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(Yahoo)   New Mormon ad campaign attempts to wash away the stain of being associated with polygamists, racists, homophobia, and Twilight   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 483
    More: Unlikely, Mormons, tv ads, homophobia, Brigham Young University, polygamy, Mitts, u.s. cities, intelligent people  
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10890 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Aug 2010 at 3:37 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-08-12 07:37:27 PM
TelJanin: There's nothing in any doctrine anywhere that says we hate caffeine.

Actually, the proscription against hot drinks explicitly bans coffee and tea, and it is generally interpreted to extend to things like Diet Coke. This is generally rationalized as being because caffeine is also somewhat addicting...not that this is really consistent with the actual science involved, and not that caffeine desensitization is anything like alcoholism.

It boggles the mind that God would bother to ban coffee when there are so many other things which are much more harmful. Where's the detailed revelation on how to solve obesity? I see plenty of fat Mormons, so this "only eat a little meat" thing obviously isn't enough. And actively encouraging racism and elitism while placing a taboo on tea - which can be quite clearly shown to have health benefits both directly and indirectly? If there was really a God like that, I wouldn't want anything to do with it.

Zamboro: fushigi: "Dude, you'd have a much better time making your points if you didn't totally misconstrue mine and then decide to quote off it."

I don't think you're able to recognize your own position when it's described unflatteringly.


This isn't magically undoing your reading comprehension fail, dude.
 
2010-08-12 07:39:49 PM
fushigi: "This isn't magically undoing your reading comprehension fail, dude."

If you failed to clearly express your position, that's nobody's fault but your own.
 
2010-08-12 07:41:27 PM
fushigi: Actually, the proscription against hot drinks explicitly bans coffee and tea, and it is generally interpreted to extend to things like Diet Coke. This is generally rationalized as being because caffeine is also somewhat addicting...not that this is really consistent with the actual science involved, and not that caffeine desensitization is anything like alcoholism.

This is actually one of the most contentious issues within the church, at least in Utah. There are factions that argue it is the caffeine, but there are plenty who are addicted to it and argue it must be something else in the coffee and tea.
 
2010-08-12 07:41:57 PM
Zamboro: Now back to my main point which you deftly ignored; Reframing religion in such a way as to accommodate science is, in essence, saying "I will accept the findings of science so long as they can be tweaked a little so that they fit comfortably into this religious narrative." It's like saying that you're only open to considering ideas that mesh neatly with the Lord of the Rings canon.

I agree. That is ridiculous. It's why I'm a scientist. If i am going to let anything or anyone dictate how things should go in my life, I want it backed by fact and repetition.
 
2010-08-12 07:42:16 PM
thnksqrd: hauoli_akua: tarkus1980: Apeleutheros: grizzlyjohnson: Apeleutheros: You are correct though, most 19 year old guys have no idea where they'd like to serve, they just announce their willingness and then go where they are called.

But if you have pull in the church you can get your kid posted to Hawaii or France.

I'm sure it happens. It's big (huge) organization.
I'll bet those people can still do great things is Hawaii or France.

Dude, France is not a desirable mission. I've known a few people who served in France, and none of them had a happy experience with it.

Can't speak for Hawaii.

I served in Hawaii. It was a mission.
Had a friend serve in France.
We both renormalized pretty quickly.

Renormalized double plus ungood
Reindoctrinated double plus good.


I suspect the kids who get missions in France end up coming back home with a goatee, carrying a bottle of wine, and with a buxom brunette on their arm. "Papa, Maman, this is Monique, she is an artist's model and works part-time for an erotic cabaret in Marseilles, we are in an open relationship with her friend Giselle and her former lovers Henri and Suzette."
 
2010-08-12 07:47:33 PM
I was raised Mormon by my stepdad and I got as far away from that crackpot institution as soon as I moved out. There is a lot of hypocrisy, but then every religion has hypocrisy, the Mormons flaunt it just a little more. At church on Sunday it was funny noticing all of the Mormon kids who were hungover from partying the night before (including the bishop's son). You can sin all you want and as grievously as you wish, as long as you pray about it the next day you're washed clean. My roommate in college (I went to BYU), was homosexual. But he prayed the gay away and went on his mission. Wonder how that worked out for him.

