like farking with.

i don't know if the people that support this law are the same one's that hate big gov't, but i am really tired of the right saying they want fewer taxes, then voting to raise taxes. then they want the gov't out of their lives, but they make laws about who can be married (when we already have a law against gay marriage, they make another one, effing waste) and giving gov't agents more power than ever.
 
2010-10-28 03:46:04 PM
mxwjs: try to make a case for reasonable suspicion that doesn't involve "considering national origin" as it says you can't do elsewhere in the law.

"except to the extent permitted by the US or Arizona Constitutions."

Which permit using national origin when coupled with other articulable facts.
 
2010-10-28 03:46:32 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com

"Where in God's name did you get these? "

/not obscure at all
//couldnt find the one where the board the bus
///ze papers can be forged
 
2010-10-28 03:47:34 PM
wolfpaq777: Cataholic: FTA:

The law is being challenged in the courts. But if it's upheld, it requires police to lock up anyone they stop who cannot show proof they entered the country legally.

Completely untrue, but it's what the opponents of the law want everyone to think. So much for NPR being "objective".

Anyone who thinks NPR is objective is a complete and utter fool.

This article is disgustingly one sided, and not even that disturbing when you step away from all the emotional appeals & loaded bywords and take a rational view of the facts:
Prison companies benefit from a law that sends people to prison.

No shiat sherlock? Holy fark, I'm so glad NPR was there to break this piece of news!!!!


Yeah! So some mega corporations have a vested interest in a large prison population for slave labor and government money and spend huge amounts of money to make sure laws are increasing strict and have harsher penalties. Big Deal!

Those brown people are... Brown! And are socialist, communist, terrorists coming here to take jobs nobody here legally really wants to do. Do they eat white babies? We don't really know but they might!

And that's not racist.
 
2010-10-28 03:48:24 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: "Maybe you could show the class where in either bill the power to lock people up for failure to show papers might be located?"

next to the bit about death panels.
 
2010-10-28 03:48:29 PM
ArmanTanzarian: One word:

High-Speed Mag_Lev Bullet Trains

Mexican workers commute to work in the US & home again to Mexico each day. We charge a fee for the service. Problem solved.


chud.com

This movie is based on a similar premise, except the work is being done by machines that are remotely controlled from Mexico by thousands of people plugged into virtual reality systems. It's actually a very interesting film and not all that implausible.

graphics8.nytimes.com
 
2010-10-28 03:48:33 PM
DarnoKonrad: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Where?

For any lawful STOP, DETENTION OR ARREST made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official

or

a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state IN THE ENFORCEMENT OF ANY OTHER LAW OR ORDINANCE OF A COUNTY, CITY OR TOWN OR THIS STATE


Those are all separate rationales for who can be asked to produce documents that presume residency.


You completely fail at statutory interpretation.

For any lawful STOP, DETENTION OR ARREST made by (a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state) or (a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state) in the enforcement of any other law or ordinance of a county, city, town, or this state.


Paren. phrase 1 describes law enforcment of state governments, paren. phrase 2 describes law enforcement of city/county governments.
 
2010-10-28 03:50:44 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: I'm not entirely sure how quickly the ICE LESC hotline works, though it is open 24/365 and one of the primary duties is to respond to law enforcement requests.

SB 1070 states that requests must be made pursuant to 8 United States Code Section 1373 - so through the INS. I mean, it doesn't matter as long as it happens in a reasonable time span.

Anyways, I don't think the law will hold up well against the Supremacy clause. It seems to me that even if it is Constitutional, it is impractical and costly. I'd rather not be detained for several hours because I ran down to the store in my PJ's and forgot my ID.
 
2010-10-28 03:52:30 PM
drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: I'm not entirely sure how quickly the ICE LESC hotline works, though it is open 24/365 and one of the primary duties is to respond to law enforcement requests.

SB 1070 states that requests must be made pursuant to 8 United States Code Section 1373 - so through the INS. I mean, it doesn't matter as long as it happens in a reasonable time span.

Anyways, I don't think the law will hold up well against the Supremacy clause. It seems to me that even if it is Constitutional, it is impractical and costly. I'd rather not be detained for several hours because I ran down to the store in my PJ's and forgot my ID.


