Kar98: Slartibartfaster: how can you prove it without observing the absence ?

I observed and documented evidence for its absence. Also, the wife would have mentioned something if there was a white rhino behind me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

Kar98: I observed and documented evidence for its absence. Also, the wife would have mentioned something if there was a white rhino behind me.

Your wife is probably having an affair with it. Why would she alert you to her lover's presence? Do you really think your wife that stupid?

sheumack: Your methodology, however, does strongly indicate that the probability of a white rhino behind him is so low as to be evident to a rationally thinking human being

If we are to take "evident to a rationally thinking human" and "beyond reasonable doubt" into account lets divide them.

Evident to a rationally thinking human being does not generally include God, since there is not evidence to prove the positive as such (none that would also pass "beyond all reasonable doubt")

Beyond all reasonable doubt (if we are keeping context to proving a negative) is already disputed is it not ? I have no reasonable doubt (and cannot) to sustain that level of proof and thus cannot fulfill this.

so.... lets go back to the ridiculous white rhino....

The white rhino is of course not evident to a rational thinking human being (since this is a thought experiment). It is within the domain of "reasonable to doubt it" just like "god" but this is not a court of law, it is logic. (I have spent enough time in courts to appreciate logic, law, and reason, these are not always interconnected)

I can prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that there is no white rhino, and using the same qualifications can show god does not exist (there is reasonable doubt, he created paris hilton right ?)

I cannot prove that god does NOT exist, nor the white rhino, by logic though.

I am pretty sure there is no white rhino.... and pretty sure there is no god, but I cannot prove it.

untaken_name: Zamboro: Untaken_name: "DNRTFA, but I just wanted to know: What, exactly, is so bad about a dairy product produced by bacterial fermentation of milk?"

I take it you have yet to sample the culinary atrocity that is American cheddar.

I dunno, is that what they make Velveeta out of? Because that's the only cheese I ever eat, and it's delicious! Pro tip: you don't even need a spoon to eat it if you just don't melt it first. Time saver!

I just threw up a little.

Kar98: Also, the wife would have mentioned something if there was a white rhino behind me

We all asked her not to

// saves on the other explanations about ya know.... the other stuff

ReverendJasen: I can prove there is no rhino behind me using any number of methods, including something as simple as 3rd party observation

the key word was "behind" it is a metaphor for "unobservable"

I could make the example less ridiculous, but ... I like white rhinos

ReverendJasen: Xenu?

DOES NOT EXIST !!!

(I read it on 4chan, ya know, when I was looking for my fark link)

jingks:Your wife is probably having an affair with it. Why would she alert you to her lover's presence? Do you really think your wife that stupid?

So it's a horny rhino?

sheumack: Kar98: Slartibartfaster: how can you prove it without observing the absence ?

I observed and documented evidence for its absence. Also, the wife would have mentioned something if there was a white rhino behind me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

Skimmed that. Would you like me to explain why his theory is bullcrap?

Christians - taking the fun out of, well, everything since 0 AD.

Kar98: Also, the wife would have mentioned something if there was a white rhino behind me.

It is her "Get out of marriage free" card. Whenever she gets fed up with the marriage she will just have the rhino trample you to death. She collects the insurance money and moves on with her life. And the best part is that everyone will just assume that being trampled to death by a rhino was just some bizarre, freak accident!

:-D

fusillade762: Christians who practice yoga are embracing, or at minimum flirting with, a spiritual practice that threatens to transform their own spiritual lives into a "post-Christian, spiritually polyglot" reality. Should any Christian willingly risk that?

Wow, is your faith really that fragile?

I was thinking that too when I read it. Why are so many Christians so terrified of everything? Are they afraid it might possibly cause them to *gasp* ask questions?

Kar98: sheumack: Kar98: Slartibartfaster: how can you prove it without observing the absence ?

I observed and documented evidence for its absence. Also, the wife would have mentioned something if there was a white rhino behind me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

Skimmed that. Would you like me to explain why his theory is bullcrap?

Which bit of it?

The false logic of "All swans are white because we've only seen white" is completely valid.

The argument that such "black swan" event are the sole way that big shifts in thinking can be made is bullcrap, and black-swan theory disproves itself.

ie - If the white swan is that black swans are required for a shift, you only need to find a single black swan example to disprove that not all swans are black.

