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(The New York Times)   In what comes as a surprise to no one, Giants Stadium leaves Giant Debt   (nytimes.com) divider line 43
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1579 clicks; posted to Sports » on 08 Sep 2010 at 2:32 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-09-08 02:57:23 AM
What a Giant Pun! Is this even a pun? Do I even care? You know what, screw you guys, I'm gonna go watch Sports Center.

I hate you i hate you i hate youi.
 
2010-09-08 03:23:53 AM
organizm: You know what, screw you guys, I'm gonna go watch Sports Center.

Do it then! Just FARKING do it! Quit farking talking about it and farking do it already!!!!
 
2010-09-08 03:27:30 AM
I think I must be in the wrong thread....
 
2010-09-08 03:29:11 AM
Wow, as a Giants fan and sports fan in general that's pretty farking depressing and I am pissed at myself for not knowing that sooner.
 
2010-09-08 03:44:30 AM
...meanwhile, the billionaire owners of sports franchises that insisted they NEED new stadiums to remain competitive/keep the team in town/etc manage to leave local taxpayers footing the bill.

I certainly like the baseball Cardinals' new (ish) stadium, and I'm glad they won the WS their first year there, but I certainly voted against its construction. Three times. So did the majority of St. Louisans. Three times. Somehow, it still got built.

God bless America.
 
2010-09-08 05:58:50 AM
grinding_journalist: Somehow, it still got built.

The governor's main campaign contributor's construction company needed the contract.

This applies to 90% of publicly subsidized work.
 
2010-09-08 07:50:14 AM
graphics8.nytimes.com

... and this marks the spot where Jimmy Hoffa will be buried.
 
2010-09-08 09:36:07 AM
i miss the old place. it smelled funny, it was cold, it got dark in odd corners of the concoarse, it was a concrete bowl, getting out of the parking lot was a nightmare, the jets played there too, but it was a great place to be a fan and see a game.

Swirling winds...may you return and frustrate away teams in the swamp and cold of the New Meadowlands.
 
2010-09-08 09:50:31 AM
There ya go, Jersey. You've wanted to call the Giants your own for decades, now you can pay for it.

/whistles from across the river
 
2010-09-08 10:15:58 AM
Upon hearing of these large sums being payed by taxpayers in Jersey, Indy, and Seattle for stadiums that have been demolished, Dan Hampton accidentally blurted out "These stadiums only last about as long as a teenage girl's infatuation with a van der Sloot, but the taxpayers still keep enabling and giving money to the cause of their grief just like they were complete Holloways."

He had no real way of guessing that anyone might be offended by this.
 
2010-09-08 10:42:24 AM
Thereby bolstering the stance I've had for years: Not one thin dime for stadiums. they always make the same arguments... and it's always horseshiat. I've said it once and Ill say it again, if you're involved in a multi-billion dollar enterprise and you don't have money for the venue in which the games are played, your business model is broken.
 
2010-09-08 10:53:23 AM
JohnBigBootay: Thereby bolstering the stance I've had for years: Not one thin dime for stadiums. they always make the same arguments... and it's always horseshiat. I've said it once and Ill say it again, if you're involved in a multi-billion dollar enterprise and you don't have money for the venue in which the games are played, your business model is broken.

what kills me about these demands from owners is the idiot politicians who give them the money.

If it was me I would tell em to fark off and I would help them find a new city of suckers to pay for it. Then we could all still be fans watching on TV for a team and stadium that we DIDNT pay for while still getting the enjoyment factor.

Hell if i wanted to i can even road trip to the new town and buy a ticket to a game and get to experience it live without having the billions of dollars in debt.

IT MAKES NO SENSE. LET THEM GO. who cares if they are the LA Rams or the Atlanta flames or the washington nationals. At least your not paying to enrich some fat old douchebag who doesnt need the money.

Last i checked every single city that has lost a sports franchise still exists. They didnt magically sink into the earth the very next day.
 
2010-09-08 11:19:37 AM
jesus christ have you retards beaten this dan hampton thing into the ground already.
 
