but if the Martha Stewart, Blagoavich and another case in Kentucky has taught us anything: It is a fedral offense to lie to the FBI.

Talking to cops is bad, but you may want to keep things civil. Someone identified themselves as FBI, STFU.

BigNumber12: Theaetetus: BigNumber12: IXI Jim IXI: BigNumber12: And soldiers and veterans are free to beat the piss out of the guy when they catch him lying

Then they can see how far Don't Ask, Don't Tell gets them in jail.

I would look the other way, and I don't think I'm alone.

Excellent demonstration of the downside of jury nullification there - lynch mobs and vigilante "justice".

When dealing with humans, it's advisable to realize that human nature will frequently come into play. Stick your head in the sand all you want, pretend we're more enlightened than this sort of thing, but the simple fact of the matter is that actions can generate many kinds of consequences, and natural consequences are just as real as legal ones. Everyone has a breaking point, something that will push them over the edge into irrational reaction. And pissing a soldier off is more likely than average to earn you a facefull of knuckles.

Sure, and that will earn them a room with bars on the windows. Why do you keep talking about one person facing consequences while simultaneously dodging the other person facing consequences and insisting that you'd look the other way? It seems like you only like some consequences, and not others, and while that's natural human nature, it's also blatant hypocrisy.

Fark_Guy_Rob: EdNortonsTwin: dragonchild: Diogenes: I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but can't we assume that that's the intention? Why else would you lie if not for some sort of gain, monetary or otherwise?

OK, I'll bite. Because civics either matters or it doesn't. I think I'm the only person left in this farking country who looks at legislation -- from universal healthcare to the Drug War to terrorism to abortion -- from the POV of scope of power as opposed to what I like.

No one likes liars. Even liars don't like liars; they like "suckers". Liars are bad. Lying, while sometimes necessary, is ideally about as pleasant as a eating dog shiat. The reason why lying is protected by the First Amendment is because the amount of power the government would need to assert to enforce such a law is unacceptably dangerous. If this law was upheld, hell, Halloween would become illegal. At best, it'd overload the already-overloaded legal system with petty charges; it's just not feasible legislation. Fraud has a higher standard where the plaintiff must demonstrate physical loss; it is the ability to demonstrate a loss that allows the government to decide on these cases without being granted the power to randomly throw people in jail. If you farked someone because they lied and regret it, don't get the government involved -- suck it up.

I hate liars, but some things just shouldn't be put into law because they can't be enforced with power short of full-blown tyranny. Disturbingly, an awful lot of wedge issues fall into this category, making me inherently suspicious of anyone who tries to legislate an action that doesn't harm anything that breathes air.

Not all exceptions to a rule are bad. This can be enforced without arresting kids in spiderman outfits as a result.

Why on Earth would you select this one tiny subset of things people can lie about?

Because I quoted it right out of another post I was addressing. Quite the reach, eh?

TheGogmagog: but if the Martha Stewart, Blagoavich and another case in Kentucky has taught us anything: It is a fedral offense to lie to the FBI.

Talking to cops is bad, but you may want to keep things civil. Someone identified themselves as FBI, STFU.

You could really piss them off by answering every question with a question. But yeah, it's best to just shut up.

Long Haired FM Type: Why do I get the nagging hunch that if I were to tag along on one of those super cool hiking trips of yours that sooner or later the conversation would swing around to "those lying bastards on Fox News"?

Congratulations, you've now TWICE mentioned The News Station Which Shall Not Be named in a thread about a "random bullshiat story".

I'll have grandma send you some brownies.

MacGabhain: Yes, that's why they're called "privileges", not "rights". I'm thinking most of us learned that in drivers' ed.

So you get some sort of super cool driver's license when you get a military award? Sweet.

I'm surprised it took this long to overturn this law. It blatantly violated the first amendment.

roughridersfan: I wish FLYNAVY was here to set us straight.

Ha, hadn't read that guy's name in a while...

