A Sports Guy thread? Been a while....

Can't wait for people to hate on him because he's a homer. Or how he was better before the Red Sox won in '04. Or how his NFL picks are no better than a coin flip. Or how his NBA columns are boring.

Followed by the people who will remind you that you don't have to read him if you don't like him.

/likes him
//hates these threads

mitchcumstein1: I stopped reading when he said Charles Barkley was one of the 20 greatest NBA players of all time.

It's definitely arguable, but I'd say if you were trying to name the 20 greatest, Sir Charles belongs in the discussion

Disclaimer: I willingly bought Simmons' Book of Basketball, which has his opinions of the top 96 NBA players to the time of publication. While I disagreed with the ordering (Kobe a shade too low, Iverson way to high etc. Also, I'd have Bird above Magic) I could not disagree with the names therein.

Although rating the '86 Celtics over the '96 (72-win) Bulls in his team chapter was utter bullshiat.

LucklessWonder: Kobe a shade too low, Iverson way to high

He's since admitted that both of these are probably true.

I'm only pissed that Nolan was wearing a Rangers jersey instead of an Astros jersey for the asskicking.

bmfderek: I'm only pissed that Nolan was wearing a Rangers jersey instead of an Astros jersey for the asskicking.

That would have been awesome. Hey Ventura! You got your ass kicked by an old guy wearing a rainbow on his chest!

homarjr: A Sports Guy thread? Been a while....

Can't wait for people to hate on him because he's a homer. Or how he was better before the Red Sox won in '04. Or how his NFL picks are no better than a coin flip. Or how his NBA columns are boring.

Followed by the people who will remind you that you don't have to read him if you don't like him.

/likes him
//hates these threads

I submitted his last column, in which he wrote about a supposed encounter with John Hannah when Simmons was tending bar. Hannah explained his 1970s holdout on the grounds that it was about respect, not money, and said that being underpaid would have sapped his confidence. And Simmons bought it. Simmons bought same "it's about respect" line that agents have been feeding their players for 30 years or more. Simmons believed that John Freaking Hannah, one of the most dominant and imposing human beings ever to don football pads, could have gone all emo because of the way the front office paid him and what that meant they must have thought about him. There could have been a good thread about that. But alas, no greenlight.

/but it's not too late to have the good thread about it now....

I'll wait for the Tommy from Quinzee version.

Dolan is awful. Checketts was awful. I don't know what would happen if the MSG ownership was ever competent.

Hell, I'm a White Sox fan and now I'm considering buying a signed copy of that Ryan-Ventura picture.

mitchcumstein1: Nate Archibald at 60 is a travesty, Stockton not in the top 20 is a crime and Wilt at 7 and Oscar at 9 is a farking joke.

I'll be honest, I don't know enough about Nate Archibald to be able to comment. As for Stockton, who would you drop out of the top 20 to accommodate him? The only one I could see is maybe Moses Malone, but that might just be because I don't like Moses.

As for Wilt and Oscar, I think they should switch spots. As I said, I agree with 99% of the players, just not neccessarily where they are ranked.

robsul82: LucklessWonder: Although rating the '86 Celtics over the '96 (72-win) Bulls in his team chapter was utter bullshia

He's been biatching about that for years.

And he's been wrong for years on that one.

FTFA:nd eventually, I think Robin Ventura is going to snap, fly to Texas, show up at a Rangers game with his fists balled and say "All right, old man, you want a piece of me???" It's going to be like a scene from a bad '80s sports movie -- the downtrodden loser getting his revenge in the end -- but it's going to happen in our lifetimes.

I hope this happens, because Nolan would beat the hell out of Ventura, again.

//And then go back to hawking beef during commercials.

drew46n2: isn't it great? Rangers in 1st place, Astros continuing to suck, just like all Houston sports in general.

