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(Yahoo)   In case you only get your news from Fark, Michigan has been rioting for two days   (story.news.yahoo.com) divider line 593
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22433 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jun 2003 at 1:53 PM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-06-19 03:44:50 PM
Frustration and fear? "It's what people know about themselves inside that makes them afraid." - High Plains Drifter, baby. Draw your own conclusions.
 
2003-06-19 03:44:54 PM
Weemill:

fine, the riots dont have a negative effect. i dont buy that. but fine. are you saying there is nothing positive these people can do? I refuse to believe that people cant make there situation better, or that rioting is anyones best option, or even a viable option.
 
2003-06-19 03:45:23 PM
Oh my God! There is rioting in Michigan!?
 
2003-06-19 03:45:48 PM
Mccallcl

I'm sorry if i spelled your name wrong, but i wanted to respond to more than just your post. Thanks for your understanding!
 
2003-06-19 03:46:01 PM
Crazyjim

The armed forces is one of the largest employers that there is. The Armed Forces do good - teach people respect and discipline, provide valuable job training, and spur the economy not only by the salaries that they pay to their workers, but also to the companies whose products they consume.

If I even got a hint that my congressmen and senators were even considering starting FDR-style work programs, I would never CONSIDER voting for them ever again.
 
2003-06-19 03:46:02 PM
Show poor children what they can live up to, and let it be something other than michael jordan or Emmitt Smith.

Or Bird Man from Clipse. Were I black, I would initiate a boycott of all music glorifying the sale of cocaine.
 
2003-06-19 03:46:13 PM

I hate racists! Can't we all just get along?

\straight to the flames of hell.....

 
2003-06-19 03:46:25 PM
Instead of spending mad amounts of money into the Armed Forces, the government should have federal work programs ALA FDR. Federal work programs do good, teach people skills, and spur the economy. One reason the government doesn't like FDR style work programs is that it takes away from the army.

FDR was a terrible president Federal work programs do nothing accept steal money from hard working people.
 
2003-06-19 03:46:30 PM

At the risk of actually trying to bring some rational thought to this thread, let me theorize on riots:



Most of the riots in American history have been started small minority of disenfranchised people who are living in poverty. Often times these people live in sub-standard, public housing and have watched their neighborhoods become invaded by outside interests who take advantage of their relative captivity (business owner' price-gouging, etc.). While most poor people are honest, decent folks, there is always a small group of troublemakers in any neighborhood who sometimes feel a deep resentment and self-hate and find no other recourse than to turn these feelings outward toward their perceived oppressors.


There is oftentimes an incident which ignites the tension permeating the area, resulting in an explosion of anger. This will lead to a mob mentality that oftentimes results in people who feel oppressed (whether real oppression or not, it's perceived as such and perception is everything) rising up and becoming savage. As more violence breaks out, people take advantage of this chaos to serve their own needs by robbing stores and "getting their piece of the pie" that many feel is owed them. Since the businesses and housing is oftentimes owned by outsiders, it's not their stuff they are destroying so it makes it easier to justify stealing and ruining property.


In the short run riots are devastating and negative but they have, and will continue to, lead to positive change. Sometimes revolution is the only way to enact change. Our fore fathers caused public disturbance in Boston 200+ years ago and look where it got them.


Sorry for the essay (I meant to make it shorter but I'm a long-winded mick), and for the record, you will note that my theory is based on economics and not race.

 
2003-06-19 03:46:44 PM
Sometimes the only way to change a system is from the inside. More black people should start joining the policeforce in Michigan, then they can make positive changes in their communities.

JMHO
 
2003-06-19 03:47:06 PM
06-19-03 02:45:42 PM Clevershark
The only surprised was the absence of the obligatory "he went to church regularly" reference about the dead man, given that this was reported in the US. As though that means a farking thing...


yep. I totally agree. Same with all of the prisoners who have "found God". Like I'm going to trust what a convicted criminal says. Same when they ALL say they are innocent. UNLIKELY.
 
