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(Yahoo)   New Mormon ad campaign attempts to wash away the stain of being associated with polygamists, racists, homophobia, and Twilight   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 483
    More: Unlikely, Mormons, tv ads, homophobia, Brigham Young University, polygamy, Mitts, u.s. cities, intelligent people  
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10894 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Aug 2010 at 3:37 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-08-12 06:38:22 PM  
Schmoppo: Apeleutheros: Schmoppo: gulogulo: Isn't a part of the mormon mythos that Native Americans and Blacks were 'scorched' by God for not following his will, hence their darker skin tones?

You mean the banned mormon video? (new window)

I watched it in full once, during a religion class at catholic school.
! black kid in the class freaked out a little over it.


That video makes me LOL. Not even made by LDS.

Did you bother to notice every researched reference from the Book of Mormon that the video poster left?
Didn't think so.


Dude, that video is old. I've looked at all the references and almost ever one of them are WAAAAAY out of context. The thing was made by the people who made Godmakers, COME ON!
 
2010-08-12 06:39:16 PM  
Any religious person who starts to talk about evidence is missing the point of their religion completely.

It is called a FAITH for a reason. If there was evidence, it would be self evident and would not need FAITH would it?

It would not be religion, it would be a fact of life.

Here is a key message, stop antagonising people by trying to prove your religion is right, if you truly believe in your religion, you should know that you cannot prove it, and know that according to your scriptures, the religion is only for those with FAITH.

FAITH cannot be IMPOSED, it has to be arrived at independently.
 
2010-08-12 06:40:36 PM  
So I says to my friend "The desert religions are like a movie trilogy. The first was the Old Testament, which the Jews think are the only real chapter. Next came the New Testament, which the Christians think are where the story ends. Finally came the Koran, which the Muslims think are the final chapter."

My friend says "How does the Book of Mormon fit into this?"

Me: "That's just fan-fiction."
 
2010-08-12 06:40:37 PM  
Apeleutheros: I'm just saying do it, google it. I'm not even saying it as a Mormon. Look at the non mormon sites listing the evidence. It's interesting if nothing else. No rock that says "JEZUS WAS HERELOL" but there are some very fascinating things out there.

Look, it doesn't do any good when there's very little chance that there was ever a Jesus of Nazareth to begin with. (new window)
 
2010-08-12 06:41:24 PM  
Beccabek: In a religion where "gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose" (from Mormon doctrine, "Family: A proclamation to the world") you'd think there would be some sort of clarification about hermaphrodites. I've NEVER had a clear answer from anyone about them. It's like they plug their ears and pretend they're some sort of urban myth.

I'll answer you. It's a natural problem, meaning genetics or something in the creation of the embryo messed up. Same with retardation or downs or any deformity. No big secret.
 
2010-08-12 06:42:02 PM  
Apeleutheros: Dude, that video is old. I've looked at all the references and almost ever one of them are WAAAAAY out of context. The thing was made by the people who made Godmakers, COME ON!