FTFY.

kobe may be a great player, but he's an ass and perhaps a rapist. i can't farking stand his fakeness and would hate to be his teammate. nah, i'm kidding if i could play in the NBA (and cash their paychecks and live their life) i would even if it was with that douchenozzle kobe.

jayhawk88: If any of us found out one day we were getting paid 30% what most of our co-workers were getting, they'd be lucky if we didn't torch the building, let alone quit on the spot or demand a raise. When you also consider that there wasn't any free agency back then...yeah, I probably would have held out too.

Not only paid less, but considered better at your job than almost everyone else too.

Let's say I retired in 20 years and turned this column over to my son, but he couldn't write and didn't know anything about sports. You would think this was weird. You would make fun of him. You would say, "Why the hell would ESPN employ Simmons' son, isn't this the strangest thing ever?" "Man, this kid is a chip off the old block"

Fixed

Simmons is only tolerable outside of NBA season, seriously the guy just can't shut up about the Celtics and nobody cares.

Oh gawd. That Nolan Ryan-Robin Ventura thing again?

Haven't you people ever gave anyone noogies?

You probably haven't thought about that fight in a while.

You must not surf around much.

It's pathetic that Nolan Ryan did all he did in his career and this is what people talk about now.

Gonz [TotalFark] Quote 2010-08-20 12:57:39 PM
drew46n2: isn't it great? Rangers in 1st place, Astros continuing to suck, just like all Houston sports in general.

FTFY.

Hey, there's a lot of good cocaine in Houston

mitchcumstein1: Oscar at 9 is a farking joke.

Completely agree. And I have no problem with Barkley in the top 20 - you could slide him to 25 maybe but no lower than that.

drew46n2: i'll just leave this here.

I liked and respected both those players. I just get sad for Robin Ventura that he'll probably be remembered most for this when he was actually an extremely good fielder and hit a lot of grand slams.

JerseyTim: ALL his baseball stuff is about the Red Sox, however.

Yep. Even when it's not about the Red Sox, he'll find a way to steer it to the Red Sox. Some team makes a big play and the column will turn to "it's just like that stolen base Dave Roberts had in the ALCS...." and the next thing you know, there are three paragraphs on why the Dave Roberts stolen base was a paradigm-shifting event.

drew46n2: i'll just leave this here.

They Ryan-Ventura fight is sort of like the famous Bo Jackson - Brian Bosworth collision, which was the subject of a thread a few days ago. The general consensus there was that it was one of the more overrated "pwnage" moments in sports history; Bosworth made a poor tackle but it's not like he was physically overpowered and steamrolled into the endzone as many people seem to have remembered it. I put the Ryan-Ventura fight in the same category. Ryan did just fine, but to hear people tell the story you'd think he went all Chuck Norris on Ventura's sorry little juvenile ass. As it happened, Ryan landed a couple of noogies and then was swept under the wave of the brawl; it was not nearly the epic ass-kicking so many people seem to think it was.

Is this an advertisment for the Sports Guy? I stopped reading once he got all snarky and thought he was the most incredible thing ever.

Greenlit?

Lame.

I think this guy gets paid by the word

mitchcumstein1: Really, I don't know? Barkley never lead the league in rebounding, scoring, or blocks, or really anything. He was a very good defender, especially for his size, I will give him that, but he never won a title, he was never the best at anything in the league.

Wow, is there any way you could be more wrong? You even praised him for the thing he wasn't good at!

Barkley won an MVP over Jordan right in the middle of Jordan's prime. He arguably should have won an MVP over Magic in Magic's prime (he received more 1st place votes than Magic and was named "NBA player of the year" by a lot of publications, but came in 2nd). Plus he was a VERY effecient scorer for somebody who scored as much as he did (he shot 60% at least 1 year) and a very very good rebounder. I think that he certainly belongs in the top 20.

mitchcumstein1: He was good, but at the end of the day, he was a 6'4' power forward who was good at a lot of things, but great at nothing. He was an all time top 25 personality, but I don't see it as a player. There are a lot of guys who did a lot things a lot better than he did.

