MSFT - Funny how they didn't list alts or trolls. I'm pretty sure those would be lower than prostitutes.

At least, in my book.


lower than necrophiliacs... bestial necrophiliacs.

ignite ice: austin_millbarge: An atheist is someone who denies the existence of God. You can't be a non-Christian and not be an atheist. The two terms co-exist. Someone who denies the existence of God is not a Christian and is therefore an atheist.

1) BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
2) notsureifserious.jpg
3) Does anyone have the Fark Athiest Evolution Map?

First an 'Athiest' was someone who didn't believe in any sort of deity, then it was someone who believed in the belief that there is no god. NOW it's anyone who doesn't believe in the christian god (did I miss any - oh yeah, the belief in science as a religion)?

If you're trolling, 10/10 I haven't had a laugh that good for ages.

I think i'm just going to start a new movement called 'null' - I'm not a christian, i'm not an athiest, i'm not a nonchristian, not a muslim, not a farking zero length string, i'm just null as far as religion is concerned.

MSFT: Funny how they didn't list alts or trolls. I'm pretty sure those would be lower than prostitutes.

At least, in my book.

This. Lots of both in this thread.

At least prostitutes provide a useful service.

Lexx: Occam's Penis Pump: muck4doo: Ringshadow: ignite ice: But they wouldn't -- and that's the difference between atheists and Christians: one has morals, the other lacks them.

As an apatheist with morals, I invite you to kiss my grits.

Look at his profile.

So what? The troll is still farking boring. He's an immature little pussy incapable of real thought.

Immature little pussies are still better than idiots with only surface-level reading comprehension.

Better in what way? Just plain "better"?

I'll bet this chump is sitting in front of his computer right now, soiled tighty whiteys around his ankles, tenderly squeezing his scrotum each time someone posts a response to his drivel. This whole trolling thing stimulates him sexually, I suppose.

mechafenris: I don't see a problem with a creator who uses the laws of the universe to his own ends. It's up to each one of us to choose where we stand. That's all we can do. Well, that and enjoy yourself, and try to make the world a better place than you found it. That is the essence of God.

This is what trips up a lot of atheists, because they don't see Christianity as being compatible with evolution. Atheists tend to put all Christians into one category: those who believe in evolution and those who believe in a literal seven day creation. They relentlessly judge Christians for this even though they don't know the first thing about their individual convictions and beliefs. Not every Christian is so out of the scientific loop that they don't know about micro and macro evolution. But yeah, we can't know if God is there. That's why it's called faith though. If God gave you ultimate evidence of his existence, there would be no walk of faith, and that's what Jesus is all about: following him to the ends of the earth.

Zamboro: Second Try: "I say we kill all theists. Farking useless sheeple, can't even think for themselves. Round them up and burn them at stake, that shall cleanse the world."

Over my cold, dead body. This movement has no need of genociders. Acknowledge the validity of secular ethics as it applies to the treatment of potentially hostile opponents; under no circumstances is extermination an acceptable recourse.

Agreed. Resorting to violence is never an acceptable solution to social instability. And we certainly don't need to be using techniques we condemn (especially when used by religions and religious organizations) to affect religions and religious organizations.

Martian_Astronomer: 'Tis a lovely sentiment, and I think that outlook would fix a lot of the inconsistencies I see in Christianity, but that's a pretty dubious interpretation of the story....

I see what you mean, I'll try to elaborate on my thoughts. (Disclaimer, I'm not really up on my stuff.)

The specific passage which you bolded is specifying one of the differences between the Athenian traditions and Christianity, that of idol worship. Christians are specifically called not to make idols of worship because Jesus represents a fundamentally different belief. In the old testament people were commanded not to make idols to God (Yahweh God, that is). However, they did anyway and Paul is telling the people that they are forgiven for this because they had nothing better. Jesus represents a fundamental shift from the old testament because in the OT the people had nothing but a book of laws to guide them. After the first Pentecost all believers everywhere had the Holy Spirit to guide them and to be with them at all times. The Holy Spirit is far better than any idol could ever be, and thus Christians are commanded not to make idols so that they develop their relationship with Jesus more strongly.