All of this "evidence" for Jesus in America seriously makes me LOL
 
2010-08-12 07:49:10 PM
gulogulo: "I agree. That is ridiculous. It's why I'm a scientist. If i am going to let anything or anyone dictate how things should go in my life, I want it backed by fact and repetition."

I kind of admire the balls it takes, though, to demand that facts be made to fit in with a mythological narrative prior to acceptance, so that the person you're trying to convince to accept said findings never has to admit that the narrative wasn't "right all along".

It's like that infamous interview with the Aqua Teen Hunger Force creators following that silly bomb scare (where some cop thought the LED mooninite sign was a bomb). They agreed to hold an interview with the press, then showed up with ridiculous hairstyles and said "We will only answer hair related questions".

The theological equivalent of that is "I will only entertain scientific findings that have been framed in such a way that they do not contradict scripture. Then I can pretend they were metpaphorically explained in the Bible all along, and in doing so my religion assumes some of the authority and legitimacy of science."

Kind of a one-sided deal. Science informs religion all the time, but never has the inverse happened, unless you consider attempts to impose Biblically defined moral limits on science "informing" it.
 
2010-08-12 07:53:50 PM
gulogulo: I agree. That is ridiculous. It's why I'm a scientist. If i am going to let anything or anyone dictate how things should go in my life, I want it backed by fact and repetition.

I'm going to assume you missed the original post, which more or less made the point that religion can have great cultural and social value and might be better at that if it got out of the practice of claiming to provide absolute truth.

As to facts - what's your poison? Anthropology? Psychology? Sociology? Epidemiology? The idea that religion is a key vector for conveying culture and morality isn't exactly radical and it has been well-studied. Go punch "social value of religion" into JSTOR for starters...there are tons of results discussing it from just about any angle you could desire.

There are some things science is great at, and others it's not really the right tool for. Studying a society is a scientific problem. Social engineering is not.
 
2010-08-12 07:55:06 PM
mralphabet: was raised Mormon by my stepdad and I got as far away from that crackpot institution as soon as I moved out. There is a lot of hypocrisy, but then every religion has hypocrisy, the Mormons flaunt it just a little more. At church on Sunday it was funny noticing all of the Mormon kids who were hungover from partying the night before (including the bishop's son). You can sin all you want and as grievously as you wish, as long as you pray about it the next day you're washed clean. My roommate in college (I went to BYU), was homosexual. But he prayed the gay away and went on his mission. Wonder how that worked out for him.

All of this "evidence" for Jesus in America seriously makes me LOL


My old boss still considers himself LDS but parties every weekend and is probably snorting coke off a whore's ass as we speak. Damn guy still wears those damn garments as he's doing it. Talk about conflicted.

/does have the creepy LDS Jesus throughout the house just in case
//lives about 1 mile north of the Mesa Temple
 
2010-08-12 07:57:09 PM
RocketRod: Mormons..? Eh, not much kookier than any other denomination. Except foe the whole "magic underwear" thing. Oh, and Mountain Meadows.

People keeping bringing up their "magic underwear" but how is that different than "silly hat" jews wear or the "crazy scarf thingy" muslim women wear? Lots of religions have sacred clothes. It just happens that Mormons wear theirs underneath where you can't see them.
 
2010-08-12 07:58:50 PM
fushigi: zaier: Apeleutheros: I think you should start a church.

Yeah, it is really too bad that my morals won't allow me to lie and swindle large groups of people like Joseph Smith's lack of morals allow him to. Just think of all those strictly enforced tithes I could get!

I frequently lament the same thing. Human stupidity appears to be a nearly unending resource for anyone who's enough of a bastard to exploit it.


No kidding right? Tons of people have made so much money off of exploiting others. Psychics, preachers, prophets, faith healers...

It is pretty amazing that people are willing to pay so much money to feel like they belong to something or are doing something good, or just to hear what they want to hear. I'm a decent actor, I could totally pull it off if it weren't for the fact that I couldn't bring myself to exploit people like that.
 