Theaetetus: BigNumber12: IXI Jim IXI: BigNumber12: And soldiers and veterans are free to beat the piss out of the guy when they catch him lying

Then they can see how far Don't Ask, Don't Tell gets them in jail.

I would look the other way, and I don't think I'm alone.

Excellent demonstration of the downside of jury nullification there - lynch mobs and vigilante "justice".

I find I have to agree, so we make it legal. Medal of Honour recipients already get a number of rewards from a grateful nation - I say we ensconce it in law that if you are the recipient of such a medal - and find someone claiming to have it that doesn't - you get a free pass to kick his ass from here to wherever you earned that medal (Guadal canal, Normandy, Middle East, wherever)

How about if you lie about military service, the government assumes that means you're volunteering for combat duty and ships you out on the next transport to an active war zone? You obviously WANT to get a Medal of Honor, who are we to stand in your way. To help make you feel special, we will even give you your own badge so everyone knows that you are there to earn your medals. It will be a series of white and red circles nested inside each other sewn to the seat of your pants.

Geotpf: I'm surprised it took this long to overturn this law. It blatantly violated the first amendment.

I suppose as long as recruiters are allowed to lie...well, hell!

Grass Hopper: I say we ensconce it in law that if you are the recipient of such a medal - and find someone claiming to have it that doesn't - you get a free pass to kick his ass from here to wherever you earned that medal (Guadal canal, Normandy, Middle East, wherever)

Because THAT wouldn't be violating free speech or anything...

Grass Hopper: Theaetetus: BigNumber12: IXI Jim IXI: BigNumber12: And soldiers and veterans are free to beat the piss out of the guy when they catch him lying

Then they can see how far Don't Ask, Don't Tell gets them in jail.

I would look the other way, and I don't think I'm alone.

Excellent demonstration of the downside of jury nullification there - lynch mobs and vigilante "justice".

I find I have to agree, so we make it legal. Medal of Honour recipients already get a number of rewards from a grateful nation - I say we ensconce it in law that if you are the recipient of such a medal - and find someone claiming to have it that doesn't - you get a free pass to kick his ass from here to wherever you earned that medal (Guadal canal, Normandy, Middle East, wherever)

You want the government to pass a law levying physical punishment for people who tell lies? Is there a title before your name, such as "Imam"? 'Cause that's some serious Sharia shiat right there, so perhaps it's a bit unsurprising that you'd invoke the Middle East as one of the locations...

RussianPooper: Kyoki: A lot of these guys are using these claims of awards to get jobs, further awards and ceremony and other items/honorariums for personal benefit. It is fraud and worst of all, it allows people to claim something that's not theirs, money, work, honor, whatever. So it's theft to boot. Not all thievery is tangible.

Fraud is already against the law, this law goes beyond that. Do you really want government in the business of prosecuting people for "Theft of honor"?

YES Not yours if you didn't earn it. If you claim you earned a medal and you didn't, you are either truly despicable with a serious lack decency or in major need of mental help.

Grass Hopper: Theaetetus: BigNumber12: IXI Jim IXI: BigNumber12: And soldiers and veterans are free to beat the piss out of the guy when they catch him lying

Then they can see how far Don't Ask, Don't Tell gets them in jail.

I would look the other way, and I don't think I'm alone.

Excellent demonstration of the downside of jury nullification there - lynch mobs and vigilante "justice".

I find I have to agree, so we make it legal. Medal of Honour recipients already get a number of rewards from a grateful nation - I say we ensconce it in law that if you are the recipient of such a medal - and find someone claiming to have it that doesn't - you get a free pass to kick his ass from here to wherever you earned that medal (Guadal canal, Normandy, Middle East, wherever)


Kind of like if you've walked on the moon, you get a free facepunch to hoaxer? (new window)

Stoj: Can I lie to the FBI now about where I was at 4:30PM on June 28, 2003?

Well, if Glenn Beck can lie about raping and murdering a young girl in 1990...

He hasn't *lied* about it. He just hasn't addressed and denied the allegation. Now, I'm not going to say he DID do such a thing, but if he didn't then why doesn't he deny it? It makes it seem like he has something to hide. :-/

OH, NOW I GET IT...thats why he's so religousy...he thinks he's going to be forgiven.