You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?
 
2010-10-28 03:57:18 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.
 
2010-10-28 04:01:13 PM
drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.


Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.
 
2010-10-28 04:03:52 PM
drewkumo: wolfpaq777: Prison companies lobbied a state Senator, contributed to campaign funds of 2/3rd's of the Senators who co-sponsored and drafted a bill so they could benefit from a law that sends people to prison.

No shiat sherlock?

But really no big deal right?


Even The Economist talked about this last month:
http://www.economist.com/node/16636027?story_id=16636027

Leading the free world my ass.
 
2010-10-28 04:06:37 PM
While the supporters of 1070 can say all they want about how the law is Constitutional they not only ignore the Supremacy clause in the Constitution but also fail to comprehend that the Jim Crow laws of the South were written in exactly the same way as 1070 is. Wrong then, wrong now!

Maybe instead of worrying so much about what the Feds are doing or not doing, Arizona should fixed it's employer sanctions law so that they can do something about the Criminals that hire the illegal aliens. This is one law that will not only stand up to legal scrutiny (sorry Obama) but will also actually do something about the illegals!

Maybe Jan and the other Arizona Republicans should change those billboards saying "Arizona , doing the job the Feds won't do!" To "Arizona, Failing to do our job so we will say the Feds are not doing theirs!"
 
2010-10-28 04:08:50 PM
calculator13: Sorry, how exactly do the prison's make money? State taxes paying to house the "prisoners"? And elected officials in this case are so greedy they want to just cough up a boat load of money to these prisons courtesy of "joe tax paying citizen" for what exact reason? Does the Politician get a kickback and voted out office for raising taxes to support it all?

Something smells fishy about this story... NPR.


Check your upper lip, moron.
 
2010-10-28 04:12:33 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.


So hauling US citizens to the police station for not having the proper papers is OK with you as long as it's only for a few minutes? How long will you stay in a holding cell waiting for them to process you before you get upset?
 
2010-10-28 04:14:28 PM
Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.

So hauling US citizens to the police station for not having the proper papers is OK with you as long as it's only for a few minutes? How long will you stay in a holding cell waiting for them to process you before you get upset?


Well, I carry a California DL, which requires proof of residency before issuance, so I'm all good.

But we're talking about the average length of a traffic stop here. It's not an inordinate amount of time.
 
2010-10-28 04:15:52 PM
The only thing that surprises me about this story is that some of you Farkers seem surprised about being governed by big business.

You keep electing the farkers, you'll keep getting farked.
 
2010-10-28 04:16:25 PM
pvd021: I won't be boycotting anything, since nothing I do really involves Arizona.

this kind of stuff humors me. phoenix is the 5th largest city in the nation. i just quickly went and looked up a bunch of stuff that is made in phoenix metro, and sure there is Intel, Microchip, ON semi, Boeing, Lockheed, Honeywell all employ a lot of people. sure you could avoid those companies, but my favorite is " Swift Transportation Co. is now the nations largest publicly-held truckload carrier. Founded in 1965, their headquarters can be found in Phoenix."

it would be tough to have nothing to do with Swift

/narrow vision is narrow
 
2010-10-28 04:16:37 PM
Cataholic: Diogenes: Cataholic: FTA:

The law is being challenged in the courts. But if it's upheld, it requires police to lock up anyone they stop who cannot show proof they entered the country legally.

Completely untrue, but it's what the opponents of the law want everyone to think. So much for NPR being "objective".

So what do they do if they find someone undocumented?

1. The person has to be lawfully stopped or detained for committing some other crime.

2. The officer has to have reasonable suspicion that the person is in the country illegally.

3. Then and only then it requires the officer to make a reasonable attempt, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of that person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

Those three steps have to be taken long before we get anywhere close to the "locking up" part mentioned in TFA. One has to presume that most people who "cannot show proof they are in the country legally," when pulled over by the police will fall by the wayside somewhere along those three steps and never get to "lockup".


Gee, it sure is funny then that major corporations are so hot to start building brand-new prisons just for the overflow. You seem literate, but sometimes you have to read between the lines.
 
2010-10-28 04:17:52 PM
Hey, where did Darno go?
 
