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(Guardian)   Class of 2010 warned of record 70 applicants for every job, told to flip burgers to build skills   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 233
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8728 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Aug 2010 at 10:00 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-08-30 09:46:50 AM
FTA: The number of applicants chasing each job is so high that nearly 78% of employers are insisting on a 2.1 degree, rendering a 2.2 marginal and effectively ruling out any graduates with a third, according to the survey published tomorrow.

Translation: Graduate in the top 50% of your class or you won't be considered worthy of much.

Translation's Translation: Not much has changed.
 
2010-08-30 09:59:54 AM
There are lots of other skills required and valued, like people skills

Yes, in fact consider telling potential employers how much of a "people person" you are.
 
2010-08-30 10:03:19 AM
yeah, but the same 70 super unqualified people are applying for every job so don't get too down.
 
2010-08-30 10:05:28 AM
That's nothing. This past year, an assistant professorship in the philosophy department at Boise State University had over 700 applications.
 
2010-08-30 10:06:17 AM
I hope they joined a good fraternity.

Link (new window)
 
2010-08-30 10:07:36 AM
logic523: That's nothing. This past year, an assistant professorship in the philosophy department at Boise State University had over 700 applications.

I guess they got fed up with philosophizing and not being paid to do it.
 
2010-08-30 10:08:17 AM
Hyppy: FTA: The number of applicants chasing each job is so high that nearly 78% of employers are insisting on a 2.1 degree, rendering a 2.2 marginal and effectively ruling out any graduates with a third, according to the survey published tomorrow.

Translation: Graduate in the top 50% of your class or you won't be considered worthy of much.

Translation's Translation: Not much has changed.


I just had to google 2.1 degree to figure out what on earth that sentence meant. I realize now that it's a uk article and I guess it is similar to a 3.0 gpa or higher over here in the states.
 
2010-08-30 10:09:04 AM
8InchFloppy: I hope they joined a good fraternity.

Link (new window)


That doesn't mean he's gay or anything, it's a fraternity prank.
 
2010-08-30 10:09:05 AM
i can feel that pain....

/mechanical engineer for hire
 
2010-08-30 10:10:17 AM
I got my BS in health care administration last year and I've been working in a hospital for a little over two years now. It's hard as fark to find a job out there. I'm always told in interviews I'm lucky to have a jerb and be interviewing, as well as not having any loans. I haven't found anything yet to make me wanna jump ship (current job is OK, hoping to find something better soon.)

/degree is semi-useless
//glad I'm not in some crappy for profit law school like some people I know
 
2010-08-30 10:12:46 AM
Also, if you look up nepotism in the dictionary, the place I work at comes up immediately. 90% of the people in this dept have family working or have been here so long they just kinda stuck around. It really pays to know someone.
 
2010-08-30 10:13:30 AM
There is always the gold pole.

/just sayin
 
2010-08-30 10:21:03 AM
Kaka: There is always the gold pole.

/just sayin


artattack.transworld.net

/Hot
 
2010-08-30 10:22:50 AM
sn0wblind: logic523: That's nothing. This past year, an assistant professorship in the philosophy department at Boise State University had over 700 applications.

I guess they got fed up with philosophizing and not being paid to do it.




i.ytimg.com

Did you bullshiat last week?
Did you 'try' to bullshiat last week?
 
2010-08-30 10:23:22 AM
This is the outcome of the Government (pick a colour, red, blue, doesn't matter which) massaging the unemployment figures by encouraging more and more people to go to University to read degrees in useless subjects that they will never need or use.

The outcome has been a sort of qualification inflation -Jobs that once needed GCSE ask for A levels and jobs that needed A levels demand degrees. I notice the Guardian is fretting about the educational "elite" graduates. I am sure that the job situation is no better for those leaving the education system at 16 or 18.

My sympathies to all the young folk who are discovering the horrible bloody mess that we are in at the moment. Going to take a lot of years for them to get their feet under them.
 
2010-08-30 10:23:51 AM
Headso: yeah, but the same 70 super unqualified people are applying for every job so don't get too down.

