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(Telegraph)   Research finds ADHD leads to depression in teens - pretty much like everything else does   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 104
    More: Obvious, ADHD, teens, Cardiff University, self-destructive behaviour  
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1571 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Oct 2010 at 3:45 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-10-05 05:07:50 PM  
My parents didn't beat me, and I don't have ADHD, so would you guys saying "beat the ADHD outta them!" please shut your yobs?
 
2010-10-05 05:10:23 PM  
Pucca 2010-10-05 04:54:18 PM
kiwimoogle84: See, this is why my mother is my hero.

I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was a kid because I was squirly and didn't want to do homework or sit still.

*crickets*

Anyone know a kid like that? Jeez.

Anyway Doc said "stuff her face full of Ritalin."

Mom said, "Go fark yourself, I'm limiting her sugar intake."

Now at 26, I've never been on a medication in my life and I'm college educated without a lick of trouble. Go screw yourself, drug-happy moms and dads who would rather medicate rather than be a good parent.

/also got teh spankings when acting up
//mom's my hero

See, this is why my mom sucked. She told me to "get over it" and refused to let me see a doctor about my problem. Now I'm 38 and and have been on medication since I was able to leave the house on my own. I got no help from my mother who even told me that going on anti-depressants was "stupid". Some kids need it and some don't. Glad it worked out for you, but don't call parents that medicate their kids drug happy.


I wasn't referring to ALL parents whose children are on meds. Some do need it, I agree. But when it's the first course of action instead of a "well, we tried other things first" sort of thing. Or when the kids don't need it. Or when therapy might work better. My 18 year old cousin has been on antidepressants since she was 13 because my aunt decided she was withdrawn and moody. Well, yeah, she's 13. Duh. Now my 18 year old cousin basically is dependant on drugs because of her bad withdrawls and has the social skills OF a 13 year old. It's sad. Instead of maybe counseling, my aunt went the easy route and had her pop a pill.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to lump all parents in. But I think there are steps that might be taken first before chemicals.
 
2010-10-05 05:12:47 PM  
Is one of the symptoms of ADHD trying to pronounce it like an acronym in your head every time you see it in print? Because, yeah, whatever that's a symptom of, I definitely have it.

/AHdud. ahDUD. ADDAhud.
 
2010-10-05 05:13:49 PM  
Why so serious?

i242.photobucket.com
 
2010-10-05 05:15:25 PM  
Subby, I would argue that being good looking and popular isn't a major cause for depression as a teenager, of course I personally wouldn't know for sure.

HeWhoHasNoName: I'd like to see your PhD in one of the following subjects:

1. Neurology
2. Psychiatry
3. Behavioral Medicine

Plz kthx.



1. Real
2. Fake
3. Fake
 
2010-10-05 05:16:54 PM  
HeWhoHasNoName: As somebody who went through the public school system in recent years with severe ADHD, I'm shaking my head at most of these replies.

I'm still baffled that people seem to grasp that we can't "fix" autism, dyslexia, or schizophrenia with "better parenting" or "more beatings", but apparently people still think that's a completely reasonable plan for ADHD.


You forgot autism
 
2010-10-05 05:20:14 PM  
What ADHD drugs are good for:

www.bugbash.net
 
2010-10-05 05:20:37 PM  
jagec: cryinoutloud: I think we should take all the kids out and let them play in the woods for about 5 years, and teach them how to read and do basic stuff. But mostly we let them play in the woods. Then when they're about 14, we put them back in a real classroom and start talking to them like adults.

I guess I won't be getting that job as Secretary of Education anytime soon.

Naw, the solution is to stick 'em in a classroom at an earlier age so that they can get used to a structured environment. In fact, make school last longer, too. Maybe it should go Monday through Saturday. And no recess. The more structure they have in their lives, the better they'll perform. The problem is too many distractions. Remove all of the distractions, and the kids will be able to focus. For example, how many of you would stare out of the windows during school? Eliminate the windows, and you've already gotten that much more attention out of your students. Also, more standardized testing would ensure that they get the necessary practice to do well on their standardized tests. Plus, the teachers' unions would like it because it would make it that much easier to make sure that everyone follows the same lesson plan and no teacher looks worse by comparison. It's about equality, see.


Awesome!
 
2010-10-05 05:20:48 PM  
djh0101010 2010-10-05 05:03:58 PM
kiwimoogle84: No you're fine. :) I'm referring to parents who simply go well, let's drug the kid so he's easier to deal with. There was a news story about a little girl who had NO medical problems and the parents drugged her to get government money and killed her. That thing pisses me off to no end.

So, you're equating some psychopath of a parent who poisoned their child, with a parent of an ADHD kid using an effective treatment? No, I'm not sure we're fine here


No, wasn't equating. Simply saying that some parents see it as a first course of action without trying anything else first. And the story about the poor kid was more of a side note to more aptly demonstrate my main point. There are many shades of gray here. I believe too many parents simply look at drugs as being the answer without even trying anything else.