KN
2010-08-12 07:59:00 PM
If you belong to a highly secretive religion that controls your life right down to what kind of underwear you can wear, what you can drink, say, where you can marry and who can be there, expects 10% of your income every year, is rampantly sexist, racist and homophobic, and has to make commercials convincing the public it's "normal", you just might be in a cult, or you're either Muslim or Mormon, but I repeat myself.
 
2010-08-12 07:59:04 PM
Chiad: fushigi: Actually, the proscription against hot drinks explicitly bans coffee and tea, and it is generally interpreted to extend to things like Diet Coke. This is generally rationalized as being because caffeine is also somewhat addicting...not that this is really consistent with the actual science involved, and not that caffeine desensitization is anything like alcoholism.

This is actually one of the most contentious issues within the church, at least in Utah. There are factions that argue it is the caffeine, but there are plenty who are addicted to it and argue it must be something else in the coffee and tea.


Oddly, it doesn't seem to be a very complicated issue for the chemists. Caffeine has some very specific effects on the brain's neurochemistry which tend to prevent loss of alertness (it's not properly a stimulant). Frequent use leads to the body adapting to this influence, such that it's hard to become fully alert in the morning until caffeine has been supplied (to a point, it mainly just alters how fast you wake up if you don't have it right away as usual), and the effects which maintain alertness tend to become diminished due to the desensitization.

There's absolutely no mechanism for an effect with caffeine analogous to alcoholism or nicotine addiction.
 
2010-08-12 08:00:04 PM
Zamboro: Kind of a one-sided deal. Science informs religion all the time, but never has the inverse happened, unless you consider attempts to impose Biblically defined moral limits on science "informing" it.

I think there have been time when Science and Religion have made o.k. bedfellows. Personally, for me as I was raised Christian, the more I delved into my scientific career the harder and harder it was to believe blindly in something that's so improbable and so -very- at odds with incontrovertible facts . This is not to say Science is infallible. I've seen the bad side, too, but religion, particularly organized religion of any kind has been used to control. It keeps people by promising them great things in an afterlife, something that no one can ever disprove or prove, and in turn seem to line the pockets with tithings of the few in control. I tolerate people who have or need religion, and there are people out there that do good things with it, but when it's used to control other people's lives outside of the religion (i.e. Prop 8) then that's where my tolerance ends.

The one thing I really like about scientists (in the majority, there's always a few wackjobs), is that when the evidence points to something being wrong, they will eventually say "We were wrong." Sure. Pride will get in the way, but eventually the books will show "this theory was wrong." Very rarely will religions do the same thing, even generations after that wrong was done.
 
2010-08-12 08:04:16 PM
Maybe you're having difficulty with this. If you make donations to a church, you get to deduct that from your taxes. If the church uses those donations to curry political favor, they are acting like a PAC, and you should not have been allowed to claim a tax deduction on that money you donated. That's all that's being said here. Nobody's trying to say the church can't act like a PAC, just that they can't act like a PAC while receiving the tax benefits of a church.
...
Yes, but those individuals are then donating their money to a tax-exempt organization (the church) and getting a tax deduction for the money they donate, so therefore the money being used by the church is not taxed. If those individuals were just pooling their own money and not getting any special tax considerations, then that would be fine. Prop 8 alone should be enough reason to revoke their tax-exempt status, and your failure to see the problem does not mean it doesn't exist.


Is this what they did, though? I mean, has that been documented?
 
2010-08-12 08:04:33 PM
fushigi: gulogulo: I agree. That is ridiculous. It's why I'm a scientist. If i am going to let anything or anyone dictate how things should go in my life, I want it backed by fact and repetition.

I'm going to assume you missed the original post, which more or less made the point that religion can have great cultural and social value and might be better at that if it got out of the practice of claiming to provide absolute truth.

As to facts - what's your poison? Anthropology? Psychology? Sociology? Epidemiology? The idea that religion is a key vector for conveying culture and morality isn't exactly radical and it has been well-studied. Go punch "social value of religion" into JSTOR for starters...there are tons of results discussing it from just about any angle you could desire.