I'll repost for ya! :D
~~~
While that video is slightly over exaggerated, as a mormon child I was taught that Cain was marked for his sin, and that's why black people were black, and that Laman and Lemuel were marked for their sin, and that's why indians are red. To be fair, the Cain thing was a common belief when Joseph Smith was first making this up, and the Laman and Lemuel thing was just cribbed from that.

Do you deny this is what is taught? I grew up in Salt Lake, in the shadow of the Temple, my uncle is a member of the Seventy. Please deny it so you can spend a few tearful moments praying for forgiveness of your lies. I'm sure you'll forgive yourself, don't worry.
 
2010-08-12 06:44:11 PM  
angelwolf65: angelwolf65: TelJanin:
Gladly. Start here and you might learn something:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_migr.htm

Then go here:
http://www.irr.org/mit/bom-arch-v1.html

There is not one shred of evidence supporting the Book of Mormon, or the lying founder of that faith, Joseph Smith and his gullible followers.


Went to the first and it was just a bunch of people with negative opinions of the church, and findings that people proport that the book isn't true, however, there isn't a single statement by any of the church archeaologists that the evidence isn't there, which was your primary assertion. And no, both links either refer to Matheny, or non-LDS archeologists. Matheny contended for years after the Sunstone conference that his words were taken out of context.

However, I'll listen to D. Kelly Ogden, and his colleagues instead.

But please, I'm not trying to preach here to anyone. Whatever you've chosen, I hope it brings you great happiness. I'm just very content in my religion.
 
2010-08-12 06:46:42 PM  
marsoft: Any religious person who starts to talk about evidence is missing the point of their religion completely.

It is called a FAITH for a reason. If there was evidence, it would be self evident and would not need FAITH would it?

It would not be religion, it would be a fact of life.

Here is a key message, stop antagonising people by trying to prove your religion is right, if you truly believe in your religion, you should know that you cannot prove it, and know that according to your scriptures, the religion is only for those with FAITH.

FAITH cannot be IMPOSED, it has to be arrived at independently.


You are correct, religion is based on faith.
People asked for examples. I didn't IMPOSE anything on anyone. I'm not one of those people.

I also didn't say the evidence is granite and conclusive, it's just evidence that there may have been something there. It's worth a look IMO.

And you're also wrong, it wouldn't be a fact of life if Christ walked into downtown LA or Vegas right now. People would still deny him.
 
2010-08-12 06:46:50 PM  
fushigi: "Nah, you're missing the point."

I understand what your point is. I was making one of my own. Allow room for other peoples' views, dude.

fushigi: "Stick to it being about culture and custom and morality."

On whose authority? Are you a prophet?

fushigi: "Who cares about absolute truth?"

Most people.

fushigi: "There's no margin in it, and sooner or later some wiseguy will always come along and poke things full of holes. So opt out, quit peddling absolute truth, and stick to the places where religion may actually have something to contribute. Cultural identity doesn't depend on whether or not your shared stories are true in a literal sense - metaphorical truth is sufficient."

Self indulgent masturbatory syncretism is not a sufficient replacement for sincere religious beliefs. Not for people who truly believe. You're looking at religion from a utilitarian perspective. What it ought to be, how it could be more productively used. But that's how outsiders see it. Adherents see it as genuinely true.

fushigi: "Neither does morality. Look at the Homeric epics. They present a set of examples about expected behavior, a sense of shared identity. They still shape our customs and culture today. Does it make one bit of difference whether there was ever a literal battle of Troy? Not really, not in the sense of those things."

Not to us, because we don't believe in those gods. But it's more than a little bit myopic to evaluate someone else's religion from an outside point of view and then dictate to them how they ought to believe, and what should be done with their religion.

fushigi: "BUT, if you want to use it in the sense of "I'm always right, you should listen to me because I'm the one with the magic book"...then it matters very much whether or not the contents are literally true."

It matters if you believe sincerely, regardless of what you intend to 'use' the religion for. You're essentially nodding and winking at the Christian, whispering "Listen buddy we both know your religion isn't true, so here's what I think you should do with it so as to be more productive." You'd get a broken jaw if you did that. He knows no such thing; in his mind it's true, and does not merely exist to be used one way or another, so considering it from the utilitarian perspective is an insult.


Now back to my main point which you deftly ignored; Reframing religion in such a way as to accommodate science is, in essence, saying "I will accept the findings of science so long as they can be tweaked a little so that they fit comfortably into this religious narrative." It's like saying that you're only open to considering ideas that mesh neatly with the Lord of the Rings canon.
 
2010-08-12 06:48:56 PM  
marsoft: The way I see it.

Mormons are just normal people, same as Catholics are just normal people and, Hindus, Muslims, Seiks, Satanists and so on.

They are just people in a religion, people outside of the religion may find it strange, but to be honest, I really don't see that most religions are any stranger than others.

The only problem with followers/following any specific religion is that absolute conviction that can happen that your way is right, and everyone else is wrong/evil.

That and messing with science and wanting to say beliefs are as valid as Scientific Theories with massive bodies of evidence to support them.


