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(Politico)   Number of Democratic House members who voted for ObamaCare: 219. Number of Democratic House members who have run ads bragging about voting for ObamaCare: 0   (dyn.politico.com) divider line 443
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996 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Sep 2010 at 12:18 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-09-07 05:02:33 PM
tcan: One of the best ways to improve health outcomes and lower costs would be an improvement in lifestyle choices

That one statement defines the problem - other systems of medical care work in other countries because they are conditioned - and have been for generations - to eat right and exercise. We have a culture of "Me" and nothing is going to get in the way of what we want. Eating too much bacon, not a problem, someone else will pay for your Lipitor.
 
2010-09-07 05:16:22 PM
HansensDisease: Wow. Are you so stupid to not know that SlothMD parrots the Tea Party line most of the time?

You really are an illiterate farktard, aren't you?
 
2010-09-07 05:20:11 PM
HansensDisease: The Numbers: HansensDisease: The Numbers: slothMD: HansensDisease: I re-iterate: anyone who uses the phrase "ObamaCare" IN HEADLINES is an idiot.

...just as much an idiot as anyone who uses the term "Teabagger."

This

You called yourselves Teabaggers before anyone else did.



You're both morons with short memories. I guess history and facts don't fit well in your tiny little pin heads.

Wow. Are you really so mentally incapable that you're unable to cope with someone criticising the use of 'Teabagger' without immediately knee-jerking to the assumption that the person is one?

Wow. Are you so stupid to not know that SlothMD parrots the Tea Party line most of the time?

You obviously don't hang out in these threads very often.

/Seriously. Don't let me stop you two from exercising your constitutional right to dangle your balls together.


So basically your answer to my question is that yes, you are in fact mentally incapable.

Irrespective of what SlothMD might usually post, you chose to label me a teabagger based solely on the fact I agreed that the use of 'teabagger' was as idiotic as the use of 'Obamacare'. That makes you an idiot.
 
2010-09-07 05:21:11 PM
I'm sorry, that last post was immoderate. Let me try again:

I say, HansensDisease, I can't help but notice that you exhibit all the signs of a total and irreparable lack of comprehension as regards the English language. Would you appreciate assistance in locating a remedial English class near you?
 
2010-09-07 05:23:57 PM
The Numbers: So basically your answer to my question is that yes, you are in fact mentally incapable.

That would be the correct answer. He is utterly incapable of understanding degrees and distinctions of position, to the point that he has completely missed the fact that I routinely call them Teatards and hold the vast majority of the movement in utter contempt, and in fact called them idiots in this very thread. No, the fact that I think using the term "teabagger" makes the speaker sound lack a slack-jawed moron with a middle-school level of humor *must* mean that I sympathize with them, despite my obvious disdain for the Teatards. Such is the mind of rigid team player.
 
2010-09-07 05:25:52 PM
* Prohibit pre-existing condition exclusions for children in all new plans;
* Provide immediate access to insurance for uninsured Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition through a temporary high-risk pool;
* Prohibit dropping people from coverage when they get sick in all individual plans;
* Lower seniors' prescription drug prices by beginning to close the donut hole;
* Offer tax credits to small businesses to purchase coverage;
* Eliminate lifetime limits and restrictive annual limits on benefits in all plans;
* Require plans to cover an enrollee's dependent children until age 26;
* Require new plans to cover preventive services and immunizations without cost-sharing;
* Ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions;
* Require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs.


Biggest issues that I have revolve around 1) making insurance mandatory and 2) making employers responsible for your insurance.

If we are going to open the medical cabinets for everyone for every reason (regardless of circumstances - no personal responsibility) then it makes sense to make insurance mandatory. You need to have the tax premium dollars from every young American that doesn't have medical issues to cover the costs of those that do have issues and those who aren't going to pay (homeless, illegal immigrants, etc). But if it is your responsibility to have insurance, why is it the business owners responsibility to buy it? If you are going to change the laws, then change them so that there is a shared risk pool and any individual is in the same risk pool as everyone else. The way it stands now, if I hire a person who develops cancer, I've just shot down the ability for all of my other employees to be able to afford insurance through me and my pool - with my providing it (and paying for a large portion of it) manditory. Hiring someone just became a whole lot riskier at a time when we are trying to encourage companies to put new employees on the payroll.