There are some things science is great at, and others it's not really the right tool for. Studying a society is a scientific problem. Social engineering is not.


I did miss the original context. Biology. Specifically landscape ecology, but there's an element of biogeography in there as well. :) Religion doesn't really have a place there.
 
2010-08-12 08:07:07 PM
Zamboro:

Yeah, what that guy said.
 
2010-08-12 08:07:08 PM
zaier: No kidding right? Tons of people have made so much money off of exploiting others. Psychics, preachers, prophets, faith healers...

I seriously rage over some of the crap I see in the grocery store next to the pharmacy. What the hell is with putting homeopathic flower water between the place grandma picks up her heart pills and the emergency first aid stuff? People aren't usually discerning enough to pick up on the fact that they're not the same thing.

Although the shiat drug companies pull is worse. Selling meds they *know* are ineffective, pulling patent scams, playing profiteering games with peoples' lives...

Well, neither is all that different from the afterlife racket, come to think of it. It's all in the degree of legal and social protection, whether you're a religious leader, a businessman, or a crook.
 
2010-08-12 08:09:36 PM
gulogulo: biogeography

I should probably clarify that this is the study of how and why things are persisting where they persist now and what it used to be and where it's going now, in laymen's terms. This, for obvious reasons, is at odds with all creation mythos.
 
2010-08-12 08:11:38 PM
gulogulo: "I think there have been time when Science and Religion have made o.k. bedfellows."

Yeah, before the scope of science had grown to the point that it began to trespass on areas of the natural world that had been reserved for religion until then. It began to explain things that were supposed to remain unknowable, and that I suppose the authors of the Bible counted on being unknowable for all time.

gulogulo: "Personally, for me as I was raised Christian, the more I delved into my scientific career the harder and harder it was to believe blindly in something that's so improbable and so -very- at odds with incontrovertible facts."

I buy this too. The issue of human rationality is a glass half empty/glass half full deal. We're partly rational, and partly irrational by nature. Some despair at the fact that we're not wholly rational, while some are impressed that we're innately vulnerable to a well crafted argument even if we've never been taught to think critically. At any rate no matter how firm a facade someone erects, they feel the impact of your arguments if you craft them well, they just won't show it as nobody likes to lose face. It's later on when they're researching your claims (perhaps in the hopes of proving you wrong) that they gradually come around.

gulogulo: "This is not to say Science is infallible. I've seen the bad side, too, but religion, particularly organized religion of any kind has been used to control. It keeps people by promising them great things in an afterlife, something that no one can ever disprove or prove, and in turn seem to line the pockets with tithings of the few in control. I tolerate people who have or need religion, and there are people out there that do good things with it, but when it's used to control other people's lives outside of the religion (i.e. Prop 8) then that's where my tolerance ends."

It is used by some to control but I've never bought into the idea that it was deliberately created as a method for controlling people. I think it emerged organically from a lot of separate elements, like the urge to believe that death is not final, out of agony over the prospect of our own death as well as the trauma of watching loved ones die. That, couple with hero myths, hallucinogenic drug induced 'visions', experiences like sleep paralysis and pareidolia (and other neurological hiccups) convinced early man that something larger was going on, and he attempted to intuit the details from there.

gulogulo: "The one thing I really like about scientists (in the majority, there's always a few wackjobs), is that when the evidence points to something being wrong, they will eventually say "We were wrong." Sure. Pride will get in the way, but eventually the books will show "this theory was wrong." Very rarely will religions do the same thing, even generations after that wrong was done."

Absolutely. It's a surefire ticket to tenure, accolades and a dumptruck full of grant money if you can discredit a long established theory. That's what's nuts about the whole "big science is suppressing alternative theories" schtick of creationists, HIV deniers, anti-vaccinationists, homeopaths and everyone else who likes to play the "I'm an underdog/victim of big science" card because it illicits sympathy from people who hold sincere religious beliefs and distrust science anyway as a byproduct.
 