I don't think that he passage you cite implies that Christians should not welcome people of other faiths with open arms, I think it's just Paul telling the people of Athens not to make idols of Jesus. (It's the difference between going to church on Sunday to worship Jesus vs. going to church to worship the cross).

That said, I think it should be clear that Christianity is fundamentally incompatible with other belief systems which do not espouse the belief that Jesus is the one and only way. However, we are specifically called not to judge those other people.

Fubini: Satan_Himself: Are you a hypocrite or a nonchristian?

Actually, Christians are specifically commanded to rebuke each other (Luke 17:3-4) but not others. In following Christ you might be falling short in some area, sometimes without even knowing it. Christ commands us to form communities with each other in part so we can support each other when the right thing to do seems difficult.

Therefore, if you claim that you are a Christian then you proclaim that you hold yourself to a Christian standard, one tenet of which is that we should not judge. If you proclaim to be Christian yet condemn (gays, commies, whatever) others then you are opening yourself to rebuke from the Christian community.

Or, progressively past this bullcrap, you could think for yourself.

/Just sayin'.
//Just exactly how are you receiving commands from this "Christ" dude?

technicolor-misfit: In a fairly reasonable environment, a centrist position will likely be "moderate." It's incorrect to conclude it always will, or that it is ideal.

In Nazi Germany, a centrist position would have been to simply thin the numbers of Jews, or to imprison them rather than exterminating them.

In the civil rights struggle, a compromise would have been to increase funding for black schools or to require restaurants to have a black section.

Neither of these positions is moderate or laudable.

Similarly, a civil unions solution might be acceptable if the state gets out of the marrying business altogether and issues civil unions to all... IF such a solution weren't a nuclear option favored by opponents of gay marriage in the event that it looks like they're going to lose.

The only time it ever seems amenable to them is when it's a last ditch effort to prevent the homos from getting their dirty hands on "real marriage."

In that regard, it always has the stench of a shiat sandwich.

Idealists are always disgusted by moderates to one degree or another. Afterall, when you have The Truth on your side, and damn-it you know you are right and why can't everyone else just see that, any compromise with your position is a shiat sandwich.

In that degree, you are no different from a dyed in the wool social conservative who was for Prop 8. You both think you are morally correct, and have Truth on your side, and to compromise your position is just an argument about how many bites of a shiat sandwich you are willing to take.

Myself, I'm a big fan of compromise and poitical moderation. It's what makes a peaceful democracy, and graceful social change-- although I agree it slows the progress towards that which those of you know is Right (whatever that is).

//By the way, nice Godwin.

ignite ice: This is what trips up a lot of atheists, because they don't see Christianity as being compatible with evolution. Atheists tend to put all Christians into one category: those who believe in evolution and those who believe in a literal seven day creation. They relentlessly judge Christians for this even though they don't know the first thing about their individual convictions and beliefs. Not every Christian is so out of the scientific loop that they don't know about micro and macro evolution. But yeah, we can't know if God is there. That's why it's called faith though. If God gave you ultimate evidence of his existence, there would be no walk of faith, and that's what Jesus is all about: following him to the ends of the earth.

-blank stare-

Its the same joke, over and over. Whats the point?

SoxSweepAgain: Just exactly how are you receiving commands from this "Christ" dude

The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is the best manual for life that you could ever need. When you actually sit down and read it, you're not just reading a book, you are in communication with God, if only you listen to him. Jesus is the Son of God, but he is 100% man and 100% God. When you receive a command from Jesus, you are receiving a command from God. They are one and the same. This is what's referred to as the Holy Trinity: the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (a gift that Jesus left behind when he ascended to heaven after his resurrection). The Holy Spirit guides us to seek out the treasures of Heaven, not the treasures of earth.

