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(Some Guy)   China declares war on shoddy construction. This will go about as well as America's war on drugs   (pbs.org) divider line 71
    More: Obvious, declare war, residential areas, development plans  
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3366 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Aug 2010 at 7:37 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-08-18 05:29:19 PM
At least that will result in a net improvement for the society.

Perhaps they should go to Code of Hammurabi building codes. That would tighten things up.

One question I have is is this shoddy construction a case of fraud, saying the building is built to code when it isn't, or is it a case of "We're poor and this is all we can afford."
 
2010-08-18 05:50:31 PM
Crosshair:
One question I have is is this shoddy construction a case of fraud, saying the building is built to code when it isn't, or is it a case of "We're poor and this is all we can afford."


It falls into both camps
 
2010-08-18 06:19:35 PM
Hmmm. Maybe this is why most American municipalities have strict building codes, all of which are universally reviled by developers as "socialist impediments to the free market."

/CATO and the Libertarians can go blow themselves.
 
2010-08-18 07:40:01 PM
Same reason, too!
 
2010-08-18 07:40:21 PM
But they after all the LEADers of the developing world.
 
2010-08-18 07:40:27 PM
CitizenTed: Hmmm. Maybe this is why most American municipalities have strict building codes, all of which are universally reviled by developers as "socialist impediments to the free market."

/CATO and the Libertarians can go blow themselves.


Ah yes, we should bow to the Chinese Government's superior and safe construction, like the 2008 olympics construction.
 
2010-08-18 07:40:36 PM
It's decRare subby, decRare.
 
2010-08-18 07:45:31 PM
CitizenTed: Hmmm. Maybe this is why most American municipalities have strict building codes, all of which are universally reviled by developers as "socialist impediments to the free market."

/CATO and the Libertarians can go blow themselves.


Actually, developers, builders, and other well-connected business interests love regulations and codes because they act as a barrier to market entry for smaller competitors.

Nice try, though.
 
2010-08-18 07:45:43 PM
This will go about as well as America's war on drugs

I don't know about that. When a country's building code enforcement consists of shooting people in the head, you might get pretty good compliance.
 
2010-08-18 07:46:16 PM
Crosshair:

Perhaps they should go to Code of Hammurabi building codes. That would tighten things up."

Loves me some Ancient Babylonian building reference!
 
2010-08-18 07:50:31 PM
They'd better start with the Three Gorges Dam. When that building-inspector's nightmare comes crumbling down it will kill hundreds of thousands.
 
2010-08-18 07:50:49 PM
jjorsett: This will go about as well as America's war on drugs

I don't know about that. When a country's building code enforcement consists of shooting people in the head, you might get pretty good compliance.


We could use a little of that here. A couple years back, one of the student apartment complexes had a little problem with people walking right through their living room floors.
 
2010-08-18 07:51:09 PM
Shoddily made and shoddily maintained, but good killin' grounds, nonetheless.
 
2010-08-18 07:51:43 PM
Crosshair: At least that will result in a net improvement for the society.

Perhaps they should go to Code of Hammurabi building codes. That would tighten things up.

One question I have is is this shoddy construction a case of fraud, saying the building is built to code when it isn't, or is it a case of "We're poor and this is all we can afford."


It's fraud, building on the cheap without any regulation whatsoever, no market controls, no legal recourse for victims, shoddy materials, poor training for construction crews, weak governmental oversight, need for speed of construction over quality of workmanship...mix and match as needed.

For instance, in America, we have all these problems (who doesn't?), but they tend to counterbalance each other. A contractor who greases too many palms to build too cheaply has too many buildings that fall down; he gets sued out the ass, or investigated by some of his more powerful tenants; this tends to keep builders fairly honest. Same way, build too fast to get the job done on time/under budget and cut too many corners: Building falls down, lawsuits hammer your insurance company, rates go up: Industry encourages members not to cut too many corners to keep the insurance premiums for everyone low.

These brakes and balances don't exist in China, by and large. Regulatory mechanisms don't exist, civil courts either aren't available or don't function like ours, since the Communist government runs everything, Chinese citizens can't sue them like US citizens can sue our government; and there's no way to vote in laws to improve the situation.

The only ones who can change things are the government. So we'll see how that goes.
 
2010-08-18 07:52:06 PM
CitizenTed: Hmmm. Maybe this is why most American municipalities have strict building codes, all of which are universally reviled by developers as "socialist impediments to the free market."