Except that they aren't unqualified. HR's just lazy.
 
2010-08-30 10:25:18 AM
When I was at university in the UK I was told to expect 100 applicants for every job I applied for, so I'm not sure how this is worse.

Also, it could just mean that it's a lot easier to apply for jobs than it was in the past. Even as late as 10 years ago applying for a good job usually meant writing a lengthy cover letter, printing out a copy of your CV, making a bunch of phone calls, and so on and so on. Now you can just go online and click a few buttons. I think the ease of applying for jobs has paradoxically made it harder for people without connections to get hired. It's too easy for HR people to just not decide to wade through dozens of online applications, especially when half of them are probably complete write-offs, and just hire the guy they already knew.
 
2010-08-30 10:25:53 AM
Valksy: This is the outcome of the Government (pick a colour, red, blue, doesn't matter which) massaging the unemployment figures by encouraging more and more people to go to University to read degrees in useless subjects that they will never need or use.

The outcome has been a sort of qualification inflation -Jobs that once needed GCSE ask for A levels and jobs that needed A levels demand degrees. I notice the Guardian is fretting about the educational "elite" graduates. I am sure that the job situation is no better for those leaving the education system at 16 or 18.

My sympathies to all the young folk who are discovering the horrible bloody mess that we are in at the moment. Going to take a lot of years for them to get their feet under them.


SO MUCH FARKING THIS.

How about just making it harder for them to refuse people (esp. with inflated requirements) or to permatemp people?
 
2010-08-30 10:26:08 AM
r0Be: Hyppy: FTA: The number of applicants chasing each job is so high that nearly 78% of employers are insisting on a 2.1 degree, rendering a 2.2 marginal and effectively ruling out any graduates with a third, according to the survey published tomorrow.

Translation: Graduate in the top 50% of your class or you won't be considered worthy of much.

Translation's Translation: Not much has changed.

I just had to google 2.1 degree to figure out what on earth that sentence meant. I realize now that it's a uk article and I guess it is similar to a 3.0 gpa or higher over here in the states.


If it's anything like New Zealand, it's second class honours, first division. In order of precedence it is first class honours, second class (first division), second class (second division), third class, standard degree.

It makes for a nice halfway point between requiring an undergraduate degree and requiring a master's degree as it has a research component in a dissertation. Of course, once you've got your first job out of university, no-one cares about your grades, so it's all BS.
 
2010-08-30 10:26:59 AM
Surprisingly, there are a finite number of jobs available when your entire country is an island smaller in area than the state of Georgia, but with more than 10 times the population. Yes, you'll get work. No, not everyone gets to be a barrister, banker, or doctor.
 
2010-08-30 10:27:50 AM
Honestly? It's about time this entitled generation got a wake-up call about the real world, what with mommy and daddy standing by. When happily ever after fails and they've been poisoned by these fairy tales, lawyers end up cleaning up all details. Unfortunately it's really the end of the innocence for them.
 
2010-08-30 10:28:15 AM
FormlessOne: Surprisingly, there are a finite number of jobs available when your entire country is an island smaller in area than the state of Georgia, but with more than 10 times the population. Yes, you'll get work. No, not everyone gets to be a barrister, banker, or doctor.

That doesn't mean you let businesses walk all over everybody.
 
2010-08-30 10:28:20 AM
Bad as things are in the US, Britain is superboned economically. They just decided that 'austerity' is the way out, even though that has never worked, ever, in history, and it's farking stupid to save like hell when interest rates are at 40-year lows.

Leave it to 'conservatives' to not run a government like anyone with sense would run a business.
 
2010-08-30 10:30:37 AM
squeakerbox: i can feel that pain....

/mechanical engineer for hire


I hear ya man, I hear ya.
 
2010-08-30 10:30:53 AM
I'm leaving my job tomorrow to complete student teaching, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

/hopes he'll be able to find a job once his internship ends
 
2010-08-30 10:30:55 AM
Who you know helps a ton. Start making contacts in school. Work for free in the summer if you have to.
 
