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(STLToday)   Missouri abortion law requires women be told life begins at conception, preferably told to them by a man dressed as Jesus riding a dinosaur   (stltoday.com) divider line 516
    More: Stupid, thawb, Jay Nixon, Jewish Federation, Missouri, theologians, Guttmacher Institute, conservative evangelical, Pope John Paul II  
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7676 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Aug 2010 at 4:05 AM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-08-23 09:19:11 PM
For the first time that does not involve football, I am embarrassed of and for my state.
 
2010-08-23 09:23:30 PM
Too bad it doesn't.
 
2010-08-23 09:36:18 PM
Relatively Obscure: Too bad it doesn't.

Not even in the Bible.

I can find you a dozen places where breath is equated with life. Breath. As in that first screaming wail after the doctor spanks the bottom.
 
2010-08-23 10:40:53 PM
I love states that honestly feel that women are so stupid that they can't make medical decisions for themselves. It says so much about how far we've come as a society.

Feh.
 
2010-08-23 11:15:38 PM
Missouri abortion law requires women be told fairy tales before procedure.
 
2010-08-23 11:18:11 PM
what a crock of shiat. Small government*, indeed.


*small enough to fit inside your vag
 
2010-08-23 11:20:06 PM
I feel life begins before conception. Aren't sperm and eggs living cells? Not using every single one of them is murder.
 
2010-08-23 11:20:58 PM
To steal from someone else, you're not a person if I have to reach into someone's vagina to slap you around. A fetus is nothing more than a tumor before birth.
 
2010-08-23 11:27:46 PM
itsdan: I feel life begins before conception. Aren't sperm and eggs living cells? Not using every single one of them is murder.

Let's not forget that cancer cells are living cells, too.

Why are we so adamant that those be destroyed?
 
2010-08-23 11:28:48 PM
AtticusFinchEsq: For the first time that does not involve football, I am embarrassed of and for my state.

You're not a Royals fan then?
 
2010-08-23 11:29:18 PM
21 weeks and 5 days gestation is the earliest surviving birth so far. He's 23 years old now. I suppose he's not real huh?
 
2010-08-23 11:30:08 PM
But we must stop Sharia Law at all costs to preserve democracy from religious zealotry!!!
 
2010-08-23 11:30:28 PM
AtticusFinchEsq: For the first time that does not involve football, I am embarrassed of and for my state.

I believe you have forgotten about John Ashcroft.
 
2010-08-23 11:30:30 PM
itsdan: I feel life begins before conception. Aren't sperm and eggs living cells? Not using every single one of them is murder.


That means I committed a few billion murders in the last week.


/It wasn't me...it was tube8!
 
2010-08-23 11:32:23 PM
 
2010-08-23 11:32:32 PM
Actually, life begins before conception. The spark of life exists in every man and woman at the exact moment that they enter puberty, and every egg that goes unfertilized and every ejaculate that goes unclaimed is an abomination in the face of God, who sees only a newborn in every lost opportunity.
 
2010-08-23 11:34:07 PM
RobertBruce: 21 weeks and 5 days gestation is the earliest surviving birth so far. He's 23 years old now. I suppose he's not real huh?

As real as a stupid premise from a tax dodger.
 
2010-08-23 11:36:30 PM
Pocket Ninja: Actually, life begins before conception. The spark of life exists in every man and woman at the exact moment that they enter puberty, and every egg that goes unfertilized and every ejaculate that goes unclaimed is an abomination in the face of God, who sees only a newborn in every lost opportunity.

So what you're saying is that the only people who even come close to not not being sinners are the Duggars?
 
2010-08-23 11:46:06 PM
SilentStrider: So what you're saying is that the only people who even come close to not not being sinners are the Duggars?

It's a commonly known fact that if you assign each letter of the alphabet a number (ie, A=1, B=2, etc), the words "Christ" and "Duggars" are exactly equal.
 
2010-08-23 11:51:57 PM
Pocket Ninja: SilentStrider: So what you're saying is that the only people who even come close to not not being sinners are the Duggars?

It's a commonly known fact that if you assign each letter of the alphabet a number (ie, A=1, B=2, etc), the words "Christ" and "Duggars" are exactly equal.


I'm going to go into a corner and cry now.
 
2010-08-23 11:52:03 PM
Whatever:

http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_OAL.pdf
 
2010-08-23 11:57:12 PM
First question: If conception is life, are all frozen embryos currently being held in inhumane conditions? If not, can we deep freeze a newborn? A three year old?

Second question: If every embryo is a life, an we claim them all as tax deductions?

Think about it. Say birth-date is now 'conception date'. If life begins at conception, and since something like 10% of all pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriages where the woman never even knew she had conceived, and no birth control is 100% effective, every menstruation is a 'possible' life (whether you have sex or not).

And thus legally constitutes a dependent who didn't live beyond his or her first year. But is still a legal deduction.

So...we're all nine months older, and every 'possible' life is a dependent. All ladies between puberty and menopause, enjoy the $43,000 in tax deductions you now get every year.
 