Learned Louisianan: "Agreed. Resorting to violence is never an acceptable solution to social instability. And we certainly don't need to be using techniques we condemn (especially when used by religions and religious organizations) to affect religions and religious organizations."

It goes beyond that. If anyone with sincere exterminationist intent is a part of the American atheist movement we have to turn on them like a pack of pirahna the moment they out themselves. We cannot stand in opposition to proto-theocratic movements like the Tea Party while allowing extremist elements to gain power in our own movement the way they do in theirs.

It's not enough to just be against religion. We have to be for humanist values. And part of preserving those values is ejecting the monstrously anti-human from our midst like a shot from a cannon. Into the sun.

"There's no longer evidence for a need of God, even less of Christ. The so-called traditional churches look like they are dying."

As an atheist all I can say is: thank god.

Learned Louisianian: Zamboro: Second Try: "I say we kill all theists. Farking useless sheeple, can't even think for themselves. Round them up and burn them at stake, that shall cleanse the world."

Over my cold, dead body. This movement has no need of genociders. Acknowledge the validity of secular ethics as it applies to the treatment of potentially hostile opponents; under no circumstances is extermination an acceptable recourse.

Agreed. Resorting to violence is never an acceptable solution to social instability. And we certainly don't need to be using techniques we condemn (especially when used by religions and religious organizations) to affect religions and religious organizations.

Why not?

ignite ice: SoxSweepAgain: Just exactly how are you receiving commands from this "Christ" dude

The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is the best manual for life that you could ever need. When you actually sit down and read it, you're not just reading a book, you are in communication with God, if only you listen to him. Jesus is the Son of God, but he is 100% man and 100% God. When you receive a command from Jesus, you are receiving a command from God. They are one and the same. This is what's referred to as the Holy Trinity: the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (a gift that Jesus left behind when he ascended to heaven after his resurrection). The Holy Spirit guides us to seek out the treasures of Heaven, not the treasures of earth.

Please give it a rest, you tiny, impotent, shriveled, malodorous, slimy, gray prick.

Knara: coco ebert:

Take it from someone who knows, Evangelicals are everything bad about Christianity wrapped up in a smiling, fluffy package.

Oh Knara.... we Farkers have been looking forever for someone "That Knows". Please do say, and keep typing, fast, as we need to hear quickly!

Second Try: Why not?

I think it's summed up in the case He-started-it v. Not-touching-not-touching.

Zamboro: Still pretty upset about the original Prop 8 though, it was a rare loss that interrupted a long string of secular victories against the Christian right. And it wasn't a throwaway issue either, they nearly set a precedent for the legal discrimination between Christians and groups they consider unfit in the eyes of God.

You know, I never really saw this as a "Christian" issue, although I know it was often cast as one. Maybe I know too many Christian liberals who were against it.

The whole marriage regulation issue always seems to me to be simply about social conservatism, and not really at heart about religion. Although I get that the Christian Right is naturally associated, by definition, with social conservatism.

Anyway, don't be too upset. It's only a matter of time before marraige is extended to include gay couples in America. Frankly, I don't think it will be very much time at that.

Occam's Penis Pump: ignite ice: SoxSweepAgain: Just exactly how are you receiving commands from this "Christ" dude

The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is the best manual for life that you could ever need. When you actually sit down and read it, you're not just reading a book, you are in communication with God, if only you listen to him. Jesus is the Son of God, but he is 100% man and 100% God. When you receive a command from Jesus, you are receiving a command from God. They are one and the same. This is what's referred to as the Holy Trinity: the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (a gift that Jesus left behind when he ascended to heaven after his resurrection). The Holy Spirit guides us to seek out the treasures of Heaven, not the treasures of earth.

Please give it a rest, you tiny, impotent, shriveled, malodorous, slimy, gray prick.

I really wish our shiatty trolls would RTFM on trolling. Your score is divided by your number of posts in a thread.

flunk_your_mother: As an atheist all I can say is: thank god.

