After doing all of the math, Harlan Milkove seems more tired than anything else. "It's not fun. I wouldn't recommend it," he says. "You wasted an evening, and it just ticks you off."

Read the last line of the article first, then continue with your lives.

OK where's the chart of what percent of the total tax burden (state, local, federal) each income group makes compared to what percent of the income each group makes?

coco ebert: Texian: biatching about the second lowest tax rate (new window) in the 1st World and the one of the lowest marginal tax rates in the U.S. in 80+ years?

Go piss up a rope, you deluded, entitled misanthropes. To live in a civilization that provides you with enough comfort to sit around on your ass biatching about tax rates means someone has to actually pay taxes.

So much this. I really wish more Americans would live abroad for a while, travel even, and see how much people pay in other countries. Better yet, they can see what nice things higher tax rates can get you.

My peers in Finland were biatching about the University thinking about charging a couple hundred euros a year for tuition and the health service proposing charging a couple of euros for an office visit. They get two things for free which consume maybe 1/5 of my gross income.

bonno: Read the last line of the article first, then continue with your lives.

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Lanny Budd: They get two things for free which consume maybe 1/5 of my gross income.

"Hidden cost" != "free"

FYI.

I don't mind paying taxes, I like the services it provides. I wouldn't mind paying more if I knew I'd be getting better services for it. What gets me is I see tax dollars being pissed away on pointless, mismanaged, bloated... etc things.

STFU & GBTW, all of you.

Unless, of course, you don't have a job. At which point you should be asking folks who could hire you why they're not--you may find it has something to do with the tax burden.

szyska: I wouldn't mind paying more if I knew I'd be getting better services for it. What gets me is I see tax dollars being pissed away on pointless, mismanaged, bloated... etc things.



Which is why everyone should pay taxes. If more people paid taxes they would get pissed.

Right now we have a group that pays no income taxes being protected as a voting block by the spendaholic Democrats.

Mouser: STFU & GBTW, all of you.

Unless, of course, you don't have a job. At which point you should be asking folks who could hire you why they're not--you may find it has something to do with the tax burden.


More likely they don't have the customer base to require new workers. If they did, then they would have to hire or turn away customers. So long as they meet the demand, why would they hire more people?

impaler: The horror:

And to think, people get up in arms about what would have been a small farking increase in medicare for a single payer system. Less than they likely pay for health insurance now.

Cognitive Dissonance must be farking bliss. Someone pass me the blue pill.

crab66: Because people in Connecticut are not inbred morons like elsewhere.....mostly.

OK, lets ask the question in a more polite manner. What is Ct doing so poorly as far as their road systems (I am assuming that that's what the car tax is for?) that they need this tax when other states do not?

Philbb: kab: On the other hand:

"The Milkoves, it turns out, are paying just over 24 percent."

This is hardly an article worthy case. Go write about a single renter (ie, no deductions available outside the standard) in NY. Between federal and state taxes all wrapped up, you're probably pushing 2x this figure.

Please do. Or at least reference someone who has. Until you provide actual numbers your "probably pushing 2x this figure" comment has about as much credibility as my "probably pushing .02x this figure" comment.

The article is arguing about total taxes paid out. If you factor in federal, state,(and there's an extra grand or so per year out of your pay if you live in one of the 5 boroughs), gas use, and 8% sales tax on goods, you don't think that number is realistic?

bojon: 130k and they pay 18.7%. I have doubts. They should be 24% or more.

Wife and I make around 175k and pay 10-11% on our 1040 due to deductions. Almost all of that is mortgage interest.

sigh
consider also please that when you buy something made here you pay the past-along costs of each step before you. So any tax has a multiple compounded effect.

business makes and is taxed on profit
employees make wages and is taxed on the wages

you pay on the product enuf so the prior two can pay thier taxes
but 1st you pay taxes on your wages

and each step b4 them

and some of you wonder why the cost of doing business here is so high (also this aint all but is a good chunk)

For that family. I pay big bucks in property tax personally.

And there is a maximum level you reach with social security tax, the point of "liberal" NPR's article here is to suggest people are paying too much federal income tax so the author created the graphs in a way that would make that point. it's weak sauce NPR.

ProfessorPedal: Enough with the trolltastic headlines, okay?