2010-08-12 08:16:48 PM
I don't mind mormons too much...but their missionaries are annoying.

Yes, I know we are the only foreigners in a tiny rural town in Japan, and yes, I love God too. But I can talk about other things. I have more than one interest. Every time we meet it's the same spiel...

Can't you talk about anything else?!

/Also read somewhere that you aren't allowed to have oral sex. Not sure if that is true or not.
 
2010-08-12 08:20:58 PM
gulogulo: gulogulo: biogeography

I should probably clarify that this is the study of how and why things are persisting where they persist now and what it used to be and where it's going now, in laymen's terms. This, for obvious reasons, is at odds with all creation mythos.


One of my first profs as an undergrad was a geographer who had just come back from studying bats.

I don't think much of religion, but I'm a great lover of mythology. Maybe it's not true in the sense Newton's Laws are true - but they are cultural artifacts which model aspects of the human psyche in the same way that Newton's Laws model non-relativistic kinematics. And I feel that as a scientist, it's always good to understand your instruments - especially the one you'll be using in every single thing you ever do.

Besides, it's fun. Egyptian poetry, the Enuma Elish, Japanese folk tales...
 
2010-08-12 08:22:10 PM
Chiad: the mormon church is specifically hypocritical in action as a body, in that they still preach polygamy will be practiced in heaven, and after a long and bitter fight to be allowed to practice polygamy (which I believe they should have been) they turn around and try to enforce the same marriage restrictions on gays that were brought against themselves.

Instead the mormon church should have championed the right to gay marriage and further argued that any consenting adults should be able to enter into a marriage, leading towards the legalization of polygamy and the reunification of the church. This would put them on the right side of the argument as far as civil rights go (for once) AND allow them to reunify beliefs with practices once again.


You said exactly what I wanted to, but better.
/i.e. THIS
 
2010-08-12 08:24:01 PM
fushigi: gulogulo: gulogulo: biogeography

I should probably clarify that this is the study of how and why things are persisting where they persist now and what it used to be and where it's going now, in laymen's terms. This, for obvious reasons, is at odds with all creation mythos.

One of my first profs as an undergrad was a geographer who had just come back from studying bats.

I don't think much of religion, but I'm a great lover of mythology. Maybe it's not true in the sense Newton's Laws are true - but they are cultural artifacts which model aspects of the human psyche in the same way that Newton's Laws model non-relativistic kinematics. And I feel that as a scientist, it's always good to understand your instruments - especially the one you'll be using in every single thing you ever do.

Besides, it's fun. Egyptian poetry, the Enuma Elish, Japanese folk tales...


Actually, the great thing about being a scientist is that it always leaves the door open. I can't disprove or prove certain things, so there's always a possibility. I can never say for certain "There is no God." all I can say is, "I don't know and the current stories from the major religions don't adequately explain physical phenomenon I see." So. There's that. That makes me Agnostic I guess?
 
2010-08-12 08:28:58 PM
dark side of the moon: People keeping bringing up their "magic underwear" but how is that different than "silly hat" jews wear or the "crazy scarf thingy" muslim women wear? Lots of religions have sacred clothes. It just happens that Mormons wear theirs underneath where you can't see them.

It isn't any different or less silly. It is EXACTLY as silly and pointless and that's what people are pointing out via their mockery.


fushigi: Oddly, it doesn't seem to be a very complicated issue for the chemists. Caffeine has some very specific effects on the brain's neurochemistry which tend to prevent loss of alertness (it's not properly a stimulant). Frequent use leads to the body adapting to this influence, such that it's hard to become fully alert in the morning until caffeine has been supplied (to a point, it mainly just alters how fast you wake up if you don't have it right away as usual), and the effects which maintain alertness tend to become diminished due to the desensitization.

There's absolutely no mechanism for an effect with caffeine analogous to alcoholism or nicotine addiction.