P.S.
to all you freakin cross around the neck douche bags who are complete scum(you know who you are), you will not be forgiven.

Beeblebrox
"I'd like this lying sack of shiat and the guy below to have a private meeting together..."


You mean Gunnery Sgt Ermey who was not a Gunnery Sergeant[though he played one on TV].

That "honorary" promotion to E-7 after he had retired years earlier doesn't count. And then there is the DI ribbon awarded years after he retired.

Very good Marine but for years...not exactly what he said he was.

pxsteel: RussianPooper: Kyoki: A lot of these guys are using these claims of awards to get jobs, further awards and ceremony and other items/honorariums for personal benefit. It is fraud and worst of all, it allows people to claim something that's not theirs, money, work, honor, whatever. So it's theft to boot. Not all thievery is tangible.

Fraud is already against the law, this law goes beyond that. Do you really want government in the business of prosecuting people for "Theft of honor"?

YES Not yours if you didn't earn it. If you claim you earned a medal and you didn't, you are either truly despicable with a serious lack decency or in major need of mental help.

So you want the government criminally prosecuting people for "lacking decency" or "needing mental help"?
Cripes. What the fark happened to this country?

I played the Beta and thought that the hit detection was horrible and it wasn't very intuitive gameplay. I'll just stick with other first person shooters and let you have Medal of Honor.

mcbearbryant: Very good Marine but for years...not exactly what he said he was.

Wait, really?

Hell...it's like finding out there's no Santa.

Gheezuz you guys, expections can be made. Threatening the POTUS, fire in a theatre, causing civil disturbances over the radio. Why not service metals? Again, probably pressure relating to the issue of recruiter honesty, and the lack there of. Lying, exceptions must be made. Lord knows the military lies as much as they tell the truth.

Ghastly: Lying sacks of shiat like this guy piss me off. As a former Navy SEAL who served with the British SAS it sickens me. It cheapens the 3 Medals of Honour I earned by killing terrorists with my bare hands and the 8 Bronze Stars and 5 Victoria Crosses I got for protecting orphans from Hitler's clones. This activist judge may be letting this guy off easy but he's in for a real world of hurt now. I'm a 12th level Dark Ninja and an expert computer hacker. I've already got this guy's address by backtracking the article. He may be safe from the government but he's not safe from me and my AK-M16-47 Katana launcher.

Personally, I would like pics of "ghastley" in uniform and to hear the stories.

Probably posted at nifty org.

/sticks out tongue and makes whoohoo noise.


Personal note: I've never worn the uniform.

I am OK with this ruling. The Marine in me would love to be able to stop people from falsely advertising their military service, yet the libertarian in me loves the First Amendment basis for the decision more.

Lying should not be against the law. Fraud is already illegal, how you conduct that fraud is largely irrelevant. We can't make it illegal to be a douchebag.

/highest award is an Air Medal
//have lied to girls in bars to get laid, but only about NOT being in the military.

Dissenting Judge Jay Bybee said the Constitution does not protect knowingly false speech.

Like... saying the Constitution doesn't protect knowingly false speech?

EdNortonsTwin: Threatening the POTUS, fire in a theatre, causing civil disturbances over the radio. Why not service metals?

"There's a fire in the theater! Everyone RUN!"
"Hey, I've got a Purple Heart. Can you help me with my blue balls?"

Dunno...they don't seem equivalent.

What's the difference between some crackhead panhandler claiming he fought in the last war and a sherry-swilling yacht monkey claiming he was the crackhead's commanding officer?

Coelacanth: What's the difference between some crackhead panhandler claiming he fought in the last war and a sherry-swilling yacht monkey claiming he was the crackhead's commanding officer?

Are you suggesting there is some sort of difference?

mcbearbryant: Beeblebrox
"I'd like this lying sack of shiat and the guy below to have a private meeting together..."


