adeist69: That's understandable then. Did the textbook you were proofreading have enough football terminology to make it comprehendable to Aggies?

The book's generally for graduate level, and they've got enough out-of-staters in the program that someone can read it to the natives.

And you know what's really farking ridiculous? They're hoarding all the cute maritime archaeologists. (new window)

public option: To be honest, I have always admired RE Lee, and hi abilty to roitinely embarass federal armies usually 3 times the size of his own. Nathan Bedford Forrest was a bad-ass as well.

However, when he was facing Union forces more or less the same size, he didn't tend to come out so well. e.g., Gettysburg, Seven Days.
Or to quote Longstreet, when asked by Lee what he thought the Union casualties of Seven Days campaign would come up to, said deadpan "We hurt them almost as bad as they hurt us."

Hey cynicalbastard, as far as the 7 days, lee scared Mcclellan. Sure the Confederay took a beating at Malvern HillN and sure at that point the leaders knew it was going to be a protracted war of attrition. But nevertheless, Lee was finally in charge. We can critique his judgment all day long...Antietam, pickets charge, but ironically his greatest genuis as a general did not surface until 1864, when the outcome was already written on the wall.

/approves

swangoatman: MY great great grandfather DIED in a Confederate Prison Camp. Yep.. Fell out the guard tower. (shakes head, swallows beer)

Yeah? My father is buried at Andersonville.

......many years after the war, but still. It's like they killed him! and he was a Southerner!

GratuityIncluded

I think I still remember all the lyrics to Bonnie Blue flag.

Also, if'n y'all see Josey Wales, tell him the war is over.

Gyrfalcon: Going back to the archaeology angle, I'm amazed that in this day & age of amateur treasure hunters with metal detectors, Civil War buffs, and rampant development builders pouring concrete all over the place, that Camp Lawton could have survived intact and unrummaged for 150 years. Hopefully, they'll be able to learn a lot about the prison camp life that the more notorious camps couldn't tell us.


I read another article (from a Georgia paper here: http://www.coastalcourier.com/news/article/23842/) that made it sound like the site has been closed to the public, and will continue to be.

Also, although Georgia has lots of history, there is comparatively little local interest in it and support for it (aside from the "Sons of Confederate Veterans"-type crap). Most well-read tourists can tell you more about Savannah history than your average local, aside from the small minority actively involved in preservation.

In 100 years, some archeologist will rediscover the ruins at Harris Neck Army Airfield and Livingston House. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_Neck_Army_Airfield) You can still visit some of the old storage buildings but most of the cool stuff (the Livingston House, which was a plantation, and the staff quarters for the airfield) appears to be fenced off and hidden deep in the sub-tropical almost-jungle coastal woods.

booklover555: Gyrfalcon: Going back to the archaeology angle, I'm amazed that in this day & age of amateur treasure hunters with metal detectors, Civil War buffs, and rampant development builders pouring concrete all over the place, that Camp Lawton could have survived intact and unrummaged for 150 years. Hopefully, they'll be able to learn a lot about the prison camp life that the more notorious camps couldn't tell us.


I read another article (from a Georgia paper here: http://www.coastalcourier.com/news/article/23842/) that made it sound like the site has been closed to the public, and will continue to be.

Also, although Georgia has lots of history, there is comparatively little local interest in it and support for it (aside from the "Sons of Confederate Veterans"-type crap). Most well-read tourists can tell you more about Savannah history than your average local, aside from the small minority actively involved in preservation.

In 100 years, some archeologist will rediscover the ruins at Harris Neck Army Airfield and Livingston House. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_Neck_Army_Airfield) You can still visit some of the old storage buildings but most of the cool stuff (the Livingston House, which was a plantation, and the staff quarters for the airfield) appears to be fenced off and hidden deep in the sub-tropical almost-jungle coastal woods.

What helps protect sites best is people not really knowing about them. I'm working on a proposal for a site outside Baltimore for the Fort McHenry bicentennial, and the state is considering applying for a federal grant to preserve a small portion of a battle leading up to the infamous engagement. The land is the only thing that hasn't been swamped by suburban sprawl, and nobody really knows it was a battlefield - which is why we're hoping to actually find something to confirm the location of the battle lines.

UNC_Samurai: TheShavingofOccam123: The fascinating thing is the constitution only mentions negro slavery. I guess indentured servitude and other flavors of slavery weren't important enough to go to war over.