I agree with him in the general thesis that yoga is a gateway religion. And that's a good thing. Here's my favorite part of the article:

The embrace of yoga is a symptom of our postmodern spiritual confusion, and, to our shame, this confusion reaches into the church.

If yoga is confusion and Christianity is sanity ... I'll take confusion.

trillium13: fusillade762: Christians who practice yoga are embracing, or at minimum flirting with, a spiritual practice that threatens to transform their own spiritual lives into a "post-Christian, spiritually polyglot" reality. Should any Christian willingly risk that?

Wow, is your faith really that fragile?

I was thinking that too when I read it. Why are so many Christians so terrified of everything? Are they afraid it might possibly cause them to *gasp* ask questions?

I was just thinking along these lines too. According to christians all other religions are fake. If that is true then how can someone be seduced by the spirituality of yoga? That spirituality does not exist!

Jakevol2: closed minded, ethnocentric, bigoted Christians

Sounds to me you've covered a vast majority of them right there.

ReverendJasen: Because yes, we cannot prove there is not a magical, invisible rhino behind you boinking your wife.

However, I think that would make an adult video that would sell extremely well.

girlsinyogapants.com (new window)
You're welcome. (probably SFW- pictures of hot girls' butts in yoga pants)

ReverendJasen: Except for the fact that, you know, most of us are not insane

Prove that, lets chat after

/// look around, most of our species is what would be called insane
// insane/ self destructive/ overtly bizarre
/ none of which says you can prove a negative

ReverendJasen: boinking your wife

Luckily I can observe my wife

/ I have to... damned white rhinos

Just another notch in my "Why I Ditched Religion" belt. This is simply insane.

I was raised as an evangelical, and yes I remember well being in church as a ten year old and hearing the pastor thunder against the evils of yoga and any other sort of meditation.

My mom also made us walk out of the Ninja Turtles movies because one of the turtles started meditating. She snatched my hand and made a big scene of storming out of the theater and told me that the Ninja Turtles were satanic.

My youth had a lot of such events.


//Why yes, as a matter of fact, I am an atheist and I live on the other side of the country from any family.

ReverendJasen: we can twist logic into making anything we want to believe true

YES

but we cant use logic to prove otherwise

logic does not work that way

Belief is ... not related to logic (in common use it is used to ignore logic, but that is not required, you can have faith in logic, but you cannot have logic in faith, faith is determined by the lack of the requirement of logic, logic does not require faith.)

The white rhino behind me is probably not there, but because I cannot observe it I cannot prove it is not there... boinking my wife. (pretty sure it is not boinking MY wife, have you checked yours ?)

ZipSplat: y youth had a lot of such events.


//Why yes, as a matter of fact, I am an atheist and I live on the other side of the country from any famil

I changed hemispheres

Hi Mom !!! how is spring going ? You Wiccan idjut

sheumack: Kar98: sheumack: Kar98: Slartibartfaster: how can you prove it without observing the absence ?

I observed and documented evidence for its absence. Also, the wife would have mentioned something if there was a white rhino behind me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

Skimmed that. Would you like me to explain why his theory is bullcrap?

Which bit of it?

The part where it attributes meaning to something that's meaningless. WW1, the PC, 9/11 are cited as "black swan" examples, which is absolutely farking bullcrap, because that stipulates that they came out of nowhere and are unprecedented events when in fact they didn't and aren't.

Slartibartfaster: I changed hemispheres

Hi Mom !!! how is spring going ? You Wiccan idjut

I lived in Hawaii for two years in the military. HEAVEN.

Slartibartfaster: The white rhino behind me is probably not there, but because I cannot observe it I cannot prove it is not there... boinking my wife. (pretty sure it is not boinking MY wife, have you checked yours ?)

Sounds a bit like Fair Witnesses from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. They only report what they actually saw/see. In one example a Fair Witness is asked, "What color is that house on the hill?" And her reply was, "It's white on this side". If not for the obvious contempt of court charges that would come from it I would love to testify in court as a fair witness!

Kar98: The part where it attributes meaning to something that's meaningless. WW1, the PC, 9/11 are cited as "black swan" examples, which is absolutely farking bullcrap, because that stipulates that they came out of nowhere and are unprecedented events when in fact they didn't and aren't.

I agree with you, but that's not actually an issue with the theory, it's an issue with the examples chosen to illustrate the theory.