2010-08-30 10:31:42 AM
I would love it if the schools could turn out graduates that have critical thinking skills and drive. I'm looking for a candidate right now and having a hell of a time trying to find someone with just those qualities. I don't care if your sample website has the latest gadget you download and plug in but I certainly care if your links aren't checked, your spellings wrong and I keep getting server errors.

If you have those skills you don't need to flip burgers. You need to get your foot in the door at some place that's hiring and show them what you've got. After going through 80 resumes and countless phone interviews I'm still looking. Maybe it's just the Baltimore area where this is a problem.
 
2010-08-30 10:31:48 AM
thisispete: If it's anything like New Zealand, it's second class honours, first division. In order of precedence it is first class honours, second class (first division), second class (second division), third class, standard degree.

It makes for a nice halfway point between requiring an undergraduate degree and requiring a master's degree as it has a research component in a dissertation. Of course, once you've got your first job out of university, no-one cares about your grades, so it's all BS.


This is still confusing to some of us in the states. Do these 'levels' have to do with how well you do in the classes, or the number of classes you take?
 
2010-08-30 10:34:23 AM
The article is from early July and all the graduating happened back in May or so. But I'm sure this advice could also be applied to the classes of 2011 and beyond.

// It's Not News, etc....
 
2010-08-30 10:34:27 AM
cowsaregoodeating: I would love it if the schools could turn out graduates that have critical thinking skills and drive.

Hire somebody older. They'll probably take the crap entry level salary these days. Plenty of people in their 40s that know web stuff, and they have 5x the work ethic.
 
2010-08-30 10:35:18 AM
Hmm. I'm skeptical. All I've heard for the past few years is that there are millions of jobs Americans just won't do. Maybe Americans should do those jobs.
 
2010-08-30 10:35:56 AM
So what's the unemployment rate? Like 80%?
 
2010-08-30 10:40:04 AM
r0Be: I just had to google 2.1 degree to figure out what on earth that sentence meant. I realize now that it's a uk article and I guess it is similar to a 3.0 gpa or higher over here in the states.

Thanks, I was about to ask what that meant too!

As for graduating and the degree being worthless-- I got a bachelor's with a 3.96, had undergraduate research, wrote a paper, presented a poster at a national meeting, was an officer 2 years in a campus club relating to my degree, volunteered with said club on various ranches... I applied for 30 or so jobs with 5 "no"s and the rest never did respond. The only reason I was lucky and landed a job was because I took an internship on the other side of the country. (My state was on a hiring freeze.) Not exactly what I wanted to do, but it was my only option other than nothing at all.

Not here to complain, don't get me wrong. I'm damned lucky to have gotten that internship (although I really do believe they hired me for the "minority" bit, rather than they were really impressed with my qualifications and ambitions). But I do think the employers sell up the hype of a degree. You spend a lot of money to put yourself through, then get out, and no one wants you because the market is too saturated or they're cutting jobs/expenses. It's unfortunate and a bit of a rude awakening to a student that actually has a degree in something they enjoy doing. Not just general studies or some other degree because that's what their parents or friends told them to get.

The master's in the new bachelor's, and even then, they don't want to pay you or aren't in a position to hire you at all. A lot of positions I looked at required a master's degree or equivalent experience. (How do you get equivalent experience if no one will hire you with lower requirements??) So I feel for those students that try hard and still have nowhere to go with it.

Sigh.
 
2010-08-30 10:43:23 AM
This is why I'm thankful I started to work full time right out of high school and have been going to school at the same time. I'm 4 years ahead of all these people I'd normally be competing with.
 
2010-08-30 10:45:44 AM
Bacontastesgood: cowsaregoodeating: I would love it if the schools could turn out graduates that have critical thinking skills and drive.

Hire somebody older. They'll probably take the crap entry level salary these days. Plenty of people in their 40s that know web stuff, and they have 5x the work ethic.