It seems the older xtian people get, the more they hope for armageddon. They all hope to see everyone die before they do. The death of organized religion is all hope to live to see.

Fuller: Dirty Martini: Maybe when you have children, you see how important it is to have community support. So far we haven't come up with anything better than church for that.

BS, I have far better community than any superstitious nonsense could provide.


Personnally, I've never found a replacement for the one I grew up with, within a church. School is wonderful while you're a student and comes close, but soon enough you're not a student anymore, and academia is very cutthroat. The neighborhoods I've lived in are always in flux - people move in and out constantly, and you might never even talk to them. (Whereas in a church setting, or at least the one I'm familiar with, you have to interact with the newcomers and try to make them feel welcome.) Sometimes I don't think my parents were really very religious at all, they just liked the auxiliary benefits.

Am an atheist. Kind of wish there was a similar substitute for us, but know it would be herding cats.

ignite ice: SoxSweepAgain: Just exactly how are you receiving commands from this "Christ" dude

The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is the best manual for life that you could ever need. When you actually sit down and read it, you're not just reading a book, you are in communication with God, if only you listen to him. Jesus is the Son of God, but he is 100% man and 100% God. When you receive a command from Jesus, you are receiving a command from God. They are one and the same. This is what's referred to as the Holy Trinity: the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (a gift that Jesus left behind when he ascended to heaven after his resurrection). The Holy Spirit guides us to seek out the treasures of Heaven, not the treasures of earth.

The Bible is a mythology book used by organized religion to control minds of unthinking people. Surely you don't think any of those fairy tales could possibly be true?

Anyone stupid enough to believe it should be mind raped. That's how you fight lies, fire against fire.

/yes, I like fire.

So, shouldn't this god thingy start getting all mad that we're ignoring it again? IIRC, god doesn't like it when large segments of the populace ignore it. Something about floods or locusts or some other environmental temper tantrum. I wonder what Ozzy's take on this is?

boobsrgood: flunk_your_mother: As an atheist all I can say is: thank god.

It seems the older xtian people get, the more they hope for armageddon. They all hope to see everyone die before they do. The death of organized religion is all hope to live to see.

Why wait for them to die? Let's just farking kill em all. They are the past, we are the future!

LindyJohn - technicolor-misfit: In a fairly reasonable environment, a centrist position will likely be "moderate." It's incorrect to conclude it always will, or that it is ideal.

In Nazi Germany, a centrist position would have been to simply thin the numbers of Jews, or to imprison them rather than exterminating them.

In the civil rights struggle, a compromise would have been to increase funding for black schools or to require restaurants to have a black section.

Neither of these positions is moderate or laudable.

Similarly, a civil unions solution might be acceptable if the state gets out of the marrying business altogether and issues civil unions to all... IF such a solution weren't a nuclear option favored by opponents of gay marriage in the event that it looks like they're going to lose.

The only time it ever seems amenable to them is when it's a last ditch effort to prevent the homos from getting their dirty hands on "real marriage."

In that regard, it always has the stench of a shiat sandwich.



Idealists are always disgusted by moderates to one degree or another. Afterall, when you have The Truth on your side, and damn-it you know you are right and why can't everyone else just see that, any compromise with your position is a shiat sandwich.

In that degree, you are no different from a dyed in the wool social conservative who was for Prop 8. You both think you are morally correct, and have Truth on your side, and to compromise your position is just an argument about how many bites of a shiat sandwich you are willing to take.

Myself, I'm a big fan of compromise and poitical moderation. It's what makes a peaceful democracy, and graceful social change-- although I agree it slows the progress towards that which those of you know is Right (whatever that is).

//By the way, nice Godwin.


Except that I AM right. You can't say "you're just like the pro-prop 8 guy. He thinks he's right too!" because he's NOT right. Even the Bible that he uses to justify his actions tells him that he's NOT right. It's very explicit that judgment is left to God, and that it's not John Q. Christian's duty or right to impose godliness on his neighbor. In his heart, even HE probably knows what he's doing isn't right.