There is a BIG problem with it, because they aren't content to have their ridiculous laws and fairy tales apply only to them. No, they try and impose them on everybody else. As I pointed out, the Mormons gave 20 million bucks (and LIED about it) to pass anti-gay laws in California, because they imagined God or Joseph Smith or whoever the fark it is they worship told them being gay was evil. They (and other religious nuts) use their money and brainwashed followers to pass all kinds of "morals" legislation that involve things they don't like. Can't buy booze on Sunday? Blame religion. Gays can't get married? Blame religion. As if that weren't bad enough, they try and force schools to teach their mythology along side (or in place of) science, as if some fairy tale about "Creationism" somehow had the same (or any, really) validity as the fossil record. The Mormons are especially creepy because they pretend Jesus came to America. How do they know this? Their founded saw this in a crystal ball and read it on magic golden plates (I am NOT making this up.)
 
2010-08-12 06:49:22 PM  
Apeleutheros: Schmoppo: Apeleutheros: Schmoppo: gulogulo: Isn't a part of the mormon mythos that Native Americans and Blacks were 'scorched' by God for not following his will, hence their darker skin tones?

You mean the banned mormon video? (new window)

I watched it in full once, during a religion class at catholic school.
! black kid in the class freaked out a little over it.


That video makes me LOL. Not even made by LDS.

Did you bother to notice every researched reference from the Book of Mormon that the video poster left?
Didn't think so.

Dude, that video is old. I've looked at all the references and almost ever one of them are WAAAAAY out of context. The thing was made by the people who made Godmakers, COME ON!


Yeah, well you believe a dude stuck his face in a hat with a rock, the rock told him what to say and that his word is truth. I just stuck my face in a hat with a rock and the rock told me you are a sexist, racist, homophobe that believes in bullshiat. I'm pretty sure my rock is right.
 
2010-08-12 06:51:15 PM  
TelJanin: I'm just very content in my religion.

I used to respect the Mormons until the Prop 8 thing.
Couldn't that money have been used to help the needy?
 
2010-08-12 06:51:39 PM  
Kung_Fu_Hamster: TelJanin: Really, honestly though, I think that Farkers are pretty dumb for passing up a wonderful opportunity.

All Farkers understand Drew's affinity for booze. So, someone throws a Fark party, we all show up, pony up for booze and drink a coke/pepsi product, Drew, and any other Farker that accompanies him would get smashed out of their gourd for next to nothing. I mean, imagine it, yards of alcohol with no one to partake...

I'll just leave that there...

Beer in Utah is maxed out at 3% abv by law.


really? weak.
 
2010-08-12 06:52:12 PM  
TelJanin: ChrisSuperstar: Nice try, douchebags. These farkers gave 20 million bucks to oppose gay rights in California, and then lied about it. Up until the 80's they wouldn't allow black clergy. They hate booze, caffeine, and force their children to spend years away on "missions." No tacky feel-good advertisement is going to make this ridiculous cult appealing, sorry.

No one forced me to serve a mission. Not at all, no coersion, no force, no peer pressure, was 100% my choice and my money.

ambercricket: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Hey! Be Mormon! You can't drink or smoke, and we edit down PG movies to make them G, but, at least you can...um...well...

...procreate through a sheet with a hole in it.

(seriously)

Blatantly a lie, unless you refer to a fundamental sect. There is no governance or restriction in our religion to bedroom activities beyond no one is abused, humiliated, harmed, and it's between man and wife.


Oh, ok. So you volunteered to go on a mission. But the part about them hating gays/blacks/caffeine/booze/etc is true, then? I guess that makes it all better. Nice try.
 
2010-08-12 06:53:26 PM  
TelJanin: ChrisS

Oh, and don't forget the magic underwear! That's right, if you wear the magic underwear you can't be harmed by bullets or poison. Wonder how that's working out for them......
 
2010-08-12 06:53:29 PM  
Most Mormons I know are decent people. Because most folks are fair decent, no matter their denomination. Yes, even Catholics and Southern Baptists and even Pagans. The problem lies in using your religion to justify treating folks against the very tenets that you place yourself behind. That goes for Buddhists to Muslims to Baptists. When you have a solid leadership and organized machine for making pronouncements, it becomes more problematic. Individuals should be held accountable, but that goes for those with official standing as well as the rank and file. Yes, I'm looking at you Pope Benedict too.
 
2010-08-12 06:53:29 PM  
Apeleutheros: And you're also wrong, it wouldn't be a fact of life if Christ walked into downtown LA or Vegas right now. People would still deny him.

I can agree people would be suspicious and ask for proof, however, if such a being existed and was what he claimed, and FAITH was not supposed to be important.

I am certain such a being could certainly demonstrate to the standards required by science the truth of his claims.

If such a being existed and FAITH was not an issue, he could certainly in controlled experiments transmute matter, and turn water into wine.

Such results would be completely conclusive and render the whole debate redundent.

Only people of FAITH would deny that sort of evidence, just as they deny scientific evidence and demonstrations of correctness today.

In this scenario, denying Jesus would be like denying the sun comes up every morning.

As I said it is about FAITH, and that is a personal thing. It can be, and often is wrong to the world, but if that person is happy with it, and does not project it onto others, who cares?
 
2010-08-12 06:54:31 PM  
Chiad: Apeleutheros: Dude, that video is old. I've looked at all the references and almost ever one of them are WAAAAAY out of context. The thing was made by the people who made Godmakers, COME ON!


I'll repost for ya! :D
~~~
While that video is slightly over exaggerated, as a mormon child I was taught that Cain was marked for his sin, and that's why black people were black, and that Laman and Lemuel were marked for their sin, and that's why indians are red. To be fair, the Cain thing was a common belief when Joseph Smith was first making this up, and the Laman and Lemuel thing was just cribbed from that.

