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(CNN)   Road crosses ruled unconstitutional. Chicken inconsolable   (cnn.com) divider line 642
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19676 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Aug 2010 at 8:15 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-08-19 01:13:57 PM
Kazan: Overfiend: Would a compromise be to erect the religious symbol of the fallen trooper's belief?

no, in this situation the arrangements at National Cemetaries cannot work as each marker is individual and separate from the rest - not part of a grouping. so the casual reasonable observer cannot see that other faiths are included.


Too bad - it would be cool to see a metal FSM memorial - "All hail his noodly holiness!"
 
2010-08-19 01:15:41 PM
DistendedPendulusFrenulum:
I'm not sure I get this. If no state money is used, and they aren't a dangerous obstacle in the ROW, then. . .

Since I RTFA I know that the only thing that was barred were the state using state money to put up the crosses in a project they did for state troopers who had died. It has no bearing on crosses put up by non state entities using none state money.
 
2010-08-19 01:16:31 PM
i.imgur.com

Can the Muslims build a mosque next to the State Patrol building?
 
2010-08-19 01:19:28 PM
ace in your face: Neither has any more proof than the other.

That depends on what sense of the word "proof" you have in mind.

a.imageshack.us
 
2010-08-19 01:20:10 PM
pwhp_67: ace in your face: 2. Atheists proselytize all the time. I know a guy



Well, that's all the proof we needed...


If that isn't your experience then good for you. It isn't my experience that Christians are all bigoted but some people in here disagree. Amazingly, we live in different parts of the country and are surrounded by people with different ideologies and personalities. That may seem hard for you to grasp, but peoples experiences are different, and they aren't invalidated just because you don't share it. If you have an experience then please, share it, but don't tell me mine is wrong just because it isn't yours.


Kazan: pwhp_67: ace in your face: If you get to pick and choose which religions to tolerate then you have already failed. As long school is based on facts and not opinions I am sure it will be fine.


It's not an opinion that leprechauns don't exist.

You saying that it is makes you part of the problem...

indeed any "x doesn't exist" assertion should be viewed as "there is no evidence of X, therefore practically we can consider X to not exist".


But it isn't. Some people do truly mean "that doesn't exist" (which is usually followed by the insinuation "and if you don't believe me you are stupid and wrong"). Some people (yourself I suspect from what you have written) do believe a more expansive statement behind it but the truth is those two statements are not the same.
 
2010-08-19 01:20:52 PM
good headline
 
2010-08-19 01:23:15 PM
DesertDemonWY: lemme get this straight...road crosses are bad, but its ok for the religion that blew up the WTC to build a mosque right next to ground zero?
_______________________________________

lh3.ggpht.com
"blah, blah, blah, blah, blahhhh...9-11"
 
2010-08-19 01:24:47 PM
ace in your face: If that isn't your experience then good for you. It isn't my experience that Christians are all bigoted but some people in here disagree. Amazingly, we live in different parts of the country and are surrounded by people with different ideologies and personalities. That may seem hard for you to grasp, but peoples experiences are different, and they aren't invalidated just because you don't share it. If you have an experience then please, share it, but don't tell me mine is wrong just because it isn't yours.

Even if you were just posting your little anecdote as just that, an anecdote, it came across to me as if you were posting a fact, and we should shut up and respect it. I would guess others saw that as well, based on the reactions to it.
 
2010-08-19 01:24:59 PM
ace in your face: But it isn't. Some people do truly mean "that doesn't exist" (which is usually followed by the insinuation "and if you don't believe me you are stupid and wrong"). Some people (yourself I suspect from what you have written) do believe a more expansive statement behind it but the truth is those two statements are not the same.

practically the difference is nill.

believing in something for which there is no evidence IS retarded.

and despite your attempts to weasel out of it, it is also harmful to society.

especially when the crazies have a political party (the GOP), and the moderates don't oppose them. very few Christians actively oppose the fundamentalists, the rest are enablers.

and they ALL have at least one of the traits that is harmful to themselves and others (without even getting into the philosophical argument that believing in the unsupportable is in itself harmful).
 