After about 1810 or so, Indians still living in eastern and central North Carolina were considered "persons of color", and could be sold into slavery if you looked the other way long enough. Most laws in NC differentiated between them, primarily because in the late 1820s-early 1830s there was a short-lived African relocation movement.

freetomato: I happened to walk into this nut's shop in Kennesaw.

I got curious, and started browsing the site, until I got to this little gem on the links page:

Go for the GOLD! Experience the New Rapidly Growing Hobby of Recreational Gold, Gem and Relic Prospecting. Enjoy educational hands On Adventure Tour, Utilizing the Latest Technology. Supervised by our knowledgeable and experienced guides.

Wonderful! Not only are they racist farktards, they're racist farktards who condone and encourage treasure hunting and scavenging.

Hey, did you know that Dahlonega, GA was home to a gold rush before 1849? It began in 1828.

/Visiting Savannah next month and will take one of their historical tours. They very much take issue with General Sherman and his brutality.

freetomato: UNC_Samurai: What helps protect sites best is people not really knowing about them.

AND I feel like a jerk for asking booklover555 my question now. I will say though, that I don't litter and I abide by the rule of leaving nature just as I found it, so if they are accessible sites, I'd only leave footprints and take only memories....

And if you find something, try and mark down where you saw it and take it to the state archaeology bureau or university. When we talk to locals, both terrestrial and divers, we try to emphasize that we're cool with any sort of non-disturbing (or in the case of diving, non-invasive) exploration. If you do take a metal detector with you to the beach, take a GPS with you in case you have to record coordinates. Chances are pulling a surface find isn't going to make the least impact on a survey.

MY GOD !!! Someone actually responded to one of my posts. Must be a newbie?
Now if one of those retarded moderators would green light one of my HEADLINES BEFORE they green light a carbon copy written by one of their"friends" hours later and not nearly as clever.
Rant OVER and back on lithium in 3,2,1,

vice_magnet: /Visiting Savannah next month and will take one of their historical tours. They very much take issue with General Sherman and his brutality.

Back in the 90's there was interest in putting a Union monument on Bentonville battlefield. After all, it wasn't just Confederates that died there. But to hear the local press talk about it, you would think that they wanted to build a 20-foot-tall statue of Sherman with a flaming spear in one hand and a baby in the other.

GAT_00: FirstNationalBastard: Let me be the first to call it the "War of Northern Aggression".

Don't joke about that, people actually say that seriously.

That's because essentially that is what it was. The Confederacy never wanted to rule over the United States. A civil war is technically for control of a country, the south simply didn't want to have anything to do with the north. The south didn't want control of the federal government or the northern states or the united states. They wanted out and to be on their own. It was Lincoln and others in the north that wanted to rule the south, to forcibly keep the southern states in the united states. Hence "The War of Northern Aggression" is a far more accurate name than "The Civil War". But like most things that challenge what we are taught in government run grade school, it's considered kookdom. Remember, the winners write the textbooks.

That picture is hard to forget. It was the basis for this dialog :
(from http://www.scribd.com/doc/13330493/Double-Naught-A-Play-in-One-Act)

"God was traveling in Europe for two years, I think. Perhaps He was lying about in Venice or Paris; He was surely not in Georgia. We had corn meal, very coarse and unsalted for our manna, for all our fervent praying. Do you know what a constant diet of corn meal does to the human body? We would have chewed grass like goats if they would only have let us a little way beyond the fence. Your knees and elbows swell up and ache all day and night so you cannot sleep. Any tiny nick or scratch will not heal, worse than that, old scars open themselves back up as though remembering their birth. But the end comes when your teeth loosen themselves from the jaw and you cannot grind the stony meal with them any longer. And then because there is no milk or gruel or Mother's soft white bread, you stretch out in your small patch of stinking mud and leave your wretched body and cares behind. They buried them in a single long pit. Not even the rebs had the energy to dig graves for them all. How many thousand died? You can go to Washington and look it up. It's all there, in the trial records, because they tried and hung the bastard who ran the place. His defense was that he, a simple Major, was obeying the orders of his superior officer, as though he could not look each and every day through the planks and see the Hell on earth that it must be every human's duty to prevent.