I'm with ya buddy, just trying to help you sharpen your horns for your next meeting with the mormons ;) There are much more blatant hypocrisies and contradictions within the mormon church, focus on those. Remember, the mormons are good people, they are just mislead and conditioned to be obedient, and told many false things. Most feel bad about the whole Prop 8 thing but aren't going to speak or go against their church because they've been told that's god directing things and they will have a fullness of understanding in time. Many can be shown the light of truth and reason, only a few are so lost as to no longer care if the belief is true, just that it feels good. Hate the church, show compassion to those caught up in it. It's an abusive relationship, and like any abusive relationship they are too afraid to be apart from the church because they've been told the outsiders will hate them and harm them.
 
2010-08-12 08:33:31 PM
pft, all they have to do is tell people they were buddies with Howard Hughes, the greatest man that ever lived.
 
2010-08-12 08:35:53 PM
gulogulo: Actually, the great thing about being a scientist is that it always leaves the door open. I can't disprove or prove certain things, so there's always a possibility. I can never say for certain "There is no God." all I can say is, "I don't know and the current stories from the major religions don't adequately explain physical phenomenon I see." So. There's that. That makes me Agnostic I guess?

That's pretty much it. There's nothing to support such a conclusion, and plenty of evidence to show that similarly-structured claims tend to be unsubstantiated. Religious explanations are the result of a loop defect in the way we go about doing inductive reasoning - the mind will be happier with an explanation, even a capricious one, than it will be with an unknown. The unknown terrifies us - for good reason! We evolved a fear of the unknown because it tends to be dangerous. The scientific mind is itself something of an anomaly - it's a fluke antisocial behavior which we've taken to repeating because the payoff has been huge enough to override the social tendency to suppress behaviors that involve poking the happy fun ball in the dark place until something interesting happens.

But hell, maybe there's a sentient entity out there somewhere pulling the strings on the universe. Why not? I doubt it would function anything like the human mind has ever dreamed up, but why not? But if something like that exists, my first impulse would be to see if I could measure it - what happens when I bounce a laser off it, what's its emission spectrum, does it exert gravitational influence?
 
2010-08-12 08:37:29 PM
FuryOfFirestorm: The only positive thing I hear about Mormons is how "family oriented" and "well behaved" they are. Last time I checked, it's possible to raise well-adjusted children and have a happy family without belonging to any specific faith. It just pisses me off that these "Come to Christ" ads and their ilk imply that people are incapable of being happy or raising well-adjusted children without reading a 2000 year old book and believing in a dude that looks like Barry Gibb.

If you have to wear "magic underwear" and restrict your entertainment to G-rated movies to be happy, then you've got problems.


Oh come on! Barry Gibb? We all know (or should know) that the real Jesus was brown.

Just sayin'. Continue please.
 
2010-08-12 08:41:32 PM
Ooshatielf: I don't mind mormons too much...but their missionaries are annoying.

Yes, I know we are the only foreigners in a tiny rural town in Japan, and yes, I love God too. But I can talk about other things. I have more than one interest. Every time we meet it's the same spiel...

Can't you talk about anything else?!

/Also read somewhere that you aren't allowed to have oral sex. Not sure if that is true or not.


Definitely NOT true.

You're thinking of marriage.
 
2010-08-12 08:42:47 PM
Chiad: I'm with ya buddy, just trying to help you sharpen your horns for your next meeting with the mormons ;) There are much more blatant hypocrisies and contradictions within the mormon church, focus on those.

Well if I wanted to be a total bastard, there's always the whole Utnapishtim / Noah issue. But I figured that was a bit of an unfocused weapon since it is effectively historical evidence to the effect that the Bible is an amalgam based on pre-Abrahamic religions.

I was a bit suspicious about the whole Aten cult in Egypt - the timing there is a bit conveniently timed with the estimated timetable for certain events in Abrahamic lore. There is of course no way to check this - the region in question is hell on archeological artifacts, especially from a nomadic culture - but it made me wonder whether Abrahamic theology is a mixture of the Aten cult with Aegean migrants. Both mysteriously vanished around that time, with hints that they might have headed that way. Not that I specialize in history or archeology...it's just one of those interesting "what if" questions which popped into my head during a random history lecture, one which I know can probably never be answered.
 