And how did we get to the point where 26 year olds are still dependent children? These snotty nose little bastards need to be in the workforce generating taxable income. Alexander the Great was 20 years old when he took over as king of Macedonia, Joan of Arc was a victorious general at the age of 17, and our snotty little brats are still sitting at home in their parents basements playing X-Box until they're 26?
 
2010-09-07 05:36:07 PM
Tonka Truck: Biggest issues that I have revolve around 1) making insurance mandatory and 2) making employers responsible for your insurance.

Indeed.
If I were designing a health-care system, it would provide catastrophic coverage for everyone, and incentivize HRA/HSA accounts, with direct assistance to those who need it.

As a second option, I would look long and hard at the French system - it's simple, elegant, more free-market than any of the other major systems (including the current US system), and effective.
 
2010-09-07 05:47:58 PM
Continuing to use an incorrect label, long after the error has been pointed out many times, just to needle and belittle you opponent is immature.

So typical of the Democrat party.
 
2010-09-07 05:49:27 PM
Person A has a "right" to healthcare.

Person B must provide it?
 
2010-09-07 05:51:21 PM
slothMD: Tonka Truck: Biggest issues that I have revolve around 1) making insurance mandatory and 2) making employers responsible for your insurance.

Indeed.
If I were designing a health-care system, it would provide catastrophic coverage for everyone, and incentivize HRA/HSA accounts, with direct assistance to those who need it.

As a second option, I would look long and hard at the French system - it's simple, elegant, more free-market than any of the other major systems (including the current US system), and effective.


Increase the Medicaid tax enough to cover every citizen in the event of catastrophic care. Give hospital ER's authorization to triage patients and turn away non-critical care patients (send them to a clinic run via Medicaid dollars). If you want more care, you pay for more care.

Also, remove the dependence on businesses to manage your own personal healthcare program. Private sector businesses are not governmental entities (yet), but are already responsible for reporting and paying your income taxes (under financial and criminal penalties if they make a mistake), are responsible for managing illegal immigration via the I-9 process (under financial and criminal penalties if they make a mistake), and are now on the verge of being required to acquire and pay for healthcare for both employees and their dependents.

Is it any wonder why companies are reluctant to hire new employees?
 
2010-09-07 05:57:53 PM
barrygoldwater: Person A has a "right" to healthcare.

Person B must provide it?


First define who person "A" is. From my experience, this ranges from individuals who through no fault of their own lost their jobs and their ability to pay for insurance, to whole families who come across the border knowing that they can get free healthcare in the US (for example, healthcare for a premature baby that has had absolutely no prenatal care), to individuals who purposefully live "off the grid" because they don't believe in paying taxes or integrating with society.

Person "B" is every hard-working tax payer.

I seem to remember a story from childhood about an ant and a grasshopper, but the way I remember it, the ant was the good guy. I guess times change.
 
2010-09-07 05:58:02 PM
barrygoldwater: Derp

Herp?
 
2010-09-07 06:14:11 PM
slothMD: You really are an illiterate farktard, aren't you?

Oh please. Get real.

The Numbers: Irrespective of what SlothMD might usually post, you chose to label me a teabagger based solely on the fact I agreed that the use of 'teabagger' was as idiotic as the use of 'Obamacare'. That makes you an idiot.

You're using the term right now. What's that make you?

I mean, besides butthurt over a word that the tea party made up itself.

I wasn't even the one who brought the term up. I'm just quoting you folks. Go back and see for yourself (2010-09-07 08:33:51 AM). And then go shut your stupid gob.
 
2010-09-07 06:16:21 PM
FubarBDilligaf: HansensDisease: Which is the Tea Party themselves. Still^. Ironic, ain't it?

Don't pay attention to your own links, do you? From your link...

Just released video, "I'm Proud to be a Teabagger", has just been released to coincide with today's Tax Day Tea Parties across the country. The far-left radicals (including many in the the mainstream media) have used the pejorative "Teabagger", as a way to ridicule the powerful national movement that's beyond their comprehension.

So the movie used the term, after the left had been using it....