Do you deny this is what is taught? I grew up in Salt Lake, in the shadow of the Temple, my uncle is a member of the Seventy. Please deny it so you can spend a few tearful moments praying for forgiveness of your lies. I'm sure you'll forgive yourself, don't worry.



I don't deny it. Like I said - ALMOST all the "reference material" was out of context. Opinions of men have always played a part in the history of the church, as in all churches. It holds no sway on my faith.
 
2010-08-12 06:55:56 PM  
ChrisSuperstar: There is a BIG problem with it, because they aren't content to have their ridiculous laws and fairy tales apply only to them. No, they try and impose them on everybody else.

So their crime then is that they are the same as every other religion out there?
 
2010-08-12 06:56:08 PM  
Chiad:

I'll repost for ya! :D
~~~
While that video is slightly over exaggerated, as a mormon child I was taught that Cain was marked for his sin, and that's why black people were black, and that Laman and Lemuel were marked for their sin, and that's why indians are red. To be fair, the Cain thing was a common belief when Joseph Smith was first making this up, and the Laman and Lemuel thing was just cribbed from that.

Do you deny this is what is taught? I grew up in Salt Lake, in the shadow of the Temple, my uncle is a member of the Seventy. Please deny it so you can spend a few tearful moments praying for forgiveness of your lies. I'm sure you'll forgive yourself, don't worry.


Growing up in Salt Lake means being exposed to Mormon culture as much as Mormon doctrine. Just because someone shared that as a spiritual thought at some meeting you attended in the seventies does not mean this was official church doctrine. It's like when people bring up the list of famous people who are secretly Mormon. I do deny that this is what's being taught.
 
2010-08-12 06:56:40 PM  
zaier: Apeleutheros: Schmoppo: Apeleutheros: Schmoppo: gulogulo: Isn't a part of the mormon mythos that Native Americans and Blacks were 'scorched' by God for not following his will, hence their darker skin tones?

You mean the banned mormon video? (new window)

I watched it in full once, during a religion class at catholic school.
! black kid in the class freaked out a little over it.


That video makes me LOL. Not even made by LDS.

Did you bother to notice every researched reference from the Book of Mormon that the video poster left?
Didn't think so.

Dude, that video is old. I've looked at all the references and almost ever one of them are WAAAAAY out of context. The thing was made by the people who made Godmakers, COME ON!

Yeah, well you believe a dude stuck his face in a hat with a rock, the rock told him what to say and that his word is truth. I just stuck my face in a hat with a rock and the rock told me you are a sexist, racist, homophobe that believes in bullshiat. I'm pretty sure my rock is right.



I think you should start a church.
 
2010-08-12 06:56:47 PM  
Apeleutheros: I don't deny it. Like I said - ALMOST all the "reference material" was out of context. Opinions of men have always played a part in the history of the church, as in all churches. It holds no sway on my faith.

Yay! A response! I'll repost this for you also, maybe this has some sway on your faith?

~~
As for you, if you are knowingly part of a hypocritical organization that claims to be the Church of Jesus Christ, a dude who was really against people being hypocrites, then you should be able to figure out for yourself that the church is not, in fact, the one true church of Jesus Christ.
 
2010-08-12 06:57:03 PM  
I am a born and raised Christian, though I am not really that proud to admit that many times these days. Not because of my personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ, or the Bible or God... but because there are too many wacky Christians out there who give us "some-what" normal Christians a bad name.

I live in Kansas City, and there is an area downtown called the Plaza (a cool place for a romantic horse carriage rides, great shops and a ton of great fountains) and when you go there on a Friday or Saturday night you will encounter the guy I affectionately call, "the plaza preacher". This guy is a piece of work to say the least. He is a megaphone preacher guy. He condemns everyone to a hot hell and has the huge sign to promote that beautiful message of hope and love for those who are lost.