2010-08-12 08:43:03 PM
Bacontastesgood: 0:38 in the vid she is about to slam into that dude on the floatie with her longboard. NOT COOL.

As for Mormons, I'm convinced it's a huge practical joke. I mean, Moroni? Cumorah? White folks in the US were teleported to the middle east? Magic rocks and underwear? Planet to rule after you die? How dumb are people that accept this shiat? It's even worse than the Jew zombie thing.


Well, sure, when you put it THAT way anything sounds bad!
 
2010-08-12 08:45:19 PM
TelJanin: Sorry, I'm not sure what the images are supposed to represent inthe context that you use them, however, yes, I honestly and sincerely feel that I've recieved a very personal answer to my prayers, and I know for myself that my beliefs are true.

Okay, fair enough, now,
Do you thing God has a checklist?

TelJanin
Worthy? check
Mormon? check

Are you not capable, in and of yourself, to experience "a very personal answer?" Does your relationship with the divine depend on your religion?

And please, don't be disingenuous. You know perfectly well what those illustrations represent.
 
2010-08-12 08:53:15 PM
When I take a step back and look at things as a whole I am always surprised at how stupid people are.

/me included
//at least I admit my stupidity
 
2010-08-12 08:57:22 PM
TelJanin: " Honestly though, I think you would find life much more refreshing if you moved somewhere more fun like Sugarhouse or Midway."

Wow. Midway. I actually live there right now. Fun you say? Tell me more.
 
2010-08-12 08:58:21 PM
Apeleutheros: Beccabek: In a religion where "gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose" (from Mormon doctrine, "Family: A proclamation to the world") you'd think there would be some sort of clarification about hermaphrodites. I've NEVER had a clear answer from anyone about them. It's like they plug their ears and pretend they're some sort of urban myth.

I'll answer you. It's a natural problem, meaning genetics or something in the creation of the embryo messed up. Same with retardation or downs or any deformity. No big secret.


That doesn't answer what the LDS church would consider them. Do they have a male soul or a female soul? What do they get to do when they die? Do they get to be the husband or one of a 100 wives? Do they get to breed with themselves to fill a planet with spirit babies?
 
2010-08-12 08:59:56 PM
Dispector: When I take a step back and look at things as a whole I am always surprised at how stupid people are.

/me included
//at least I admit my stupidity


You know, there's truth in the whole 'ignorance is bliss' saying. Life was a -lot- easier when I knew less. Unfortunately, there's no unlearning it once you know just how complicated things are.
 
2010-08-12 09:56:14 PM
I don't care what people want to believe as long as they leave everyone else alone. That whole Prop 8 business? Fark the entire Mormon population with a chainsaw.
 
2010-08-12 09:59:54 PM
Tony Baloney: Ooshatielf: I don't mind mormons too much...but their missionaries are annoying.

Yes, I know we are the only foreigners in a tiny rural town in Japan, and yes, I love God too. But I can talk about other things. I have more than one interest. Every time we meet it's the same spiel...

Can't you talk about anything else?!

/Also read somewhere that you aren't allowed to have oral sex. Not sure if that is true or not.

Definitely NOT true.

You're thinking of marriage.


Definitely true.
 
2010-08-12 10:18:32 PM
If you believe in an Invisible Sky Wizard, then you believe in some crazy crap.

Magic underwear and giving 10% of your income to billionaires so they can build a shopping mall is just more quantifiably crazy.

BYU's 96-97 basketball team; now THAT'S an embarrassment.
 
2010-08-12 10:23:59 PM
Chiad: Apeleutheros: I don't deny it. Like I said - ALMOST all the "reference material" was out of context. Opinions of men have always played a part in the history of the church, as in all churches. It holds no sway on my faith.

Yay! A response! I'll repost this for you also, maybe this has some sway on your faith?

~~
As for you, if you are knowingly part of a hypocritical organization that claims to be the Church of Jesus Christ, a dude who was really against people being hypocrites, then you should be able to figure out for yourself that the church is not, in fact, the one true church of Jesus Christ.