2003-06-19 03:47:07 PM
06-19-03 03:22:18 PM Stoke

Nice generalization, you know better than that. Even your statement "white cops + black suspect = fun with nightsticks" is racist towards whites.


Racist? Are you going to sit there and say white cops do not use more violence than necessary to black people?


Racism is so wide spread we must have affirmative action to counter-act it! The ruling was racist! you should expect the riots downtown erupting in the streets! So what if your shop got burned to ground, the cops are all racist pigs!


Not all cops are racist pigs, but many of them are.


Big Al, STFU on this one and go away... thanks!


Who the fvck are you to tell me what to do?


The pigs were right on this one and you know it.


I never said the pigs were wrong, I also never said the guy wasn't an idiot and the people rioting had a valid reason. I said racism is still a major part of life in America and people refuse to believe it.
 
2003-06-19 03:47:37 PM
Leeds -

While this MIGHT not have happened if the police weren't pursuing him, he still made the choice to flee the police and drive his bike like an idiot. No one made him do it. He had a choice to stop.
 
2003-06-19 03:47:49 PM
Now you try to take responsibility for the actions of your parents,grandparents and probably you

weemill
, sorry but that is just stupid. why dont you take responsibility for my grandparents and parents? (even though i dont know what they did). You had just as much say so over there actions as I did.
 
2003-06-19 03:47:50 PM
Presumption is the problem, people, not only on this thread but also in the streets presume way too much.
 
2003-06-19 03:48:10 PM
06-19-03 03:46:44 PM 420_Yo

Sometimes the only way to change a system is from the inside. More black people should start joining the policeforce in Michigan, then they can make positive changes in their communities.


So they can be part of the system that regularly discriminates against them? So they can be regular beat cops while never seeing any sort of promotion?
 
2003-06-19 03:49:07 PM
Caboozy:

I think Burn98 has a lot to learn about domestic violence too...


There are not many male victims of domestic violence, but I happen to be one of them. I had a girlfriend break my nose. She had a heavy purse on a long strap that she swung on an overhead arch. If it had not been dark I might have seen it and dodged it. Another time she came at me from behind with a 12 inch cast iron fry pan. Boy am I glad I happened to turn to the side and saw it coming! There are a number of other events. I will skip those. I had been raised to believe that you never hit a woman no matter what. I wrestled her to the ground a few times but I never did hit her.

Being a male victim of domestic violence is (usually) different then being a female victim in one critical way. I did not live in fear. Although I was injured a few time I always knew that since I as a man and 100 lbs heavier then she, if worst came to worst I was not going to lose.

The closest I ever came to hitting a woman was another girlfriend who had a history of being abused. She had a way of pushing my buttons. To this day I can not explain what it was about her that could make me so mad.
 
2003-06-19 03:49:21 PM
RightWingConspiracy

I bet your mother would be very proud of you right now. As well as any females that probably not in your life.
 
2003-06-19 03:49:57 PM
06-19-03 03:44:54 PM Vroomazoom

Weemill:

fine, the riots dont have a negative effect. i dont buy that. but fine. are you saying there is nothing positive these people can do? I refuse to believe that people cant make there situation better, or that rioting is anyones best option, or even a viable option.


They do have a negative effect. but the true negative effect is the racism that they're surrounded with, the negative roles black get on TV, the lack of positive (or otherwise mindless) black programming, and the views of blacks in the media and by the white majority as well. I don't know this particular area in particular, but i've lived in some really bad neighborhoods.....I've seen the cops pull people over 'just because' or that they 'fit the description.' You haven't seen what I have, and you don't understand what racism is, and what it does to people.

The comparison to a battered wife is very appropriate, and in this case, there's no way to get from the batterer.
 
2003-06-19 03:50:14 PM
06-19-03 03:44:54 PM Vroomazoom

Weemill:

fine, the riots dont have a negative effect. i dont buy that. but fine. are you saying there is nothing positive these people can do? I refuse to believe that people cant make there situation better, or that rioting is anyones best option, or even a viable option.


Rioting brings attention to your city. The federal government stepped in and watched over the Cincinnati police and the LAPD after riots in their respective cities, and most police forces cleaned up their act.
 