This is one of many reasons I am finding it difficult to "like" Christians. Yes, I of course in reality love Christians, shoot I am one! This is just my way to VENT my frustration over the Pharisee type Christian who violates the John 8 scripture where Jesus has a women caught in adultery thrown at His feet to judge. And if you know the story, Jesus of course DOES NOT judge her to a hot hell. But He does address those Pharisees who brought her to Him to judge by saying, "ye without sin cast the first stone." Thank God that didn't happen today, because I truly believe some Christians would be throwing stones. And that my friends is what bites my tail! Christians who think they stand in the position as Jesus... perfect and able to cast stones.

The interesting thing about Jesus was that HE was perfect and had the right to cast a stone, yet He did not! And He is the ONLY one who could have done so, and been justified.

I also hear people say to me that we're trying too hard to reach the lost! ( I am laughing here)... hello, ahhhh yes we are! And that is a problem why?

Jesus was mocked as a wine bibber... so we are in good company! The key in my opinion is to be IN the world and not OF it. I can be right in the middle of a whore house, but do not have to pay for their services. But some Christians do not look at it that way... and the reality is.... That is fine... for them. But not for me! I can not ONLY live my life in the little Christian culture only hanging out with nice Republican voting, Christian music listening, non-tattoed, suit-wearing people. I am sorry, I just can't live my life like that, then die and face Jesus and have Him look me in the face and ask... "who'd you show my love too?" Oh no! I would feel like that dude who buried his talent and when the master came to collect he dug it up and gave it back... and the master said, "you wicked servant!"

I believe you can be in the culture and not of it so to speak. I do not have to smoke pot to reach a pot smoker! I do not have to be an adulterer to reach an adulterer. But to reach anyone WE must LOVE as Jesus loved!
If you are reading this and you are not a Jesus follower... can I just say I am so sorry for the way we Christians have portrayed Christianity! I hope to change that so that people can get a true taste of the Gospel that Jesus preached... a gospel of love and hope!

On the other hand if you are a Christ follower please be like Jesus... please love all people, even when you feel they are "violating" the Bible. Love is what leads people to faith... "faith works by love" the bible says!

Live for Jesus!
 
2010-08-12 06:59:33 PM  
Chiad:

I'll repost for ya! :D
~~~
While that video is slightly over exaggerated, as a mormon child I was taught that Cain was marked for his sin, and that's why black people were black, and that Laman and Lemuel were marked for their sin, and that's why indians are red. To be fair, the Cain thing was a common belief when Joseph Smith was first making this up, and the Laman and Lemuel thing was just cribbed from that.

Do you deny this is what is taught? I grew up in Salt Lake, in the shadow of the Temple, my uncle is a member of the Seventy. Please deny it so you can spend a few tearful moments praying for forgiveness of your lies. I'm sure you'll forgive yourself, don't worry.


Chaid, I'll step up. No, the mark of Cain was something so telling that no one would kill him so that they didn't reap the wrath of God. The one you're looking for is Ham, father of Canaan, who uncovered his fathers Nakedness. Bruce McConkie taught that blacks were decendants of Ham through Caanan.

And yes, Lamanites were cursed with a dark skin to stand as a warning to any Nephite, who were fair and beautiful (meaning light skinned) The book of mormon is clear on that.

I need to clarify that Brother McConkie wasn't ever the prophet of the church, and many of his writings are at the very least contriversial, and I don't proscribe to many of the council's given in his book.
 