This is like a debate I got into with some guy on the imdb board for "Inglorious Basterds" because he claimed there was no difference between the nazis and the basterds because they were both brutal... and I told him that was idiotic because the basterds were brutal to ruthless killers, and the nazis were brutal to dairy farmers and children.

Trust me, I see the grey when it's there... I'm not generally a moral absolutist... but sometimes there really is no farking grey area. Very often, one side is absolutely 100% wrong, and one side is 100% right. Gay marriage is one of those situations. Civil rights was one. Nazi extermination of Jews was one.

And you need to learn what a Godwin is. It's not "any mention of nazis!" I didn't compare anyone to nazis. I used the nazis as an example of a situation wherein compromise doesn't result in a moderate position.

Mr. Labels: So, shouldn't this god thingy start getting all mad that we're ignoring it again? IIRC, god doesn't like it when large segments of the populace ignore it. Something about floods or locusts or some other environmental temper tantrum.

God's currently on sabbatical but you can leave a message and it will be ignored in the order in which it was received.

LindyJohn: You know, I never really saw this as a "Christian" issue, although I know it was often cast as one. Maybe I know too many Christian liberals who were against it.

Are you serious? The opposition to gay marriage is almost entirely religious in nature. What possible non-religious objection could there be to it?

Dirty Martini: Personnally, I've never found a replacement for the one I grew up with, within a church.

You're thinking too two dimensionally. It doesn't need to be a direct 1 to 1 substitution. You can find community in places and ways you wouldn't expect. Some people like the pub. Some like sports. Some like live music. Book clubs. Charity work. Any shared interest, really. There's no big mystery about it.

Thats one of the tricks the church managed to pull off, convincing you that without it, there's a big hole in your life. I mean there is a hole, but you can fill it with, you know, something actually productive.

Second Try: Learned Louisianian: Zamboro: Second Try: "I say we kill all theists. Farking useless sheeple, can't even think for themselves. Round them up and burn them at stake, that shall cleanse the world."

Over my cold, dead body. This movement has no need of genociders. Acknowledge the validity of secular ethics as it applies to the treatment of potentially hostile opponents; under no circumstances is extermination an acceptable recourse.

Agreed. Resorting to violence is never an acceptable solution to social instability. And we certainly don't need to be using techniques we condemn (especially when used by religions and religious organizations) to affect religions and religious organizations.

Why not?

First and foremost: Moral high ground. Everyone hates a hypocrite. If we use violent means to achieve ANYTHING, then we are no better than the groups we oppose and nobody will take us seriously or trust us.

Secondly, if we sink to the same level as those we oppose, we become no better than them, at which point, victory becomes impossible. If our influence is just as destructive as our opponent's, then we gain nothing by supplanting them, and the world as a whole is worse off than when we started. The goal of all humanists is to IMPROVE things for future generations. If things stay the same or get worse, we lose. That is unacceptable. I want my children to grow up in a safer, happier, more socially and culturally advanced world in which they can prosper and improve themselves and the world around them.

Fuller: Thats one of the tricks the church managed to pull off, convincing you that without it, there's a big hole in your life. I mean there is a hole, but you can fill it with, you know, something actually productive.

How is church not productive? It's a community like any other community, but you instantly know that you can trust the people there. They have the same beliefs as you, the same goals, the same outlook on life. A church is a place that brings people with like-minds together and gives them a place to worship God together. You want to fill your admitted void with worldly things, you can try. It won't work, and you'll see that.

ignite ice: SoxSweepAgain: Just exactly how are you receiving commands from this "Christ" dude

The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is the best manual for life that you could ever need. When you actually sit down and read it, you're not just reading a book, you are in communication with God, if only you listen to him. Jesus is the Son of God, but he is 100% man and 100% God. When you receive a command from Jesus, you are receiving a command from God. They are one and the same. This is what's referred to as the Holy Trinity: the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (a gift that Jesus left behind when he ascended to heaven after his resurrection). The Holy Spirit guides us to seek out the treasures of Heaven, not the treasures of earth.

