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(BBC) Asinine Australian court rules that Sony still owns your PS3   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 59
More: Asinine, Sony, Australians, dongles, court orders  
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6750 clicks; posted to Geek » on 28 Aug 2010 at 5:48 PM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»   |    Get this fabulous T-Shirt and impress the methane out of your friends! shirt it!



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2010-08-28 04:29:40 PM
"What's all this child porn and snuff footage on your PS3?"
"That ain't my PS3"
 
2010-08-28 04:51:31 PM
No they banned the selling of the hack chip. If you built your own hack chip, and installed it on your own PS3, and never sold or distributed it... betcha Sony couldn't make you stop.

You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.
 
2010-08-28 05:53:42 PM
downstairs: You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.

How do you prove that that's the intent?

It's easy enough for the company (and for users) to claim that they only intend to use it to play backed-up copies of games they've purchased, or else to install homebrew.

Not that I have any illusions about piracy, but the "intent" of these devices is an awfully difficult thing to prove in court.
 
2010-08-28 06:02:10 PM
downstairs: No they banned the selling of the hack chip. If you built your own hack chip, and installed it on your own PS3, and never sold or distributed it... betcha Sony couldn't make you stop.

You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.


Given you call it a "hack chip" I'm going to assume you don't have your GED in electronics or law.
 
2010-08-28 06:05:38 PM
Doc Daneeka: downstairs: You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.

How do you prove that that's the intent?

It's easy enough for the company (and for users) to claim that they only intend to use it to play backed-up copies of games they've purchased, or else to install homebrew.

Not that I have any illusions about piracy, but the "intent" of these devices is an awfully difficult thing to prove in court.


Australia has some really screwed up laws all over the place as per what most of the Western World considers "rights". Our (the USA) has fair use but it's name has been trashed so completely that being able to make a backup of the media you own isn't even possible if it requires you to break copy protection.

I extremely doubt that the PS3 uses any real copy protection beyond the disk encryption and the fact that it's a BD-ROM. Security through obscurity doesn't really work as Sega found out with the Dreamcast.
 
2010-08-28 06:06:25 PM
I tried to make it through the article, but the term "dongle" makes me laugh ever time.
 
2010-08-28 06:09:19 PM
APE992: Given you call it a "hack chip" I'm going to assume you don't have your GED in electronics or law.

Correct, I do not.
 
2010-08-28 06:10:26 PM
APE992: downstairs: No they banned the selling of the hack chip. If you built your own hack chip, and installed it on your own PS3, and never sold or distributed it... betcha Sony couldn't make you stop.

You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.

Given you call it a "hack chip" I'm going to assume you don't have your GED in electronics or law.


tempest.fluidartist.com
 
2010-08-28 06:12:17 PM
Doc Daneeka: Not that I have any illusions about piracy, but the "intent" of these devices is an awfully difficult thing to prove in court.

I'm sure its not the easiest thing, but its certainly possible. It would be hard to market the thing without explaining that it does allow you to copy games illegally, and giving instructions on doing just that.
 
2010-08-28 06:13:17 PM
I see the usual group of 'We want to steal things and use false moral arguments to make ourselves feel better' types are already out in full force.
 
2010-08-28 06:21:34 PM
randomjsa: I see the usual group of 'We want to steal things and use false moral arguments to make ourselves feel better' types are already out in full force.

No, its the "we really, really want to back up things... hell, we love backing up games so much, we rent them from Gamefly and back up games for Gamefly... and then we love to trade backups just to make sure our games are backed up in multiple locations."
 
2010-08-28 06:23:26 PM
randomjsa: I see the usual group of 'We want to steal things and use false moral arguments to make ourselves feel better' types are already out in full force.


I'm pretty sure it's stealing, but I still kind of want one.
 
2010-08-28 06:28:38 PM
Razorwolf: "What's all this child porn and snuff footage on your PS3?"
"That ain't my PS3"


It's interesting that you say that. I work in computer forensics. My team are seeing more and more console each year and they are a coont to work with! These things are locked down almost to point that the only way to get anything useful out of them is to plug them in and turn them on.