2010-10-28 04:23:20 PM
bookman: FTFA: "Last year, two men showed up in Benson, Ariz., a small desert town 60 miles from the Mexico border, offering a deal."

Hmmmmmmm...... mysterious men (in black, no doubt, with little red flashlight thingees....) with no names, no affiliations.

GOTTA be true! Would a City Manager make shiat up?

FTFA

"NPR spent the past several months analyzing hundreds of pages of campaign finance reports, lobbying documents and corporate records. What they show is a quiet, behind-the-scenes effort to help draft and pass Arizona Senate Bill 1070 by an industry that stands to benefit from it: the private prison industry."

What reports? What documents? How about some names, dates, places, you know, the standard for reporting: "who what where when how why" that sort of shiat?

FTFA "It's a membership organization of state legislators and powerful corporations and associations, such as the tobacco company Reynolds American Inc., ExxonMobil and the National Rifle Association. Another member is the billion-dollar Corrections Corporation of America - the largest private prison company in the country."

Little short on, ya know, actual FACTS there, aren't we, Laura baby? That's some really hard hitting journalism there, totally up to NPR standards.

Sorry, based on this "reporting" I'll stick to my racistxenophobic known facts rather than running around in a libtard frothing hysteria.

(Wow, and lefty moonbats make fun of World Net Daily!)


At least there ARE some facts instead of nothing but ignorant republitards screaming their paranoid lies and worshipping their nazi cult leaders. World Nut Daily is nothing but "2 minutes hate" style propaganda for retarded bigots and hateful shrimp-dicked losers like you. So go fark yourself, troll-biatch.

make the world a better place...shoot republicans in the face.
 
2010-10-28 04:25:58 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.

So hauling US citizens to the police station for not having the proper papers is OK with you as long as it's only for a few minutes? How long will you stay in a holding cell waiting for them to process you before you get upset?

Well, I carry a California DL, which requires proof of residency before issuance, so I'm all good.

But we're talking about the average length of a traffic stop here. It's not an inordinate amount of time.


No, were talking about the cop pulling you over, and see's that your license doesn't meet Arizona's requirements. He then asks you to step out of the vehicle, pats you down, hand cuffs you, and puts you into the back of his squad car. He then drives you to the Police station. Still handcuffed, you are removed from the squad car and led to a holding cell, where you sit until the clerk can process you. When it's finally your turn, you are led out, and handcuffed to the booking desk while the clerk takes your information. When the clerk is done talking to you, you are returned to the holding cell. Now, if you are lucky, and the clerk isn't too busy, he makes the 10 minute phone call without you having to wait too long. If you check out, you are taken out of the holding cell, and processed out, getting your personal belongings back. Meanwhile, your car has been towed from the side of the road, and is in the impound lot. You'll have to catch a cab from the Police station to the lot to get it out.

Still sound reasonable to you?
 
2010-10-28 04:27:23 PM
Canned Tamales

Something smells fishy about this story... NPR.

Check your upper lip, moron.


Oh wow great line. Can I use that sometime to completely own someone else too? I mean, I know you probably created it and everything but wow that was just great.

The only reason my upper lip might be fishy is because your mom was over last night.....again...

D-Bag
 
2010-10-28 04:27:42 PM

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2010-10-28 04:28:35 PM
Kazan: BetaFlame

Something like 40% of their recent endorsements were democrats. Not true as far as I can tell.
 
2010-10-28 04:30:06 PM
Canned Tamales: Cataholic: Diogenes: Cataholic: FTA:

The law is being challenged in the courts. But if it's upheld, it requires police to lock up anyone they stop who cannot show proof they entered the country legally.

Completely untrue, but it's what the opponents of the law want everyone to think. So much for NPR being "objective".

So what do they do if they find someone undocumented?

1. The person has to be lawfully stopped or detained for committing some other crime.

2. The officer has to have reasonable suspicion that the person is in the country illegally.

3. Then and only then it requires the officer to make a reasonable attempt, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of that person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

Those three steps have to be taken long before we get anywhere close to the "locking up" part mentioned in TFA. One has to presume that most people who "cannot show proof they are in the country legally," when pulled over by the police will fall by the wayside somewhere along those three steps and never get to "lockup".