I do believe some kids need medication- I work at a pediatric therapy center- of course I see many children who need that kind of help. But it's like the south park episode- any kid who didn't want to do homework was dx'd with ADD and given ritalin.
 
2010-10-05 05:22:32 PM  
HeWhoHasNoName: Baroness: HeWhoHasNoName: There are lifestyle and social structuring methods that can help to a minor degree, and for very mild or minor cases that may be enough for some people.

Forced 8-hour study sessions in a bare room and severe discipline will not inhibit an excessive dopamine reuptake rate, and it will not prevent the psychiatric or behavioral effects that result from it. You cannot change neurology and neurochemistry with 'parenting' or 'trying harder'. The sooner you get past your belief in that ridiculous fallacy, the sooner people with real, significant conditions can actually start dealing with their challenges instead of your crap. What you're proposing has little more feasibility or scientific credibility behind it than epsom salt, and if you stopped to actually do some research, you'd realize it almost instantly - if your hubris didn't get in the way. The cognitive dissonance you're engaging in is on the same intellectual level as lunatic religious fundamentalists that froth at the mouth and deny the very concept of evolution as "a theory".


If a person's symptoms are severe enough, they are going to need medication to bring their symptoms under control to a point where lifestyle modification may actually do some good. If you are dealing with symptoms past a certain level of severity, all you are going to accomplish is to waste your time and frustrate the individual by demanding the impossible from them, and then punishing them when they are physically incapable of meeting your ignorant demands.


And I maintain that you're using the severe case as the norm. I work exclusively with children, and across the board they're on anywhere from one to fifteen different medications for problems as simple as ADD or ADHD. And since their parents are too stupid to send medications with them, the kids go anywhere from three to ten days without those meds. And you know what? Most of them function better by the time the chemicals are out of their systems, in a structured environment.

So I don't need any more research, thank you. I work with it every day. Your 15+ years of "dealing with it" is pretty much offset by my 30+ years of personal experience, combined with 10+ years in the field of juvenile practice. I can just as easily state that you're using your specific case as a benchmark, and over-complicating the problem.

I state again: More and more people who actually study the brain and its chemistry are stating that chemicals for kids are bad. They're throwing off the standard body's method of chemical growth, and giving them more and more mental issues, such as suicidal tendencies. I've had dozens of parents ask me to "please just give him whatever drugs will make him easier to deal with". More and more physicians, who have almost no background in these problems, are handing out pills because it's both what parents want and what the drug companies are paying them to do.

At no time did I state that the current school system was friendly toward ADHD. And I didn't say that "severe punishment" is the answer. You are spouting "standard" arguments that have been taught to you by rote as the means to winning your argument. Most likely until people get bored talking to you and give up.

Yes, around 20% of kids have a genetic disposition toward behavioral problems. That doesn't make it okay to assume that's standard. Most students have a behavioral problem that is made worse by horrible conditions, and then with no controls.

But here, let me be as condescending:

The sooner you realize that social solutions for social problems work, the sooner people with serious conditions will get the help they need instead of people wasting time with non-issues. Your arguments have all the same "religious" problems that mine do, which either: 1.) None what so ever, other than as your attempt to get people on your side by encouraging them to believe I must be a fundamentalist, or 2.) means you have religiously attached yourself to your theory and will only accept that theory as valid.
 
2010-10-05 05:30:21 PM  
I'd be interested to know if there really is a genetic link to ADD. My grandma has it (sorry less TV= no ADD theorists) and so do a couple of my aunts and so do I. Its pretty severe, but it often manifests itself differently in women. Your mind becomes a place where a radio is somehow on many channels at once and its incredibly hard to cut through the static to concentrate or complete a task. Or, if you find yourself unable to stop making grocery lists during good sex, you might have ADD.

I did great in school. My parents expected a lot of me and I was always on a tight leash. And 20 minutes after I start, I can sometimes finish writing a comment. ADD can be helped/overlooked by being naturally smart, or parented well etc. Sometimes you can even function well enough without meds for the most part. I can see why people would get depressed after dealing with a more serious case over time, though. Its exhausting.

The debate of this is moronic- some people have ADD, most don't and some who think they have it are really misdiagnosed by bad drs and incompetent parents. You can't beat or love it out of a kid or adult.
 
2010-10-05 05:34:56 PM  
Anything that makes one fall outside the accepted norm leads to depression, because of how the norm treats the abnormal.

My biggest problem with ADHD was being so completely bored in school hearing the same lesson being repeated time and time again so the normal students to understand it when I had it the first time if not ahead of time since I used to read my text box cover to cover within the first few months of the semester.

For the most part I wasn't running around the classroom out of control I was always getting in trouble for answer the students questions before the teacher and pointing out that so and so just asked that same question less then two minuets ago or reading another book aside from the book for that class.

ADHD is not always about undisciplined kids sometimes the frustration of waiting for others to catch up just becomes unbearable. Though for most with ADHD they can't super focus on and one thing unless it really interests them.