He probably never was the best at anything. But he was really damn good at all the major stats and he performed consistently for a long time. From the wiki:

In 2000, he retired as one of only four players in NBA history with 20,000 points, 10,000 rebounds and 4,000 assists

Yeah, he gets some buzz from being a funny guy. And he was short for his position so maybe the mundane seems more incredible because of his height. And you can get all star teams you don't deserve. But you can't fake the points, rebounds and assists. He was a legitimately great player.

bronyaur1: ESPN: People magazine for sub-40 yr old males.

I skipped the jennifer aniston part. WTF? If The Boston Sports Guy of maybe 10-15 years ago read that shiat he'd invent the time machine just so he could come to the future to kill himself. I like writers who can be nuanced and discuss other topics. I'd just prefer those topics not be the only stuff somehow more meaningless than professional sports.

JohnBigBootay: bronyaur1: ESPN: People magazine for sub-40 yr old males.

I skipped the jennifer aniston part. WTF? If The Boston Sports Guy of maybe 10-15 years ago read that shiat he'd invent the time machine just so he could come to the future to kill himself. I like writers who can be nuanced and discuss other topics. I'd just prefer those topics not be the only stuff somehow more meaningless than professional sports.

Moving to LA did turn Bill's brain into mush, no doubt.

mitchcumstein1: One of the 20 best players ever? No.

Name your top 20 or STFU.

i think Kobe winning his fifth championship might move Simmons back to the "under dog" status, or make his head explode (either would be entertaining). if they win this year again, i will love reading his columns next year.

his responses to the Shaq signing have been also fun to watch.

R.P.M.: i think Kobe winning his fifth championship might move Simmons back to the "under dog" status, or make his head explode (either would be entertaining). if they win this year again, i will love reading his columns next year.

I think you might be on to something. Six out of every twenty four columns he writes he has to mention something about Kobe's Game 7 performance.

/including this one

bronyaur1: ESPN: People magazine for sub-40 yr old males.

He has female fans too. I've always laughed uproariously at his NBA Draft Night exchanges with his dad.

And I LOVED the Smaqdown in this column and hate Kobe as much as Shaq does.

/Malcom Gladwell wrote the foreword in "The Book of Basketball?"

drew46n2: bmfderek: I'm only pissed that Nolan was wearing a Rangers jersey instead of an Astros jersey for the asskicking.


isn't it great? Rangers in 1st place, Astros continuing to suck, just like all Houston sports in general.

I see you are a Cowboys, Longhorns and Spurs fan. WTF? You're all over the map dude. I don't know what to rank on. What'd Houston do to you anyways?

tdpatriots12: R.P.M.: i think Kobe winning his fifth championship might move Simmons back to the "under dog" status, or make his head explode (either would be entertaining). if they win this year again, i will love reading his columns next year.

I think you might be on to something. Six out of every twenty four columns he writes he has to mention something about Kobe's Game 7 performance.

/including this one

Not coincidentally, only 6 of his last 24 columns have been funny.

mitchcumstein1: I just think great is a stretch. Very Good? Yes. Hall of Famer? Sure. One of the 20 best players ever? No.

we'll have to agree to disagree. You just don't acquire those numbers by being pretty good for a few years. top 20 in FG% all time. Top 20 rebounder. Top 25 in points. If you're a sabermetrics guy he's top ten in player efficiency rating. Top ten in shooting percentage. You leave chuck out of your top 20 and there's a big hole there.

JohnBigBootay: mitchcumstein1: I just think great is a stretch. Very Good? Yes. Hall of Famer? Sure. One of the 20 best players ever? No.

we'll have to agree to disagree. You just don't acquire those numbers by being pretty good for a few years. top 20 in FG% all time. Top 20 rebounder. Top 25 in points. If you're a sabermetrics guy he's top ten in player efficiency rating. Top ten in shooting percentage. You leave chuck out of your top 20 and there's a big hole there.

Almost exactly what I was gonna post.