Gee, it sure is funny then that major corporations are so hot to start building brand-new prisons just for the overflow. You seem literate, but sometimes you have to read between the lines.


The corporations are just planning ahead for the future.
 
2010-10-28 04:31:54 PM
Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.

So hauling US citizens to the police station for not having the proper papers is OK with you as long as it's only for a few minutes? How long will you stay in a holding cell waiting for them to process you before you get upset?

Well, I carry a California DL, which requires proof of residency before issuance, so I'm all good.

But we're talking about the average length of a traffic stop here. It's not an inordinate amount of time.

No, were talking about the cop pulling you over, and see's that your license doesn't meet Arizona's requirements. He then asks you to step out of the vehicle, pats you down, hand cuffs you, and puts you into the back of his squad car. He then drives you to the Police station. Still handcuffed, you are removed from the squad car and led to a holding cell, where you sit until the clerk can process you. When it's finally your turn, you are led out, and handcuffed to the booking desk while the clerk takes your information. When the clerk is done talking to you, you are returned to the holding cell. Now, if you are lucky, and the clerk isn't too busy, he makes the 10 minute phone call without you having to wait too long. If you check out, you are taken out of the holding cell, and processed out, getting your personal belongings back. Meanwhile, your car has been towed from the side of the road, and is in the impound lot. You'll have to catch a cab from the Police station to the lot to get it out.

Still sound reasonable to you?


Well, I'm a 30 year old white guy. What reasonable suspicion did I give him that I'm illegal? Also, I have a California ID, which is acceptable documentation to presume that I am in the country legally, per the Arizona law.

Also, no one says that this phone call has to take place at the station. LEOs can call the LESC from the phone in their cruiser, or access the LESC from the computer terminal in the cruiser. Remember, the law states that a reasonable determination must be made, when practicable. The situation you described, at least to me, does not seem practicable when alternative solutions are present. Taking someone all the way down to the station creates paperwork. Doing a roadside check is significantly less paperwork. How many cops do you know that like to do paperwork, even to catch ebil brown people?
 
2010-10-28 04:36:26 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.

So hauling US citizens to the police station for not having the proper papers is OK with you as long as it's only for a few minutes? How long will you stay in a holding cell waiting for them to process you before you get upset?

Well, I carry a California DL, which requires proof of residency before issuance, so I'm all good.

But we're talking about the average length of a traffic stop here. It's not an inordinate amount of time.

No, were talking about the cop pulling you over, and see's that your license doesn't meet Arizona's requirements. He then asks you to step out of the vehicle, pats you down, hand cuffs you, and puts you into the back of his squad car. He then drives you to the Police station. Still handcuffed, you are removed from the squad car and led to a holding cell, where you sit until the clerk can process you. When it's finally your turn, you are led out, and handcuffed to the booking desk while the clerk takes your information. When the clerk is done talking to you, you are returned to the holding cell. Now, if you are lucky, and the clerk isn't too busy, he makes the 10 minute phone call without you having to wait too long. If you check out, you are taken out of the holding cell, and processed out, getting your personal belongings back. Meanwhile, your car has been towed from the side of the road, and is in the impound lot. You'll have to catch a cab from the Police station to the lot to get it out.

Still sound reasonable to you?

Well, I'm a 30 year old white guy. What reasonable suspicion did I give him that I'm illegal? Also, I have a California ID, which is acceptable documentation to presume that I am in the country legally, per the Arizona law.

Also, no one says that this phone call has to take place at the station. LEOs can call the LESC from the phone in their cruiser, or access the LESC from the computer terminal in the cruiser. Remember, the law states that a reasonable determination must be made, when practicable. The situation you described, at least to me, does not seem practicable when alternative solutions are present. Taking someone all the way down to the station creates paperwork. Doing a roadside check is significantly less paperwork. How many cops do you know that like to do paperwork, even to catch ebil brown people?


If the scenario you lay out is true then why are they trying to build more prisons?
 
2010-10-28 04:40:27 PM
kapaso: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.

So hauling US citizens to the police station for not having the proper papers is OK with you as long as it's only for a few minutes? How long will you stay in a holding cell waiting for them to process you before you get upset?