I wish that were the case, if you know of some send them my way because I could use them. Not everyone is the same, there are good engineers and bad software engineers throughout every level of the spectrum. Right now my two best engineers are 43 and 23. The commonality is drive and critical thinking skills. My other engineers drop off from there but the list of undesirable traits range from sloppy work to having to be coached through every problem no matter how trivial.
I have put out ads for engineers across the experience spectrum. I don't care what your age or experience is. At the end of the day I just want to see someone who actually cares about the job they are doing. I find that quality mostly in second generation immigrants but not exclusively there.
 
2010-08-30 10:49:57 AM
homeschooled: This is why I'm thankful I started to work full time right out of high school and have been going to school at the same time. I'm 4 years ahead of all these people I'd normally be competing with.

So you're saying that you'll be head burger flipper in no time at all?
 
2010-08-30 10:52:15 AM
Liese: The master's in the new bachelor's

Since it sounds like you're in a science field, I'll say no, it really isn't. All they are doing is hoping to cut down on applicants with that statement. Masters degrees in science have the 'taint' of also being awarded to people who drop out of phd programs. A lot of places, you'd be surprised, award BS or BAs in science with no research, so if you've done research you're OK.

It's always hard to get the career going. Most people have to do a couple of crappy jobs before they get to a good place. Stick with it, build your network, do good work and you will still do OK.
 
2010-08-30 10:53:41 AM
cowsaregoodeating: Maybe it's just the Baltimore area where this is a problem.

It seems to me there's more demand than supply here. I'm contacted almost daily about openings in the area.
 
2010-08-30 10:54:00 AM
sethstorm: FormlessOne: Surprisingly, there are a finite number of jobs available when your entire country is an island smaller in area than the state of Georgia, but with more than 10 times the population. Yes, you'll get work. No, not everyone gets to be a barrister, banker, or doctor.

That doesn't mean you let businesses walk all over everybody.


Sure - but there's a big difference between "walk all over everybody" and "we're full up on professional positions, so I'd start looking at other sectors for work." This isn't a conspiracy. It's simple market dynamics - too many applicants for too few positions, and the more desirable the position, the worse the ratio.

The increased competition for positions requiring a higher education has affected the higher education process and product itself, as well, as the article has already pointed out. Increased competition for higher education resources, grade inflation, odd "tweaks" to increase the marketability of a college and those who graduate from that college - we're seeing the same thing here in the United States. It's not just limited to higher education, either - we've dozens of valedictorians coming out of the same class, new class offices constructed just to have something on a transcript, new grading schemes to ensure that graduates of certain high schools are received more favorably by colleges.

Education no longer guarantees a professional position, and hasn't for some time now. Increasingly, and thankfully, the sudden rush of carbon-copy, entry-level professional candidates makes us old, experienced folks look better. We'll need that edge, as we can't retire any more.
 
2010-08-30 10:54:26 AM
Fizics: Honestly? It's about time this entitled generation got a wake-up call about the real world, what with mommy and daddy standing by. When happily ever after fails and they've been poisoned by these fairy tales, lawyers end up cleaning up all details. Unfortunately it's really the end of the innocence for them.

You sound old.
 
2010-08-30 10:56:10 AM
r0Be:
I just had to google 2.1 degree to figure out what on earth that sentence meant. I realize now that it's a uk article and I guess it is similar to a 3.0 gpa or higher over here in the states.

This is the equivilent scale used to translate a US degree in the UK

1st = 3.8-4.0
2.1 = 3.6-3.79
2.2 = 3.4-3.49
Not too sure on the 3rd being as it isn't an honours degree so I would guess a 3.00 to 3.39 region.
 
2010-08-30 10:56:38 AM
I'm not sure how much of this I believe.

I've done interviews and hiring were I work and we have seen a slight increase in our applications. We've seen virtually zero increase in qualified applicants.

We see plenty of college graduates with no work experience, no internships, not even a decent size non-class related project they've done. IE - nothing.

Somehow, I don't think experience stocking shelves is going to help them.
 
2010-08-30 11:00:42 AM
cowsaregoodeating: Bacontastesgood: cowsaregoodeating: I would love it if the schools could turn out graduates that have critical thinking skills and drive.