2003-06-19 03:50:27 PM
Weemill:

"Now you try to take responsibility for the actions of your parents,grandparents and probably you, and improve education in poor black neighborhoods, keep affrimative action in place, and give minorities a reason to strive for more. "

WHY? My parents grew up in SW Chicago. They eloped right after highschool and were disowned by their parents. They lived in a housing project that was 85% black. They went out and got 2 jobs each, busted their butts. One of their jobs was "product testing", which meant getting shampoo in their eyes and reporting how bad it stings. They kept working when my brother was born 1.5 years later, and when I was born another year after that. It took them 4 years to move out, but they did.

They did that with NO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, NOTHING to help them for "being white". They took crap jobs and busted their butts. Why should someone who is black get special help if they are poor, but poor white people have to make it on my own?

If I was black I'd be SO INSULTED by affirmative action. It's like a golf handicap: "You cannot make it on your own, so I'll lower the standards for you to help you out". Want EQUALITY? Then try being equal for a change. Until you want to be treated as EQUALS you'll never be seen as equals.
 
2003-06-19 03:50:32 PM
06-19-03 03:46:44 PM 420_Yo
Sometimes the only way to change a system is from the inside. More black people should start joining the policeforce in Michigan, then they can make positive changes in their communities.

I agree, but unfortunately, and ironically, there are alot of police that are black that have racial biases, from their conditioning with racial stereotypes as well...

I guess they would be called Uncle Toms, or house "n...gas"...
 
2003-06-19 03:50:58 PM
It is pretty obvious that the motorcycle crash was just the straw that broke the camel's back. This has been true of most every class riot throughout the history of governed peoples. The have nots will eventually boil over and riot. It is not just "black" people. White people in Europe did it too, against other white people. People in many countries all over the world still do it today. Heck, our own riots in colonial America were against the also white British. The Boston Massacre, for one, was provoked by the colonists and then made into sensational fodder for rallying up the seething anger so many already felt. Very likely, a much different tale than some kid speeding out of control and crashing was fed to some of these people; any of you ever play the game 'telephone'? The mob is scary indeed.

Now, if someone could just explain the stupid sports riots to me, that would be great. I never understood why someone would set fire to a dumpster or destroy another fan's parked car over a game -- especially when their team won! WTF?!?
 
2003-06-19 03:51:43 PM
Big_Al, yes, and the more of them there are, the harder they will be to ignore.
 
2003-06-19 03:52:01 PM
"Eatham,

The armed forces is one of the largest employers that there is. The Armed Forces do good - teach people respect and discipline, provide valuable job training, and spur the economy not only by the salaries that they pay to their workers, but also to the companies whose products they consume."

The Armed Forces is good for defense, but when its used as a tool for economic gain, it becomes evil.

Some men who have no options left in life don't want to kill, but have no option but to join the army.

This is where I am different than you. I know how to judge a man by love, you judge men by money.
 
2003-06-19 03:52:17 PM
I live in St. Joseph, across the river from Benton Harbor. Where to begin...

- There is a Martin Luther King Drive, but it is just outside the city limits. Although the area isn't very good, it isn't quite the worst part of time.

- I went boating Tuesday night. We launched my friend's boat from the Benton Harbor side of the river. When we got back at 10 o'clock, my friend's truck and trailer was blocked in by a fire truck. The fire and police departments were using the parking lot as one of their command centers. The fire truck that was blocking us in had been shot at by a rioter. The firemen were examining the passenger side of the truck, which had been hit by gunfire from a sawed-off shotgun. Eventually, another officer moved her car, and we were able to move the trailer, get the boat, and get the hell out of there. We were about 3/4 mile from the riot.

- Shurn was already exceeding 100 MPH well outside of Benton Harbor when he was first spotted by police. A chase ensued, but was called off. The Benton Township police officer resumed the chase.

- Not all of the burnt buildings were abandoned. Some were currently occupied.