Well, I carry a California DL, which requires proof of residency before issuance, so I'm all good.

But we're talking about the average length of a traffic stop here. It's not an inordinate amount of time.

No, were talking about the cop pulling you over, and see's that your license doesn't meet Arizona's requirements. He then asks you to step out of the vehicle, pats you down, hand cuffs you, and puts you into the back of his squad car. He then drives you to the Police station. Still handcuffed, you are removed from the squad car and led to a holding cell, where you sit until the clerk can process you. When it's finally your turn, you are led out, and handcuffed to the booking desk while the clerk takes your information. When the clerk is done talking to you, you are returned to the holding cell. Now, if you are lucky, and the clerk isn't too busy, he makes the 10 minute phone call without you having to wait too long. If you check out, you are taken out of the holding cell, and processed out, getting your personal belongings back. Meanwhile, your car has been towed from the side of the road, and is in the impound lot. You'll have to catch a cab from the Police station to the lot to get it out.

Still sound reasonable to you?

Well, I'm a 30 year old white guy. What reasonable suspicion did I give him that I'm illegal? Also, I have a California ID, which is acceptable documentation to presume that I am in the country legally, per the Arizona law.

Also, no one says that this phone call has to take place at the station. LEOs can call the LESC from the phone in their cruiser, or access the LESC from the computer terminal in the cruiser. Remember, the law states that a reasonable determination must be made, when practicable. The situation you described, at least to me, does not seem practicable when alternative solutions are present. Taking someone all the way down to the station creates paperwork. Doing a roadside check is significantly less paperwork. How many cops do you know that like to do paperwork, even to catch ebil brown people?

If the scenario you lay out is true then why are they trying to build more prisons?


I honestly have no idea. I'm not involved in that process.
 
2010-10-28 04:41:11 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: Well, I'm a 30 year old white guy. What reasonable suspicion did I give him that I'm illegal?

Brown skin is reasonable suspicion that you're an illegal?
 
2010-10-28 04:45:10 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.

So hauling US citizens to the police station for not having the proper papers is OK with you as long as it's only for a few minutes? How long will you stay in a holding cell waiting for them to process you before you get upset?

Well, I carry a California DL, which requires proof of residency before issuance, so I'm all good.

But we're talking about the average length of a traffic stop here. It's not an inordinate amount of time.

No, were talking about the cop pulling you over, and see's that your license doesn't meet Arizona's requirements. He then asks you to step out of the vehicle, pats you down, hand cuffs you, and puts you into the back of his squad car. He then drives you to the Police station. Still handcuffed, you are removed from the squad car and led to a holding cell, where you sit until the clerk can process you. When it's finally your turn, you are led out, and handcuffed to the booking desk while the clerk takes your information. When the clerk is done talking to you, you are returned to the holding cell. Now, if you are lucky, and the clerk isn't too busy, he makes the 10 minute phone call without you having to wait too long. If you check out, you are taken out of the holding cell, and processed out, getting your personal belongings back. Meanwhile, your car has been towed from the side of the road, and is in the impound lot. You'll have to catch a cab from the Police station to the lot to get it out.

Still sound reasonable to you?

Well, I'm a 30 year old white guy. What reasonable suspicion did I give him that I'm illegal? Also, I have a California ID, which is acceptable documentation to presume that I am in the country legally, per the Arizona law.

Also, no one says that this phone call has to take place at the station. LEOs can call the LESC from the phone in their cruiser, or access the LESC from the computer terminal in the cruiser. Remember, the law states that a reasonable determination must be made, when practicable. The situation you described, at least to me, does not seem practicable when alternative solutions are present. Taking someone all the way down to the station creates paperwork. Doing a roadside check is significantly less paperwork. How many cops do you know that like to do paperwork, even to catch ebil brown people?


So as long as 30 year old white guys aren't bothered, who cares? Let's say instead you are a thirty year old naturalized immigrant from Spain. You are a US citizen, but you are from Illinois, who's ID requirements don't meet Arizona's standards.

No one says that the call will be made from the Police car either. Depending on what information is needed by LESC, it's entirely likely that the process will be more involved than what can be easily handled from the car. And once they take you in, that whole procedure will be followed.
 