/CATO and the Libertarians can go blow themselves.


Yes and that damnable FDA getting in the way of honest entrepreneurs who just want to sell their medicines, food, and beverages without all that undue government interference.
 
2010-08-18 07:55:18 PM
anthonix: Crosshair:

Perhaps they should go to Code of Hammurabi building codes. That would tighten things up."

Loves me some Ancient Babylonian building reference!


What's got two thumbs and is a Babylonian criminal?

This g--- OH SHIAT
 
2010-08-18 07:57:57 PM
I like the non-flash version better.
 
2010-08-18 08:01:05 PM
give me doughnuts: They'd better start with the Three Gorges Dam. When that building-inspector's nightmare comes crumbling down it will kill hundreds of thousands.

Perhaps that's what it's designed to do.
 
2010-08-18 08:03:08 PM
Hopefully they'll declare war on injection-molded plastic garbage.
 
2010-08-18 08:08:03 PM
Slab_Squatthrust: CitizenTed: Hmmm. Maybe this is why most American municipalities have strict building codes, all of which are universally reviled by developers as "socialist impediments to the free market."

/CATO and the Libertarians can go blow themselves.

Actually, developers, builders, and other well-connected business interests love regulations and codes because they act as a barrier to market entry for smaller competitors.

Nice try, though.


Actually, developers, builders and other well-connected business interests despise all regulations that protect consumers and cost them money. Jesus Christ, man: do you have a BIA in your area? Go and chat with them about building regs.
 
2010-08-18 08:09:40 PM
i.imgur.com

Looks legit to me.
 
2010-08-18 08:11:55 PM
China's (home) construction problem goes something like this...

1) The local government takes the land from existing owners at low rates.
2) The govt officials sell the right to develop on that land to their friends/family at low rates.
3) The developer gives a kickback to the govt officials.
4) The developer then uses low quality materials and haphazard method to build the site.
5) No oversight is done by the government, because the developer is a friend/family of someone in the government.
6) Chinese people put great emphasis on owning a home, so they pay the outrageous prices for the poorly constructed homes.

Rinse and repeat.

/yes, I do live in China
 
2010-08-18 08:14:22 PM
I don't know why people are so against the war on drugs, it only costs us $600.

... every single second.

Read more.
 
2010-08-18 08:15:05 PM
Cowboys!
 
2010-08-18 08:26:37 PM
CitizenTed: Slab_Squatthrust: CitizenTed: Hmmm. Maybe this is why most American municipalities have strict building codes, all of which are universally reviled by developers as "socialist impediments to the free market."

/CATO and the Libertarians can go blow themselves.

Actually, developers, builders, and other well-connected business interests love regulations and codes because they act as a barrier to market entry for smaller competitors.

Nice try, though.

Actually, developers, builders and other well-connected business interests despise all regulations that protect consumers and cost them money. Jesus Christ, man: do you have a BIA in your area? Go and chat with them about building regs.


My friends and I actually like most of them. It simplifies our estimation process. Also, it pushes the prices up (Since we make our money by tacking a premium onto our costs, it passes through to the consumer.)

Really, the only codes that we gripe about are commercial fire codes and ADA regs.

Commercial fire codes are the epitome of ridiculous. ADA regs are 70% BS and only serve to drive up the cost of construction.

/Oh yeah, new efficiency regs are creating black markets that are difficult to navigate.
 
2010-08-18 08:27:18 PM
as well as America's war on drugs Singapore's war on drugs
 
2010-08-18 08:27:28 PM
magores: China's (home) construction problem goes something like this...

1) The local government takes the land from existing owners at low rates.
2) The govt officials sell the right to develop on that land to their friends/family at low rates.
3) The developer gives a kickback to the govt officials.
4) The developer then uses low quality materials and haphazard method to build the site.
5) No oversight is done by the government, because the developer is a friend/family of someone in the government.
6) Chinese people put great emphasis on owning a home, so they pay the outrageous prices for the poorly constructed homes.

Rinse and repeat.

/yes, I do live in China


so its just like Jersey?
 
2010-08-18 08:29:58 PM
hopefully these (new window) aren't also poorly constructed.

// tl;dr myself, but it has a picture
 
2010-08-18 08:30:59 PM
That's why anything made in America is so popular in China. Quality construction.