There are examples of when a discovery of something completely unforeseen causes a paradigm shift, but those aren't that.

Personally, I can't think of a better example than the Black Swan, with the possible exception of the discovery of monotremes.

Oh, this has a Cool Story, Bro, attached to it...

A close friend was going through a nasty divorce, basically her emotionally abusive hubby finally took a swing at her and she was in court the next day. Within one week this lapsed Catholic who hadn't been to church in decades was a member of Alcoholics Anonymous, within two weeks he was born again in Jesus, within three he had joined a megachurch.

A real piece of work, that guy. Anyway, he tried to make the argument through his lawyer that since my friend was a 4th level Anusura yoga adept that she must be practicing witchcraft and therefore was not a fit parent because she wasn't a Christian.

My friend just looked at the lawyer and said "Mr. Horovitz, you're Jewish, aren't you."

He got the message, and that attack died right then and there.

Also, Yoga is sexy as hell.

Sorry folks... I agree with the article.

Tsar_Bomba1:

Sorry folks... I agree with the article.

Ok... Mind if I ask why? The article doesn't make a very strong argument.

Iron Nacho Melt: Such people are probably lost even at the level of the breathing exercises where one's treating the breath as if it's life energy moving in the body.

To be fair, treating the breath as "life energy" is some mystical sounding bullshiat.

It might be closer to Astrology or Homeopathy than to Scientology or Mormonism... and thus, more of a magic/pseudoscience than a complete religion... but it is still supernatural enough that this atheist wouldn't participate.

There are any number of science-based physical fitness activities that don't involve "chi", or "lifeforce", or imaginary metaphysical bullshiat.

Jakevol2: I attend a Catholic University and they offer free yoga classes every week. We also just had a big campus wide celebration of Ramadan. Today we hung Tibetan peace flags on campus. Only closed minded, ethnocentric, bigoted Christians would say you shouldn't do yoga if you want to be a good Christian.

Define "good"?

Catholicism pretty much believes that those Muslims, and Tibetan Buddhists are going to suffer eternal torture beyond all comprehension if they don't give up their religions and accept Christ as their savior.

I mean, as an atheist I think it is "good" that you are accepting of other religions... but, it just seems like some half-ass Christianity. I don't believe people who don't accept Christ go to hell, but if I did (as Catholics do), then it seems that they are definitely very shiatty Christians by promoting other religions that will inevitably result in souls being damned.

WhiteAndNerdy: girlsinyogapants.com (new window)
You're welcome. (probably SFW- pictures of hot girls' butts in yoga pants)

Damn Dude,

Even though it seems gay... I think I might need to start taking yoga classes.

/Had an ex into it.

Just as a side note:

If you get an erection watching a shapely girl doing the "Downward Dog" pose you automatically go to Hell.

Just saying, in case you were wondering.

/ would gladly go to Hell 10,000 times, given the chance. Especially if it involved Spandex.

Tsar_Bomba1: Sorry folks... I agree with the article.

Did you get my message in the previous thread? Your Nova episode on Chernobyl is on Demonoid.

Martian_Astronomer: This type of thinking often extends to asian martial arts, as well. As in, "You need someone to pray for deliverance for you if you've taken a semester of Karate I."

There are several martial arts that incorporate mystical teachings into their curriculum. For example, Morihei Ueshiba incorporated a bunch of elements of Oomoto (and Shinto in general) into Aikido. Ninjitsu and several other tradition Japanese arts use Kuji Kiri (which are essentially magical hand motions that cast spells). And a whole slew of traditional martial arts incorporate wholly unscientific concepts like "chi".

So, in addition to teaching you stupid shiat that might get you killed in a real fight, I could easily see the spiritual teachings of many martial arts as in direct conflict with the Christian religion.

ZipSplat: I was raised as an evangelical, and yes I remember well being in church as a ten year old and hearing the pastor thunder against the evils of yoga and any other sort of meditation.

Sounds like my Pentecostal church growing up. I once told our youth pastor that I'd watched a David Copperfield special and thought he was cool (hey, I was thirteen). He told me that David Copperfield was Satanic because he was friends with the Dalai Lama.

Also, during youth group, he'd bring in the newspaper. He'd take the headlines and try to match them up with verses in the Revelation, to show us that the end times were upon us, and we should be terrified.

Fun times.