You mean Gunnery Sgt Ermey who was not a Gunnery Sergeant[though he played one on TV].

That "honorary" promotion to E-7 after he had retired years earlier doesn't count. And then there is the DI ribbon awarded years after he retired.

Very good Marine but for years...not exactly what he said he was.



j/k :^)

As a heads-up... if someone TELLS you they have the MoH... odds are they are lying about it.

Those who have earned it generally don't talk about it.
There are only 87 guys walking around alive that have earned it.
Their average age is 75...

/They can, however, usually produce a pic of them receiving it from the President...

I guess that is the right call.

/I only lie to women about when I have to be at the gym
//really 30 mins.

dragonchild: thinks_on_feet: He also didn't speak Spanish... said it was unimportant to his covert work.

Uh, Brazilians speak Portugese, so he would've been right on that account.

Right, true, but he said he operated in Central and South America... the "swimming the Amazon" story was his only reference to Brazil.

EdNortonsTwin: Not all exceptions to a rule are bad. This can be enforced without arresting kids in spiderman outfits as a result.

Problem is when some dickhead with a sub-50 approval rating and a moral wedge issue in his back pocket uses this thing called "precedent" (whereby a court rules a law similar in scope constitutional) to fight for his own "exception". Shiat flows sideways as easily as it does downhill. The "slippery slope" argument is perfectly valid when gauging the scope of the government's power.

These things are ideally nipped in the bud when the first bullshiat law is struck down on the grounds that it would allow the government to overstep its authority. The Drug War is a notorious failure of the USSC to uphold the 4th Amendment, and now a store owner can be jailed for selling sandwich bags or carrying cash.

Another similar example is the bullshiat Arizona law. Let's acknowledge that immigration is indeed a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Fine. But then say you ARE an American citizen who happens to have brown skin, and you go jogging without your wallet because, well, why the fark would you carry it around when you're just doing a few laps. You could wind up being shipped to Mexico by a racist cop because you can't prove you legally belong in the country. I'm white. I forget my wallet, I'm out a few dollars cash and gotta cancel my credit card and some other red tape crap. If I'm brown and live in Arizona, losing my wallet (or, god forbid, getting mugged) could get me in all kinds of farked up in blatant violation of the Bill of Rights. THAT is why the law is unconstitutional, not because of some bullshiat strawman ideology about liberals hating America.

Theaetetus: You want the government to pass a law levying physical punishment for people who tell lies?

If we're going to press forward with the idea that the only acceptable response to heinously despicable free speech is more free speech, then I'd like it to be a condition of an FCC license to announce the name, picture (if available) and nature of the falsely claimed honor as a public service message. It is surely in the public interest that nobody buy this kind of claim.

Sorta like this guy, which was spotted again at an Anchorage, AK gun show in early August trotting out his "I'm a special forces captain with two stars on my CIB" line. A real Army NCO figured this guy out real quick and verbally and publicly tore a new hole in this lard bucket's 300lb arse.

OscarTamerz: thinks_on_feet:
I live near a guy who never claimed to be a medalist, but he did claim to be a covert operator, codename "Le Tigre," and said he had numerous missions in Central and South America, and once swam across the Amazon to escape drug dealers while in Brazil.

My friend, who was born in Brazil, has family in Brazil, but speaks perfect English, asked him where in Brazil (which State) when he swam the river, and he couldn't remember. She gave him three fake State names and he picked the middle one. Yeah, that's it.

He also didn't speak Spanish... said it was unimportant to his covert work.

As with this guy, military liars aren't that hard to spot once you ask a few pertinent questions.

Did your native born Brazilian girl friend speak Spanish? And just to sink that hook into my gullet right up to the last barb wouldn't it be El Tigre en espagnol or O Tigre when he was operating in Brazil where they speak farking Portuguese you dumbshiat? Good troll though.

She teaches English as a second language and Spanish in high school... and I think you missed the intent of the story and for whatever reason is a troll.

You should pay closer attention, maybe...

Lando Lincoln: Long Haired FM Type: "Want to poke me in the no-go later?"