Still a stupid term to use.



It was used after the right used it first. Moron.
 
2010-09-07 06:35:25 PM
Dem-o-rats

just tell every one you are a proud dem who voted for Obamacare

that should do it,,,, and you will win with

spend baby spend .......as your theme song
 
2010-09-07 06:51:56 PM
Tonka Truck: And how did we get to the point where 26 year olds are still dependent children? These snotty nose little bastards need to be in the workforce generating taxable income. Alexander the Great was 20 years old when he took over as king of Macedonia, Joan of Arc was a victorious general at the age of 17, and our snotty little brats are still sitting at home in their parents basements playing X-Box until they're 26?

Ever consider that they are out earning taxable income, but their employer is unable/unwilling to provide health insurance?
 
2010-09-07 06:52:21 PM
winterwhile: Dem-o-rats

just tell every one you are a proud dem who voted for Obamacare

that should do it,,,, and you will win with

spend baby spend .......as your theme song


I am always happy to find that those who disagree with me about politics are also usually illiterate.
 
2010-09-07 06:53:05 PM
log_jammin: pippi longstocking: Unless you're dead there is no way to get out of buying health insurance.

be poor.


Join the military.

Get elected to congress.
 
2010-09-07 06:57:52 PM
Corvus: Opposite: Corvus: Opposite: None of which matters because at it's core it is wrong. Why you feel you have to right to force me to pay for someone else's health I'll never understand. Sure I understand that it would be nice, a sweet gesture. But I'll decide where my charity goes, tyvm.

YOU ALREADY DID THAT"S HOW INSURANCE WORKS YOU DUMBASS!!!!!

I don't have insurance....



dumbass.

So then you leach. If you can't pay WE ALL PAY FOR YOU. and you think that is ok?


If you get into an accident and you can't pay WE COVER YOU and you think that is fair?


Why not? You believe non-citizens should get free care, why not actual tax paying citizens.
 
2010-09-07 06:59:53 PM
Corvus: No you don't understand how healthcare works now or how HCR works.


More people will be paying FOR THEIR OWN HEALTH CARE UNDER HCR

So you will be paying for LESS OTHER PEOPLE!!


You can't get that through your head.


Since the actual people who voted for it don't have any idea what is in it, no, you are wrong.
 
2010-09-07 07:06:11 PM
mrshowrules: Phil Herup: tcan: I never thought I'd say this but I agree with Michelle Obama. One of the best ways to improve health outcomes and lower costs would be an improvement in lifestyle choices.



99.9% of all primary care physicians in the USA say this 50 times a day.


Our lifestyle is a huge contributor to our poor health. The docs in the USA kick arse in spite of these morans shoving processed shiat into their pieholes non stop while smoking and boozing.

Have you looked at smoking in the US versus Europe?

If only there was a way to look at health outcomes that don't rely on this issue. Oh, I know, what about just looking at amaenable deaths. If you are correct and the US health care system rule and the population is just inheritantly unhealthy, they you should look good in a comparison that just looks at amenable deaths.

Let's check the board. Sorry, Phil you missed again and you have no life lines yet. Have you tried playing the race card yet?


So then what you are really saying is that Michelle Obama is stupid, doesn't know what the fark she's talking about and should just shut her whore mouth.
 
2010-09-07 07:10:44 PM
soy_bomb: /Failure is when

anomit.com

Failure is your circular logic.

You are fail, but I would never ask you to explain fail any more than I'd ask a retard to explain what Down Syndrome is.
 
2010-09-07 07:33:37 PM
dustman81: Tonka Truck: And how did we get to the point where 26 year olds are still dependent children? These snotty nose little bastards need to be in the workforce generating taxable income. Alexander the Great was 20 years old when he took over as king of Macedonia, Joan of Arc was a victorious general at the age of 17, and our snotty little brats are still sitting at home in their parents basements playing X-Box until they're 26?

Ever consider that they are out earning taxable income, but their employer is unable/unwilling to provide health insurance?


This falls back to a concept that is pivital to the discussion. Is a business owner an employer, or the person responsible for this persons life? Last time I checked, a business owner provides a product or a service. He may or may not need employees to fulfill his business needs. However, where does it say that as an employer, he is required to pay a wage (contract for services rendered) AND provide for this persons healthcare. As it stands, businesses are also anticipated to have to provide a substancial portion of the employees family premiums as well.
 