/Also "Round Mound of Rebound" is a top 20 sports nickname.

mitchcumstein1: I would drop Charles Barkley out of the top 20 for John Stockton without a second thought. I mean, Stockton is #1 all time, in assists and steals, and Charles Barkley never lead the the league...in anything, save personal fouls.

But how much of Stockton was Stockton, and how much of it was because of Stockton-to-Malone?

LucklessWonder: mitchcumstein1: I would drop Charles Barkley out of the top 20 for John Stockton without a second thought. I mean, Stockton is #1 all time, in assists and steals, and Charles Barkley never lead the the league...in anything, save personal fouls.

But how much of Stockton was Stockton, and how much of it was because of Stockton-to-Malone?

The world may never know. We could say that about every player though. Pasty is also the all time leader in steals and almost NEVER missed a game.

PowerSlacker: tdpatriots12: R.P.M.: i think Kobe winning his fifth championship might move Simmons back to the "under dog" status, or make his head explode (either would be entertaining). if they win this year again, i will love reading his columns next year.

I think you might be on to something. Six out of every twenty four columns he writes he has to mention something about Kobe's Game 7 performance.

/including this one

Not coincidentally, only 6 of his last 24 columns have been funny.

His podcasts are much better, and I think he knows it. Greatly depending on the quality of his guests, of course.

LucklessWonder: Almost exactly what I was gonna post.

/Also "Round Mound of Rebound" is a top 20 sports nickname.

Well, Charles is two years older than me and I grew up about 15 miles away. They played our varsity team two years before I was to be on it and I've kept up with him ever since. They beat us 100-40 or 100-60, can't remember anymore but it was easy to see he would be special. Though I doubt anyone could have predicted he'd be an all-time great.

PowerSlacker: tdpatriots12: R.P.M.: i think Kobe winning his fifth championship might move Simmons back to the "under dog" status, or make his head explode (either would be entertaining). if they win this year again, i will love reading his columns next year.

I think you might be on to something. Six out of every twenty four columns he writes he has to mention something about Kobe's Game 7 performance.

/including this one

Not coincidentally, only 6 of his last 24 columns have been funny.

ha! at first i was like, "that's a weird stat", but then i was like "ah!"

at least he does have 15 good podcasts to back those 6 out of 24...

homarjr: mitchcumstein1: One of the 20 best players ever? No.

Name your top 20 or STFU.

I'll bite: Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Big O, LeBron, Kobe, Malone (Moses), Malone (Karl), Pettit, Dr. J, Shaq, Hakeem, The Logo, Baylor, Duncan, Isiah and Cousy. But there could be an argument for Barkley sliding into one of those last spots. It's close; hard to compare a Barkley with an Isiah, but I'd break the tie in favor of the one with the rings. He'd also have to compete with D.Robinson, Havlicek, Mikan, Stockton, Hayes, Garnett and Lucas.

tdpatriots12: PowerSlacker: tdpatriots12: R.P.M.:
His podcasts are much better, and I think he knows it. Greatly depending on the quality of his guests, of course.


If you like reality TV. Which I do.

JohnBigBootay: mitchcumstein1: Oscar at 9 is a farking joke.

Completely agree. And I have no problem with Barkley in the top 20 - you could slide him to 25 maybe but no lower than that.

Wow I would say top 50 is stretching it. Guys not even a top twenty forward.

drew46n2: devilskware: I see you are a Cowboys, Longhorns and Spurs fan. WTF? You're all over the map dude. I don't know what to rank on. What'd Houston do to you anyways?


What'd Houston do to me? I'll tell you...
- when I was 8 we went to Astroworld and spent the whole weekend in a hotel because it was raining.
- when I was 9 we went back to Astroworld and it wasn't even worth the wait. Astroworld is gone. Move on. Go to Fiesta Texas.
- 1995 western conf championship series The Admiral did get raped but you got your championships eventually.
- DJ screw Ugh. Technically from Smithville, but yea.
- Yao Ming ruining all-star voting for western conf centers Blame the Chinese for that.
- Texans fans in San Antonio biatching about too much coverage of 'Merica's Team. I hate the Cowboys but Texans fans have nothing to complain about until their team at least makes the playoffs. Oh yea, 19-10. That's all we got to hang our hat on.

i think that' it...the short list, anyway.