2010-08-23 11:57:58 PM
Well done, Missouri.

Show me state, indeed.
 
2010-08-23 11:58:26 PM
itsdan: I feel life begins before conception. Aren't sperm and eggs living cells? Not using every single one of them is murder.

For that matter, any masturbatory emissions, where the sperm is clearly not seeking an egg, could be termed reckless abandonment.
 
2010-08-23 11:58:44 PM
SilentStrider: I'm going to go into a corner and cry now.

You would do better to find your way to a local bar or other meeting spot and find a woman who could help unburden you of the unborn infant gathering as we speak in your loins.
 
2010-08-23 11:59:41 PM
I only masturbate in the shower, so at least my murders are clean.
 
2010-08-24 12:00:44 AM
They're are not murdering babies. They're making angels.

/why do you hate angels?
 
2010-08-24 12:04:16 AM
I wonder how religious people who believe life begins at conception deal with the fact that 60-80% of fertilized eggs don't implant and thus pass out of the body to die.

/source (Do an in page search for "60". The exchange between Dr. Opitz and Prof. Sandel quotes the relevant information)
 
2010-08-24 12:06:24 AM
So will miscarriages now require a police investigation, a coroner report and a funeral?
 
2010-08-24 12:08:08 AM
Butterflew: what a crock of shiat. Small government*, indeed.

It's the most infuriating of all 'conservative' inconsistencies. The next time I hear someone bloviating about "small government" while simultaneously wanting to control vaginas, other religions, marriage, Baby Jesus in the classroom, the war on drugs, banning books from libraries, wanton military excess, and willful ignorance of the Constitution - I may have to choke a biatch.
 
2010-08-24 12:09:46 AM
log_jammin: So will miscarriages now require a police investigation, a coroner report and a funeral?

Or even when a premature baby dies in an aquarium because of underdeveloped organs?
 
2010-08-24 12:10:13 AM
How can an immoral act be preformed on something without a mind (mind != brain, but a brain is required for a mind)?
 
2010-08-24 12:11:31 AM
mamoru: I wonder how religious people who believe life begins at conception deal with the fact that 60-80% of fertilized eggs don't implant and thus pass out of the body to die.


Oh, come on. That's too easy. To those who believe, they believe it's Gods will.
 
2010-08-24 12:22:17 AM
Staffist: mamoru: I wonder how religious people who believe life begins at conception deal with the fact that 60-80% of fertilized eggs don't implant and thus pass out of the body to die.


Oh, come on. That's too easy. To those who believe, they believe it's Gods will.


But the doctor who performs the abortion isn't?
 
2010-08-24 12:25:53 AM
mamoru: But the doctor who performs the abortion isn't?

God works in mysterious ways...except for when he doesn't.
 
2010-08-24 12:29:00 AM
Joseph: It's not mine is it?
Mary: Nope, not this time.
Joseph: So what are we going to do?
Mary: There is an inn just up the road, maybe they will help. If they have room.
 
2010-08-24 12:39:31 AM
mamoru: But the doctor who performs the abortion isn't?

I'm not sure about their beliefs regarding the abortionists, though I think I have a pretty good idea. But, if your original question remains, that being about how religious people who believe that life begins at conception deal with the fact that so many embryos pass from the body to die, spontaneously, well then my answer remains unchanged. I think that they believe it's Gods will.
 
2010-08-24 12:46:58 AM
As usual for culture wars issues, I suspect this may be useful for help tracking varieties of "arguments" presented to persuade and to resist persuasion.

img825.imageshack.us

Of course, in this case, I'm not sure which faction might be needing it more.

Also, because Bevets is a speciesist....
www.animalpictures1.com
 
2010-08-24 12:58:52 AM
Pocket Ninja: You would do better to find your way to a local bar or other meeting spot and find a woman who could help unburden you of the unborn infant gathering as we speak in your loins.

well, my wife wouldn't approve...
but she loves me and wouldn't want me to go to hell...

I'm so confused.
 
2010-08-24 01:00:14 AM
Life begins....? Pah. Life _continues_ at conception and at every other point of the reproductive cycle. It's an ongoing process that started with abiogenesis some billions of years ago and run uninterrupted since. All of us are just small bits of the current expression of that ongoing process, and it will continue on after we are gone recombining and expressing itself in new shapes and forms until this particular branching tree of life that was seeded from those first primitive cells withers and dies.

The real question here is perhaps when that particular bit of the super-organism that sprouts from the combination of human sperm and egg itself becomes human.
 
2010-08-24 01:04:26 AM
Staffist: I think that they believe it's Gods will.

And, that is where I struggle with the situation. Assuming God, can anything happen that is not God's will? If so, how does one clearly determine if something is or is not God's will?

abb3w: Also, because Bevets is a speciesist....

That's a beautiful picture. It reminds me of a really interesting paper I read about swimming in that formation and how the mother is essentially carrying the calf using her wake in a way that is pretty much energetically the same as a person carrying their child. But, I digress...