2010-09-07 08:16:54 PM
Hoopido: mrshowrules: Phil Herup: tcan: I never thought I'd say this but I agree with Michelle Obama. One of the best ways to improve health outcomes and lower costs would be an improvement in lifestyle choices.



99.9% of all primary care physicians in the USA say this 50 times a day.


Our lifestyle is a huge contributor to our poor health. The docs in the USA kick arse in spite of these morans shoving processed shiat into their pieholes non stop while smoking and boozing.

Have you looked at smoking in the US versus Europe?

If only there was a way to look at health outcomes that don't rely on this issue. Oh, I know, what about just looking at amaenable deaths. If you are correct and the US health care system rule and the population is just inheritantly unhealthy, they you should look good in a comparison that just looks at amenable deaths.

Let's check the board. Sorry, Phil you missed again and you have no life lines yet. Have you tried playing the race card yet?

So then what you are really saying is that Michelle Obama is stupid, doesn't know what the fark she's talking about and should just shut her whore mouth.


I guess I am saying you are the retard for not knowing the difference between amenable deaths versus life expectancy.

Michelle understands that lifestyle is bad for your health, causes increased health costs and reduces life expectancy.

I'm saying (which you don't understand obviously) is regardless of the health of Americans, the quality of your health care (statistical outcomes) is very weak compared to other industrialized countries (i.e., amenable deaths, infant mortality).
 
2010-09-07 08:38:40 PM
Yankees Team Gynecologist: Failure is your circular logic. You are fail, but I would never ask you to explain fail any more than I'd ask a retard to explain what Down Syndrome is.

The only thing you have to rebut the Democrats abandonment of HCR are retard jokes. That must be depressing for you. Buck up little trooper and think about Hope and Change.
 
2010-09-07 09:24:48 PM
mrshowrules: Hoopido: mrshowrules: Phil Herup: tcan: I never thought I'd say this but I agree with Michelle Obama. One of the best ways to improve health outcomes and lower costs would be an improvement in lifestyle choices.



99.9% of all primary care physicians in the USA say this 50 times a day.


Our lifestyle is a huge contributor to our poor health. The docs in the USA kick arse in spite of these morans shoving processed shiat into their pieholes non stop while smoking and boozing.

Have you looked at smoking in the US versus Europe?

If only there was a way to look at health outcomes that don't rely on this issue. Oh, I know, what about just looking at amaenable deaths. If you are correct and the US health care system rule and the population is just inheritantly unhealthy, they you should look good in a comparison that just looks at amenable deaths.

Let's check the board. Sorry, Phil you missed again and you have no life lines yet. Have you tried playing the race card yet?

So then what you are really saying is that Michelle Obama is stupid, doesn't know what the fark she's talking about and should just shut her whore mouth.

I guess I am saying you are the retard for not knowing the difference between amenable deaths versus life expectancy.

Michelle understands that lifestyle is bad for your health, causes increased health costs and reduces life expectancy.


I'm saying (which you don't understand obviously) is regardless of the health of Americans, the quality of your health care (statistical outcomes) is very weak compared to other industrialized countries (i.e., amenable deaths, infant mortality).


You clearly are just being intellectually dishonest . I already explained how the amenable death stats are WORTHLESS and the infant mortality stats are corrupt (in spite) of your listed revised definition.

America has the best health care on Earth, only desperate left wing committees that think up elaborate metrics to rank it substandard think otherwise.
 
2010-09-07 10:26:14 PM
soy_bomb: The only thing you have to rebut the Democrats abandonment of HCR are retard jokes.

That was no joke.

But I hope for your sake that your circular logic was.
 
2010-09-08 12:02:22 AM
Derp

Herp?


well said, solid argument there, backed up by the usual leftist facts and logic.

Jesus, no wonder you clowns couldn't close the deal on your bullshiat healthcare reform after a two year sales pitch.

The bill past and no body dares admit that they supported it.