The way to fix the problem is to let them work out of workbooks at their pace with the promise that once they complete a set amount of work they can stop for the day. I had this system in 7th and 8th grade I was almost always done by noon and by the end I was working at the level of a second year collage student in everything but English for which I have always had trouble.
 
2010-10-05 05:47:04 PM  
Profedius: I had this system in 7th and 8th grade I was almost always done by noon and by the end I was working at the level of a second year collage student in everything but English for which I have always had trouble.

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2010-10-05 05:49:16 PM  
abb3w: And, yeah, healthy diet can help a lot on the ADHD front, but there's a lot less it can do on the depression side.

Exercise improves depressive disorders fairly consistently in study after study.
 
2010-10-05 05:49:48 PM  
"I state again: More and more people who actually study the brain and its chemistry are stating that chemicals for kids are bad."

Care to cite some peer-reviewed research?

"More and more physicians, who have almost no background in these problems, are handing out pills because it's both what parents want and what the drug companies are paying them to do."

I've heard the whole "the drug companies are paying them to do it" conspiracy trotted out endless times. I'm going to ask you for exactly the same thing I ask everybody who pulls that card:

Show me one shred of proof where numerous general practitioners or specialists are getting directly compensated by pharmaceutical companies for specific diagnoses and prescriptions.

You can't, because in the extremely rare cases where it does happen, those involved go to federal prison. The whole conspiracy theory you're invoking is heavily and very effectively policed against because it is massively illegal. The fact that doctors and drug company corporate suits haven't been getting routinely nailed for it over the last several decades kinds of undermines your assertion that it's a primary factor in the growing trend of ADHD diagnoses, doesn't it?

It couldn't possibly be a better understanding of the disorder that we've gained over the last 20 years, or maybe improved testing and diagnosis methods that are more sensitive? It's gotta be a massive illegal conspiracy that somehow never gets caught even though everybody knows about it. You just know it has to be those emotionless yet parent-appeasing pill-happy doctors. And right next to them are the greedy, money-grubbing corporations whose evil get-rich-quick plans apparently hinge on spending a lot in bribes so that they can sell large volumes of generic 50+ year old drug formulas that have a razor-thin profit margin, if any at all.

...Yeah, I suppose that makes about as much sense as most harebrained conspiracy theories.


ADHD is not simply a social problem. The fact that you're trying to dismiss it as one shows either a serious lack of actual knowledge about it, or a significant bias, or both. It is a neurological condition related to abnormalities in the actual physical structure and neurochemistry of the brain, and the results of those abnormalities in cognition, focus, memory, and behavior. Social solutions will not and physically CANNOT change that. Other people doing different things cannot possibly change the physical or chemical structure and function of the physical brain. Again, you are swearing up and down to a solution with as much logical or scientific credence as epsom salt and bloodletting.
 
2010-10-05 05:53:45 PM  
ThrobblefootSpectre: abb3w: And, yeah, healthy diet can help a lot on the ADHD front, but there's a lot less it can do on the depression side.

Exercise improves depressive disorders fairly consistently in study after study.


Consistent, sufficient endorphin release will do that. Part of why the infrequent cases of clinical (rather than environmental / situational) depression that you see in very active athletes are usually really bad.
 
2010-10-05 06:00:16 PM  
HeWhoHasNoName: Consistent, sufficient endorphin release will do that.


I think it's probably a lot more systemic (multi-variate) than a single cause-effect like endorphin release. Not to mention, most non-athlete's on a light exercise routine don't push the limit hard enough to get runner's high anyway.
 
2010-10-05 06:15:11 PM  
Here's my anecdote - I'm pretty sure I've told this before:

Doctor (to me): What is your name?
Me: (my name)
Him: What grade are you in?
Me: Third grade.
Him: I'm sorry, I don't believe you. Go send your parents in please?

I later would find out I was diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed Ritalin or something. I told my mom about the bizarre exchange with the doctor, and she never filled the prescription.

Also, I'm pretty sure I do have "ADHD," but it's caused by a more serious underlying condition of "not wanting to do work." Put me in front of Nazi Zombies and I can pay attention just fine.
 
2010-10-05 06:15:28 PM  
AshHousewares18: ackb4r: Smackledorfer: Anyone saying adhd doesn't exist might want to check last week's link about a genetic connection to adhd.

It certainly exists.

The knock is that its being over-diagnosed to every kid with minor behavioral problems because its easier to blame a disease than a parent.

Can this just be the final end do the debate?


Of course not.
 
2010-10-05 06:24:43 PM  
loving the 'beat it out of them' comments

didn't work for me
 
2010-10-05 06:32:48 PM  
The knock is that its being over-diagnosed to every kid with minor behavioral problems because its easier to blame a disease than a parent.

HALLELUJAH./big>b>

This is the point I've been trying to make all along!!!

...as you were.
 
2010-10-05 06:33:24 PM  
...pardon my previous formatting. I was passionate and rushed it.
 
2010-10-05 06:37:32 PM  
HeWhoHasNoName:
Care to cite some peer-reviewed research?