2010-08-19 01:25:41 PM
Joce678: jayg22:
Actually you are wrong. The Cemetery in Normandy is considered American Land.

Considered by who? The average redneck might think so but I'm pretty sure it's just the French being kind/respectful (which is as it should be...those people gave their lives in defense of freedom and deserve everybody's respect, regardless of nationality)

OTOH if somebody broke a law there I'm sure the French Police would be the ones to deal with it.


Or people who actaully know about History...

On June 8, 1944, the U.S. First Army established the temporary cemetery, the first American cemetery on European soil in World War II.[1] After the war, the present-day cemetery was established a short distance to the East of the original site.

Like all other overseas American cemeteries in France for World War I and II, France has granted the United States a special, perpetual concession to the land occupied by the cemetery, free of any charge or any tax. This cemetery is managed by the American government, under Congressional acts that provide yearly financial support for maintaining them, with most military and civil personnel employed abroad. The U.S. flag flies over these granted soils.[1]
 
2010-08-19 01:26:43 PM
ace in your face: .....

again: find me a christian who doesn't do AT LEAST ONE of these

Kazan: they infringe upon my freedom when they pass patently religious laws - laws against "obscenity", laws against "gay marriage" (note: i'm straight and married, i'm speaking hypothetically), laws supporting their position. they infringe upon my freedom when they attack school curriculum based on their beliefs.

they harm my physical health when they bomb doctor's offices, and murder doctors. when they ban medical research because their religion doesn't agree with it. when they attack science because it disagrees with them. they harm people's physical health when they refuse to teach them proper sex education. they harm my physical health when the insist unneeded, irreversible, unjustifiable medical procedures be performed on infant males altering their anatomy.

they harm people's mental health when they perpetuate the idea that various natural healthy things (masturbation, non-martial sex, non-traditional relationships [between consenting adults]) are "bad"/"evil"/"sinful". they harm people's mental health when they perpetuate the idea that mental illness is "demons" that must be "exorcised" (Yes this still happens in the US).



/this is by no means an exhaustive list
 
2010-08-19 01:28:31 PM
jayg22: Or people who actaully know about History...

and i've already explained at least twice why it's not a constitutional issue and how it's different from this case...

keep beating that dead horse.
 
2010-08-19 01:28:37 PM
Kazan: ace in your face: There are plenty of Christians who are liberals, and who believe in the separation of church and state

that doesn't mean they don't commit any of those above. any of them even liberal Christians commit the transgressions against mental/relationship health.

ace in your face: I see from your profile you live in a "flyover state" so that probably explains why you don't come across as many liberal Christians as I do in Seattle.

Seattle is demographically 1/3rd atheist. it's also where i want to get a job and move to.

ace in your face: Every gay pride parade, pro choice rally, or anti war event I have gone to has included christians, and any christian I know in Seattle is fairly liberal.

yeah.. you're missing the point. where i said that they might not share all those cited things, and there are things that i didn't cite i could add. but they will all have at least one of them.

ace in your face: Simply believing in god, and jesus, doesn't make you a hate monger.

and i didn't say that, don't misrepresent my statements.

it does, necessarily, make you irrational. irrational individuals are a danger to any democracy.

ShillinTheVillain: That isn't necessarily true. Some powers are also expressly prohibited to the states, including sponsoring or endorsing a religion, but states do retain powers that the federal government does not.

you know what i meant, nitpick :D


Most of the christians I know don't believe in ANY of the things you listed, so if you want to make another list so I can refute then feel free- but you can't just win on "there are totally more I could bring up but I am not gonna". I don't think it is irrational to believe in god by definition, so I don't agree with you about that. I think its as silly as when people say "OMG he doesn't believe in god thats so dumb I can't vote for him". Poppycock. I vote based on the beliefs and values a candidate carries, and if they believe/don't believe in god in their down time thats no biggie to me. However if in their downtime they engage in other activity I feel is morally wrong then I do judge them for it.
 
2010-08-19 01:31:23 PM
ace in your face: That may seem hard for you to grasp, but peoples experiences are different, and they aren't invalidated just because you don't share it.

The problem is not the validity of the experience, but the validity of the interpretation ascribed to that experience.
 