- Here's a link to a NY Times article. A web address, I should say... I don't have any linking skillz.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/19/national/19MICH.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5062&en =0bf20be2f78c2b23&ex=1056600000&partner=GOOGLE

Ugh... destroying your own city... what purpose does that serve?
 
2003-06-19 03:52:40 PM
"getting their piece of the pie" that many feel is owed them



I'm sorry. I'm going now.
 
2003-06-19 03:52:41 PM
Let's just talk about reparations instead.
 
2003-06-19 03:53:16 PM
"and until we all boink (yes, i said boink) each other grey, they won't be."

Well said. My familly is a mix of many different races. People that were not afraid to mix it up a bit. But I think its a two way street. I cant wait untill there is no more color differences. But I dont think that will stop the fighting. There will always be something.
 
2003-06-19 03:53:18 PM
here are 4 definitions of "responsible". I dont think that anything my grandparents did I am "responible" for. I refuse to take responibility for anyones actions other than my own. You cannot ask someone to take responsibility for what they are not responsible for.

1. Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.
2. Involving personal accountability or ability to act without guidance or superior authority
3. Being a source or cause.
4. Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior.
 
2003-06-19 03:53:36 PM
Lovegravy is my hero
 
2003-06-19 03:54:32 PM
Worst part of town, not time. I'm an idiot.
 
2003-06-19 03:55:24 PM
I just called Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They said they'll be right over....
 
2003-06-19 03:55:36 PM
LOVEGRAVY,

Maybe we Cincinnatians can send them the C.A.N. committee on racial harmony to clear things up. /heavy sarcasm

I was living in the city when the Cinti riots were going on - I lived in a very diverse neighborhood (black, white, straight, gay, etc) and we all sat out on our porches at night during the curfew. Best sleeping I ever had in that house with the quiet streets.
 
2003-06-19 03:55:37 PM
I say let them burn their farking part of the city down, the government can then move in and pave over the charred remains and sell it to walmart for a superstore! Or the police could shoot anyone in the head who's on the street. Sup to you....
 
2003-06-19 03:56:14 PM
Play that car Therealscrodd! Let us know that we are all wasting our time on a pointless argument. There is just no possiblility that anyone will learn anything form any of this is there? BTW Why are you reading this thread?
 
2003-06-19 03:56:14 PM
06-19-03 03:35:15 PM Lovegravy

Until you can take responsibility (feel free to use dictionary.com to look that word up if you haven't heard it before) for your own actions, no amount of help is going to change anything.


The only people who never take responsibility for their own actions is the white upper class. They have been making sure the system in place keeps people below them, except for a small percentage who actually become wealthy.

Then they have morons like yourself who say Affirmitive Action is really racism, and blacks "honestly" have a fair road to travel to sucess.

People like yourself refuse to admit that the minorities in America have the hardest time to suceed. You also refuse to admit that these minorities have given up on the system that favors whites. This is why they teach their kids that the public school which gets little actual funding is worthless, and they turn to violence, drugs, gangs.

Wake the fvck up. They are responsible for their actions, you aren't
 
2003-06-19 03:56:37 PM
Weemill:

pardon me sir, but how do you know what I've seen? You do not know me, you dont know what I have been through, and you dont have the right to make the judgement that you are more qualified to discuss this issue than me. I dont know what you have been through, but it doesnt justify your assumption that its more than I have been through.
 
2003-06-19 03:56:50 PM
Crazyjim
This is where I am different than you. I know how to judge a man by love, you judge men by money.

False. I have enough respect for people to think that they can make something of themselves without relying on handouts and pity. I have enough respect for them to think that the majority want to make something of themselves. And furthermore, I have enough respect for you and myself to say that taking my and your money and passing it around does nothing positive for these people at all. I do not judge them by their money; however, money can certainly make a positive difference in their lives. Clearly you think that poor people are too stupid/lazy/unmotivated/whatever to ever be able to make it on their own without the big government riding on the white horse to their rescue.
 
2003-06-19 03:57:37 PM
Oh good the long argument over the riots.

One less asshat in the world. He got what he deserved. As for the rest it's just an excuse to break shiat and beat people. Life is hard, get over it.