I've heard the whole "the drug companies are paying them to do it" conspiracy trotted out endless times. I'm going to ask you for exactly the same thing I ask everybody who pulls that card:

Show me one shred of proof where numerous general practitioners or specialists are getting directly compensated by pharmaceutical companies for specific diagnoses and prescriptions.

You can't, because in the extremely rare cases where it does happen, those involved go to federal prison. The whole conspiracy theory you're invoking is heavily and very effectively policed against because it is massively illegal. The fact that doctors and drug company corporate suits haven't been getting routinely nailed for it over the last several decades kinds of undermines your assertion that it's a primary factor in the growing trend of ADHD diagnoses, doesn't it?

It couldn't possibly be a better understanding of the disorder that we've gained over the last 20 years, or maybe improved testing and diagnosis methods that are more sensitive? It's gotta be a massive illegal conspiracy that somehow never gets caught even though everybody knows about it. You just know it has to be those emotionless yet parent-appeasing pill-happy doctors. And right next to them are the greedy, money-grubbing corporations whose evil get-rich-quick plans apparently hinge on spending a lot in bribes so that they can sell large volumes of generic 50+ year old drug formulas that have a razor-thin profit margin, if any at all.

...Yeah, I suppose that makes about as much sense as most harebrained conspiracy theories.


ADHD is not simply a social problem. The fact that you're trying to dismiss it as one shows either a serious lack of actual knowledge about it, or a significant bias, or both. It is a neurological condition related to abnormalities in the actual physical structure and neurochemistry of the brain, and the results of those abnormalities in cognition, focus, memory, and behavior. Social solutions will not and physically CANNOT change that. Other people doing different things cannot possibly change the physical or chemical structure and function of the physical brain. Again, you are swearing up and down to a solution with as much logical or scientific credence as epsom salt and bloodletting.


Wow... you really are a one-trick pony, eh? You pick one tiny perceived aspect of an argument and hammer it, hoping that if I acknowledge it as valid, it wins your core argument. And then again bring up epsom salts... were you force-fed them as a child? But I'll bite:

No, there is no money exchange. However, knowing drug representatives myself, they do in fact go to doctor's offices, and drop hundreds of dollars on food, drink, gift certificates, office supplies, and other items that skirt the edges of the law. I find it pretty suspect when the doctor that attempts to diagnose me as adult ADHD is doing so with a clipboard in her hand given out by a drug company, with a drug company pen, with nurses talking about the six-foot sub in the break room. It is not a conspiracy, it's gray law.

You are, again, attempting to question my mental and psychological state instead of accepting my statements as possibly valid. These are not "hare-brained" statements. I am not over-blowing an issue, and you are using hyperbolic statements and phrases to ensure that I sound as much as a lunatic as possible. Grow up.

However, it doesn't undermine anything. You also ignored the second statement: Parents want their kids to have diseases. Anything to both redirect the blame from themselves and make their lives easier. I have spoken to parents and kids both that have been to multiple doctors until they found the one that would finally listen to the parents and give them the pills. And these were without psychological work.

I ask the question three times a week, for Siva's sake: "Is your child on any medications?" "Yes, Ritalin." "Has she ever been seen by a psychologist or had psychiatric testing?" "Oh, no, she doesn't need that kind of help." "Then who gave you the prescription?" "Oh, our family doctor, I told him we needed it, and he wrote it." That's not just a story, boyo, that's an almost verbatim conversation. Multiple times a week.

Between the two: ADHD is overdiagnosed by drug-company fueled doctors and parents that believe the internet. The most common form of ADHD is non-genetic, non-chemical. It is a social disorder caused by a combination of bad parenting, overstimulation, and a lack of strong control.

To reiterate: I did not say ADHD was a purely social issue. I in fact conceded that perhaps 20% of the cases I've personally dealt with were legitimate. However, I also know for a fact, and studies, and evidence, and my own work, that the overwhelming majority of these diagnoses are false. In most of these cases, the social fix will cure the social problem.

Finally, your constant requests for research are misplaced. You have entered this argument with nothing but personal evidence, and that's even less valid than my actual experience with juveniles with ADHD. Since we're basing all of this from solely an anecdotal evidence, I maintain my ten years of interviews, psychological testing and profiles, working with juveniles both on these drugs and coming off them, working with various psychologists... versus you "living with the problem".

Changing your thought process, such as concentration, will alter your brain chemistry. We've proven that we can get people drunk off water, release endorphins through perceived chocolate, and that anger's chemical responses can be triggered by social situations.

Sinking again to your level, although without the text size change, because it's just too obnoxious to read: You are too attached to your argument. You are responding with the same statements and fervor that I would expect from: a mother yelling at people that she can't be blamed for her child's behavior because he's autistic; a gay man who has already been accepted by his peers but continues to state it's genetic and not his fault; an atheist who doesn't want people to comfort him because they're religious, and then wonders why no one cares. Did I cover everything?
 