2010-09-08 11:22:55 AM
poisonedpawn78: what kills me about these demands from owners is the idiot politicians who give them the money.

People are stupid. It was abolutely the right thing to do but when they let the sonics leave we had a huge cadre of people who had never been political about anything... and they were all the sudden trying to organize recalls and impeachments, etc. For basketball.
 
2010-09-08 11:23:47 AM
grinding_journalist: ...meanwhile, the billionaire owners of sports franchises that insisted they NEED new stadiums to remain competitive/keep the team in town/etc manage to leave local taxpayers footing the bill.

I certainly like the baseball Cardinals' new (ish) stadium, and I'm glad they won the WS their first year there, but I certainly voted against its construction. Three times. So did the majority of St. Louisans. Three times. Somehow, it still got built.

God bless America.


It got built almost entirely on the Cardinals dime. The only public money that went into Busch Stadium III was to move highway ramps and sewer lines.

That's why Busch III doesn't have all the bells, whistles and fancy finishes that other new stadiums have. When compared to other new parks the new Busch Stadium is rather plain.

\Still waiting on Ballpark Village
\\At least we didn't make the same mistakes as Kansas City.
 
2010-09-08 11:51:48 AM
The thing that gets me is all this public money goes into the stadiums and if the game doesn't sell out it's blacked out?!? If one dime of public money is spent on a facility, they should not be able to black out any games played there. My money, my rules.
 
2010-09-08 11:56:07 AM
Dear NFL:

Have you wised up to the fact that the politicians in Los Angeles aren't going to hand you a $750 million stadium so that the Vikings (and whoever else is using moving as stadium extortion) can move here? If not, please face reality.

Regards,
HH

/Rot in hell Georgia Frontiere
//Your place is reserved there, Al Davis
 
2010-09-08 12:01:18 PM
mjbok: The thing that gets me is all this public money goes into the stadiums and if the game doesn't sell out it's blacked out?!? If one dime of public money is spent on a facility, they should not be able to black out any games played there. My money, my rules.

More importantly, why arent the cities in question getting 100% of the profits and revenue after expenses to pay down the debt? The owner should get fark all until his bills are paid. the same way the rest of the world works.
 
2010-09-08 12:05:08 PM
Henry Holland: Dear NFL:

Have you wised up to the fact that the politicians in Los Angeles aren't going to hand you a $750 million stadium so that the Vikings (and whoever else is using moving as stadium extortion) can move here? If not, please face reality.

Regards,
HH

/Rot in hell Georgia Frontiere
//Your place is reserved there, Al Davis


Ok..so not to go complete conspiracy nut but i believe the whole reason for the NFL in L.A. story angle, in Entourage this season, was to legitimately gather up interest in a fake team that the NFL was/is actually trying to market.
 
2010-09-08 12:06:13 PM
mjohnson71: grinding_journalist: ...meanwhile, the billionaire owners of sports franchises that insisted they NEED new stadiums to remain competitive/keep the team in town/etc manage to leave local taxpayers footing the bill.

I certainly like the baseball Cardinals' new (ish) stadium, and I'm glad they won the WS their first year there, but I certainly voted against its construction. Three times. So did the majority of St. Louisans. Three times. Somehow, it still got built.

God bless America.

It got built almost entirely on the Cardinals dime. The only public money that went into Busch Stadium III was to move highway ramps and sewer lines.

That's why Busch III doesn't have all the bells, whistles and fancy finishes that other new stadiums have. When compared to other new parks the new Busch Stadium is rather plain.

\Still waiting on Ballpark Village
\\At least we didn't make the same mistakes as Kansas City.


Don't get me wrong, I like the new stadium (still waiting for the village too) but my issue with it is that the people who would supposedly be going to the games said repeatedly "no, thanks though" and it got done anyway. The fact that a single cent of taxpayer money got spent doing anything for it when it was repeatedly shot down bothers me; I feel it doesn't bode well.
 
2010-09-08 12:08:14 PM
GoteamVenture: Ok..so not to go complete conspiracy nut but i believe the whole reason for the NFL in L.A. story angle, in Entourage this season, was to legitimately gather up interest in a fake team that the NFL was/is actually trying to market.