It seems pretty obvious that it's aimed at backup/pirated games, but I'd love to get my hands on one of these chips just to see what I can get off the hard disk.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-08-28 06:39:01 PM
Sony has until August 31 to makes its case to the court for a permanent ban.

Did Sony have to post a bond to cover defense costs if the court changes its mind? (Court web site didn't work for me.)
 
2010-08-28 06:43:05 PM
It is sort of like GM or Toyota telling you that you can't install a faster engine because the only reason to do so would be to break the speed limit.
 
2010-08-28 06:47:48 PM
Thisbymaster: It is sort of like GM or Toyota telling you that you can't install a faster engine because the only reason to do so would be to break the speed limit.

Um, no . . . it's nothing at all like that.
 
2010-08-28 06:49:45 PM
Thisbymaster: It is sort of like GM or Toyota telling you that you can't install a faster engine because the only reason to do so would be to break the speed limit.

Sort of, but not really. GM or Toyota have no financial stake in whether you breaking the speed limit or not. They may have improved things by now, but to begin with at least, Sony were selling the PS3 at a loss and making the money back through game sales.
 
2010-08-28 06:51:35 PM
chewielouie: Thisbymaster: It is sort of like GM or Toyota telling you that you can't install a faster engine because the only reason to do so would be to break the speed limit.

Um, no . . . it's nothing at all like that.


How is it not like that? You can't use the dongle for other, legal purposes?
 
2010-08-28 06:53:20 PM
downstairs: randomjsa: I see the usual group of 'We want to steal things and use false moral arguments to make ourselves feel better' types are already out in full force.

No, its the "we really, really want to back up things... hell, we love backing up games so much, we rent them from Gamefly and back up games for Gamefly... and then we love to trade backups just to make sure our games are backed up in multiple locations."


I'm not sure what world you live in but I don't know anyone who goes that nuts over pirating games.
 
2010-08-28 06:56:24 PM
Fluffy_the_cactus: You can't use the dongle for other, legal purposes?

Sure, but that's not how it's being marketed. I'd love to get one to try hacking around with the console filesystem, but every one of the homebrew-enabling hacks for the current generation of consoles has led to increased piracy. This will be no different.
 
2010-08-28 07:08:24 PM
randomjsa: I see the usual group of 'We want to steal things and use false moral arguments to make ourselves feel better' types are already out in full force.

Wasn't sure if you were addressing me, but I wasn't making an argument for piracy at all.

In fact, I am strongly opposed to piracy. I've purchased every one of the games in my collection.
 
2010-08-28 07:10:37 PM
Do Australians actually have any rights?
 
2010-08-28 07:17:37 PM
slashb: Thisbymaster: It is sort of like GM or Toyota telling you that you can't install a faster engine because the only reason to do so would be to break the speed limit.

Sort of, but not really. GM or Toyota have no financial stake in whether you breaking the speed limit or not. They may have improved things by now, but to begin with at least, Sony were selling the PS3 at a loss and making the money back through game sales.


I don't see why if a company has a bad business plan has anything to do with my rights as a consumer.
 
2010-08-28 07:29:40 PM
MBA Whore: Do Australians actually have any rights?

Nope, it was getting in the way of tax and fine collection.
 
2010-08-28 07:34:29 PM
Thisbymaster: It is sort of like GM or Toyota telling you that you can't install a faster engine because the only reason to do so would be to break the speed limit.

It's more like GM or Toyota telling you that you can only buy their lubricants, fluids, filters, parts & accessories, and that if you use aftermarket, you're a thief because you bought the car for less than cost.
It's a dubious business model, but so far it's worked.

I can't imagine Sony believes it will win it's case in the end, it's probably just trying to buy some time.
 