2010-08-19 01:36:09 PM
abb3w: ace in your face: That may seem hard for you to grasp, but peoples experiences are different, and they aren't invalidated just because you don't share it.

The problem is not the validity of the experience, but the validity of the interpretation ascribed to that experience.


Would it help if I revise to "A lot of Atheists I know proselytize all the time". I figured that by definition of me typing it it would indicate that this is MY experience. I know tons of super liberal christians. Apparently thats not everyones experience either.
 
2010-08-19 01:36:25 PM
My only problem with the crosses is they are attempting to "honor" those who deserve none.


/ The only good.......
 
2010-08-19 01:40:27 PM
ace in your face: Most of the christians I know don't believe in ANY of the things you listed,

bullshiat, even the most liberal Christians i know at minimum subscribe to the virgin/whore dichotomy w/ the accompany male vs female double standard.
 
2010-08-19 01:40:47 PM
ace in your face: But it isn't. Some people do truly mean "that doesn't exist" (which is usually followed by the insinuation "and if you don't believe me you are stupid and wrong"). Some people (yourself I suspect from what you have written) do believe a more expansive statement behind it but the truth is those two statements are not the same.

I still think you're giving religion some special privileges here, just for being religion. There's no teapot, and no invisible fire-breathing dragon. There's no Flying Spaghetti Monster, no Thor, no Zeus, no Leprechauns, no Loch Ness Monster, no Invisible Pink Unicorn, no perpetual motion machine. None of these things actually exist within the boundaries of what we mean when we use the word "exist."

But, oh, when it comes to modern religion, we have to break it down to very fine distinctions to avoid annoying people who don't think orbital teapots, invisible fire-breathing dragons, flying spaghetti monsters, Thor, Zeus, leprechauns, Loch Ness monsters, invisible pink unicorns, or perpetual motion machines exist either.

It's pedantic and it's tiresome.
 
2010-08-19 01:41:42 PM
ace in your face: but don't tell me mine is wrong just because it isn't yours.


I wasn't telling you that you were wrong because I have a different experience. I was pointing out how asinine a statement like: 2) Group X does Y because I know one guy who did this...


That's farking stupid. You're getting upset with people for saying Christians do ___________ , which they're basing on the actions of millions of people, because you know some that don't but then you write:

ace in your face: 2. Atheists proselytize all the time.

And back it up with one guy doing something one time...
 
2010-08-19 01:42:52 PM
ace in your face: but you can't just win on "there are totally more I could bring up but I am not gonna".

i didn't say i wasn't going to, i just made a point of saying that it wasn't an exhaustive list. the ones that aren't on it are the ones that i don't readily recall and require me sitting and thinking about for a while to remember.

ace in your face: Apparently thats not everyones experience either.

you're seeing america through the filter of the city with the highest percentage of self-identifying atheists (at 1/3rd of the population).
 
2010-08-19 01:43:13 PM
ace in your face: Some people do truly mean "that doesn't exist"


Yeah, because it doesn't. Writers came up with leprechauns in fairy tales they told in the Middle Ages. They're not real. Neither are the monsters in your closet or under the bed. It's not that hard to comprehend...
 
2010-08-19 01:48:21 PM
Kazan: ace in your face: Most of the christians I know don't believe in ANY of the things you listed,

bullshiat, even the most liberal Christians i know at minimum subscribe to the virgin/whore dichotomy w/ the accompany male vs female double standard.


Most people I know, atheists and Christians alike, don't think you should be a whore because its stupid and gross (and we call man whores out too). Most people I know don't base that idea on anything religious though, and I don't have any friends in Seattle that have (or even thought to) save their virginity for marriage or any other nonsense. That isn't something all christians believe in.

/I do know some crazy christians now, but thats just because my husband is in the Army. I can see how if those were the only ones you had ever known your ideas on it would be skewed.
 
2010-08-19 01:48:53 PM
pwhp_67: ace in your face: Some people do truly mean "that doesn't exist"


Yeah, because it doesn't. Writers came up with leprechauns in fairy tales they told in the Middle Ages. They're not real. Neither are the monsters in your closet or under the bed. It's not that hard to comprehend...


Once one truly believes in magic they lose the ability to follow logic.