2010-08-12 06:59:35 PM  
www.affirmation.org
 
2010-08-12 07:00:28 PM  
Apeleutheros: Beccabek: In a religion where "gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose" (from Mormon doctrine, "Family: A proclamation to the world") you'd think there would be some sort of clarification about hermaphrodites. I've NEVER had a clear answer from anyone about them. It's like they plug their ears and pretend they're some sort of urban myth.

I'll answer you. It's a natural problem, meaning genetics or something in the creation of the embryo messed up. Same with retardation or downs or any deformity. No big secret.


Um, yeah, I know that much. My question is to Mormons about the "eternal destiny and purpose" of a hermaphrodite.
 
2010-08-12 07:01:01 PM  
beije: Growing up in Salt Lake means being exposed to Mormon culture as much as Mormon doctrine. Just because someone shared that as a spiritual thought at some meeting you attended in the seventies does not mean this was official church doctrine. It's like when people bring up the list of famous people who are secretly Mormon. I do deny that this is what's being taught.

I wasn't born in the 70s. That is what is taught. The other mormons in this thread don't deny it. Maybe you haven't read the book of mormon and Doctrine and Covenants thoroughly enough.
 
2010-08-12 07:01:47 PM  
TelJanin: I'm just very content in my religion.

www.planetmarkus.com
So, when you speak your faith, you know it's a lie.

2.bp.blogspot.com
You know the history you teach is a lie.

www.mormonmissionprep.com
And you know you're religion was founded on lies...

but you are content? Good for you!
 
2010-08-12 07:04:11 PM  
I know lots of Mormons and yes, they are a bit weird. Any body who goes to church all day Sunday and to church related activities nearly everyday of the week is weird by me.
 
2010-08-12 07:04:28 PM  
Jesus is standing at a scene of execution of an adulteress. He immediately stands over her, and says "Ye who are without sin, cast the first stone!"
Suddenly a rock flies, and hits Jesus on the back of the head. He turns to see who it is, then shouts out "Dammit, Mom, if you're going to come to these things, at least learn to throw!"
 
2010-08-12 07:06:33 PM  
TelJanin: Chaid, I'll step up. No, the mark of Cain was something so telling that no one would kill him so that they didn't reap the wrath of God. The one you're looking for is Ham, father of Canaan, who uncovered his fathers Nakedness. Bruce McConkie taught that blacks were decendants of Ham through Caanan.

And yes, Lamanites were cursed with a dark skin to stand as a warning to any Nephite, who were fair and beautiful (meaning light skinned) The book of mormon is clear on that.

I need to clarify that Brother McConkie wasn't ever the prophet of the church, and many of his writings are at the very least contriversial, and I don't proscribe to many of the council's given in his book.


Words, the central point of those words being that wicked people and their descendants have been marked with dark skin so we know the sins of their fathers (and don't have to feel bad about them getting a bum rap).
 
2010-08-12 07:07:05 PM  
Without Fail: TelJanin: I'm just very content in my religion.

I used to respect the Mormons until the Prop 8 thing.
Couldn't that money have been used to help the needy?


ChrisSuperstar: TelJanin: ChrisSuperstar: Nice try, douchebags. These farkers gave 20 million bucks to oppose gay rights in California, and then lied about it. Up until the 80's they wouldn't allow black clergy. They hate booze, caffeine, and force their children to spend years away on "missions." No tacky feel-good advertisement is going to make this ridiculous cult appealing, sorry.

No one forced me to serve a mission. Not at all, no coersion, no force, no peer pressure, was 100% my choice and my money.

ambercricket: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Hey! Be Mormon! You can't drink or smoke, and we edit down PG movies to make them G, but, at least you can...um...well...

...procreate through a sheet with a hole in it.

(seriously)

Blatantly a lie, unless you refer to a fundamental sect. There is no governance or restriction in our religion to bedroom activities beyond no one is abused, humiliated, harmed, and it's between man and wife.

Oh, ok. So you volunteered to go on a mission. But the part about them hating gays/blacks/caffeine/booze/etc is true, then? I guess that makes it all better. Nice try.