2010-08-28 07:39:42 PM
downstairs: No they banned the selling of the hack chip. If you built your own hack chip, and installed it on your own PS3, and never sold or distributed it... betcha Sony couldn't make you stop.

You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.


Sony will disable your access to PSN if they detect a hack chip.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2010-08-28 07:48:21 PM
IIRC, the U.S. standard for copyright violation devices being legal was "substantial non-infringing use" prior to the DMCA. The standard was set in large part by the Betamax case where defendants offered testimony by public television officials saying they liked having their programs recorded. So the VCR was a device that really was frequently used legally, for recording with consent as well as for time shifting which was found to be another legal use.

The DMCA made the law stricter.

If a similar rule applies to the Australian dongle case, the defendants would have to show that the dongle really was frequently used for what the law recognizes as legitimate purposes. And, probably, that they didn't advertise it as a lawbreaking device. Some defendants lost in American court when they advertised their file sharing service as a copyright violation aid.
 
2010-08-28 07:48:44 PM
dumb move on sony's part, they should've bought all the chips this guy had

instead now that this thing is legit and Sony has no control over it it'll be reverse engineered for a penny in China instead of $100
 
2010-08-28 08:23:13 PM
slashb: Fluffy_the_cactus: You can't use the dongle for other, legal purposes?

Sure, but that's not how it's being marketed. I'd love to get one to try hacking around with the console filesystem, but every one of the homebrew-enabling hacks for the current generation of consoles has led to increased piracy. This will be no different.


So all they'd need to do is "market" it slightly differently and it would be perfectly acceptable. AND, the people who would want to use it to begin with would recognize it for what it is and would likely still obtain it somehow.

/If I bought it, it's MINE
//Unless I owe someone for it
///Then it's partially theirs too
 
2010-08-28 08:30:49 PM
Slight threadjack here...

I sent my PS3 to be repaired by WKA Inc.... which they did. And my PS3 broke again shortly after I got it back. They are giving me a price on fixing it again (it wasn't under any sort of warranty with them because my BIL took it in and didn't sign to have the warranty), so I thought I'd call Sony and see how much they'd charge me for working on it.

They flat out refused to work on it, regardless of what I was willing to pay. The guy told me that because the seal was broken, they wouldn't touch the machine.

/end threadjack
//Just really peeved at the whole thing
///Getting it repaired again
 
2010-08-28 08:36:36 PM
Fluffy_the_cactus: So all they'd need to do is "market" it slightly differently and it would be perfectly acceptable.


i388.photobucket.com

Brass knuckles = illegal
Paperweight = legal

Its stupid, but there is precedence for your argument.
Its also annoying that we have live this way just because the law and corporate interests want to micromanage every facet of our lives.
They can market a car as a penis enlargement device but computer chips and software cant be sold as mod tools.

Personally I'd just void the warranty on the device if you modify it and leave the legal ramifications for misuse on the owners head.
 
2010-08-28 08:37:10 PM
slashb: Fluffy_the_cactus: You can't use the dongle for other, legal purposes?

Sure, but that's not how it's being marketed. I'd love to get one to try hacking around with the console filesystem, but every one of the homebrew-enabling hacks for the current generation of consoles has led to increased piracy. This will be no different.


Maybe I have too much money but I only use homebrew on my wii for playing SNES games like final fantasy 2 and legend of zelda.
 
2010-08-28 09:03:41 PM
I'd love playing around with unsigned code on the system. As of now it's a F@H box and Blu-ray player and that's it. PC for everything else.
 
2010-08-28 09:05:42 PM
moothemagiccow: slashb: Fluffy_the_cactus: You can't use the dongle for other, legal purposes?

Sure, but that's not how it's being marketed. I'd love to get one to try hacking around with the console filesystem, but every one of the homebrew-enabling hacks for the current generation of consoles has led to increased piracy. This will be no different.

Maybe I have too much money but I only use homebrew on my wii for playing SNES games like final fantasy 2 and legend of zelda.