Just let this one go- she'll never understand your arguments and she seems unwilling to abort her unborn child even though we asked her politely.

In short- take the cool hand luke appropch with this dingbat. There are some [wo]men you just can't reach...
 
2010-08-19 01:50:21 PM
ace in your face:
Most of the christians I know don't believe in ANY of the things you listed


Most of them are holy commandments from the Bible and are therefore a requirement for a place in Heaven. I hope you point this out to your Christian friends next time you see them.

Think: It's their immortal soul that's in danger, you wouldn't want them to go to hell on a technicality, would you?
 
2010-08-19 01:53:44 PM
ace in your face: Would it help if I revise to "A lot of Atheists I know proselytize all the time". I figured that by definition of me typing it it would indicate that this is MY experience. I know tons of super liberal christians. Apparently thats not everyones experience either.

I have a problem with the "proselytize" part of this, using it as an exclusively negative discriptor. If someone says something that you truly think is wrong and quite possibly harmful to themselves and society, is it wrong to try to convince them otherwise?

If someone says "the Government is evil and we should all live on ranches with automatic weapons and keep the Government out" is it wrong to try and convince him that things aren't as bad as he thinks, and that living on a ranch with machine guns is probably harmful?

If someone says "these horrible books should be banned" is it wrong to try and convince them of the benefits of free speech and how banning books is wrong?

Why is it wrong to try and convince someone that religion might be wrong and bad? What makes religion different from any other opinion? Why is it that if you take an informed and passionate view against religion that it makes you equivalent to someone who roams around door to door trying to sell their god?
 
2010-08-19 01:53:53 PM
ace in your face: Would it help if I revise to "A lot of Atheists I know proselytize all the time".

Some, as it helps suggest that you may be able to distinguish between your personal circle of acquaintance and a statistically representative sample of the national population. Even then, however, I'd statistically expect that's still horribly inaccurate; most Atheists don't talk in their sleep, for example.

There's also the question of what behaviors that you would consider to constitute proselytizing (independent of creed preached), and whether you are more likely to notice and recall such behavior when the viewpoint is more unlike your own.
 
2010-08-19 01:55:38 PM
pwhp_67: ace in your face: Some people do truly mean "that doesn't exist"


Yeah, because it doesn't. Writers came up with leprechauns in fairy tales they told in the Middle Ages. They're not real. Neither are the monsters in your closet or under the bed. It's not that hard to comprehend...


I don't believe that bigfoot is real either but if someone says they saw it I am not going to sit there and try to convince them they are stupid. Its a waste of my time. If they have seen something, or felt something then they have their "proof". Its useless to tell them otherwise and it would just make me look like an asshole.

Kazan: ace in your face: but you can't just win on "there are totally more I could bring up but I am not gonna".

i didn't say i wasn't going to, i just made a point of saying that it wasn't an exhaustive list. the ones that aren't on it are the ones that i don't readily recall and require me sitting and thinking about for a while to remember.

ace in your face: Apparently thats not everyones experience either.

you're seeing america through the filter of the city with the highest percentage of self-identifying atheists (at 1/3rd of the population).


I'm not only seeing that side, I have seen other sides. You are telling me a compassionate christian doesn't exist and I know tons. I also know a lot of people (being that I am around a higher percentage of atheists probably) that do absolutely proselytize atheism. I realize it isn't the experience of the country or the world but you are denying that my experience exists, when it does. Now, here in northern NY where I live now (or as they call it "gods country", I get to be a lot more annoyed with crazy christian dingbats and I usually get to spend time telling them why they are incorrect too.
 
2010-08-19 01:55:59 PM
ace in your face: Most of the christians I know don't believe in ANY of the things you listed,


That's fine, but what percentage of practicing Christians don't believe in those things? A small percentage?

Just because you know what amounts to a handful of Christians doesn't mean your experiences represent the majority of Christians. And I'm just referring to the Christians in this country.

As far as practicing Christians not believing the things that Kazan listed: Why do they still attend mass and hand over their money if they no longer hold the same beliefs as their church?

Seems kind of silly...
 