Welcome to Fark.

SusanIvanova: The article doesn't mention their total income, but we can approximate it from the graphs:

Gas tax is quoted as ~$700 per year.
Gas tax is about one-tenth of the "other tax" category, judging by the width of the bar.
This implies their total "other tax" is about $7,000 per year.
The "other tax" category is stated as 5.4% of income.
Their household income is thus about $7000/0.054 = $130,000.

For a couple of engineers in their mid-20s, that's respectable, if not awesome.

This is roughly right. I figured it in the 150k range based on the property tax, but here are my thoughts:

These people can expect, if they work hard, to increase their incomes in the future. In ten years (when, perhaps, they've paid off their student loans), they probably hope to have income perhaps double what they have - $260-280k (today's dollars). Which means they're super rich by our new demagogue-based standards. Over 40% of their income will be confiscated directly. Their take home will be less than 50% of gross, assuming they put any of it away in a 401k and pay some share of their health care. That's before property (real and personal) taxes, sales taxes, etc. They will be staring down the barrel of 60% effective tax rates. The marginal rate is even higher. So two successful, senior, seasoned engineers will be living on roughly $2k per week, $9k per month. Maybe that sounds awesome, but that's ASSUMING they have a big mortgage (in order to get the effective tax rates down to the stated level) of, say, $3k per month; a smaller mortgage reduces expenses but increases taxes. A living wage? Yes. Comfortable? Perhaps, depends on the location. Super rich? No.

Tax policy should look really nice for a successful 26 year old couple with both of them working. If it doesn't for them, then the rest of us are hosed. After all, we need to ensnare people into believing that going to college and getting a degree and putting that degree to work is in their economic best interest, instead of telling the truth, which is that it's really just in the economic best interest of the collective.

LasersHurt: Phil Herup:

I'm Phil Herup, and I don't understand how money works.


Says the guy who does not know where money comes from.

Headso: And there is a maximum level you reach with social security tax

Do you know what it is? It's $106,800, for each wage earner. So if you make $120,000, you don't pay the tax in December. It's a very substantial tax, unless you have farking enormous W-2 income.

24% is pretty low relative to the rest of the world.

Especially considering the roads are free, the court system is free, police and fire dept. are free, our all volunteer military brings their own equipment from home, etc. etc.

Not to mention that kid better be going to a private school.

I hate when people complain about taxes... but don't complain about the above services which they inevitably consume but don't pay ala cart.

If your going to complain about taxes, at least be consistent.

They get a better deal than the majority of people even with half their household income in most of the first world countries.

Phil Herup: LasersHurt: Phil Herup:

I'm Phil Herup, and I don't understand how money works.


Says the guy who does not know where money comes from.

Phil's money comes from his mom, which comes from me, and let me tell you that she REALLY earns it.

d3: bojon: 130k and they pay 18.7%. I have doubts. They should be 24% or more.

Wife and I make around 175k and pay 10-11% on our 1040 due to deductions. Almost all of that is mortgage interest.

My wife and I combine for 100k, and I end up paying the 24%, even with all the deductions for kids, mortgage interest,etc. This includes SS/Medicare, but still surprised these guys are only at 18% if it appears they are at 130k combined. I must not be doing something right....

DIGITALgimpus: Especially considering the roads are free

The roads are paid for via use taxes. FYI.

SusanIvanova: Oh my Lord! You mean a couple with two successful careers (they're both engineers!) pay a whopping 24.1% of their income in taxes -- including income, property, sales, payroll, etc.! That's like almost a quarter! Clearly, their finances are being unreasonably hobbled by this unbearable burden. They should go Galt and see how we like it*!

After all, apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order (and a public pensions system and national defense)... what have the Romans gubmint done for them?


* No offense meant to the couple in question, just those who would construe their 24% tax burden as clearly outrageous.

Of the 24% of their income that is taxed about 3% (of their income) covers everything you listed except national defense, which could be covered with about 10% of their income or so.

Uh, they picked a really rosy scenario of an upperish middle class family with shiatloads of income tax deductions.

Now pick an unmarried couple living together making a total of 60k or so, with no kids and renting. Also they like alcohol and cigarettes.