Even if you own those two games, I believe that is still technically illegal since you can get snes Zelda on the virtual store
 
2010-08-28 09:07:50 PM
moothemagiccow: slashb: Fluffy_the_cactus: You can't use the dongle for other, legal purposes?

Sure, but that's not how it's being marketed. I'd love to get one to try hacking around with the console filesystem, but every one of the homebrew-enabling hacks for the current generation of consoles has led to increased piracy. This will be no different.

Maybe I have too much money but I only use homebrew on my wii for playing SNES games like final fantasy 2 and legend of zelda.


I hacked my original xbox so I could use it as a thin client/media extender for my file/media server
 
2010-08-28 09:10:02 PM
mjbok: Even if you own those two games, I believe that is still technically illegal since you can get snes Zelda on the virtual store

Is that how that works. I was under the impression that if you owned a copy, you had a license to use that code, however that may be.
 
2010-08-28 09:11:50 PM
PSJailbreak says there is no copyrighted Sony code in the jig.

From what I've seen over the past week or so, this device is the result of modders getting their hands on the "Official" Sony service jig, and uses the low-level protocol (it plugs into the USB port, but Sony uses a custom ASIC that operates BEFORE the port "works" as a USB port, i.e. the jig is not actually a "USB" device.) the service jig uses, to inject code through an exploit and switch the retail box into a "Dev box"-like mode that allows unsigned code to run.

If this is the case, then the Australian case is a non-starter - Sony has no recourse if the device does not contained any copyrighted code. The case will end up being found in the modchip sellers' favor. The device isn't even a 1:1 copy of the service jig - it just uses the protocol of the service jig to exploit the console.

What the jig enables is the use of homebrew software, just like the original XBox mod, the Xbox 360 JTAG mod, and of course, the Wii softmods. A side effect is enabling the running of PS3 games from the hard drive (internal or external) - but Sony brought this on themselves by removing the "Install Other OS" feature.

In short, Sony might have shot themselves in the foot by removing the feature. Now there's justification, from a certain esoteric standpoint, for mod chips to be legal for the PS3.

/Has my GED in mod chip and scene-ology.
 
2010-08-28 09:18:02 PM
Fluffy_the_cactus: Slight threadjack here...

I sent my PS3 to be repaired by WKA Inc.... which they did. And my PS3 broke again shortly after I got it back. They are giving me a price on fixing it again (it wasn't under any sort of warranty with them because my BIL took it in and didn't sign to have the warranty), so I thought I'd call Sony and see how much they'd charge me for working on it.

They flat out refused to work on it, regardless of what I was willing to pay. The guy told me that because the seal was broken, they wouldn't touch the machine.

/end threadjack
//Just really peeved at the whole thing
///Getting it repaired again


I sent in my ps3 to sony 5 months ago, it finally broke for good, after me fixing it twice via the heatgun method. They didn't care that the seal was broken. $150, and they sent me a new 120gig slim.
 
2010-08-28 09:53:04 PM
People that pirate games are why some of the smaller game developers get bought up by EA, UBI, or the other big guys. They can't stay in business if they aren't having people buying their games. I think people that pirate games should be banned from ever owning another console or PC ever again.
 
2010-08-28 10:18:03 PM
OgreMagi: Sony will disable your access to PSN if they detect a hack chip.

And since the PSN is pure crap I would not shed a tear.
 
2010-08-28 10:47:19 PM
The device has already been reverse engineered (new window). It will only be a matter of time before some other company not in Australia or the U.S. makes a clone.
 
2010-08-28 11:00:08 PM
Myria: The device has already been reverse engineered (new window). It will only be a matter of time before some other company not in Australia or the U.S. makes a clone.

The device isn't made in Australia, nor is PSJailbreak based in Australia. Sony sued the three major mod chip distributors in Australia who were official resellers.

There also is a clone close to market, the X3... it expects to sell for US$49. They've shown pictures of unpopulated circuit boards (the chip was identified, and I believe the code can be read out).

Read my post above.