Listerine: StoPPeRmobile: StormnMormon: Yea I purchased Yoga for dummies awhile back, in an effort to start stretching and stuff as a prelude to more exercise for weight loss. After slogging through a few chapters of BS (Seriously, just so much crap about "connecting to the universe" and creating a sense of harmony") I returned it and just bought stretching for dummies.

So there are some pseudo-religious or at least "mystical" elements or whatever, but just enough to be annoying.

advisable: a cool story, bro:

at my yoga class, the woman in charge plays johnny cash as the background music during practice. It's phenomenal.

Listerine: more like "do yoga? you're a weak as piss"

yoga is a complete waste of time

Where is that article from a few days ago about stretching, not worth a fark?

I'd like to see it.

Lifting weights is much more useful than stretching for an hour and a half ever could be.

adaptations are a result of specific stimulus, and it's hard to imagine an evolutionary need to stretch, while lifting something heavy is quite useful and the necessary adaptation of increased strength is sure to follow

You're either painfully ignorant or a troll.

Know how I know you've never seriously tried yoga? Because you think it's useless/easy/a waste of time/doesn't involve resistance training.

I've been lifting weights for about 25 years and recently started doing yoga once a week. It's a LOT harder than it looks and combines resistance training, flexibility, and balance.

Jasimo:

Know how I know you've never seriously tried yoga? Because you think it's useless/easy/a waste of time/doesn't involve resistance training.

I've been lifting weights for about 25 years and recently started doing yoga once a week. It's a LOT harder than it looks and combines resistance training, flexibility, and balance.

This. I'm a big mesomorph guy and I did not know what a workout was until I started doing yoga with a girlfriend.

Solar Plexus!: Sounds like my Pentecostal church growing up. I once told our youth pastor that I'd watched a David Copperfield special and thought he was cool (hey, I was thirteen). He told me that David Copperfield was Satanic because he was friends with the Dalai Lama.

Also, during youth group, he'd bring in the newspaper. He'd take the headlines and try to match them up with verses in the Revelation, to show us that the end times were upon us, and we should be terrified.

Fun times.

I was told that by my public school teacher in 3rd Grade. I got a David Copperfield VHS for my birthday, my mom bought it for me and emphasized that it was "illusion, not real magic, so its ok". (The more interesting tangent there being that my mother believes "real magic" is real in the form of the Occult)

I brought in the video for movie day once and Mrs. Corbin explained to the class that imitating magic is just as bad as magic.

I hated that fat biatch, she was the teacher-wife of a rich businessman in town. I remember having the impression that she enjoyed humiliating kids. One black kid named Cedric had obvious learning problems and severe home problems, she would frequently make him stand in the corner in front of the class for things like not having supplies or not doing his homework.

This thread is being jacked into a support network for ex-evangelicals.

WhiteAndNerdy: girlsinyogapants.com (new window)
You're welcome. (probably SFW- pictures of hot girls' butts in yoga pants)

Haha, check out the video on page 7.

If nothing else, this has given me reason to roll out my sticky-mat and do some Sun Salutations.

My own Cool Story, Bro contribution:

A friend of mine teaches Theatre at a small college in South Carolina (South Carolina: The Other Florida). Part of her job is to teach the middle and high school student theatre camp in the summer. On the first day last year she was greeted by an irate parent demanding to know why she wasn't told that yoga was part of the curriculum.

She went on to explain that the problem with yoga was that it opened the mind which let the Devil in. Nothing has ever told me more about evangelical Christians than hearing about one who specifically opposed open-mindedness.

Eventually a compromise was reached. They could still have the yoga class, provided they didn't call it yoga and didn't teach the kids the names of any of the poses.

So, for the record, the Devil wants you to do yoga, Jesus just wants you to limber up.

/Told you it was a cool story, bro.

Wizard Drongo: Don't know if it's been said, but once again, for the record, as heathen, I can tell you we're in no way Godless. We have many many fine Gods. Them dumb-fark Christians only have one. Maybe two, 3 if they're catholics.

We have them numbering into the dozens. So fark you, you jealous little monotheists.

According to Sam Clemens, on his trip through Italy, the godhead was divided into three persons of diminishing importance.
No. 1. The Madonna.
No. 2. Saint Francis.
No. 3. The Baby Jesus. Most persons were unclear as to who he grew up to be, or if he did anything of great importance, but he was definitely one of the big ones.