/Buick sells more cars in China than the U.S.
 
2010-08-18 08:36:17 PM
Building codes keep shiat from falling/burning down. They save society money as a whole since some builders are just slightly less honest than the neighborhood crack/meth addict. It is good to see the Chinese government focusing on this rather then going after political activists as much.

\lives in an area with strict building codes
\\things don't fall down here or catch fire very much
 
2010-08-18 08:37:41 PM
So basically China needs Jesus. He did a great job on my drywall.
 
2010-08-18 08:43:23 PM
hey now... the war on drugs has been a highly successful socialist jobs program. Just sayin... like uhhhh
 
2010-08-18 08:43:32 PM
texastag: That's why anything made in America is so popular in China. Quality construction.

/Buick sells more cars in China than the U.S.


I'm pretty sure they also build them there for the local market.
 
2010-08-18 08:46:31 PM
Wait till some of these Mexican built building here in good ole USA start falling down. More work for me, and yea thats what I fix now. Sloppy and shoddy Mexican built crap. You get what you pay for, then you call someone to fix it.
 
2010-08-18 08:48:03 PM
texastag: That's why anything made in America is so popular in China. Quality construction.

/Buick sells more cars in China than the U.S.


Well its too hard to pronounce Chevrolet with Mandarin accent.
 
2010-08-18 08:49:39 PM
adrienne barbeaubot: hopefully these (new window) aren't also poorly constructed.

// tl;dr myself, but it has a picture



www.ciop.org
 
2010-08-18 08:54:47 PM
HA! Those buck-toothed goldfish tenders?!
 
2010-08-18 08:55:40 PM
Rozinante: texastag: That's why anything made in America is so popular in China. Quality construction.

/Buick sells more cars in China than the U.S.

I'm pretty sure they also build them there for the local market.


Only in terms of features. And by which, Chinese Buicks are actually ridiculously nice. Gearheads have said time and time again, "If they'd offer that in the US I'd actually buy a Buick".

Granted, US Buicks aren't exactly junk. They don't cater to the same type of buyer that purchases german luxury sedans, but they're actually very well built and have had some of the highest satisfaction ratings for 10 or 15 years. Buick in the US caters more to what a Lexus ES buyer wants. Not my cup of tea, but to say it's a bad car would to be completely wrong. They're the best in their segment, and they sell in absurd numbers.
 
2010-08-18 08:59:09 PM
newfunny.com
\approves of China's intent
 
2010-08-18 09:03:31 PM
I remember one time walking around my mall and they had a DARE program table and tent, and I think some officers or DEA agents or cadets were handing out pamphlets. They offered me one which I kindly declined. I said to them that their on the losing side of the war, and I was gonna explain the economics of things, but the instant I said that, they're face turned different. So I walked away. And I was only trying to have a open discussion.

That being said, my mom is a NAZI when it comes to buying any food products made in china. We have a no MADE in China policy when it comes to food, same with food products made in Vietnam. As far as hardware and other stuff, we try to stay away from it too, but it seems pretty difficult nowadays.
 
2010-08-18 09:06:02 PM
Gyrfalcon: Crosshair: At least that will result in a net improvement for the society.

Perhaps they should go to Code of Hammurabi building codes. That would tighten things up.

One question I have is is this shoddy construction a case of fraud, saying the building is built to code when it isn't, or is it a case of "We're poor and this is all we can afford."

It's fraud, building on the cheap without any regulation whatsoever, no market controls, no legal recourse for victims, shoddy materials, poor training for construction crews, weak governmental oversight, need for speed of construction over quality of workmanship...mix and match as needed.

For instance, in America, we have all these problems (who doesn't?), but they tend to counterbalance each other. A contractor who greases too many palms to build too cheaply has too many buildings that fall down; he gets sued out the ass, or investigated by some of his more powerful tenants; this tends to keep builders fairly honest. Same way, build too fast to get the job done on time/under budget and cut too many corners: Building falls down, lawsuits hammer your insurance company, rates go up: Industry encourages members not to cut too many corners to keep the insurance premiums for everyone low.

These brakes and balances don't exist in China, by and large. Regulatory mechanisms don't exist, civil courts either aren't available or don't function like ours, since the Communist government runs everything, Chinese citizens can't sue them like US citizens can sue our government; and there's no way to vote in laws to improve the situation.

