Christians have their crazies. Atheists have their crazies. Judging either group by their crazies doesn't do anyone any good. No group of humans is perfect. The question is the ratio of good vs bad.

A good read that elaborates on what Somacandra has pointed out.

believe what you like, but don't expect me to give a shiat

Crosshair: Christians have their crazies. Atheists have their crazies. Judging either group by their crazies doesn't do anyone any good. No group of humans is perfect. The question is the ratio of good vs bad.

And, of course, the squirrels.

Nabb1: Calmamity: Atheists are not a team, Crosshair. They're not playing.

For someone not playing, some of them sure like to biatch about the rules and the other teams.

Anyway, I'm a bona fide skeptic when it comes to miracles, but surgery does not generally alleviate all chronic back pain. It helps, but most patients still have symptoms afterward.

So it must be god that did this for the guy amirite?

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Nabb1: Calmamity: Atheists are not a team, Crosshair. They're not playing.

For someone not playing, some of them sure like to biatch about the rules and the other teams.

Anyway, I'm a bona fide skeptic when it comes to miracles, but surgery does not generally alleviate all chronic back pain. It helps, but most patients still have symptoms afterward.

So it must be god that did this for the guy amirite?

Well, he did say he was a skeptic beforehand. That must mean that in this case, God miracled it.

It's a miracle! He became a doctor and didn't waste his life on religion and actually did something to help people!

SpaceyCat: I'm happy that this guy is pain free. If he could cause the same to happen for other people, it would be wonderful. Pain will break a person faster than anything else.

Aye. I'm always appalled/angry when health care comes up and people dismiss it because in my experience, health issues undermine productivity, patience, enthusiasm, determination... Well. Everything.

/Screw that 'work through the pain' bullshiat

namatad: @walker
thanks for ruining the ending
at least now I dont have to finishing reading it

It's ok, there's a twist after he dies. I won't spoil it, but think "Night of the Living Dead". Kinda cool.

I wish I can remember the book that I read this in, it was part of my Catholic Studies, but there was one portion of the book that detailed the author's skepticism of the church and the canonization process. He was talking about how in recent years the Vatican has been trying to rush Mother Theresa through the process and grant her Sainthood and two of the "miracles" that are attributed to her have been challenged by the doctors that treated healed patients. Since saints can perform miracles after death these are counted towards their consideration but one of the miracles was that a woman suffered a great abdominal pain (I can't remember what it was precisely) and a relative placed a coin with the likeness of Theresa on her belly and the pain went away and her ailment began to retreat over time. Even after the Vatican interviewed her doctor who told them it was due to new medicine she had been given and regular treatments, the church still counted it.

Alyna_jf: wear to god i'm not lying.

Which is why I think you're lying.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Nabb1: Calmamity: Atheists are not a team, Crosshair. They're not playing.

For someone not playing, some of them sure like to biatch about the rules and the other teams.

Anyway, I'm a bona fide skeptic when it comes to miracles, but surgery does not generally alleviate all chronic back pain. It helps, but most patients still have symptoms afterward.

So it must be god that did this for the guy amirite?

No we only biatch when a religion is stupid... Unfortunately that happens a ton.

Without RTFA, I'd guess the Cardinal is up for sainthood but needs to rack up a couple miracles. So who's it hurt? It's just arcane Catholic church stuff. Now if it were evangelicals, they'd try to have surgery banned.

Dear Jerk: Without RTFA, I'd guess the Cardinal is up for sainthood but needs to rack up a couple miracles. So who's it hurt? It's just arcane Catholic church stuff. Now if it were evangelicals, they'd try to have surgery banned.

Yup.

KatjaMouse: I wish I can remember the book that I read this in, it was part of my Catholic Studies, but there was one portion of the book that detailed the author's skepticism of the church and the canonization process. He was talking about how in recent years the Vatican has been trying to rush Mother Theresa through the process and grant her Sainthood and two of the "miracles" that are attributed to her have been challenged by the doctors that treated healed patients. Since saints can perform miracles after death these are counted towards their consideration but one of the miracles was that a woman suffered a great abdominal pain (I can't remember what it was precisely) and a relative placed a coin with the likeness of Theresa on her belly and the pain went away and her ailment began to retreat over time. Even after the Vatican interviewed her doctor who told them it was due to new medicine she had been given and regular treatments, the church still counted it.

I had heard something similar to that. Something about JP2 trying to beef up the numbers of saints to increase church attendance/adherence. I am pretty sure he relaxed the rules on sainthood (but Wiki doesn't have anything on it).

Godscrack: We sure coulda used some of them there 'miracles' during that little HOLOCAUST thing awhile back, whaddaya say Ratzy?

You know how I know you've never been to a catholic service?

Alyna_jf: 100% true story:

my uncle was crippled with rheumatoid arthritis. the doctors said he could literally die from the pain. he was in a wheelchair, basically on his deathbed. his wife brought him to the church to pray for his family. him and the priest prayed for him to get better enough for him to watch his kids grow up.
He walked out of the church. Played basketball with his son later that day, and ran a marathon 3 months later.

swear to god i'm not lying.

someone please explain to me why prayer is necessary? If you pray and the person is healed, it is a miracle. If you pray and they die, it was god's plan. So basically god is gonna do what he wants and prayers don't matter.
/not trying to troll, have just wondered that for awhile now

HEATHENS!