I guarantee that police, judges, teachers, etc give black people a harder time than white people. Most of them aren't black (BTW I've seen black officers behave rougher than white ones when arresting black suspects). I sat on a bus next to a black guy who was in the police academy and we talked. The people in his neighborhood called him a sellout, a wanna be white man, an uncle tom for trying to become a cop and make a difference in his neighborhood. To me that seems like the sort of thing that would begin to make a difference in a neighborhood. Black officers who treated black people the same as white people would go a long way towards increasing the cooperation and respect in the poor neighborhoods and it would go a long way towards reducing the drugs and crime and hope for the people.

As for schools, I live in the city and I have never seen a student on the bus (here they take public transportation to school) with a book (they'd get stolen and destroyed according to a teacher I know) and most of them aren't raised to value education and hard work(which is the ONLY thing that will make their futures better). Maybe the church groups and the local PTA should spend time raising strong, smart, hard working kids, and creating programs to reduce crime instead of blaming police for being to rough on criminals. Don't want to be killed running from the police A. don't commit a crime. B. Don't run.
 
2003-06-19 03:57:50 PM
06-19-03 03:47:49 PM Vroomazoom

Now you try to take responsibility for the actions of your parents,grandparents and probably you

weemill, sorry but that is just stupid. why dont you take responsibility for my grandparents and parents? (even though i dont know what they did). You had just as much say so over there actions as I did.


I am. I agree with affirmative action, I agree with social programs that are enacted to empower minorities, including, but not limited to, women, and i mentor youth so they can know about life outside the realm of poverty. When i say your grandparents and parents, i mean that generically, as your parents might not have done anything. I mean that societally, our forefathers did some messed up stuff. Lets accept that, rectify it, repair the disparity, and try to move on.
 
2003-06-19 03:59:16 PM
"Sittin in my living room, calm and collected
Feelin that gotta-get-mine perspective
cause what I just heard, broke me in half
and half the nubianz I know, plus the nubianz on the Row is bailin
Laugh now but cry much later
Ya see when nubianz get together
they get mad cause they can't fade us
Like my nubianz from South Central, Los Angeles
They found that they couldn't handle us
Bloods, Crips on the same squad
with the Ese's help and nubian it's time to rob and mob
(And break the white man off somthin lovely, biddy-bye-bye
I don't love dem so dem can't love me)
Yo, straight puttin it down gettin my scoot on
It's jump in off in Compton so I gots to get my loot on
and come up on me some furniture or somethin
Got a VCR, in the back of my car
that I ganked from the Slausson Swap Meet
And motherfarkers better not try to stop me
Cause they will see that I can't be stopped
cause I'ma cock my Glock and pop til they all drop

Interlude: (*female reporter, then male reporter*)

(Yes on the videotape we seem to have the
ahh, people in the crowd throwing things at the officers)

(And swinging at them as well, as a result
A young woman there, you see took a swing
at at an officer with some object in her hand)"


- Dr. Dre - The day the nubianz took over
 
2003-06-19 03:59:19 PM
06-19-03 03:51:43 PM 420_Yo

Big_Al, yes, and the more of them there are, the harder they will be to ignore.


When you grow up in the ghetto and see nothing but cops abusing their power to you and your citizens, why exactly would you want to become one of them? They are outcasts to you, most minorities see cops as evil. I agree with your point, but cops are hated so much that most people would never think of becoming one.
 
2003-06-19 03:59:26 PM
EatHam,

I believe the country is in a state of economic recession, run by factories that are mostly automated and need no workers. The only people who profit from this are people that own the factories.

Its like starting a game of monopoly after everyone has gotten 20 turns.
 
2003-06-19 03:59:30 PM
Burn -

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences but your comment makes it sound like one action deserves another. That is not true.
 
2003-06-19 04:01:17 PM
Can any white person here still define racism? White people are so uptight about not appearing racist that they tolerate extreme cases of racism and smile at it because they are afraid of being called racists. If a white person says a black person did something stupid, that white person is a racist. If a black person makes a commercial about stupid white people, it's humor. If a white person wonders why "they" are burning their own homes down, he's a racist. But black people can have conferences like the one here in Cleveland from which white people are banned!