The only ones who can change things are the government. So we'll see how that goes.


Doggone it, here I was going to make an Andrew Ryan quote and you go and make an insightful post.
 
2010-08-18 09:08:30 PM
magores: China's (home) construction problem goes something like this...

1) The local government takes the land from existing owners at low rates.
2) The govt officials sell the right to develop on that land to their friends/family at low rates.
3) The developer gives a kickback to the govt officials.
4) The developer then uses low quality materials and haphazard method to build the site.
5) No oversight is done by the government, because the developer is a friend/family of someone in the government.
6) Chinese people put great emphasis on owning a home, so they pay the outrageous prices for the poorly constructed homes.

Rinse and repeat.

/yes, I do live in China


This is why it's good for the government and businesses to be separated.
 
2010-08-18 09:10:23 PM
Crosshair: At least that will result in a net improvement for the society.

Perhaps they should go to Code of Hammurabi building codes. That would tighten things up.

One question I have is is this shoddy construction a case of fraud, saying the building is built to code when it isn't, or is it a case of "We're poor and this is all we can afford."


There's a lot of old unreinforced masonry garbage that has been being torn down for some time now. There is also the problem that corruption is rampant in their society--it's cheaper to bribe someone than to do it right.
 
2010-08-18 09:17:04 PM
Crosshair: Perhaps they should go to Code of Hammurabi building codes. That would tighten things up.

The Code of Hammurabi?

www.atariarchives.org
 
2010-08-18 09:21:59 PM
FTFA

img19.imageshack.us


(...) that same year, a construction team in Nanjing were criticized for repairing a cracked, year-old bridge with glue. The repairs had to be redone (...)


I think I'm well on my way to hell for lol'ing at that.

But seriously, WTF??
 
2010-08-18 09:32:29 PM
So they're a second world country now?
 
2010-08-18 09:33:18 PM
A-Rth-Urp-Hil-Ipdenu: FTFA

(...) that same year, a construction team in Nanjing were criticized for repairing a cracked, year-old bridge with glue. The repairs had to be redone (...)

I think I'm well on my way to hell for lol'ing at that.

But seriously, WTF??


I used to work in a hardware store. That sort of thing does not surprise me at all. I used to get people in there all the time that would talk about their projects as I showed them where that materials they asked for were. Explaining that some thing won't do what they thought it would was an every day thing. Ignorance was usually the cause rather than stupidity.

\what was really scary was having a contractor come in and do it
\\no, you can not hold back flood water with a retaining wall. You need a levy.
\\\2X4's are not strong enough to use a joists.
 
2010-08-18 09:49:07 PM
gozar_the_destroyer: A-Rth-Urp-Hil-Ipdenu: FTFA

(...) that same year, a construction team in Nanjing were criticized for repairing a cracked, year-old bridge with glue. The repairs had to be redone (...)

I think I'm well on my way to hell for lol'ing at that.

But seriously, WTF??

I used to work in a hardware store. That sort of thing does not surprise me at all. I used to get people in there all the time that would talk about their projects as I showed them where that materials they asked for were. Explaining that some thing won't do what they thought it would was an every day thing. Ignorance was usually the cause rather than stupidity.

\what was really scary was having a contractor come in and do it
\\no, you can not hold back flood water with a retaining wall. You need a levy.
\\\2X4's are not strong enough to use a joists.



I know exactly what you are talking about. Its scary sometimes.
 
2010-08-18 09:57:55 PM
 
2010-08-18 10:24:18 PM
surferjerry.com
surferjerry.com

You don't get better than this.

Shanghai, China: 13-story modern condo spontaneously falls over at the end of construction.

Falls over. Not as in "collapse". Tipped and fell over. Not in response to a natural disaster. Not due to age and poor maintenance. Just... whomp!

surferjerry.comsurferjerry.com

And, hey- it's part of a complex, with apparently identical construction.

Looks like they didn't sink the piers in very deep at all, or they've got no steel in them and just broke off short.

I kinda got a kick out of the fact that the building doesn't seem to have disintegrated. It may have fallen slowly and impacted on soft earth, I don't know. But, it MIGHT have been survivable if people were living in it (it was not yet occupied, and one worker was killed). Just the idea of being on the 10th floor and slowly having the room rotate, THUD! and hey... there's ground outside my window holy crap!
 
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