LA has shown time and time again that they don't support an NFL franchise. Screw 'em.
 
2010-09-08 12:19:20 PM
grinding_journalist: Don't get me wrong, I like the new stadium (still waiting for the village too) but my issue with it is that the people who would supposedly be going to the games said repeatedly "no, thanks though" and it got done anyway.

Same with safeco. The stadiums are owned by Paul Allen and Nintendo... yet every schmuck who rides in a taxi or stays in a hotel or eats in a restaurant pays for the stadiums. I have an idea - pay the players less and build your own.
 
2010-09-08 12:51:31 PM
110 million is ridiculous considering most new stadiums barely cost that much to start with. A lot of fail went into that one.

Pittsburgh, I think, owes about 20 million on PNC but that was intentional. They owed about 30 or 40 million and are spreading out the payback over a period of like 20 years or something.

/I need to find the local article about it.
 
2010-09-08 12:57:51 PM
jake3988: 110 million is ridiculous considering most new stadiums barely cost that much to start with.

huh ? what planet do you live on ?
 
2010-09-08 12:59:27 PM
I really hope people wake up to the whole 'stadiums on the public dime are a boondoggle and in some cases, a lovely white elephant'
 
2010-09-08 01:28:47 PM
So why do states still think that they should foot the bill for a stadium just to get a sports team?

/damn lobbyists...
 
2010-09-08 02:18:02 PM
grinding_journalist: mjohnson71: grinding_journalist: ...meanwhile, the billionaire owners of sports franchises that insisted they NEED new stadiums to remain competitive/keep the team in town/etc manage to leave local taxpayers footing the bill.

I certainly like the baseball Cardinals' new (ish) stadium, and I'm glad they won the WS their first year there, but I certainly voted against its construction. Three times. So did the majority of St. Louisans. Three times. Somehow, it still got built.

God bless America.

It got built almost entirely on the Cardinals dime. The only public money that went into Busch Stadium III was to move highway ramps and sewer lines.

That's why Busch III doesn't have all the bells, whistles and fancy finishes that other new stadiums have. When compared to other new parks the new Busch Stadium is rather plain.

\Still waiting on Ballpark Village
\\At least we didn't make the same mistakes as Kansas City.

Don't get me wrong, I like the new stadium (still waiting for the village too) but my issue with it is that the people who would supposedly be going to the games said repeatedly "no, thanks though" and it got done anyway. The fact that a single cent of taxpayer money got spent doing anything for it when it was repeatedly shot down bothers me; I feel it doesn't bode well.


Okay, maybe the Cardinals should have paid for the relocated I-64 ramps and new sewers. But at least area taxpayers didn't get taken to the cleaners on Busch Stadium III like
-we did with the Ed Jones Dome
-Hennepin county with the $500+ million Target Field
-Miami/Dade county for the Marlins new ballpark after they cooked the books
 
2010-09-08 02:29:38 PM
jake3988: 110 million is ridiculous considering most new stadiums barely cost that much to start with. A lot of fail went into that one.

Safeco + Qwest cost almost a billion dollars combined. I think you are behind the times on what new stadiums cost.
 
2010-09-08 02:43:12 PM
JohnBigBootay: jake3988: 110 million is ridiculous considering most new stadiums barely cost that much to start with. A lot of fail went into that one.

Safeco + Qwest cost almost a billion dollars combined. I think you are behind the times on what new stadiums cost.


Reverse cop math?
 
2010-09-08 03:19:17 PM
110 million is nothing compared to other things that cost tons of money sitting unused in the parking lot of the meadowlands.

The arena? The Racetrack, the farking unfinished mall that cost over a billion dollars and is empty?
 
2010-09-08 03:21:07 PM
and this is another reason i love college sports. sure some tax dollars might go into the stadium, though usually it's just booster money, but you know they can't threaten to move to a city that will pay.

not one dime of public money unless it's a city-owned team. they are private for profit enterprises so they can build their own farking stadiums (and pay property tax for all i care). of course i say the same thing about tax breaks for corporations that will "bring jobs," but no one listens to that either...
 