I like turtles.

LindyJohn: "Idealists are always disgusted by moderates to one degree or another. Afterall, when you have The Truth on your side, and damn-it you know you are right and why can't everyone else just see that, any compromise with your position is a shiat sandwich."

That isn't it, though. You never asked why I take issue with moderates. It's not because I am unreceptive to compromise. If that were the case I wouldn't be so willing to treat them as brothers in arms against the fundies.

My first issue with moderate Christianity is that it still maintains that faith is a legitimate basis for knowledge, which puts it squarely into conflict with science for one reason; Science is built upon empiricism, which affirms the necessity of supporting claims with evidence. The Christian religion is built upon faith, which denies that necessity. Strictly speaking, they are mutually exclusive epistemological models, i.e. foundations for claims, how we know what we know.

Moreover, while only some atrocities in history resulted from religious hatred, all of them involved unreason. In promoting faith as virtuous, Christianity acts as the most prolific popularizer of unreason in the world today.

My second issue is that of science denial. Many seem to accept evolution and think that's the end of it. They seem to lack historical perspective. In the distant past, the great controversies between science and religion included things like "are the planets actual places we could go to and stand upon, driven in their orbits by natural forces, or are they featureless, geometrically perfect lights in the sky placed there and pushed around in their orbits by God?" and "is weather a function of spirits and demons in the air (as St. Thomas Aquinas insisted) or is it natural, and if so, is it an expression of distrust in God to use a lightning rod?" Even earlier, the disputes were things like "is rain natural, or does it fall through trap doors in the firmament spoken of in scriptures which separates the water above from the water below?". Perhaps my favorite example is the controversy surrounding germ theory. The thing about germ theory is that if you were emotionally invested in the alternative (that evil spirits inhabiting the body cause illness) you could engage in philosophical calvinball to defend the idea, pointing out that both evil spirits and germs could be equally to blame for disease. You could define those disease spirits in such a way that their existence looks suspiciously like nonexistence to all methods available to science. But since nobody was quite that invested in the notion, most recognized that germ theory had disproven it. Not absolutely, but to any reasonable man's satisfaction.

Likewise with the soul. What we know of the brain thanks to cognitive neurobiology suggests that consciousness, memory and emotion are products of it's operation, not a separate ghost that resides within the brain or interacts with it remotely, driving your body around like a meat robot. This should be common sense. If someone who doesn't have this argument on his or her mind witnesses someone dying from a gunshot wound to the head, on some level they'll know why. The brain was destroyed. It was everything that made the victim who he or she was. But if you bring up the matter of cognitive neurobiology, it's like they switch into a whole different, defensive way of thinking; they make arguments they privately don't consider legitimate just for the sake of preserving their position, arguments like "Well maybe it just looks like the brain is what we think with. Perhaps that's to throw us off". Which is the "maybe dinosaur fossils were buried by Satan to trick us" argument repackaged for neurobiology.

Like with germ theory, while we can't absolutely prove that a ghost doesn't live in your brain and drive it around (or control it remotely like in Avatar) it's been proven to any reasonable person's satisfaction. If it weren't so different from germ theory, if it didn't concern the question of whether or not we'll survive our own deaths and be reunited with our loved ones, moderate Christians would've discarded it as completely as they discarded the "evil disease spirit" hypothesis.

But they haven't. In most cases it's because they aren't aware of the conflict; they've accepted evolution and figured that was enough to fully reconcile their worldview with modern science, so the whole "cognitive neurobiology contradicts metaphysical dualism" hits them like a curveball out of nowhere. It's why, actually, many of the people and organizations behind the push for intelligence design in schools have shifted their goal to pushing metaphysical dualism as an "Alternative" to cognitive neurobiology in science classrooms.