I don't know why you keep going back to that blanket statement, but okay.

People are people - fickle, hypocritical, reactionary and judgmental. Why would human opinion have sway on my faith? You speak as if the views of individual members somehow reflects the official stance of the church, in which you would be wrong. Church MEMBERS can do whatever they want, including supporting whatever political agendas they want, it doesn't mean "The Church" is for it.

The opinion of a few people doesn't constitute an official stance, no matter how "Mormon" they are or how much money they have or how much press they receive.
 
2010-08-12 10:28:37 PM
Anonymocoso:
Magic underwear and giving 10% of your income to billionaires so they can build a shopping mall is just more quantifiably crazy.




Actually, you should look into it. Not 1 cent of tithing is spent on such things. It's all relief efforts and building more churches/temples. Also, The church has no paid clergy.

/carry on with your jibba jabba
 
2010-08-12 10:34:16 PM
Anonymocoso: Tony Baloney: Ooshatielf: I don't mind mormons too much...but their missionaries are annoying.

Yes, I know we are the only foreigners in a tiny rural town in Japan, and yes, I love God too. But I can talk about other things. I have more than one interest. Every time we meet it's the same spiel...

Can't you talk about anything else?!

/Also read somewhere that you aren't allowed to have oral sex. Not sure if that is true or not.

Definitely NOT true.

You're thinking of marriage.

Definitely true.



You found an almost 50 year old and outdated document. You showed us.

Get some new material.
 
2010-08-12 10:53:00 PM
Apeleutheros: Anonymocoso:

/Also read somewhere that you aren't allowed to have oral sex. Not sure if that is true or not.

Definitely NOT true.

You're thinking of marriage.

Definitely true.


You found an almost 50 year old and outdated document. You showed us.

Get some new material.


My mistake. It's from 1982. The date is blurry in the image that I posted the link to.

There's a link to the letter and the 1982 date here. And more material on the oral sex ban for Mormons.
 
2010-08-12 10:56:50 PM
Bartleby the Scrivener: I'd be more into Mormons if they had products like the Quakers, you know, oats and motor oil. maybe something like Mormonade or Moroni-Os.

Dora The Explorer lingerie and My Little Mermaid nursing bras for the 14-year-old wives that polygamist perverts in southern Utah knock up and the Mormon legislature, governor and attorney general do nothing to stop.
 
2010-08-12 11:08:00 PM
You'd think they'd want to distance themselves from this Mormon
farm3.static.flickr.com
but I guess he's distanced himself from his church already.
 
2010-08-12 11:16:48 PM
Apeleutheros: Also, The church has no paid clergy.

"No paid clergy". Comedy Gold!
 
2010-08-12 11:16:50 PM
dbrunker: You'd think they'd want to distance themselves from this Mormon

but I guess he's distanced himself from his church already.


Reid is pretty devout, actually. Pays tithing, does his home teaching, etc.
 
2010-08-12 11:29:10 PM
Lissa is my name:

Oh come on! Barry Gibb? We all know (or should know) that the real Jesus was brown.


In Mormon ward houses that I have been in, Jesus looks like a defensive midfielder from the 1978 Sweden World Cup soccer team.

Jesus could not have been brown, according to Mormons. Well, according to Mormons before they discovered that they needed Polynesians and blacks to play football for BYU

LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said:

Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions impose on them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God, and his murder of Able being a black skin. . . . Noah's son married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood. . . . the negro are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concern. . . . " (Mormon Doctrine, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current ed.;.
 
2010-08-12 11:33:03 PM
Ever heard of a "Dark Mormon"? That's someone who was raised in the church, left as an adult, rejected the theology and embraced debauchery, but retained the values of family, honesty, and fair dealing.

That describes my family and some of my friends.
 
2010-08-12 11:37:31 PM
gadian: My excatholic husband who grew up in Salt Lake suggests that I ask you not-cynical-at-all folks on Fark to explain to me the Book of Abraham "thing". So, uh, whats up with that?

Yet another scam run by child-molesting con man Joseph Short Eyes Smith.
 
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