"Don't kick me out of office! I stood up to obama and pelosi..." derp
 
2010-09-08 12:51:16 AM
barrygoldwater: Wharrgarbl
 
2010-09-08 02:17:34 AM
barrygoldwater:
The bill past and no body dares admit that they supported it.

"Don't kick me out of office! I stood up to obama and pelosi..." derp



See me after class. I am going to need to schedule a parent/teacher conference with your mom and dad to see if we can arrange for transfer to a website that is better suited to your skill-set.
 
2010-09-08 02:28:04 PM
Opposite: BeesNuts:

/imatroll!

/ez


Whatever floats your boat Mr. Galt.
 
2010-09-08 04:52:02 PM
Phil Herup: . I already explained how the amenable death stats are WORTHLESS and the infant mortality stats are corrupt (in spite) of your listed revised definition.

America has the best health care on Earth, only desperate left wing committees that think up elaborate metrics to rank it substandard think otherwise.


Correction: You stated your opinion that amenable death stats are worthless because "people die from all sorts of things" and "death is inevitable." Of course, you refuse to admit that you don't understand the definition of "amenable deaths" - that being deaths that can be prevented with proper existing treatment. That is the entire basis of health care! If someone were to die of polio, that is an amenable death due to the existence of a polio vaccine. You can't just chalk it up to "Welp, shiat happens."

Secondly, you refuse to acknowledge the use of infant mortality stats because you deem them left-leaning. You dismiss these metrics that decry the US as substandard, yet you fail to provide any metrics of your own, right/left-leaning or otherwise, that portray the US as "the best health care on Earth."

Chanting USA! USA! USA! does not constitute a valid argument or provide any proof for your viewpoint.
 
2010-09-08 05:34:58 PM
wantedbadass: Of course, you refuse to admit that you don't understand the definition of "amenable deaths" - that being deaths that can be prevented with proper existing treatment.


You have no idea of the complexity of the human body do you?

People still die of all sorts of curable diseases every day, while under the care of a physician.


wantedbadass: Secondly, you refuse to acknowledge the use of infant mortality stats because you deem them left-leaning.

They are corrupted.


wantedbadass: You dismiss these metrics that decry the US as substandard


US substandard? Please. Spread moar lies. We have the greatest healthcare system in the world. This is a fact.


Do you work in healthcare?
 
2010-09-08 07:05:12 PM
Phil Herup: People still die of all sorts of curable diseases every day, while under the care of a physician.

Yes, they do. And, statistically, people die of curable diseases equally among all countries studied. Thus, this is factored and negated in the amenable deaths statistic.

Unless you're saying that only Americans die of unexpected complications due to the "complexities of the human body."


Phil Herup: We have the greatest healthcare system in the world. This is a fact.

Facts are based on data and statistics. What data, study, or metrics do you use to cite this as fact? If you refuse to use life expectancy, amenable deaths, or infant mortality rates, what exactly are you using to determine that the US has the greatest health care system in the world?
 
2010-09-08 08:08:50 PM
wantedbadass: Facts are based on data and statistics. What data, study, or metrics do you use to cite this as fact?


We have the best medical training programs, we have the best equipment, we have the best nurses, docs,and techs.

Not to mention the most wicked plaintiff's attorneys on Earth.

These are facts that outweigh your bullshiat data.


You can shove your left wing metrics. The whole WHO metric is barely based on delivery of quality care. It is primarily economics based.


Even the WHO admits the USA delivers the best response to then needs of the patient. Isn't that was healthcare is all about in the first place?
 
2010-09-08 08:30:53 PM
Phil Herup: These are facts that outweigh your bullshiat data.

I beg of you to provide any sort of proof or study that support these "facts." Otherwise they're just considered opinion.

For the record, the top Medical Schools in 2010 are:

1. Harvard (US)
2. Cambridge (UK)
3. Oxford (UK)
4. Standford (US)

Source.

So the US is amazing at churning out medical education, though they are essentially neck-and-neck with the UK in this department. Of course, none of that matters when you consider that all these universities accept students from around the world, many of whom later return to their own countries to practice.

You also ignore the very important aspect of accessibility. Even if the US *can* provide the best medical service in the world (and all studies suggest that it does not), they fail in the accessibility department. The best medical care in the world is useless if patients cannot afford to partake in these miraculous services.
 