And so he was hung, but it gave no comfort to the twelve lads from Company C of the 32nd Illinois who were in an unmarked ditch in the Georgia clay. Two of us made it out. The other one was my friend Ned Barclay. They took a picture of him when we got to the hospital at Annapolis, after the surrender. He terrified the doctors - battlefield surgeons all. Once they cut his rags away to see his two arms ending in stumps still full of maggots feeding on the gangrene, and his knees swollen like melons and his legs that you could touch your fingers around. A cancer had eaten away the bottom of his jaw, and he weighed no more than the rifle I had lost an eternity before. I know, because I carried him in my arms like a bundle of kindling wood out of the stockade and laid him in the train that took us north.

The day after they took his picture, he quit breathing. I think he was holding on so that picture could be made. He probably had the same feeling I had for two years - that this was one tale no one would want to believe."

public option: For all the righteous indignation of you people offended by andersonville:

Elmira

Giddy Up Oom Poppa Oom Poppa Omm Poppa Mow Mow
Giddy Up Oom Poppa Oom Poppa Omm Poppa Mow Mow
Heigh-ho Silver, away

public option: For all those calling the Southern states treasonous, and that is where all these inevitably lead, keep in mind that secession was not prohibited by the constitution. Of course it took 600,000 lives to establish that we are one country, and not a bunch of soveriegn states, but so be it. And you ultra lib farkers that say repartions are in order for blacks, my reply is the 600,000 lives spent in that war. That is your reparations. And welfare.

Abe Lincoln was a socialist, no?

leadmetal: confederate derp

How about we just call it "The War Of Treason In Defense Of Slavery?" Would that be more historically accurate?

TheShavingofOccam123: The fascinating thing is the constitution only mentions negro slavery. I guess indentured servitude and other flavors of slavery weren't important enough to go to war over.

The war wasn't over slavery. Slavery became something that Lincoln used to keep support of the war going. Much like we now hear that US troops must remain in Afghanistan for the rights of women there. The warmongers always need noble things to keep people fighting.

Lincoln was very pro-slavery and racist, but we aren't supposed to pay attention to those writings of his. The reason Lincoln's election was the point where the southern states decided to leave the union was because of his support of tariffs the southerners paid and the federal subsidy of connected northern businesses.

The war was about control, about power. About the federal government exercising power over the states and the people.

Other nations at the time abolished slavery without the brutality and destruction of war. Slavery was going to end in the United States, both in the north and the south war or no war. Southern states leaving or not. Slavery might have continued somewhat longer in the southern states had Lincoln not conquered them, but it still would have ended as it is not a sustainable nor productive form of labor. It is very costly to keep people as laboring prisoners and machines were making it cheaper to pay free people than to keep slaves which because of that condition are generally low-productivity laborers.

leadmetal: The war wasn't over slavery.

Wait, hold on, let's scroll up a little...

TheShavingofOccam123: From the Confederate Constitution.

Article 4, Section 3.3:

In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress

Guess what, it was about slavery. Slavery and treason, but you know that.

sprlpgcn: How about we just call it "The War Of Treason In Defense Of Slavery?" Would that be more historically accurate?

How about we call it "the war ignorant farks who can't be bothered to learn anything beyond what they were force fed in grade school think was about slavery"?

Lincoln was very much racist and favored slavery.
Case in point: http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo104.html Thing is this isn't in isolation. Lincoln made it very clear through his own writings that he did not object to slavery and that the war as not about slavery.

Lincoln also made it very clear that if the southern states were to return but they demanded to retain slavery, he would agree to those terms.

The civil war was about power and money, not a noble cause to 'end slavery'. Slavery was going to end anyway.

sprlpgcn: leadmetal: The war wasn't over slavery.

Wait, hold on, let's scroll up a little...

TheShavingofOccam123: From the Confederate Constitution.

Article 4, Section 3.3:

In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress

Guess what, it was about slavery. Slavery and treason, but you know that.

Actually, slavery was only one point of cause. There were a number of others.

sprlpgcn: leadmetal: The war wasn't over slavery.

Wait, hold on, let's scroll up a little...

TheShavingofOccam123: From the Confederate Constitution.

Article 4, Section 3.3:

In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress

Guess what, it was about slavery. Slavery and treason, but you know that.