2010-08-19 02:00:29 PM
ace in your face: Most people I know, atheists and Christians alike, don't think you should be a whore because its stupid and gross (and we call man whores out too).

the virgin/whore dichotomy is litterally that. there is a difference between what you and i were call a whore/manwhore (Someone who has unsafe casual sex) than what they would call a whore (a girl who EVER has had extra-martial sex)
 
2010-08-19 02:02:34 PM
pwhp_67: ace in your face: Most of the christians I know don't believe in ANY of the things you listed,


That's fine, but what percentage of practicing Christians don't believe in those things? A small percentage?

Just because you know what amounts to a handful of Christians doesn't mean your experiences represent the majority of Christians. And I'm just referring to the Christians in this country.

As far as practicing Christians not believing the things that Kazan listed: Why do they still attend mass and hand over their money if they no longer hold the same beliefs as their church?

Seems kind of silly...


qft
 
2010-08-19 02:03:12 PM
ace in your face: I don't believe that bigfoot is real either but if someone says they saw it I am not going to sit there and try to convince them they are stupid. Its a waste of my time. If they have seen something, or felt something then they have their "proof". Its useless to tell them otherwise and it would just make me look like an asshole.


That's really not the point you know. You're taking the position that all members of society have to tolerate anyone's belief in anything, no matter how absurd, unless we can prove beyond all doubt that it doesn't actually exist.

If my kid writes a paper for school about the magical pink unicorn she spent the summer playing with, the teacher can't tell her that she has to write about something that actually happened since it can't be proven that it didn't.

How can you not understand how detrimental to society being such a giant PC pussy is?

I'm sorry I missed a week of work, but you can't fire me because I was abducted by aliens. That's why I wasn't in. PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!

Sometimes you have to call people out on their bullshiat, that doesn't always make you an asshole...
 
2010-08-19 02:03:14 PM
ace in your face: I don't believe that bigfoot is real either but if someone says they saw it I am not going to sit there and try to convince them they are stupid. Its a waste of my time. If they have seen something, or felt something then they have their "proof". Its useless to tell them otherwise and it would just make me look like an asshole.

More likely if you try and convince someone that they probably didn't really see bigfoot/aliens/ghosts/god they get mean and defensive. People who construct these sorts of things into their realities seem to have other problems that prevent them from examining their viewpoints rationally. You never see them sit down and say "well I thought I saw what I might call a ghost, but ghosts seem really unlikely so let's look into this further before I start claiming weird stuff in front of other people." The ones I've encountered all say something more like "IT WAS A GHOST THE LIGHTS WERE FLICKERING AND I FELT COLD AND THERE WAS A SHADOW AND GHOSTS ARE REAL YOU JUST DON'T BELIEVE ME STOP CALLING ME A LIAR!"
 
2010-08-19 02:03:48 PM
Joce678: ace in your face:
Most of the christians I know don't believe in ANY of the things you listed

Most of them are holy commandments from the Bible and are therefore a requirement for a place in Heaven. I hope you point this out to your Christian friends next time you see them.

Think: It's their immortal soul that's in danger, you wouldn't want them to go to hell on a technicality, would you?


The ten commandments aren't very hard to follow.

Epicedion: ace in your face: Would it help if I revise to "A lot of Atheists I know proselytize all the time". I figured that by definition of me typing it it would indicate that this is MY experience. I know tons of super liberal christians. Apparently thats not everyones experience either.

I have a problem with the "proselytize" part of this, using it as an exclusively negative discriptor. If someone says something that you truly think is wrong and quite possibly harmful to themselves and society, is it wrong to try to convince them otherwise?

If someone says "the Government is evil and we should all live on ranches with automatic weapons and keep the Government out" is it wrong to try and convince him that things aren't as bad as he thinks, and that living on a ranch with machine guns is probably harmful?

If someone says "these horrible books should be banned" is it wrong to try and convince them of the benefits of free speech and how banning books is wrong?

Why is it wrong to try and convince someone that religion might be wrong and bad? What makes religion different from any other opinion? Why is it that if you take an informed and passionate view against religion that it makes you equivalent to someone who roams around door to door trying to sell their god?