Aidan: KatjaMouse: I wish I can remember the book that I read this in, it was part of my Catholic Studies, but there was one portion of the book that detailed the author's skepticism of the church and the canonization process. He was talking about how in recent years the Vatican has been trying to rush Mother Theresa through the process and grant her Sainthood and two of the "miracles" that are attributed to her have been challenged by the doctors that treated healed patients. Since saints can perform miracles after death these are counted towards their consideration but one of the miracles was that a woman suffered a great abdominal pain (I can't remember what it was precisely) and a relative placed a coin with the likeness of Theresa on her belly and the pain went away and her ailment began to retreat over time. Even after the Vatican interviewed her doctor who told them it was due to new medicine she had been given and regular treatments, the church still counted it.

I had heard something similar to that. Something about JP2 trying to beef up the numbers of saints to increase church attendance/adherence. I am pretty sure he relaxed the rules on sainthood (but Wiki doesn't have anything on it).

Even before him. St Joan is still considered to be an erroneous addition into the collective but she was a popular spiritual figure and the Church really didn't want to lose more French attendance so they added her. The Catholic church painstakingly research and investigate "miracles" all the time and 95% of the time right them off as hoaxes, crazies, or natural phenomena. I was actually surprised that they counted the Mother Theresa stuff but I think it was, again, because they reeeeeeally want her to be a saint now and her addition will likely increase attendance and membership in their ranks particularly in Asia.

Oh good. This is going to make things confusing, as they already have a St John Neumann.

Oh Jesus Christ guys... I was having so much pain that I couldn't be on my feet for more than 15 minutes a day. I lived my days in a Lazy Boy recliner for 2 months. I had back surgery and have been 100% pain free for 6 years. It happens! Pray? Me? Oh hellya! I was praying that I could enjoy Bug Juice again!!!

neonpale: someone please explain to me why prayer is necessary? If you pray and the person is healed, it is a miracle. If you pray and they die, it was god's plan. So basically god is gonna do what he wants and prayers don't matter.
/not trying to troll, have just wondered that for awhile now

Prayer is required because God is totally unsure about what He should do next. It's not like He has an ineffable plan, or anything. Because He realizes that we mortals generally know better than Him, He listens to us and changes reality based on our wishes.

KatjaMouse: Even before him. St Joan is still considered to be an erroneous addition into the collective but she was a popular spiritual figure and the Church really didn't want to lose more French attendance so they added her. The Catholic church painstakingly research and investigate "miracles" all the time and 95% of the time right them off as hoaxes, crazies, or natural phenomena. I was actually surprised that they counted the Mother Theresa stuff but I think it was, again, because they reeeeeeally want her to be a saint now and her addition will likely increase attendance and membership in their ranks particularly in Asia.

The Jesuits audited the list of saints in the 60's and suggested a large number of saints be removed as they couldn't be confirmed to have existed in the historical record. St Valentine was removed (turned out to be a conflation of two early Catholic maturs and the Roman god Cupid) and St Gennario, the patron saint of Naples turned out to be Janus, the Roman god of entrances and of the new year.

Dwight_Yeast:
The Jesuits audited the list of saints in the 60's and suggested a large number of saints be removed as they couldn't be confirmed to have existed in the historical record. St Valentine was removed (turned out to be a conflation of two early Catholic maturs and the Roman god Cupid) and St Gennario, the patron saint of Naples turned out to be Janus, the Roman god of entrances and of the new year.

Awkward...

Alyna_jf: He walked out of the church. Played basketball with his son later that day, and ran a marathon 3 months later.

swear to god i'm not lying.

Why does god hate amputees? They never get a miracle cure.

Dwight_Yeast: Oh good. This is going to make things confusing, as they already have a St John Neumann.

no, you're thinking of gary numan, patron saint of cars

Alyna_jf: 100% true story:

my uncle was crippled with rheumatoid arthritis. the doctors said he could literally die from the pain. he was in a wheelchair, basically on his deathbed. his wife brought him to the church to pray for his family. him and the priest prayed for him to get better enough for him to watch his kids grow up.
He walked out of the church. Played basketball with his son later that day, and ran a marathon 3 months later.

swear to god i'm not lying.

Do you swear to god on an upside down backwards Chinese bible with a few of the pages missing? Link (new window)

cowgirl toffee: I'll be having surgery in a few weeks and I too will be asking god for pain relief.

At the time of surgery and a while after, I'll be praying and asking Morpheus morphine for a lot of help.

/My plan. I will stick to it.

neonpale: someone please explain to me why prayer is necessary? If you pray and the person is healed, it is a miracle. If you pray and they die, it was god's plan. So basically god is gonna do what he wants and prayers don't matter.
/not trying to troll, have just wondered that for awhile now

If you question, you have no faith, and thus are evil and will be punished.

// ask not what your .... just don't farking ask

Or you could just consider it a miracle of modern medicine.

/I know, go sit in the corner, Deist. :)

FTFA: Instantly, Sullivan's body began tingling, joy filled him and he felt heat like "walking into the open door of a huge oven," he said.

Sounds like Morphine to me.