2010-10-28 04:45:37 PM
Soup4Bonnie: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Well, I'm a 30 year old white guy. What reasonable suspicion did I give him that I'm illegal?

Brown skin is reasonable suspicion that you're an illegal?


When coupled with other articulable facts, sure. See: US v Brignoni-Ponce, which I referred to earlier.
 
2010-10-28 04:46:21 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: kapaso: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Philip Francis Queeg: The_Six_Fingered_Man: drewkumo: The_Six_Fingered_Man: You realize that the INS ceased to exist in 2003 and now those duties are handled by ICE, right?

Nah I didn't realize that. But like I said, it doesn't matter much as long as it is done in a reasonable amount of time.

Which is why the LESC exists. To return requests in a reasonable amount of time.

This page states that it takes about 10 minutes for the hits to come back. That's pretty reasonable to me.

So hauling US citizens to the police station for not having the proper papers is OK with you as long as it's only for a few minutes? How long will you stay in a holding cell waiting for them to process you before you get upset?

Well, I carry a California DL, which requires proof of residency before issuance, so I'm all good.

But we're talking about the average length of a traffic stop here. It's not an inordinate amount of time.

No, were talking about the cop pulling you over, and see's that your license doesn't meet Arizona's requirements. He then asks you to step out of the vehicle, pats you down, hand cuffs you, and puts you into the back of his squad car. He then drives you to the Police station. Still handcuffed, you are removed from the squad car and led to a holding cell, where you sit until the clerk can process you. When it's finally your turn, you are led out, and handcuffed to the booking desk while the clerk takes your information. When the clerk is done talking to you, you are returned to the holding cell. Now, if you are lucky, and the clerk isn't too busy, he makes the 10 minute phone call without you having to wait too long. If you check out, you are taken out of the holding cell, and processed out, getting your personal belongings back. Meanwhile, your car has been towed from the side of the road, and is in the impound lot. You'll have to catch a cab from the Police station to the lot to get it out.

Still sound reasonable to you?

Well, I'm a 30 year old white guy. What reasonable suspicion did I give him that I'm illegal? Also, I have a California ID, which is acceptable documentation to presume that I am in the country legally, per the Arizona law.

Also, no one says that this phone call has to take place at the station. LEOs can call the LESC from the phone in their cruiser, or access the LESC from the computer terminal in the cruiser. Remember, the law states that a reasonable determination must be made, when practicable. The situation you described, at least to me, does not seem practicable when alternative solutions are present. Taking someone all the way down to the station creates paperwork. Doing a roadside check is significantly less paperwork. How many cops do you know that like to do paperwork, even to catch ebil brown people?

If the scenario you lay out is true then why are they trying to build more prisons?

I honestly have no idea. I'm not involved in that process.


You honestly have no idea?

Are you disingenuous or obtuse? They are building more prisons so they can fill them up and make a profit. Not really hard to figure out, unless you think they plan on taking huge losses when they stand empty.
 
2010-10-28 04:51:37 PM
The_Six_Fingered_Man: When coupled with other articulable facts, sure. See: US v Brignoni-Ponce, which I referred to earlier.

I told you earlier that Brignoni-Ponce only referred to the border area, not all of Arizona. This is why people object to this law, it encourages racial profiling.

You convinced me that the determination that you are a citizen could be done relatively quickly, but this doesn't prevent the targeting of minorities.
 
2010-10-28 04:51:54 PM
Philip Francis Queeg: So as long as 30 year old white guys aren't bothered, who cares? Let's say instead you are a thirty year old naturalized immigrant from Spain. You are a US citizen, but you are from Illinois, who's ID requirements don't meet Arizona's standards.

No one says that the call will be made from the Police car either. Depending on what information is needed by LESC, it's entirely likely that the process will be more involved than what can be easily handled from the car. And once they take you in, that whole procedure will be followed.


The LESC has a hotline specifically to handle immigration checks. I honestly cannot think of a situation in which a 10 minute check would have to be handled at the station instead of a roadside check. Maybe you can drum up another hypothetical situation in which you manage to hit all the exceptions to the law so we can discuss it.
 
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