The couple in the article are doing all the things the government wants them to do (have a mortgage and kids, and don't drink too much) so they get tax deductions.

slothMD: The roads are paid for via use taxes. FYI.

Don't let anyone tell you you're not able to read sarcasm.

Mentat: That's it, I'm going to the grocery store and I'm buying up all the soup and bleach! Enjoy the Apocalypse losers!

What's the bleach for?

Yeah, I'm single, no kids, and rent. I basically have NO deductions. Made about $52k last year and paid about $12k in Federal income taxes alone. That's 23% of my income in Federal Income Tax alone. That does not include State income taxes, the portion of my outrageous rent that goes to wildly inflated property taxes, and all the rest. I haven't calculated it out, but I'm sure I pay about 35% of my total income in taxes. I wish I could get down to these people's level. I guess I just have to do what the government wants me to do, which is get married, have kids, and go into massive debt.

orbitalfreak: I'd like to see that "Dollar value of taxes paid" broken out into what they're funding. How much of their tax bill goes to military, how much to education, etc. That would help put some perspective on things.

Here you go, I measured the lines and guestimated how their 22,000 payroll withholdings were split between the federal catagories and the state catagory.

The spending catagories are pre-bailout budget numbers.

barrygoldwater: "Let me clear: anyone who is rich is a piece of crap. Now excuse me while I take my private jet to New York and use both of my limos to fark up traffic for the unwashed so that my wife and I can see a broadway play..."

Since when do the 'unwashed' care about traffic in NYC? I thought they all took the bus (dedicated bus lanes) or the subway.

NuclearWinter: barrygoldwater: "Let me clear: anyone who is rich is a piece of crap. Now excuse me while I take my private jet to New York and use both of my limos to fark up traffic for the unwashed so that my wife and I can see a broadway play..."

Since when do the 'unwashed' care about traffic in NYC? I thought they all took the bus (dedicated bus lanes) or the subway.

The only people who believe that are proponents of public transportation who don't live anywhere near NYC.

SusanIvanova 2010-09-08 06:36:23 PM

Oh my Lord! You mean a couple with two successful careers (they're both engineers!) pay a whopping 24.1% of their income in taxes -- including income, property, sales, payroll, etc.! That's like almost a quarter! Clearly, their finances are being unreasonably hobbled by this unbearable burden. They should go Galt and see how we like it*!

After all, apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order (and a public pensions system and national defense)... what have the Romans gubmint done for them?


* No offense meant to the couple in question, just those who would construe their 24% tax burden as clearly outrageous.



The farking roads were made about 50 years ago and are falling apart. Public education is barely teaching kids to read. Public health? Fine, you say? Hmmmm, many would disagree, it seems. Fresh water and...what? Order? Oh, the cops and firefighters, you mean. Yeah, that's good. Yes, I can see why you need to send a fourth of your income to the government, cause that's where it's all going.

It's hilarious how many decry "big business" and how you can't trust these people, and how greedy and corrupt they are,but suddenly become all Pollyanna about the federal government. "They'll fix everything!" What a farking joke.
Go down to your local DMV. It will give you a great read on how efficient government services run.

Paying a fourth of your money to the gov. is bullshiat.

The surprise for me is how many think losing 25% of your income is fair when taxes were originally setup for war time. It continues to grow and at some point it needs to stop. Taxes are being applied to everything and in some cases, numerous times. That's more the point of this article. The small taxes being slipped into your phone bills and other places are the things many don't consider.

The government could manage the money better. Then again, considering the average credit card debt, upside down mortgage and car loans out there, I guess the REAL issue is most Americans can't call out our government for their horrible spending.

Worth a read:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html#axzz0z2WRZZS3

nelsonal: orbitalfreak: I'd like to see that "Dollar value of taxes paid" broken out into what they're funding. How much of their tax bill goes to military, how much to education, etc. That would help put some perspective on things.

Here you go, I measured the lines and guestimated how their 22,000 payroll withholdings were split between the federal catagories and the state catagory.

The spending catagories are pre-bailout budget numbers.