Hire somebody older. They'll probably take the crap entry level salary these days. Plenty of people in their 40s that know web stuff, and they have 5x the work ethic.

I wish that were the case, if you know of some send them my way because I could use them. Not everyone is the same, there are good engineers and bad software engineers throughout every level of the spectrum. Right now my two best engineers are 43 and 23. The commonality is drive and critical thinking skills. My other engineers drop off from there but the list of undesirable traits range from sloppy work to having to be coached through every problem no matter how trivial.
I have put out ads for engineers across the experience spectrum. I don't care what your age or experience is. At the end of the day I just want to see someone who actually cares about the job they are doing. I find that quality mostly in second generation immigrants but not exclusively there.


As one of those older engineers with drive and critical thinking skills, I can relate. While I have a couple of certifications, I've no degree (I did, however, take a few UConn courses while in high school.) But, with 20+ years of experience at everywhere from East Coast insurance companies, to startups, to Microsoft, and a demonstrated track record, I'm far easier to hire for gigs than the average college graduate for the same price.

Even with that, it's hard to get work these days, as I'm not the only experienced, driven, critically-minded geezer out here willing to work for a reasonable hourly rate. There simply aren't enough jobs to go around, and employers can hire experienced folks almost as easily as newbies, without inheriting the issues recent newbies tend to bring with them.
 
2010-08-30 11:03:11 AM
Sybarite: Did you 'try' to bullshiat last week?

Came in here for this, leaving satisfied.
 
2010-08-30 11:03:15 AM
cowsaregoodeating:
I have put out ads for engineers across the experience spectrum. I don't care what your age or experience is. At the end of the day I just want to see someone who actually cares about the job they are doing. I find that quality mostly in second generation immigrants but not exclusively there.


I was with you until this. I don't know anything about your business, but I suspect you pay "a little above average" and your benefits are "pretty standard in the industry" and perhaps you have little or no performance based bonus. I suspect that's why nobody cares about their jobs.

I hear companies biatch and moan all the time about how even in the recession they just can't seem to find anyone competent. Then you look at what they're offering as compensation and it's no wonder. If you want the top 5% of talent, you need to be in the top 5% in terms of compensation. Not "above average". Not "competitive".

Fire three of the guys that you have to coach through everything. Add their salaries together and post a job with that as the salary, and then you MIGHT catch the attention of someone competent.
 
2010-08-30 11:05:18 AM
Fark_Guy_Rob: I've done interviews and hiring were I work and we have seen a slight increase in our applications. We've seen virtually zero increase in qualified applicants.

We see plenty of college graduates with no work experience, no internships, not even a decent size non-class related project they've done. IE - nothing.


What do you offer in terms of compensation?

Offer peanuts and you attract monkeys.
 
2010-08-30 11:05:34 AM
Get a real degree, you will not have this issue.
 
2010-08-30 11:06:42 AM
cowsaregoodeating: At the end of the day I just want to see someone who actually cares about the job they are doing.

Which is ironic, if you think about it, because thanks to the economy and the money-grabbing of executives, most major industries are doing as much as humanly possible to not care about dedication and actual talent. They actually *expect* you to leave the company for a better paying job, one that they just paid an outsider to do in your company because he's friends with some VP.

Companies, unfortunately, realize that the more they care, the less they make, which makes them not want to care at all.

Take my auditing company, which a year or two ago was bought out by investment bankers. Top wage was cut dramatically (including forced wage cuts on people making over it), we've got the piss-poorest insurance you've ever seen, and we want to advance less than they want us to, which isn't much. Company policy has all but completely blown off customer service in favor of meeting productivity goals, goals which, conversely, the customers don't want us to meet because they realize the level of inaccuracy they bring. And all the while the bankers make money, and as long as that happens we're farked.
 
2010-08-30 11:09:02 AM
Thisbymaster: Get a real degree, you will not have this issue.

And these days, a Bachelors (in anything) isn't one.
 
2010-08-30 11:09:16 AM
I'm glad I have a secure job. I would not want to be in the job market right now.
 
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