Trying to convince someone about an aspect of their religion, or an aspect of their political beliefs isn't the same thing as trying to fundamentally change their beliefs on whether there is/isn't a god.
 
2010-08-19 02:05:50 PM
ace in your face: Trying to convince someone about an aspect of their religion, or an aspect of their political beliefs isn't the same thing as trying to fundamentally change their beliefs on whether there is/isn't a god.

Why does belief in god get to be that special?
 
2010-08-19 02:09:14 PM
Joce678: Weezer808:
No, actually what I said was that ancient superstitious practices shouldn't have a place in government decision making, but if a dead christian want s cross on the site of his death, who are any of us to say no?

The article was about putting up twelve foot crosses on public land. Me? I'd say no (and the courts did too).

I'm sure if I requested a satanic symbol put on the site of my death the Christians would be up in arms over it. Do unto others, etc.

If somebody wants to put up a cross on private land then it's a completely different argument (though it seems to be what you're saying...?)


You can put up your satanic symbol and I won't care. And since Christians wish each other "Godspeed" or "I'll see you in God's Kingdom", I guess instead I will say to you, "have fun in Hell"?
 
2010-08-19 02:09:39 PM
pwhp_67: ace in your face: Most of the christians I know don't believe in ANY of the things you listed,


That's fine, but what percentage of practicing Christians don't believe in those things? A small percentage?

Just because you know what amounts to a handful of Christians doesn't mean your experiences represent the majority of Christians. And I'm just referring to the Christians in this country.

As far as practicing Christians not believing the things that Kazan listed: Why do they still attend mass and hand over their money if they no longer hold the same beliefs as their church?

Seems kind of silly...


A lot of churches themselves are liberal, not just the parishioners who attend them.
Kazan: ace in your face: Most people I know, atheists and Christians alike, don't think you should be a whore because its stupid and gross (and we call man whores out too).

the virgin/whore dichotomy is litterally that. there is a difference between what you and i were call a whore/manwhore (Someone who has unsafe casual sex) than what they would call a whore (a girl who EVER has had extra-martial sex)


Yes and most people who believe in god that I know engage or have engaged in premarital sex. Yet they still believe in god. Not just Christians, but Jews, and Muslims too.
 
Ral
2010-08-19 02:11:11 PM
Molavian: 1nsanilicious: I wonder what are some thing to sue Atheists for?

I dunno, they seem to pull some of the most retarded, asshole sh*t I've seen, though. Easily on the level of christer fundies.


Yeah it's people like this who make my husband look bad. He's an atheist, but he's not in your face about it, and certainly doesn't get involved in any of that retarded "activism".

This thing with the roadside crosses is just mean-spirited.

As my husband has commented, "There are more important issues atheists could be involved with than whether the word 'God' is on our money."
 
2010-08-19 02:11:26 PM
ace in your face: Trying to convince someone about an aspect of their religion, or an aspect of their political beliefs isn't the same thing as trying to fundamentally change their beliefs on whether there is/isn't a god.

But this is the very core of why you are illogical- you believe that there is one.

Why exactly is it that we can't point out your fundamental flaw? We are allowed to point out "aspects" of your logical shortcomings but not the underlying miscalculation on your part that has allowed you to think such gibberish?

What if our pointing out your misunderstandings is done in the hopes that you actually begin to understand at some point and become a better person (or at lease one less dangerous to society)? Then can we tackle your core deficiency?
 
2010-08-19 02:13:04 PM
Epicedion: ace in your face: Trying to convince someone about an aspect of their religion, or an aspect of their political beliefs isn't the same thing as trying to fundamentally change their beliefs on whether there is/isn't a god.

Why does belief in god get to be that special?


To put this another way, if I, for example, believe that Earth is a big lie and that we really live on the planet Wasdfkhjf in the Ioijfl sector of the Great Intergalactic Empire and it's all a big coverup by a government we have no access to or evidence of, then trying to convince me otherwise would be trying to fundamentally altering part of my basic views of reality and shouldn't ever be done? This view is silly and unprovable, but should give you some insight into how this idea that there's an all-powerful super-being just might be viewed by someone who doesn't hold that belief.