/We now return to our regularly scheduled Abortion/Religion thread.
 
2010-08-24 01:06:02 AM
horse-pheathers: The real question here is perhaps when that particular bit of the super-organism that sprouts from the combination of human sperm and egg itself becomes human.

Actually, as I'm sure you know, the real question is whether or not birth control and/or abortion services should be legal, and whether the people who provide these services should be blown up or murdered.
 
2010-08-24 01:33:25 AM
Sun God: horse-pheathers: The real question here is perhaps when that particular bit of the super-organism that sprouts from the combination of human sperm and egg itself becomes human.

Actually, as I'm sure you know, the real question is whether or not birth control and/or abortion services should be legal, and whether the people who provide these services should be blown up or murdered.


There's that. Yes, birth control and abortion should be legal for a variety of reasons ranging from the individual rights of the mother up to and including a pragmatic approach to survival and overall quality of life. But that stuff isn't as fascinating as taking the long view of life on earth and thinking about how every single bit of it appears to be a continuation of the same processes that ignited in the very first recognizable organism. :)
 
2010-08-24 01:37:33 AM
horse-pheathers: Life begins....? Pah.

See, this is what I don't get. Life begins should imply the ability to live on your own right? A fetus cannot, absolutely cannot live outside of it's mother at under, what, 23 weeks of development? It's iffy then, but I think that's the youngest a fetus was delivered and survived. Shouldn't that be the arguable point of life?

At the very least, I think it should be obvious to even the rabid so-called 'pro-life' people that a fetus cannot be alive before either brain waves or a heart beat. I cannot remember right now which comes first, but can't we really all agree that without at least one of those it's just a tumor with potential?
 
2010-08-24 01:42:22 AM
horse-pheathers: But that stuff isn't as fascinating as taking the long view of life on earth and thinking about how every single bit of it appears to be a continuation of the same processes that ignited in the very first recognizable organism. :)

While I agree that the biological ideas are much more interesting, this is definitely a topic more about the legal definitions of "life" and what they should be.

Also...

The real question here is perhaps when that particular bit of the super-organism that sprouts from the combination of human sperm and egg itself becomes human.

This question seems a bit essentialist. Given how you just presented life as a great continuum, how do you define human from not human?

/just some thoughts sparked by your posts :)
 
2010-08-24 01:45:43 AM
It doesn't matter when life begins. When you realize people suck, you realize you could do without a good number of them.
 
2010-08-24 01:47:13 AM
my friend and his wife lost their triplets at 21 weeks. they each lived about 30 minutes but couldn't survive outside the womb. basically the first amniotic sack ruptured and triplet A was born. Then his wife started going into sepsis because her white blood cells were treating the other fetuses as a blight. they had to induce labor and she lost the other two.

it technically wasn't an abortion because the triplets were birthed, but if they hadn't she could have died.

it makes me incredibly angry that there are people out there that would care to pass laws that would force a woman to carry a baby even if her body was rejecting it. It was clearly the saddest day of their lives and i'm extremely sorry they had to live through that, but they were able to make that choice to save her life and I'm glad they did.
 
2010-08-24 01:54:49 AM
GAT_00: horse-pheathers: Life begins....? Pah.

See, this is what I don't get. Life begins should imply the ability to live on your own right? A fetus cannot, absolutely cannot live outside of it's mother at under, what, 23 weeks of development? It's iffy then, but I think that's the youngest a fetus was delivered and survived. Shouldn't that be the arguable point of life?

At the very least, I think it should be obvious to even the rabid so-called 'pro-life' people that a fetus cannot be alive before either brain waves or a heart beat. I cannot remember right now which comes first, but can't we really all agree that without at least one of those it's just a tumor with potential?


In general, it's about 22 weeks, and that's stretching it.

The issue isn't about when "life" begins, it's about terminating a life. That's what abortion does--it kills potential babies. I don't like it. No one likes it.

Everyone knows this. It's whether or not you have the right to kill your baby without government influence.
 
2010-08-24 01:57:34 AM
Sun God: It's whether or not you have the right to kill your baby without government influence.

It's not a baby until it is alive outside of the womb. It's a fetus, a parasitic tumor, and it is the woman's body and the woman's decision, period. That shouldn't even be a discussion.
 
2010-08-24 02:03:38 AM
GAT_00: Sun God: It's whether or not you have the right to kill your baby without government influence.

It's not a baby until it is alive outside of the womb. It's a fetus, a parasitic tumor, and it is the woman's body and the woman's decision, period. That shouldn't even be a discussion.


i hate the term 'parasitic tumor'. That's not what a fetus is. Stop saying this. To an expectant mother, her fetus is not a tumor. It's her baby. Sometimes things happen that put one or the other (or both) at risk. At that point it should be a decision between the woman, her partner and her doctor.

You'll be hard pressed to find any woman who wants a child, has been with child, or has had a child call a fetus a parasitic tumor. the idea that some men feel this way or would say this is as disgusting as the people trying to legislate our uterus. just stop it.
 
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