2010-09-08 11:33:02 PM
wantedbadass: So the US is amazing at churning out medical education, though they are essentially neck-and-neck with the UK in this department.


No Way. Never.

The US has so many super top notch medical training programs in each major metropolitan city.

The USA is the cutting edge of medical training.


wantedbadass: You also ignore the very important aspect of accessibility.


Oh please... lefty BS


wantedbadass: Even if the US *can* provide the best medical service in the world (and all studies suggest that it does not)


In your dreams.


Question?? What do you do for a living??



wantedbadass: The best medical care in the world is useless if patients cannot afford to partake in these miraculous services.


I love how you use the word "accessibility" and actually mean "affordability"


You are nothing more than a WHO clone.


Seriously... do you practice health care as a profession?
 
2010-09-09 01:27:28 AM
Phil Herup: Seriously... do you practice health care as a profession?

I work in health services, though not as a doctor. In Canada. Neither of which are relevant to the discussion.

Affordability is a key component to accessibility, especially when it comes to health care. What good is the best medical care if only 10% of the population can comfortably afford necessary procedures?

I'm genuinely interested to hear why you consider the metrics to be "left wing." What beef do you have with the WHO? Are they conducting these studies specifically to make the US look bad compared to other countries?

You also seem to just dismiss any facts and stats that anybody throws at you and respond with opinion. Repeating something over and over doesn't necessarily make it true. It doesn't make it false either, but do you have any actual proof for any of the claims that you make? I'll repeat the question again, since you ignored my request the last 3 times I asked:

Do you have any proof for any of the claims that you make?

I'm willing to concede on any or all of your points if you can show me some data, stats, or studies that back up the points you make. If you can't or won't show me something, anything, to back up your statements, we'll just end up going round and round in a circle. I'll give you some facts, you'll refute them as left-leaning without actually disproving my points nor proving your own. Repeat ad nauseam.
 
2010-09-09 07:49:10 AM
wantedbadass: What good is the best medical care if only 10% of the population can comfortably afford necessary procedures?



So you acknowledge the USA may in fact have the highest quality care on the planet. Even the WHO says this is so. Where do they say this? In the fine print. Where we are number 1 in responding to the needs of the patient.


They just dilute it and put it on the back burner and hide it behind numerous economic and financial metrics. Pure BS.

The amenable death metric is retarded. Were autopsies performed on 100% of these cases and the ruling was the death was preventable? Or was the metric itself that of the opinion the data gatherer.

A data gatherer whose bias was probably tainted already, because what kind of person would be gathering such data in the first place.

I know you know that deep down I am correct.


.wantedbadass: I work in health services, though not as a doctor. In Canada. Neither of which are relevant to the discussion.


I think it is, when you are slinging around metrics without a full grasp of the dynamics of the big picture.
 
2010-09-09 01:10:37 PM
You're right, Phil. I guess I was wrong. Who needs facts and figures when truthiness tells me that the WHO fudged the numbers. I took a look at the fine print and it said this:

"USA! USA! USA!"

My mistake.
 
2010-09-09 01:58:46 PM
wantedbadass: My mistake.



Well, what do you know about the delivery of healthcare?


What do you know about the human body? What do you know about outcomes?
 
2010-09-09 02:37:22 PM
I don't know anything about anything. The only thing I know is that amenable death metrics are bullshiat, infant mortality rates are useless, and the WHO is left-wing bias. My conclusion is that I've been blinded by socialist hokum masquerading as science and that the USA is #1.

I thought the WHO knew about the delivery of health care, the human body, and the desirable outcomes of medical practices. I've been proven wrong by your irrefutable logic and have seen the light that whatever they report is completely fabricated BS using bias metrics and economic mumbo-jumbo to make the US look inferior to other countries.
 
2010-09-09 05:07:46 PM
wantedbadass: I thought the WHO knew about the delivery of health care, the human body, and the desirable outcomes of medical practices. I've been proven wrong by your irrefutable logic and have seen the light that whatever they report is completely fabricated BS using bias metrics and economic mumbo-jumbo to make the US look inferior to other countries.



[high five]
 
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