This should be a well formatted post. Whatever, I'm gettin drunk.

mitchcumstein1: Fair enough, but I still think that if you're starting a team you take both Isiah and Stockton before you take Charles.

I love Stockton - he makes everyone better and is happy to let the stars do all the shooting (though he was certainly a competent scorer). His longevity was amazing. Isiah - no way. That team was loaded (and diverse, and well-coached) and I don't think we'd be talking about him near as much if he'd played on a second tier team. Obviously he was a very important piece of the team and played well but we're talking top 20 here. Charles' teams were good just by virtue of him being there. It's not all about the numbers but only playing until 32 hurts isiah in the numbers game to some extent. great player, I just don't think he's top 20

Has anyone noticed how the East has gotten tougher and the West has gotten softer. The road to the championship is so easy for the Lakers coming out of the West.

I think Kobe wanted to get Shaq pissed because he wanted him to play for Chicago or the Celtics (no way Shaq goes to the Heat or Dallas) and Shaq will make life difficult for the Heat. The Heat are HORRIBLE at center. If Wade or LeBron tries to score inside on Shaq it will make Bo Jackson vs. Boz look like a feather hitting a tissue. Also Shaq playing for the Celtics moves Kobe up another rung on the Laker Love Ladder.

I really enjoy reading Simmons but he has been criminally absent in three stories:

1. He does this HUGE soccer thing to show which team he will root for and then he never goes to England to watch a game. His story of going to Mexico was great. I'd look forward to seeing him write about going to a few PL games in the UK.

2. He should be going to more Dodger games and cover the mess that is the current Dodgers. That "rent" scam McCourt is trying to pull is criminal. He ends up paying less in luxury tax to poorer MLB teams and pockets the rest.

3. He should use his time in LA to either delve into the world of UCLA basketball or USC football. Lots of rich material there plus a quick trip up the coast to a Raider game or two.

mitchcumstein1: tarkus1980: mitchcumstein1: Oscar at 9 is a farking joke.

Out of curiousity, of the players in front of him in the list, who would you move behind him?

Everybody but Wilt and Russell.

really? even jordan?

i think the top two are pretty clear russell and jordan or jordan and russell.

Remember, Shaq could have gone to Greece or Italy, pocketed crazy money ($8 million to $10 million easy, tax-free), ...

Tax free? Good advice, Bill. Try earning 8 million dollars abroad and not paying any US tax on that and see what happens when you come back.

Came here just to remind everyone that Simmons is a hack.

Alkoholiker: tdpatriots12: PowerSlacker: tdpatriots12: R.P.M.:
His podcasts are much better, and I think he knows it. Greatly depending on the quality of his guests, of course.


If you like reality TV. Which I do.

honestly, i don't mind Simmons. it took me a little bit of time to figure out that he is just a huge homer. a couple of years ago a friend sent me a link to one of Simmons stories, and i thought the guy was just an anti Kobe/Laker fool.

once i read a couple more, i realized he at least owns up to his bias, and i take it for what it is. entertainment. it's more fun now that Kobe is doing well, because he just twists trying to find something wrong, but eventually just goes "na na, nannibooboo", but then admits that is what he's doing. it's quite entertaining. especially now that he can't pull too hard for Lebron (and now pulls for Durant, who i think at least deserves the attention).

crap, meant to add, that i'll have to check out the podcasts. thanks!

FL8ME: Tax free? Good advice, Bill. Try earning 8 million dollars abroad and not paying any US tax on that and see what happens when you come back.

To be fair I think the first 80k would be exempt. That could buy Shaq like half a car.

mitchcumstein1: He was the third best player on those Rockets teams.