Of course, if 80% of the world believed it, I'm sure the people who said "you know, this seems ridiculous and maybe we should stop" would probably get yelled at a lot, too.
 
2010-08-19 02:13:41 PM
holy fark sticks this is retarded... It is not their job to judge based on what hypothetical people might think. also, road crosses are not an endorsement of a religion, they are merely a recognition that someone dead was of a certain religion... god I hope this gets overturned...
 
2010-08-19 02:13:56 PM
Kazan: again: find me a christian who doesn't do AT LEAST ONE of these

There are more than a few; it's not uncommon (in my acquaintance) for liberal Catholics being fine with sex education in public schools, evolution, stem cell research, and legalizing gay marriage. While it's hard to turn up many "fine" with abortion, finding those who consider re-criminalization a stupidly unacceptable approach to reducing the abortion rate is also not that challenging.

I suspect both my parents would qualify, and probably at least one of my sisters. (I'm not sure about my oldest sib's position on abortion these days.)
 
2010-08-19 02:15:39 PM
Magorn: mark12A: Sorry boys, you've just been ruled unconstitutional....

If you look at file name of the picture you've just posted you'd know that i's a pciture of Muesse-argonne cemetary in FRANCE. Now I understand some farkers can be slightly slow, or shall we say, "tardy"; but can you explain to me what the fark the US Constitution has to do with the rule for a FRENCH cemetary?

So the only question is, are you really dumb enough not to understand this or were you deliberately obfuscating the issue with an appeal to emotion?


The Christians took over FRANCE? Why was I not notified?
 
2010-08-19 02:17:47 PM
pwhp_67: ace in your face: I don't believe that bigfoot is real either but if someone says they saw it I am not going to sit there and try to convince them they are stupid. Its a waste of my time. If they have seen something, or felt something then they have their "proof". Its useless to tell them otherwise and it would just make me look like an asshole.


That's really not the point you know. You're taking the position that all members of society have to tolerate anyone's belief in anything, no matter how absurd, unless we can prove beyond all doubt that it doesn't actually exist.

If my kid writes a paper for school about the magical pink unicorn she spent the summer playing with, the teacher can't tell her that she has to write about something that actually happened since it can't be proven that it didn't.

How can you not understand how detrimental to society being such a giant PC pussy is?

I'm sorry I missed a week of work, but you can't fire me because I was abducted by aliens. That's why I wasn't in. PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!

Sometimes you have to call people out on their bullshiat, that doesn't always make you an asshole...


The teacher should call and talk to the parents. Thats what parents are for- breaking down childrens dreams.

Epicedion: ace in your face: Trying to convince someone about an aspect of their religion, or an aspect of their political beliefs isn't the same thing as trying to fundamentally change their beliefs on whether there is/isn't a god.

Why does belief in god get to be that special?


It isn't that its "special". Belief or disbelief in god is based on your experience (or lack there of). I know people who believe in god because thy think the way things work out are too perfect to be designed by nature or happenstance, and I know people who believe that god has in some way preformed a miracle in their life. Conversely I know people who don't feel god exists because of the amount of sad things that happen in the world, or the lack of "proof" of god. Either way, a persons belief or disbelief in god is entirely based on their "proof" of a feeling or a lack of any real proof of the contrary. To argue that they should feel a different way then they do is stupid to me.

Conversely, there are statistics to back up why a political view is important, and there is a constitution to compare laws to if there is any question. There are arguments and counter arguements, and you will definitely have "feelings" about some views, but it isn't the same 100% faith based feeling that a person has with religion.

I don't think its wrong to argue different aspects of religion (with someone who is a willing participant) but the fundamental belief that there is or is not a god is a silly thing to argue.
 
2010-08-19 02:20:07 PM
Epicedion: Epicedion: ace in your face: Trying to convince someone about an aspect of their religion, or an aspect of their political beliefs isn't the same thing as trying to fundamentally change their beliefs on whether there is/isn't a god.

Why does belief in god get to be that special?

To put this another way, if I, for example, believe that Earth is a big lie and that we really live on the planet Wasdfkhjf in the Ioijfl sector of the Great Intergalactic Empire and it's all a big coverup by a government we have no access to or evidence of, then trying to convince me otherwise would be trying to fundamentally altering part of my basic views of reality and shouldn't ever be done? This view is silly and unprovable, but should give you some insight into how this idea that there's an all-powerful super-being just might be viewed by someone who doesn't hold that belief.