There's nothing in any doctrine anywhere that says we hate caffeine. Alcohol is addictive, so we're advised to avoid it. We do not exclude blacks from any of our activities, and indeed, I've met and spent time with some black members of the church leadership (they're awesome, by the way). Gays fall into our church just like anyone and everyone. Keep the law of chastity and you can participate as much as you desire. I see no hatred there.

ChrisSuperstar: TelJanin: ChrisS

Oh, and don't forget the magic underwear! That's right, if you wear the magic underwear you can't be harmed by bullets or poison. Wonder how that's working out for them......


I'm really amazed at the amount of venom. Whatever was done to you personally, I'm sorry, and I sincerely hope that you can forgive us of whatever offense we offered.
 
2010-08-12 07:08:20 PM  
Tawnos
Look, it doesn't do any good when there's very little chance that there was ever a Jesus of Nazareth to begin with. (new window)

Since I took a pot shot at pro-Christ "evidence" I should be fair and do the same for anti-Christ sources:

Not that it's a great source of facts, but the Wikipedia entry (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Earl_Doherty) for Mr. Doherty says:

"Although Doherty's treatment of the issue has made no impact on scholarly debate"

Quoting Doherty is like quoting a source that says the Michigan tablets prove Christ was in America. No scholarly support. His latest revision was self-published. That's usually not a sign of quality scholarly review.

/Believe what you believe, but don't get offended if someone offers evidence showing what you believe isn't true.
//Offer doesn't apply to L. Ron Hubbard.
 
2010-08-12 07:08:27 PM  
NephilimNexus: So I says to my friend "The desert religions are like a movie trilogy. The first was the Old Testament, which the Jews think are the only real chapter. Next came the New Testament, which the Christians think are where the story ends. Finally came the Koran, which the Muslims think are the final chapter."

My friend says "How does the Book of Mormon fit into this?"

Me: "That's just fan-fiction."


gold
 
2010-08-12 07:09:03 PM  
Apeleutheros: I think you should start a church.

Yeah, it is really too bad that my morals won't allow me to lie and swindle large groups of people like Joseph Smith's lack of morals allow him to. Just think of all those strictly enforced tithes I could get!
 
2010-08-12 07:09:14 PM  
TelJanin: I'm really amazed at the amount of venom. Whatever was done to you personally, I'm sorry, and I sincerely hope that you can forgive us of whatever offense we offered.

Before you can be forgiven you must repent of your sins. The LDS Church's sin is Bigotry. You were given a mulligan with the blacks getting the priesthood thing. That you are doing it again over the gays shows you have not repented.

Repent, and your sins will be forgiven.
 
2010-08-12 07:11:03 PM  
Corn_Fed: Individual mormons I've known have mostly been very nice people. Contrary to these ads, this is not about individual people. It is about the activities and priorities of the church leadership, and how they direct their masses of followers.

j.imagehost.org

Religious people, for the most part, are nice and decent and just want to get along with others.

Religious leaders, for the most part, are vile, hate-spewing hypocrites who ceaselessly work to inflict as much misery as they can upon others because they despise everything in the world that's outside their control.
 
2010-08-12 07:13:14 PM  
tinyarena: TelJanin: I'm just very content in my religion.

So, when you speak your faith, you know it's a lie.

You know the history you teach is a lie.

And you know you're religion was founded on lies...

but you are content? Good for you!


Sorry, I'm not sure what the images are supposed to represent inthe context that you use them, however, yes, I honestly and sincerely feel that I've recieved a very personal answer to my prayers, and I know for myself that my beliefs are true.

Chaid,

I can't directly point to the origination of hypocracy, however, I know that in my life I try to avoid it as much as I can, with the caveat that I do make a ton of mistakes.
 
2010-08-12 07:13:27 PM  
My excatholic husband who grew up in Salt Lake suggests that I ask you not-cynical-at-all folks on Fark to explain to me the Book of Abraham "thing". So, uh, whats up with that?
 
2010-08-12 07:15:46 PM  
Reading all this is making me wish I had some fry sauce.
 
2010-08-12 07:16:39 PM  
Chiad: TelJanin: I'm really amazed at the amount of venom. Whatever was done to you personally, I'm sorry, and I sincerely hope that you can forgive us of whatever offense we offered.