2010-10-05 06:39:38 PM  
kiwimoogle84: ...pardon my previous formatting. I was passionate and rushed it.

I will attempt to be slightly less verbose and simple point at your statements and the quoted one over and over again from now on.
 
2010-10-05 06:43:25 PM  
STFU. I would gladly take a large dose of Adderall every day in exchange for pretending my short attention span is a medical condidtion. Also, your taste in "music" sucks and pictures of your current haircut will make you REALLY depressed in 10 years.

/lawn, off of it
//Nelson-style HAHA
 
2010-10-05 06:45:21 PM  
kiwimoogle84: See, this is why my mother is my hero.

I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was a kid because I was squirly and didn't want to do homework or sit still.

*crickets*

Anyone know a kid like that? Jeez.

Anyway Doc said "stuff her face full of Ritalin."

Mom said, "Go fark yourself, I'm limiting her sugar intake."

Now at 26, I've never been on a medication in my life and I'm college educated without a lick of trouble. Go screw yourself, drug-happy moms and dads who would rather medicate rather than be a good parent.

/also got teh spankings when acting up
//mom's my hero


Why the fark would your mom take you to a psychiatrist for a diagnosis if she wasn't interested in a diagnosis?
 
2010-10-05 06:46:19 PM  
Baroness:

TL;DR
 
2010-10-05 06:47:35 PM  
Baroness 2010-10-05 06:39:38 PM
kiwimoogle84: ...pardon my previous formatting. I was passionate and rushed it.

I will attempt to be slightly less verbose and simple point at your statements and the quoted one over and over again from now on.


I feel like I accomplished something today. What that is, I'm not quite sure, but I'll take the warm fuzzy feelings regardless.
 
2010-10-05 06:49:49 PM  
TheRaven7:

Why the fark would your mom take you to a psychiatrist for a diagnosis if she wasn't interested in a diagnosis?


She was doin' the shrink.
 
2010-10-05 06:55:48 PM  
TheRaven7 2010-10-05 06:45:21 PM
kiwimoogle84: See, this is why my mother is my hero.

I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was a kid because I was squirly and didn't want to do homework or sit still.

*crickets*

Anyone know a kid like that? Jeez.

Anyway Doc said "stuff her face full of Ritalin."

Mom said, "Go fark yourself, I'm limiting her sugar intake."

Now at 26, I've never been on a medication in my life and I'm college educated without a lick of trouble. Go screw yourself, drug-happy moms and dads who would rather medicate rather than be a good parent.

/also got teh spankings when acting up
//mom's my hero

Why the fark would your mom take you to a psychiatrist for a diagnosis if she wasn't interested in a diagnosis?


I was seeing a shrink for counseling actually- I started acting up when my parents divorced and the therapist said ADHD was to blame. I'm pretty sure I just got pissed off and distracted because my mom was never around- had to work two jobs to keep myself and my sisters in shoes that fit and such. My mom basically told the shrink that whether I had ADHD or not, she was gonna try home remedies and diet transitions before resorting to drugs.

/don't mind you asking. :)
// and hey loki see loki do- the shrink was a lady twice my mom's age- no thanks.
 
UXB
2010-10-05 07:00:05 PM  
I'm getting a kick out of these replies, being a parent of a child who has been diagnosed with ADHD....

Actually, it's been the most frustrating experience of my life so far and the fact that he is only 9 and already a moody teenager does not bode well. Not complaining really, I signed on for kids, so deal. Seeing this article hit home, because I see the tendencies in him that I see leading to depression and god forbid suicide. It's been something that's been on my mind and something I've told myself that I should keep an eye out for as he gets older. I don't know exactly how these things work exactly, but see the roadwork being laid out before me.

Hearing the replies about doing this and doing that to deal with an ADHD kid is funny, because unless you got one you can't relate. My son has no impulse control, the kid couldn't sit still to save his life, seriously, so telling him to sit still is not reality. His attention span is almost nil, so as you can imagine or maybe you can't until you have kids, it's a constant frustration to deal with. Mind you, the kid is in the Gate program and has already achieved the highest reading achievement in school, only a couple months into the year(actually have to tell the kid to put the F-N book down alot), so it's not about smarts exactly. When he was put into gate, I actually asked "How'd that happen" because I couldn't fathom him taking a test and being able to get through it.

Anyway.

T.
 
2010-10-05 07:10:44 PM  
The best part about the situation is that so many of my fellow students have managed to be diagnosed with ADD that I consciously try to hide the fact. It's absolutely lovely having to listen to every coont in the place yammer on about "omg im so add"

Kind of the funny part about ADD, while there are much worse fates out there, people afflicted with ADD are sooner to have someone go out of their way to kick them down a flight of stairs than to help them.
 
2010-10-05 07:42:56 PM  
Baroness: The most common form of ADHD is non-genetic, non-chemical. It is a social disorder caused by a combination of bad parenting, overstimulation, and a lack of strong control.