Now imagine I started a magazine called "White Woman." Imagine I started a TV network called "White Entertainment Television." What if I had a gathering of white mayors to discuss white issues in our cities? What if I made a commercial where a bunch of white kids are making fun of how a pair of black kids dance? What if I was a white comedian making fun of the way black people talk?

I'd be burned at the stake, no doubt about it.

So remember, if you want to call it racism, it has to work both ways. It isn't OK for blacks to hate whites, no matter how morally indignant and powerless they may feel. No matter how many coincidences happen, it isn't OK to believe it is a vast White Conspiracy to keep the black man down. If white cops cause the death of a black person, it's racism. But if a white guy is robbed by a black person, it's no big deal.

Calling racism is a crutch. I'm not black, but I sincerely hope that sooner or later all these people crying racism realize that they aren't helping themselves at all. Waiting for someone else to save you or looking for someone to blame for the conditions of your life won't make your plight any better. Education is there, but it isn't cool in some communities to be smart, so the desperation feeds itself. So-called "Black Leaders" like Farrakhan come in and fan the flames of dissent by pointing and saying, "There's the reason your life sucks." Now they have a direction for their anger, and it erupts like this.

The only way things will get better is if people start to realize that they are only responsible for themselves. Nobody owes you anything just because you're here or because you're a minority. It is your job to make yourself better--don't blame someone else for your inability or unwillingness to recognize your own failures.

/ready to be called a racist...
 
2003-06-19 04:01:20 PM
Big Al:

"Then they have morons like yourself who say Affirmitive Action is really racism, and blacks "honestly" have a fair road to travel to sucess."

So it's because there are black workers that are better qualified that white workers that aren't getting hired? It's because there are black students with better GPAs than white students who are not getting into schools?

No. No company can AFFORD to be racist now. I don't care who you are, or where you come from, if you are the best person for the job, I'm hiring you. But wait! Sorry White Guy who is better qualified, I have to hire a less-skilled black guy to make my quota. Layoffs? Oh, we cannot lay off the black person who is underpeforming, it'll throw off our quotas, so we had better lay off the white guy!

And you say that that doesn't breed racial hatred!?!?

Wake up dude.
 
2003-06-19 04:01:37 PM
So remove the race card from the story. It doesnt make any difference that they are black. The only thing that makes a difference is that they are poor and un-educated.
The riots are not about this kid dying on his motorcycle
it is just an excuse.

Also the race card can't be played when 90+% of your community is of that race.

There was a news story about a women in Flint MI who got sick of living in a trash neighbor hood, so she got a couple jobs and her husband got a couple jobs and they started fixing up their house then bought the slum house next to them and started fixing that up. Now they are looking at another piece of property on the other side of them to turn into a park for their kids.

I don't care what color you are, if you work hard
you can change your life.

I live just outside of Flint.
All poor neighborhoods look the same
to me no matter what color of people live there.

[qoute]06-19-03 01:57:28 PM Lono

I was wondering if this was going to be brought up. Riots for no reason. Fantastic Idea.

Also, Did anyone see "Pimpy the Mayor" on Lou Dobbs last night.[/qoute]

Yes I did see the Mayor on TV last night and we did have a good laugh. I'm surpised he didnt pull up in a caddy.
He had the wide brim hat and cane. If his hat was fuzzy and purple he would have looked like the stereotypical 70's pimp.
 
2003-06-19 04:03:28 PM
My experience has been that cops are racist assholes. Your mileage may vary. My friend's experiences have been that cops are racist assholes. Once again your mileage may vary.

I don't think it is so much an issue of race as it is an issue of being an asshole. I think it is more likely that you can get away with being an asshole in a impoverishe, minority community than you can in an upper-middle class white community. And by asshole I mean a beating, murdering fark. 'Cuase if you don't think that happens, well, it happens.
 
2003-06-19 04:03:45 PM
JerkStore -

I agree with you. Especially about the white folks trying so friggin hard to appear non-racist.
 
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