Of course, if 80% of the world believed it, I'm sure the people who said "you know, this seems ridiculous and maybe we should stop" would probably get yelled at a lot, too.


I am sure you would find followers. The flat earth society still exists and there are pictures of the earth.
 
2010-08-19 02:20:15 PM
ace in your face: I don't think its wrong to argue different aspects of religion (with someone who is a willing participant) but the fundamental belief that there is or is not a god is a silly thing to argue.

Which is why you fail.
 
2010-08-19 02:25:31 PM
Ral: Yeah it's people like this who make my husband look bad. He's an atheist, but he's not in your face about it, and certainly doesn't get involved in any of that retarded "activism".

Please name one atheist that has ever accomplished anything politically for religious freedom, atheism, or atheists, and has not been "in your face about it."

Ral: This thing with the roadside crosses is just mean-spirited.

No, the thing with the roadside cross was that the cross in question was unconstitutional. The government spent money to put a big religious symbol on the side of the road with a big state organization symbol on it. They might as well have hung a sign that said "The Utah State Highway Patrol Loves Jesus." They aren't allowed to do this, so they should never have done it in the first place. If we all said "oh, well, that's okay I guess" then we'd see it happen again and again and again, each time being just as unconstitutional as the first. Stitches hurt, but we've got to repair these damages to religious freedom and religion/government separation somehow, starting somewhere.

Ral: As my husband has commented, "There are more important issues atheists could be involved with than whether the word 'God' is on our money."

There are. However it's still an issue, and atheists aren't an organization. There wasn't a collection of dues and a vote on which religious group to piss off this time.

Besides, what you just said your husband said is the same thing that people always say whenever these issues come up: atheists could apparently always be doing something more important than...

1) Putting that word out that disbelief is okay, on billboards or buses
2) Trying to get Under God taken out of the Pledge
3) Trying to get God taken off the money
4) Trying to get rid of school-sponsored prayers
5) Trying to separate religious iconography from the justice system
6) Trying to keep religious displays off of public property and utilizing public funds
7) Trying to keep religious organizations from receiving special privileges from the government

And so on.

What, then, would you/he consider a worthwhile issue for atheists?
 
2010-08-19 02:26:07 PM
I'm a stickler to the Establishment Clause but this just seems like a badly reasoned opinion to me. (Of course, it could have something to do with the CNN interpretation of a relatively long opinion.)

The "expressly visiting" comparison to Arlington and other national cemeteries is not apt: EVERYBODY who has a loved one buried at a cemetery must see the crosses whether they like to or not. Opining that someone's wife/mother/husband/father/son/daughter/etc will choose to stay away from a grave because it is surrounded by religious symbols they may not agree with is plain stupid. In that way, it is the EXACT same situation as the crosses on the side of the highway.

However, if ONLY crosses were being planted with no consideration to the dead person's actual religion (or desires), then I would see a problem. The state, in that case, would not be neutral towards religion but would be expressly endorsing Christianity. The article is somewhat vague on this point but this would be a much more relevant comparison to the national cemeteries, where any belief (or non-belief) symbol may be chosen to mark a grave, not just the cross.
 
2010-08-19 02:33:43 PM
schattenteufel:

Good man. Of course he did have to be in a war against a global superpower to accomplish it.
 
2010-08-19 02:35:20 PM
ace in your face:
The ten commandments aren't very hard to follow.


Are you making sure they don't cook or wash the dishes on Sunday?

If not, then...

www.apuritansmind.com
 
2010-08-19 02:37:00 PM
ace in your face: The teacher should call and talk to the parents. Thats what parents are for- breaking down childrens dreams.


According to you, nobody has the right to tell that child she didn't spend all summer playing with a magical unicorn unless they can prove to her that she didn't. You said that you can't claim to know what another person saw or what they believe.

And don't ignore my workplace scenario either; once you start moving in that direction and raising children to believe your messed up logic - that is the road you'll be on...
 
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