There is no entry in the DSMV for a purely "social disorder" form of ADHD - which by its very definition involves neurological and neurochemical abnormalities - and I have never heard of research or studies that have suggested or attempted to claim the existence of your proposed "social ADHD". Furthermore, after some brief research and a quick call to a nationally-published behaviorologist, I could find no evidence of such a "social" ADHD disorder or credible research suggesting one.

You are repeatedly, consistently, and ardently claiming the widespread existence (and culpability) of something that by its very definition does not exist. Inherently neurophysiological conditions cannot be socially acquired. Period. Either you are discussing and dealing with something other than ADHD and failing to refer to it with the correct name, or you are intent on trying to deliberately marginalize what you are quantifying as the vast majority of ADHD cases (80%, by your figures) as something they simply are not, no matter how much you would like for them to be.

This statement - "working with juveniles both on these drugs and coming off them" - gives me suspicions that you work as some sort of behavioral counselor or youth counselor, with an emphasis on moving kids off of medications or substances. If that's the case, you need to clearly acknowledge your bias in this argument before you can regain any credibility.

I'm open about my bias. I've fought tooth and nail for 15 years, every day, not just against people like you that are convinced I'm not one of your magical "20%" and that a bit more harsh treatment and imposed suffering would cure me, but also against huge swaths of gullible fools that listen to antipsychologists and antipharmacologists and take their word as unquestionable gospel... only to turn around and inflict that stupidity on me. The very act of allowing your very public, very officious (yet unsupported and devoid of credibility) claims, without calling them for what they are, makes my everyday life that much harder and casts me just a little more as a liar in the eyes of most people I meet. I frankly have no tolerance for that.

I am very upfront that I have little patience for people who run around without being sufficiently and accurately informed, spouting their mouth off and declaring that the whole ADHD thing is just "made up" or a "social disorder" except for a few really bad cases that you never actually run into. You're the first person I've encountered that can even remotely claim to have any sort of relevant experience at all, and that scares me even more because I would expect someone with such a background to properly educate and inform themselves with current research and theory, which you don't remotely appear to have done - content to live in your own little "80% of it is some social disorder I've invented" world.

I can post not only my ICD9 code and my own first-hand experiences - even though you're eager to write them off as 'anecdotes', whereas proper research treats primary sources with high value - but brain scans from NIMH, brain scans from Brookhaven Nat'l Laboratories, double blind studies from Johns Hopkins, long-term tracking studies from a variety of respected sources... veritable mountains of objective, peer-reviewed research establishing a clear physiological basis for this disorder - even accounts of individuals with such behavioral characteristics described by Hippocrates more than 3,000 years ago.

So if you want to apply your standard of evidence evenly, the only thing you have refuted all of that with is to call me "too attached to my argument" and offer your own anecdotes in rebuttal. If we discard both of those, your anecdotes - and mine - are gone... leaving my mountain of objective evidence, starting most recently with a genetic marker study in the Lancet, that very clearly demonstrates a physiological disorder with a physiological basis. Versus nothing to support your fantasy of some widespread "social disorder" that requires both a vast conspiracy and amazingly widespread physician negligence just to exist, and then functions purely as a scapegoat for bad parenting.

Now, if you want to actually present some hard data from your alleged experience which illustrates your magic 80% figure, one that was somehow even more magically solved with "social treatment" - "treatment" that is completely incapable of producing a physiological effect on the very clearly physiological basis of the disorder - well, be my guest. If you start quoting or citing Peter Bregg!n (amusingly, Fark won't allow you to spell his name correctly...), then I'll have proof of what I already suspect.
 
2010-10-05 07:56:30 PM  
Also, Baroness for point of reference... Remember the big "Anti-Ritalin" lawsuit flurry back in 2000 which Bregg!n championed (even though he exaggerated how many he was even involved in)? The ones that alleged exactly the same doctor-drug company conspiracy you're claiming?

They were all thrown out post-haste without ever going to trial, the first of them the instant it hit the bench, via an Anti-SLAPP motion. What does that mean? It means that hundreds of lawyers with subpoena powers couldn't find even the tiniest shred of evidence to support their (your) allegations, and when their unsupported claims were laid out against actual, factual support, the bullshiat was so blatantly obvious to even the uninformed - in this case, several judges, who did not have psychiatric backgrounds - that the lawsuits were thrown out as SLAPPs; they weren't just baseless, they were clearly malicious.

But I'm sure if I started dredging up all the evidence of the various plantiff groups' connections to people like Bregg!n, John Travolta, Tom Cruise, and the Church of Scientology, you'd call me a conspiracy theorist... so I'll just let you dig through the records of the California State court system and discover that damning evidence yourself.
 
2010-10-05 08:28:33 PM  
Well the people in this thread seem way more legit than the AMA. Since my kid was diagnosed by some quack who did his PhD in ADHD in children, could someone point me to some good Scientology courses to get him the help he needs? Sounds a lot more promising than listening to his pediatrician and clinical psychologist.
 
2010-10-05 08:29:48 PM  
RocketRod: I wonder how many ADHD cases we'd have if parents weren't so afraid to beat the crap outta their bratty-ass kids at an early age?