Fair enough but that was the end of the road. He was 33 before he ever suited up for the Rockets and often hurt, particularly the last two years. Certainly not true with the Suns or 76'ers.

tarkus1980: Simmons carefully explained his criteria, and he made a reasoned argument that, within the criteria of what should constitute the championship season that matters most to him, the '86 Celtics should be #1

As long as you and he realize that anyone can develop their own criteria that suits their own favorite team to ensure a different result, I'm fine with that. He didn't really need to go beyond, "I live in Boston and they are my favorite team and my dad took me to games" though. There was no other possible outcome.

drew46n2: 1995 western conf championship series

Was that Robinson's "MVP" year? In what language is MVP short for "Dream's biatch?"

tarkus1980: Well, any analysis of anything, at a certain point, involves a subjective decision of what criteria will be used in the process of analysis.

Agreed, but when you go with...

"which championship season mattered most." with the implied "TO ME" at the end, you can make it be whatever you want.

Part of the reason I'd be ok with choosing the '86 Celtics over other teams is that, when I've pitted the '86 Celtics against other great historical teams (including the '96 Bulls, where I made my own player cards for them based on that year's statistics) in Statis-Pro Basketball, they've tended to come out on top more often than not.

You could make the argument for that in the best teams of all time discussion we've already decided we're not having. I'd have to go with the Lakers (whom I hate) anyway as they sandwiched that celts year and took 5 of 9 in the decade. That Celtics title team was a great team, but I can't award them any more than Simmons' chosen title - most important championship to him... that coincidentally coincides with him heading off to college the next year or so. Lot of reasons for him to love that team but there's no objective reason for other fans to feel they were any more special than the team who won it the year before or after. Typical narcissism.

tarkus1980: The narcissism is part of why we read him, though.

My main point in all of this is that ANY elaborate set of arguments is ultimately going to begin with a baseline set of criteria that are going to reflect a set of biases on the part of the person making the arguments. I don't see how Simmons' tendency towards that constitutes some sort of scandal. Is it because he speaks with such an authoritative tone in explaining how various facts fit into the scheme of his criteria? Would you really prefer he not speak authoritatively? Simmons is kind of a blowhard, and he lends an interesting perspective to things.

I think part of the reason I'm a little more sympathetic towards Simmons than some people here are is that I write online music reviews as a hobby. I have strong opinions about what I like and don't like, and I go to a lot of effort to flesh out, in often excruciating detail, the supporting reasons for my point of view. Thing is, a lot of people still have the idea that because I'm so elaborate and systematic, I'm attempting to pass off my writings as 100% objective fact. I'm not; I'm just trying to give detailed support for my objective opinions.

I completely get you. Good points and I somewhat agree. I've just been reading him off and on for many years. He's changed - which is natural and expected. And so have I I'm sure. It's not only the homerism, it's the tone... and the fact that it's become predictable. He doesn't just root for his favorites - he goes way beyond that and earnestly attempts to convert the reader to his point of view - and sometimes even pushes this odd idea of comparatively superior virtue on the part of his teams and I find a bit off-putting sometimes. I'm not describing it well. He'd never tolerate a differing viewpoint on, say maybe cameragate or the tuck rule game. But when he goes onto to begrudgingly credit the Lakers he can't help but end with a complaint on a supposedly uncalled foul. Or going on and on about how Shaq should quit and signing him for any reason would be stupid... but it's a good move if the Celtics do it. Homer? Fine. But his emotions get the best of him some times and he simply cannot help being a bit petty and self-serving. I think he's be a better writer if he could deal with that stuff a little differently sometimes. He's too thin-skinned. I remember his criticism of tiger woods for designating one reporter to ask some questions and he ranted about this and that and the other and when he was describing it I don't think it occurred to him in the slightest that it wasn't too long before that he'd had his own PR fiasco and he pulled his comments section in less than a week. Which was pretty weak.

Anyway, he occasionally catches my attention still. Loved the dog article.

/tl:dr - not sure how that happened - too much coffee