I'm just hoping that when it really erupts and gives us the next Dover versus Kitzmiller type of trial, the moderate Christians have still got our backs.

ignite ice - Fuller: Thats one of the tricks the church managed to pull off, convincing you that without it, there's a big hole in your life. I mean there is a hole, but you can fill it with, you know, something actually productive.



How is church not productive? It's a community like any other community, but you instantly know that you can trust the people there...


...until they start poking your kids in the rectory.

Knara: IlGreven: Evangelicals aren't Christian...in the actual "follow the teachings of Christ" sense of the word. In fact, most people who profess to follow the Biblical word of God aren't "Christian" in that same sense. Wasn't Christ's one and only violent outburst directed to those who used places of worship for profit? Makes you wonder about those sects who collect money for "indulgences" and these megachurches with pastors who drive Corvettes and yet don't "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"...

/No Christians worship at megachurches.
//No Christians believe forgiveness can be bought.

No True Scotsman... (new window)

Are you saying that Christians aren't true Christians unless they go commando?

/I haven't slept and am confused

Has anyone else noticed how Second Try seems to show up late in ignite ice's piss-poor trolling attempts?

ignite ice: You want to fill your admitted void with worldly things, you can try. It won't work, and you'll see that.

Yeah, that totally explains the guy at my gym with the expensive new sportscar with the words "Jesus Freak" in giant Gothic letters on the back windshield.

Personally, I don't think I have that "void". If I do, I fill it with D&D, art, writing, and other hobbies. I just picked up hooping and I definitely see the pseudo-spiritual side of that, even if I don't give a crap about any god.

I tell you what I'll do about atheism growing at the expense of organized religions.

I'm going to sit back, queue up the song, "We are the Champions," and just wait 'till a good time to press play.

/ wish it would be in my lifetime, but probably not.
// I have faith in humanity though.

Fuller:

Dirty Martini: Personnally, I've never found a replacement for the one I grew up with, within a church.

You're thinking too two dimensionally. It doesn't need to be a direct 1 to 1 substitution. You can find community in places and ways you wouldn't expect. Some people like the pub. Some like sports. Some like live music. Book clubs. Charity work.

A church can be all those things at once.

Sorry for playing devil's advocate here... I can see the point you're trying to make, I just can't see the guys at my local pub being that dependable. Certainly not the guys at the concert venue or the book club.

/Perhaps just going to the wrong pub.

No one ever said being a Christian was easy

Second Try: "Why not?"

Because there are no evil, irredeemable people. Even the worst had the same potential at birth as you, and don't knowingly do terrible things. For the most part they've simply been convinced what they're doing is virtuous.

It doesn't mean we can reason them out of it but it does mean that we can't kill them without incurring a severe ethical cost. And that's if we were to accept murder as a solution at all, which we can't, as it's inherently antihuman. The destruction of complex life, stripped of all social/political/religious/cultural/economic context is a crude, blunt, inanimate slug tearing through the most beautiful and intricate perception machine in the known universe. A way for the universe to know itself. Another instance of that rarest and most precious of phenomena; sentient, intelligent life. Picture yourself building the biggest, most elaborate sandcastle on the beach. And then a bully kicks it over. Now magnify that feeling by another order of magnitude for every neuron in the brain that you've just splattered with a stupid, primitive lead slug. An evolved being acting against his own species' struggle for survival.

One of the ways we define our own morality as evolved beyond that of a chimp is the degree to which we extend empathy. Chimps typically extend empathy only to kin, recorded instances where they've extended empathy and altruism to non-family members are rare. By comparison humans are much more willing to put ourselves out to help someone, even if they don't share our genes. Wouldn't a further extension of that principle have us treat even misguided opponents not as inhuman or worthy of slaughter, but as unfortunately misguided, and worthy of concern and attempts at reconciliation?