None. My fiance's son is ADHD. His dad has to keep him medicated heavily but when the kid is with us, no meds are necessary. It's amazing what a little discipline and not putting up with the bullshiat can do.
 
2010-10-05 08:37:36 PM  
Smeggy Smurf: RocketRod: I wonder how many ADHD cases we'd have if parents weren't so afraid to beat the crap outta their bratty-ass kids at an early age?

None. My fiance's son is ADHD. His dad has to keep him medicated heavily but when the kid is with us, no meds are necessary. It's amazing what a little discipline and not putting up with the bullshiat can do.


And how much academic studying does he get done when he's at your place?

How much does he actually process and retain if you just hold his nose down to the book?
 
2010-10-05 08:44:20 PM  
HeWhoHasNoName: Smeggy Smurf: RocketRod: I wonder how many ADHD cases we'd have if parents weren't so afraid to beat the crap outta their bratty-ass kids at an early age?

None. My fiance's son is ADHD. His dad has to keep him medicated heavily but when the kid is with us, no meds are necessary. It's amazing what a little discipline and not putting up with the bullshiat can do.

And how much academic studying does he get done when he's at your place?

How much does he actually process and retain if you just hold his nose down to the book?


Are you implying that you would rather take advice from professionals than anonymous people on the Internet? Isn't that a bit elitist?
 
2010-10-05 09:11:10 PM  
MSFT: HeWhoHasNoName: Smeggy Smurf: RocketRod: I wonder how many ADHD cases we'd have if parents weren't so afraid to beat the crap outta their bratty-ass kids at an early age?

None. My fiance's son is ADHD. His dad has to keep him medicated heavily but when the kid is with us, no meds are necessary. It's amazing what a little discipline and not putting up with the bullshiat can do.

And how much academic studying does he get done when he's at your place?

How much does he actually process and retain if you just hold his nose down to the book?

Are you implying that you would rather take advice from professionals than anonymous people on the Internet? Isn't that a bit elitist?


...wha? I'm pointing out their perspective is skewed because they're not seeing the kid in situations where his disability is a serious problem.

ADHD kids aren't going to have a lot of problems while they're over at a relative's house to play and have fun. The biggest problems are in academic / job settings, where they have to focus and process on uninteresting subjects for significant lengths of time. Unless that kind of thing is common when the kid visits, of course they're not going to seem like they have any problems. That's like saying somebody with Parkinson's suddenly doesn't have Parkinson's when they jack into the Matrix.
 
2010-10-05 09:14:46 PM  
Briggen
 
2010-10-05 09:15:21 PM  
Breggin
 
2010-10-05 09:18:19 PM  
Dang it. I can't find my ADHD rant to copy pasta.
 
2010-10-05 10:58:15 PM  
ThrobblefootSpectre: Exercise improves depressive disorders fairly consistently in study after study.

True. Not always sufficient to avoid medication, though; especially for ADHD mix where the kid is already tending to be, er... active-plus.

HeWhoHasNoName: Consistent, sufficient endorphin release will do that.

For example, getting laid regularly seems to do a fair bit of good....
 
2010-10-05 11:07:00 PM  
HeWhoHasNoName

Thank you, you are my new hero. I came here to fight the good fight, only to see that you have not only held the line, but done so heroically.

I have had ADD all my life, but did not know it tell I was 34. It has ruined my life up to the point I got on medication. No amount of beatings, rules, expectations, rewards or punishments ever made a dent in it. What all of those and ADD did do to me was.
Ruined my relationship with all of my family. They all hate me.
Ruined my chance to goto college
Ruined my marriage.
Made me homeless several times.
Lost me every job I have ever had.
Cost me most of my friends.
Made me hate myself.
Ruined my health.
Almost killed me. Not just almost die, but almost die screaming.

It was as I was recovering from the almost died part that I figured out I had ADD. I brought my finding to my doctor. Got on the correct Medication. Twenty minutes after my first dose I fell to my knees and cried, as the long laundry list of things I have always hated about myself went away. 34 years of trying to understand myself and failing to change the things I hated about me finally made sense.

HeWhoHasNoName

Thank You.


---The Dead Guy
 
2010-10-05 11:46:04 PM  
Glad I could be some help, C_C. It's taken me fifteen years of blood and sweat and tears to get where I am - I can't imagine trying to sort it all out in 20 minutes.

One thing I would caution you about is that, at least in my experience, the meds aren't a perfect solution. They fix some problems and give you others that you probably won't like but will accept because of the relief they give you from larger ones. One thing that has driven me to tears more than once is that I have pieced together a pretty good idea of what it must like to be "normal", some of it while I'm on my meds and some of it while I'm not... But I can never have all the pieces at the same time. Think of the meds as a toolbox instead of a cure, because they definitely aren't a cure.

Also, protip: if you don't have a smartphone or an iphone or something you can program lots of different reminders into, GET ONE. IT'S WORTH ITS WEIGHT IN GOLD FOR US! It'll nag you to do stuff and remember things so other people won't have to, and it's so easy and quick to get to that it slips right past the "don't want to spend the time" barrier.