Wow. Gay jokes? You really are a classic conservative.

I'm gay.

You got a problem with that?

Homophobic bigot. Go watch Fox News.

/Approves

We shouldn't have to legislate honor, nor outlaw "dishonor". It flows naturally from respecting freedom of speech. Even speech that you don't agree with.

Ghastly: Lying sacks of shiat like this guy piss me off. As a former Navy SEAL who served with the British SAS it sickens me. It cheapens the 3 Medals of Honour I earned by killing terrorists with my bare hands and the 8 Bronze Stars and 5 Victoria Crosses I got for protecting orphans from Hitler's clones. This activist judge may be letting this guy off easy but he's in for a real world of hurt now. I'm a 12th level Dark Ninja and an expert computer hacker. I've already got this guy's address by backtracking the article. He may be safe from the government but he's not safe from me and my AK-M16-47 Katana launcher.

That's complete and utter horseshiat. Everybody knows that the model with the katana launcher is the -52.

Frakking liar.

OregonVet: Alvarez, elected in 2006 to the Three Valley Water District board in Pomona (Los Angeles County), introduced himself at a public meeting in July 2007 as a retired Marine who was awarded the Medal of Honor two decades before.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/17/BA541EVG92.DTL&aaa#i xzz0wybZIIEc

I agree with the ruling, however, that^ does seem borderline fraud to me considering he no doubt was intending to throw that out there with intent to influence others. But yah, merely speaking the words shouldn't be illegal. Wearing the medal, now that would be another story.

/is proud of the ones I earned
//is incensed by PX Rangers

Your medals mean absolutely dick in the civilian world. Saying, wearing, whatever means nothing outside of a military base or combat zone.

plausdeny: Theaetetus: You want the government to pass a law levying physical punishment for people who tell lies?

If we're going to press forward with the idea that the only acceptable response to heinously despicable free speech is more free speech, then I'd like it to be a condition of an FCC license to announce the name, picture (if available) and nature of the falsely claimed honor as a public service message. It is surely in the public interest that nobody buy this kind of claim.

Wait, so in exchange for the government not criminalizing speech, you want to force other private citizens to speak?
God damn, what the fark is wrong with you? Do you not understand the concept of the Constitution, or do you just hate it?

Diogenes: I don't know if that was the right decision or not. But I'm hesitant to say that allowing fraud is a strong victory for the First Amendment.

That's not what the case said. All fraud involves a lie, but not all lies are fraud. Fraud is (boiled down) an intentional lie about a material fact that induces someone else to act. The court said that the wearing of medals in this particular case were merely an intentional lie. It wasn't an intentional lie about a material fact that induced someone else to act.

So under the court's reasoning, wearing a medal in a social setting is an intentional lie, but it's not fraud, because you're not using the lie to induce someone else to do something. Wearing a medal in a business setting as a way to convince people to hire you/invest with you/do business with you would be fraud, and presumably wouldn't be protected (the court didn't reach that issue).

NightOwl2255: After the bridge collapse in I-40 here in Oklahoma, one of the first people on the scene was some guy that claimed he was military of some sort. Even took some charge of the rescue operation. AFAIK he got some prison time. Wonder how this ruling will affect his case.

Not at all. From here:
On Tuesday, May 28th, in Van Buren, Ark., the con-man "captain" showed up at a local motel and said he'd been helping with the bridge disaster. He said he needed eight rooms for the night for himself and other workers. He stayed in one of the rooms and put "Do Not Disturb" signs on the others, none of which were ever occupied. The following morning, Clark skipped town owing a $900 bill.

By Wednesday, Clark was in Searcy, Ark., some 230 miles from the bridge disaster scene. Still wearing his "Green Beret" and Army fatigues, he walked into the Truman Baker Dodge dealership and talked the owners into letting him "borrow" the keys to a 1997 red Dodge pickup. He said he needed the vehicle to transport supplies to the rescue workers in Oklahoma.

That was the last they saw of him. Or the truck.

This ruling doesn't decriminalize fraud.