So? The US constitution also recognized negro slavery at the time. Lincoln was acting to protect the institution of negro slavery for all of time. Lincoln was a _FRIEND_ of slavery. Lincoln and most of the northern state governments were fine with negro slavery continuing in the south. There was no threat to the institution of negro slavery except by private abolitionist groups. What made Lincoln intolerable to the south was his tax and subsidy policies, he was a friend of slavery.

FirstNationalBastard: Let me be the first to call it the "War of Northern Aggression".

Aunt Elsie called it "The Late Unpleasantness", she died two years ago at the unpleasant age of 106.

Her daddy was a teenager when the nasty yankees came and tortured him and his Mama. That no slaves were owned by most Southerners was sufficient reason for this war to pretend it was about slavery.

freetomato: booklover555: ...appears to be fenced off and hidden deep in the sub-tropical almost-jungle coastal woods.

Are those public access or clearly marked "private property"? I get down Savannah way ocassionally and would rather spend a day snooping around some ruins then in the bars and antique stores that I've seen two dozen times.

Public Access areas. Harris Neck Wildlife Refuge: http://www.fws.gov/harrisneck/

There are still airstrips that you can walk, bike, and drive on. If you want to try to find the ruins, drive around to the back of the refuge (the part that faces the Newport River) by the fountain.

The fountain is a remnant of the Livingston House and there are a few historical markers back there describing the plantation house and the old officers' quarters. There are maintained walking paths, but from what I can tell, they skirt around where I would imagine the ruins to be. When I was there, I wasn't properly dressed to forage through the woods and I didn't have any tools, but if you were familiar with hiking through that kind of jungle-like terrain, I think you'd find something.

adeist69:


My seed has always found purchase, thank you very much.

In spite of Edwina's insides!

freetomato: UNC_Samurai: What helps protect sites best is people not really knowing about them.

AND I feel like a jerk for asking booklover555 my question now. I will say though, that I don't litter and I abide by the rule of leaving nature just as I found it, so if they are accessible sites, I'd only leave footprints and take only memories....

What helps to protect sites is actually protecting them, not letting them rot, fall apart, disappear because of the passage of time, weather, and reappropriation by nature and animals.

i am so excited by this discovery. i've been doing a ton of reading about that era in other parts of the country as well. i just find it fascinating.

UNC_Samurai: And you know what's really farking ridiculous? They're hoarding all the cute maritime archaeologists. (new window)

Archaeology students generally tend to be good looking, I've noticed. Toiling away outdoors in the sun tends to make them fit and tan.

Seriously - has anyone ever seen a pasty, obese archaeology student?

Darth Invictus: UNC_Samurai: And you know what's really farking ridiculous? They're hoarding all the cute maritime archaeologists. (new window)

Archaeology students generally tend to be good looking, I've noticed. Toiling away outdoors in the sun tends to make them fit and tan.

Seriously - has anyone ever seen a pasty, obese archaeology student?

So you are gay... right?

free tomato:
Also check out the Colonial Midway Museum in Midway, GA, billed as "Georgia's Only Colonial Museum." You could stop on your way down to Harris Neck. It's a small house museum, but the curator there is fantastic and she knows A LOT about the local history. She will also give you the key for the Midway Church, which was built in 1792 or so and is one of the few buildings to survive the Civil War (the original church was burned by the British during the Revolution; the now-defunct port town of Sunbury, down Hwy 84, used to be the second most-important GA town after Savannah, but it was burned by two or three times in different wars before the locals gave up.)

If you haven't been to Cumberland and Jekyll Islands yet, you absolutely have to go. Especially Cumberland is absolutely beautiful, and the ruins, former manses of Robber Barons, are fascinating.

/I'm assuming you've been to Ft Pulaski outside Savannah?

Old news is old!

/No really... it's old.
//Am I doin it right?
///Too lazy to see if this joke was already done

CasperImproved: Darth Invictus: Archaeology students generally tend to be good looking, I've noticed. Toiling away outdoors in the sun tends to make them fit and tan.

Seriously - has anyone ever seen a pasty, obese archaeology student?

So you are gay... right?

I was talking about the women, dumbass! :)

I think that the upper classes of Southern soceity felt that slavery might be threatened by the election of Lincoln. But in starting a war, they ended up by bringing about the end they feared most. A protracted war was bound to be the end of slavery. Without slaves, the South could not feed itself and support an army. The Northerners, regardless of how they felt about slaves personally, knew this just as well and allowed Southern slaves to pass through their lines and escaped. It was like a bleeding wound that wouldn't clot- the more slaves escaped, the less the South could function, the less territory its armies could occupy, the more the Union troops could advance- and the more slaves escaped.