Feel free to email me at hwhnn at hotmail.com if you just want to talk. I always make time to keep in touch with fellow ADDers.
 
2010-10-06 01:07:51 AM  
kiwimoogle84
Mom said, "Go fark yourself, I'm limiting her sugar intake."


doesn't work
 
2010-10-06 02:27:45 AM  
Pardon the TL;DR. I was a major ADHD skeptic until I was diagnosed and a doctor explained that the particular ball of erratic, irritating sometimes-genius-sometimes-moron that was me was what ADHD meant.

Stay with me, but I've met a lot of people that called themselves aspies, then I met a real diagnosed aspie. It was a pretty big difference. The self-diagnosers might have been on the mild side of the spectrum, but the diagnosed kid was...different.

It works the same way for ADHD, and most people only think of the mild ones when they criticize. It's a spectrum disorder, and (muddying the waters) a -potentially- maladaptive trait that leads to the disorder. It's not really a defect, like some people (even ADHDers) tell you. It's just a different setup of brain function and priority, more about the "NOW" than the "THEN" or "LATER". In a lot of contexts, that makes you suck at life. Then it's a disorder. In some, it makes you better or just different. Then it's a trait or a gift.

That's the other problem: we all know people who are total spacecases, but succeed. They're not maladapted. Some of us are stuck in school or jobs or whatever that we can't reasonably just change. We're maladapted.

So, as an adult ADHDer, here are some of my comments:

I don't think TV, electronics, etc. fundamentally lead to ADHD. I think ADHD people gravitate to those things because they're highly stimulatory. The habits built that way can reinforce the symptoms though.

I think sugar and the tendency towards drug abuse are similar. ADHDer seek them out because they're either stimulating or calming, one of which scratches the itch and the other of which gets rid of it. Again, this can be self-reinforcing.

Medication helps. You consider your actions more when you use it, and it's easier to stay interested in (and thus focused on) things. It doesn't somehow make you non-ADHD; it's just that the basic effects of the drug that most anyone would feel happen to override some ADHD symptoms. I don't really believe in "paradoxical effect" (stimulant for neurotypical, depressant for ADHD) per se. I think a small dose of speed will do the same for anyone. ADHDers can (and perhaps must) use larger doses because they're coming from a negative compared to a neurotypical.

Good parenting can help; ADHDers need boundaries enforced upon them sometimes. Also, there are constructive ways to channel ADHD and destructive ways to channel ADHD. Good parenting can teach good strategies. However, such good parenting -MUST- be appropriate to the child, which means taking into account the ADHD. You can't drum a complicated, tedious strategy into an ADHDers head by force. They'll eventually find a way to abandon it.

I fully believe it leads to depression. A lot of people think you're a lazy or irresponsible dirtbag when you have ADHD, and social engagement can be damned difficult when you don't understand what's going on half the time.

There's no magic wand. Most of the succesful strategies involve simplifying your environment as much as possible to lower the challenge level, religiously using helper tools like PDAs or calendars, getting people to send you stuff in writing, and picking a job you find highly stimulating. None of these involve you changing you; they involve you changing your environment until you're no longer maladaptive.

ADHD does most definitely exist. It'd be a little easier to live with it if people recognized that, and didn't keep saying you weren't trying.
 
2010-10-06 03:52:51 AM  
To those of you out there who have the diagnosis. You might want to see this. Is Good information if nothing else.
Vyvanse: How it works (new window)


---The Dead Guy
 
2010-10-06 06:23:07 AM  
Well, luckily, there is a lot of scientific evidence that ADHD is falsely diagnosed over and over and doesn't actually exist.

Oh, wait, it seems that the scientific evidence supports that it exists and many people who have it never get the diagnosis.

Look, I grew up with strict parents and teachers, well before ADHD became even an acceptable diagnosis for girls. It. Farking. Exists.

And I've had more than enough of you assholes telling me that I had a hard time in school and socially and everywhere else in my life because I was a brat and my parents were lenient. I was farking miserable and doing my damnedest to do well and my parents were almost certainly stricter and more prone to punishment than yours and all that gave me was a certainty that I was completely worthless. Thanks for that.

More thanks for Ritalin and help in learning how to deal with my weird brain.
 
2010-10-06 10:41:17 AM  
Verlorenes Metallgeld 2010-10-06 01:07:51 AM
kiwimoogle84
Mom said, "Go fark yourself, I'm limiting her sugar intake."

doesn't work


Well, I guess you must be right, since all children are exactly alike... Wow. You sure told me. How could I have been deluded all these years into thinking I was a normal human being after much dedication? Shall I go fill that Ritalin prescription now?

It worked for me. My mom changed my diet all around and I calmed down a lot. That, and a little tutoring help from my teacher aunt after school to get me to concentrate and actually learn.

/not sure why still posting in this thread
//I guess I'm here for entertainment value
 
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