There's no apostrophe on gets.

doubled99: SusanIvanova 2010-09-08 06:36:23 PM

Oh my Lord! You mean a couple with two successful careers (they're both engineers!) pay a whopping 24.1% of their income in taxes -- including income, property, sales, payroll, etc.! That's like almost a quarter! Clearly, their finances are being unreasonably hobbled by this unbearable burden. They should go Galt and see how we like it*!

After all, apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order (and a public pensions system and national defense)... what have the Romans gubmint done for them?


* No offense meant to the couple in question, just those who would construe their 24% tax burden as clearly outrageous.



The farking roads were made about 50 years ago and are falling apart. Public education is barely teaching kids to read. Public health? Fine, you say? Hmmmm, many would disagree, it seems. Fresh water and...what? Order? Oh, the cops and firefighters, you mean. Yeah, that's good. Yes, I can see why you need to send a fourth of your income to the government, cause that's where it's all going.

It's hilarious how many decry "big business" and how you can't trust these people, and how greedy and corrupt they are,but suddenly become all Pollyanna about the federal government. "They'll fix everything!" What a farking joke.
Go down to your local DMV. It will give you a great read on how efficient government services run.

Paying a fourth of your money to the gov. is bullshiat.

i love the "waiting in line at the DMV" example for how the government runs.
that cracks me up.

I think rush taught me that one circa 1990.

pudding7: I was expecting some scary chart to show 60% or something.

24.1% That's it? Wow, that's awesome. The heavyweights on the left should be shouting this from the rooftops.

Agreed, I thought after adding property + sales tax, the middle class paid about 50% in effective taxes and fees. I'm surprised to hear it's so low, and I'd think people would be repeating this number quite happily.

War ain't free.

I for one, have no problem paying taxes. On the flip side I have a MASSIVE PROBLEM with OUT OF CONTROL GOVERNMENTAL SPENDING because clearly they can't control themselves.

I get so tired of hearing things about "if we don't spend our budget then we lose it"... well so what? So come in UNDER BUDGET because it is the RIGHT THING TO DO.

Not to mention the fact that we are taxed 2,3,4 or more times on the same item.

24% total tax is very low for 2 middle class earners. Of course the gov't isn't perfect, but it works well enough.

Ral: The govt gets all that farking money from us and they STILL come to us daily saying they need more for some damn project or another.

Public schools get shiatloads of money and they still beg for donations to cover a "shortfall". It's the unions and elitist bureaucrats taking it all.

Cite stats or you're just talking out your ass.

GAT_00: bojon: 130k and they pay 18.7%. I have doubts. They should be 24% or more.

No, that's right. Deductions are absolutely out of control. The actual top rate is 36%, but if you make more than $250,000 and you're paying more than about 20% or so, you have a bad accountant. The only people who end up paying close to their effective rates are the lower middle class.

But the rich pay too much! Tax cuts fix everything!

I was going to take a job for between $250,000 and $280,000 but that would bring us one step closer to socialism.

Voiceofreason01: jigger: Yeah, I'm single, no kids, and rent. I basically have NO deductions. Made about $52k last year and paid about $12k in Federal income taxes alone. That's 23% of my income in Federal Income Tax alone. That does not include State income taxes, the portion of my outrageous rent that goes to wildly inflated property taxes, and all the rest. I haven't calculated it out, but I'm sure I pay about 35% of my total income in taxes. I wish I could get down to these people's level. I guess I just have to do what the government wants me to do, which is get married, have kids, and go into massive debt.

Buy a house. Save money in a 401K, IRA or other tax exempt/defered account, learn to do your taxes, move out of DC.

/there are almost always some deductions
//unless all you do is go to work, come home and drink beer.



Thanks, Daddy government. I'll get right on all that.

I guess I do deserve to be punished for not doing those things.

Joining the course saying that the numbers in TFA are incredibly low; NPR must have hunted for a couple with a lot of deductions. CSB: Off $160,000, my total tax liability last year between federal/state (NY)/city (NYC) was just south of $52,000, or about 32%-- and that's after I did every feasible tax dodging strategy, including maximum contributions to 401(k). Not counting 401(k) money (which is logical, since it will be taxed when I take it out a few decades for now), my tax rate was more like 36%. Adding in a sales tax of nearly 9%, the property tax that gets passed along to me in the rent, various sin taxes, and the like I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that half of my money went to the government last year. It's surely at least 40-45%.