Darth Invictus: CasperImproved: Darth Invictus: Archaeology students generally tend to be good looking, I've noticed. Toiling away outdoors in the sun tends to make them fit and tan.

Seriously - has anyone ever seen a pasty, obese archaeology student?

So you are gay... right?

I was talking about the women, dumbass! :)

Just felt that needed clarification ;-)

/Most of the women's I've loved were all smarty pants from one school or the other.

The price of slaves prior to the Civil War was increasing dramatically as the cotton gin allowed more and more cotton to be planted in the deep South as opposed to tobacco further north. Obviously the rise in prices had something to do with inflation but the cotton gin reversed what had seemingly been the inevitable decline and end of slavery.

The Confederate Constitution banned slave importation not because of humane principles but because it allowed the control of the breeding stock.

The Southern leadership--those who wrote the Constitution--wanted slavery to be continued and wanted it defended by the Confederate government. Their constitution clearly states all future states would be slave states.

Peter states it all much more eloquently.

vice_magnet: UNC_Samurai: TheShavingofOccam123: The fascinating thing is the constitution only mentions negro slavery. I guess indentured servitude and other flavors of slavery weren't important enough to go to war over.

After about 1810 or so, Indians still living in eastern and central North Carolina were considered "persons of color", and could be sold into slavery if you looked the other way long enough. Most laws in NC differentiated between them, primarily because in the late 1820s-early 1830s there was a short-lived African relocation movement.

freetomato: I happened to walk into this nut's shop in Kennesaw.

I got curious, and started browsing the site, until I got to this little gem on the links page:

Go for the GOLD! Experience the New Rapidly Growing Hobby of Recreational Gold, Gem and Relic Prospecting. Enjoy educational hands On Adventure Tour, Utilizing the Latest Technology. Supervised by our knowledgeable and experienced guides.

Wonderful! Not only are they racist farktards, they're racist farktards who condone and encourage treasure hunting and scavenging.

Hey, did you know that Dahlonega, GA was home to a gold rush before 1849? It began in 1828.

/Visiting Savannah next month and will take one of their historical tours. They very much take issue with General Sherman and his brutality.

Misplaced. Sherman, while a practitioner of psychological warfare, did not burn down any city. Retreating forces burned the cotton bails, which set fire to the city. Sherman actually had his men assist in fighting the blaze.

There was a lot of Anti-Sherman propaganda floating around, on both sides of the line. Sherman hated the press, and for awhile banned all reporters/writers from his camp, with the threat of being hung for treason.

He was vilified again later in his life after the war, because people thought he might run for political office and attacked him preemptively.

Railroad tracks, etc? Yep, he did those, the aforementioned psychological warfare. Tracks can be replaced after the war, cities, not so much.

FirstNationalBastard: Let me be the first to call it the "War of Northern Aggression".

Yeah, and we kicked their farking butts so farking hard that they are still feeling it generations later!

TheShavingofOccam123: The price of slaves prior to the Civil War was increasing dramatically as the cotton gin allowed more and more cotton to be planted in the deep South as opposed to tobacco further north. Obviously the rise in prices had something to do with inflation but the cotton gin reversed what had seemingly been the inevitable decline and end of slavery.

The Confederate Constitution banned slave importation not because of humane principles but because it allowed the control of the breeding stock.

The Southern leadership--those who wrote the Constitution--wanted slavery to be continued and wanted it defended by the Confederate government. Their constitution clearly states all future states would be slave states.

Peter states it all much more eloquently.

The overseer that did that was fired.

Just like today..the owners are not paying attention to middle management.

And back then..the northern leadership professed - not at the beginning but a bit into the Warah - to not like slavery as they voted to keep "persons of color" from moving and residing in their lily white states.

You saw the KKK move North as the "coloreds" moved North.

You saw the lynchings and race riots show up North as the "coloreds" moved North.

Do not pretend the Great WHITE North gave a good GD shiat about Blacks and slavery. The North is just as much if not more racist than the South.

GAT_00: FirstNationalBastard: Let me be the first to call it the "War of Northern Aggression".

Don't joke about that, people actually say that seriously.

And what are the Southerners gonna do about it? Not rise up, yet again?