To exterminate is contrary to every quality that shines in humanity. It's gross indulgence in the worst aspects of our nature, a destructive act against life itself and the universe that produced it. Genocide is never anything less than anti-human, anti-life, and anti-love. It is the abandonment of all that makes us deserving of longterm survival, and the embrace of all that makes us undeserving.

ignite ice: SoxSweepAgain: Just exactly how are you receiving commands from this "Christ" dude

The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is the best manual for life that you could ever need. When you actually sit down and read it, you're not just reading a book, you are in communication with God, if only you listen to him. Jesus is the Son of God, but he is 100% man and 100% God. When you receive a command from Jesus, you are receiving a command from God. They are one and the same. This is what's referred to as the Holy Trinity: the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (a gift that Jesus left behind when he ascended to heaven after his resurrection). The Holy Spirit guides us to seek out the treasures of Heaven, not the treasures of earth.

2 Samuel 24
1 Chronicles 21

1. Who motivated David to take the census?
2. What was the final count?
3. What were the plagues?

ignite ice: Fuller: Thats one of the tricks the church managed to pull off, convincing you that without it, there's a big hole in your life. I mean there is a hole, but you can fill it with, you know, something actually productive.

How is church not productive? It's a community like any other community, but you instantly know that you can trust the people there. They have the same beliefs as you, the same goals, the same outlook on life. A church is a place that brings people with like-minds together and gives them a place to worship God together. You want to fill your admitted void with worldly things, you can try. It won't work, and you'll see that.

This is probably the happiest article I have read in quite some time, happy in that it actually makes me smile. I dream of living in an age when religion no longer exists, but alas I was born in an era where stupidity reigned supreme. Oh well.

Miss Stein: Hookers are found beneath televangelists all the time. Nothing new here.

Rimshot!

Knara: Oh, and btw, Jesus would probably rather have hung out with hookers than with Evangelicals. At least the Jesus of the synoptic Gospels would have.

He did hang with hookers, several to be exact. One especially got his attention, cause she was named after his mom...

ignite ice: How is church not productive? It's a community like any other community, but you instantly know that you can trust the people there.

Like hell you can. What makes you think church goers are more trustworthy than anyone else?

I think its unproductive because I don't think god is real, and so all the worship amounts to nothing but a waste of time. All the community stuff - there's no reason that can't be done without the supernatural stuff.

ignite ice: They have the same beliefs as you, the same goals, the same outlook on life. A church is a place that brings people with like-minds together and gives them a place to worship God together. You want to fill your admitted void with worldly things, you can try. It won't work, and you'll see that.

Excuse me? Its worked my whole life. There is no void left by the absence of superstition, thank you very much. What a ridiculous idea. Typical religious arrogance.

Dirty Martini: A church can be all those things at once.

So? It makes truth claims about the world that are massively implausible and it cant possibly know. That rules it out before the game even starts. Sorry, it just doesnt get to play.

Dirty Martini: Sorry for playing devil's advocate here... I can see the point you're trying to make, I just can't see the guys at my local pub being that dependable. Certainly not the guys at the concert venue or the book club.

Well its not my fault you've judged these hypothetical people before even meeting them. Anyway thats beside the point. The point is the church doesnt offer anything that cant be found elsewhere in forms that do not include silly rituals, outlandish truth claims and ancient superstitions that have no basis in reality.

jerem43: He did hang with hookers, several to be exact. One especially got his attention, cause she was named after his mom... his wife.

Second Try: Why wait for them to die? Let's just farking kill em all. They are the past, we are the future!

That kind of blind self-righteous hatred is exactly why religion is a pox on humanity.

Fuller: ignite ice: They have the same beliefs as you, the same goals, the same outlook on life. A church is a place that brings people with like-minds together and gives them a place to worship God together. You want to fill your admitted void with worldly things, you can try. It won't work, and you'll see that.

Excuse me? Its worked my whole life. There is no void left by the absence of superstition, thank you very much. What a ridiculous idea. Typical religious arrogance.

...or typical ignite trooollllllllaaaaaah caught me. Tired. Still don't see the point