2010-09-08 03:25:31 PM
JohnBigBootay: jake3988: 110 million is ridiculous considering most new stadiums barely cost that much to start with. A lot of fail went into that one.

Safeco + Qwest cost almost a billion dollars combined. I think you are behind the times on what new stadiums cost.


Michigan Stadium cost ~217 million just to add luxury boxes to and some concourse work. No way any kind of new NFL stadium gets built for 110 million.

/and it will pay for itself within 3 years, at no cost to the tax payer
 
2010-09-08 04:40:09 PM
ha-ha-guy: /and it will pay for itself within 3 years, at no cost to the tax payer

Of course it will. All while revitalizing the community and providing scads of lucrative long-term jobs.
 
2010-09-08 05:08:00 PM
I use NoScript, so the graphs on the side didn't show cleanly. It enrages me.

For example...
-Veterans' Stadium: built in 1971, demolished 2004. Cost $60M, there's still $300k left on the books. Until 2020.
-the Astrodome: built in 1965, no longer in use. Cost $27M, taxpayers are STILL on the hook for $32M. Until 2032.
-the Hoosier Dome: built in 1984, demolished 2008. Cost $78M, the public will pay $61M between now and 2021.

Stadia paid for 100% with public funds:
Candlestick Park, Raymond James Stadium, Lambeau (but it's a publicly-owned franchise), Superdome, Edward Jones Dome. $1.5 BILLION on 11 Superbowl wins.
 
2010-09-08 06:11:29 PM
mjbok: LA has shown time and time again that they don't support an NFL franchise. Screw 'em.
blogs.discovermagazine.com

Two names for you: Georgia Frontiere and Al Davis. If you don't know the history, how about learning it before making dumbass remarks for everyone to see?
 
2010-09-08 08:14:28 PM
damn north jersey screwing the rest of us.
 
2010-09-08 08:24:09 PM
So far this season (excluding Nov. 14 games) the Rams, which are headquartered in Los Angeles but play their games in Anaheim, have had an average home attendance of just over 48,000 fans, according to the team. The Raiders, which are based in El Segundo and play their home games at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, have a home game average attendance of about 41,000, according to a Coliseum spokeswoman. For the past two years, both teams have averaged between 40,000 and 50,000 fans per home game.

The above was a clip from an old article on the web.

48k? In LA? You can say the ownership/players, etc. sucked, but it is up youth "fans" to support the team. Look at Green Bay. They sucked for a long long time, but they still sold out every game ever and have a huge waiting list. Blame greed and the owners all you want, but if a team can't sell-out in LA, blame the fans.
 
2010-09-08 10:34:26 PM
mjbok: The above was a clip from an old article on the web.

Christ what a dumbass you are. Please please please don't ever breed. I found your article, it's from 1993.

The Raiders were in Los Angeles until the end of the 1994 season. Al Davis had been negotiating with Oakland since 1989, announcing in 1991 that he was going back to Oakland, but he was such a piece of shiat that it still took 3 years to finalize a deal. This was after he screwed over the Coliseum, Hollywood Park and the notorious Irwindale, who were dumb enough to give him $10 million to build a stadium next to a rock quarry. So, *gasp* in the 4 years after the shiatheel owner of the team indicated he was leaving, attendance dropped! Wow! What a scathing indictment of Los Angeles sports fans!

The Rams were gods here when they played at the Coliseum, the first pro team here, only USC football, UCLA basketball and the Dodgers came close. The Coliseum also forced integration on the NFL, they would only let the Rams move there if the color barrier ended in the NFL (which it did in 1946).

So they moved to Anaheim Stadium in 1979 and look at the setup:

www.andrewclem.com

Unless you sat in the third base seats, that placed *sucked* for watching football, if you were in the upper deck in right field, you might as well have been in Tustin for all it mattered. Great, they moved from an obviously old stadium in a bad neighborhood (the Coliseum), but a great place to watch football to a stadium that sucked for watching football and was too big for baseball (the Angels couldn't wait to tear down the outfield seats).