Unless the judge is a total retard or completely on the take, the lawsuit won't stand in Australia, anyway. Mod chips are legal if they do not come with any copyrighted code, and PSJailBreak has stated there is no copyrighted code in their device.
 
2010-08-29 12:08:38 AM
 
2010-08-29 12:19:31 AM
Brainmeat: People that pirate games are why some of the smaller game developers get bought up by EA, UBI, or the other big guys. They can't stay in business if they aren't having people buying their games. I think people that pirate games should be banned from ever owning another console or PC ever again.

While I appreciate the sentiment, you do realize that devs never see any of the secondary market sales either, I hope. In other words, you just called Gamestop and such pirates, and by association said Gamestop is the reason EA is ruining games and the gaming industry.

Probably have to agree with you.
 
2010-08-29 12:54:23 AM
downstairs: You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.

Haven't

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we

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heard

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this

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before?
 
2010-08-29 01:00:35 AM
Doc Daneeka: downstairs: You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.

How do you prove that that's the intent?

It's easy enough for the company (and for users) to claim that they only intend to use it to play backed-up copies of games they've purchased, or else to install homebrew.

Not that I have any illusions about piracy, but the "intent" of these devices is an awfully difficult thing to prove in court.


That's like buying a gun and saying that you can't prove the intent is to go shoot things.

Dress it up all you want, hell, use it to database your precious snowflake's Girl Scout Cookie sales, but the core arguement is the same: This is a device designed to circumvent copyright protections, the reason for doing so is irrelevant (and often stupid.)

Who the hell makes backups of disc-based content on the console? I find it difficult to believe that you could copy the contents of a Blu-Ray without circumventing some kind of protection in the first place.
 
2010-08-29 01:54:00 AM
downstairs: No they banned the selling of the hack chip. If you built your own hack chip, and installed it on your own PS3, and never sold or distributed it... betcha Sony couldn't make you stop.

You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.


You do realize that projects like multimedia center software Boxee was born out of the homebrew scene (XBMP/XBMC) that developed from all those nasty little mod chips people sold for the original Xbox, right? I wrote the first "complete" homebrew game for the Xbox back in the summer of 2002 (X-Marbles, which had scoring, sound, music and it "ended" - unlike the Pong game that came out shortly before).

Likewise, the Wii's softmod has resulted in a flood of homebrew for that console.

People are already chomping at the bit for writing homebrew on the PS3, especially after Sony removed the "Install other OS" option. Ironically, removing that option makes the legal position for a PS3 modchip stronger.
 
2010-08-29 02:36:27 AM
MVEAlpha: Doc Daneeka: downstairs: You can't *sell* something that's intent is to cause copyright infringement.

How do you prove that that's the intent?

It's easy enough for the company (and for users) to claim that they only intend to use it to play backed-up copies of games they've purchased, or else to install homebrew.

Not that I have any illusions about piracy, but the "intent" of these devices is an awfully difficult thing to prove in court.

That's like buying a gun and saying that you can't prove the intent is to go shoot things.

Dress it up all you want, hell, use it to database your precious snowflake's Girl Scout Cookie sales, but the core arguement is the same: This is a device designed to circumvent copyright protections, the reason for doing so is irrelevant (and often stupid.)

Who the hell makes backups of disc-based content on the console? I find it difficult to believe that you could copy the contents of a Blu-Ray without circumventing some kind of protection in the first place.


Not backups so much as burning to the hard drive and avoiding disc checks.
 
2010-08-29 03:00:21 AM
Sure, they still own it - right up to the time it needs repairing.
 
2010-08-29 03:30:00 AM
How about this for an idea? They remove the ability to "backup" a game and play it from the copy (i.e. you can make a copy, but you need a valid retail disc to still play the game(even if your games scratched to shiat it's still gonna read the inner rings where the copy protection is) and then all the people just who want to play with code and make their legitimate backups can do that till their hearts content.

Lets see how well a modchip that doesnt let you steal stuff sells.
 
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