So, the Rams leave their historic base, move to a part of Southern California that had no tradition of supporting sports teams, play in a shiatty stadium that was almost impossible to create an atmosphere in and guess what? Once the Rams started sucking (ca. trading Eric Dickerson in 1987) and Frontiere started to talk about moving the team (ca. 1990), attendance dropped. She couldn't extort a new stadium out of Anaheim, her husband and her having previously failed in Los Angeles, so she farked off to St. Louis. And...surprise surprise, the Rams current owners are moaning about their crappy stadium and are making the usual "build us a new one or we'll leave" noises, for a stadium that opened in 1995!

Good for the fans here for not supporting teams that are run by scumbags who want to leave at the first sign of not getting their way in terms of getting stadiums built at the taxpayers expense.

They sucked for a long long time, but they still sold out every game ever and have a huge waiting list.

Yeah, when I think of exciting entertainment capitals with dozens of options for things to do and the orgs competing for that entertainment dollar doing all they can to lure people --say, Los Angeles, Tokyo, London, Chicago, Berlin, Paris, Manhattan-- I also think of farking Green Bay, Wisconsin. [insert 20 eye rolling emoticons here]

And all those years in the wilderness for the Pack (1968-1991), what real incentive did they have to get better? The lemming fans still sold out their games, the TV revenue was coming in and they were living off their glorious past in merchandise sales. See also: the Cincinnati Bungles (minus the sellouts and glorious past).
 
2010-09-08 10:41:01 PM
Pvt Joker: ... and this marks the spot where Jimmy Hoffa will be buried.

was gonna post that- thanks for saving me carpal lincoln tunnel syndrome!
 
2010-09-08 11:14:06 PM
Henry Holland: Yeah, when I think of exciting entertainment capitals with dozens of options for things to do and the orgs competing for that entertainment dollar doing all they can to lure people --say, Los Angeles, Tokyo, London, Chicago, Berlin, Paris, Manhattan-- I also think of farking Green Bay, Wisconsin. [insert 20 eye rolling emoticons here]

And all those years in the wilderness for the Pack (1968-1991), what real incentive did they have to get better? The lemming fans still sold out their games, the TV revenue was coming in and they were living off their glorious past in merchandise sales.


You might have had a point, but veered way off the tracks at the end. No, Green Bay is not a cultural mecca with multiple competing things, you're right about that. But it wasn't fans from just Green Bay, it was fans from through-out the state and through-out the country. I think that is the part you are unclear on, the FAN part. Lemming fans? They're called fans. "Fans" who stop supporting a team when they fall out of championship contention are not fans, they are band-wagon fans. It doesn't take a true fan to support a champion, it takes a true fan to support a team that sucks so hard they remove oxygen from the stadium (see Detroit fans for reference).

Don't happen to like the owners? Kind of sucks to be you unless you are one. Fortunately the Packers are owned by the fans. I know all about bad owners living in Ohio, but look at the Browns' fans. That team has sucked since they were rebooted, but they have a rabid fan base, but I suppose since it's not LA you'd just say that the only reason they're fans is because there is nothing else to do in Cleveland. You'd be wrong, you can walk on the riverfront and roast marshmellows on the flames coming off the river.
 
2010-09-09 12:51:30 AM
 
2010-09-09 03:50:43 AM
Hard to find NFL attendance figures...but for some perspective to back up Henry Holland:
Los Angeles Rams (of Anaheim)
1989 8 470,770 58,846
1990 8 479,356 59,920
1991 8 412,685 51,586
1992 8 414,502 51,813
1993 8 363,211 45,401
1994 8 338,497 42,312

Anyone know of somewhere to find the Raiders attendance figures? Or really just any team's figures? Be interested in seeing the drop-off from when the Raiders have the preseason game in Oakland in 89 and then the announcement to move in 91.
 
2010-09-09 09:18:00 AM
L.A. has shown repeatedly that they don't want to support an NFL franchise.
 
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