Before you can be forgiven you must repent of your sins. The LDS Church's sin is Bigotry. You were given a mulligan with the blacks getting the priesthood thing. That you are doing it again over the gays shows you have not repented.

Repent, and your sins will be forgiven.


Chaid, I wish you knew me well enough to believe me when I assure you that I will repent for my misdeeds for the remainder of my life. However, when it comes back to prop 8, all I can do is try to live as selflessly as possible, and maybe later I'll understand the exact why of the situation.

However, if I were to start, I would probably go all the way back to no-fault divorces (irreconcileable differences, etc..)
 
2010-08-12 07:17:12 PM  
hauoli_akua: tarkus1980: Apeleutheros: grizzlyjohnson: Apeleutheros: You are correct though, most 19 year old guys have no idea where they'd like to serve, they just announce their willingness and then go where they are called.

But if you have pull in the church you can get your kid posted to Hawaii or France.

I'm sure it happens. It's big (huge) organization.
I'll bet those people can still do great things is Hawaii or France.

Dude, France is not a desirable mission. I've known a few people who served in France, and none of them had a happy experience with it.

Can't speak for Hawaii.

I served in Hawaii. It was a mission.
Had a friend serve in France.
We both renormalized pretty quickly.


Renormalized double plus ungood
Reindoctrinated double plus good.
 
2010-08-12 07:18:21 PM  
TelJanin: Chaid,

I can't directly point to the origination of hypocracy, however, I know that in my life I try to avoid it as much as I can, with the caveat that I do make a ton of mistakes.


That's a wonderful goal which I laud you for. One way you can avoid such hypocrisy is by not providing material support to an organization that is absolutely not showing love one to another, and therefore is not the one true church of Jesus Christ, by the standard that Jesus Christ set, at least, if you put any stock in that.
 
2010-08-12 07:18:23 PM  
Zamboro:Now back to my main point which you deftly ignored/i>

Dude, you'd have a much better time making your points if you didn't totally misconstrue mine and then decide to quote off it.

Also, Fuller, triple bonus score for the Orgasmo screencap. ;)
 
2010-08-12 07:19:00 PM  
huntercr: Reading all this is making me wish I had some fry sauce.

Damnit! The only thing I miss about Utah and you had to remind me!
 
2010-08-12 07:19:19 PM  
Apeleutheros: tinyarena: Everything I Needed to Know About Mormonism

I learned at the Visitors Center adjacent to the temple in Salt Lake City. The tour guide took us along and explained the HUGE murals on the walls. Murals of people and places that never existed. We know these places never existed because there is absolutely no archeological or anthropological evidence for them.

I was about to chuckle, but first I glanced around me. I was surrounded by people who were all nodding and smiling contentedly as the guide explained the roots of their faith.

It was a Twilight Zone kinda moment for me.


You should internet Christ in the Americas.
You would be surprised at the evidence there is.


The HD-Videos of Jesus riding that velociraptor through a Amerind lacrosse game is what sold me.
 
2010-08-12 07:23:03 PM  
zaier: Apeleutheros: I think you should start a church.

Yeah, it is really too bad that my morals won't allow me to lie and swindle large groups of people like Joseph Smith's lack of morals allow him to. Just think of all those strictly enforced tithes I could get!


I frequently lament the same thing. Human stupidity appears to be a nearly unending resource for anyone who's enough of a bastard to exploit it.
 
2010-08-12 07:23:17 PM  
TelJanin: Chaid, I wish you knew me well enough to believe me when I assure you that I will repent for my misdeeds for the remainder of my life. However, when it comes back to prop 8, all I can do is try to live as selflessly as possible, and maybe later I'll understand the exact why of the situation.

However, if I were to start, I would probably go all the way back to no-fault divorces (irreconcileable differences, etc..)


Reposting to explain why the church's stance on Prop 8 is blatant hypocrisy:

~~
the mormon church is specifically hypocritical in action as a body, in that they still preach polygamy will be practiced in heaven, and after a long and bitter fight to be allowed to practice polygamy (which I believe they should have been) they turn around and try to enforce the same marriage restrictions on gays that were brought against themselves.

Instead the mormon church should have championed the right to gay marriage and further argued that any consenting adults should be able to enter into a marriage, leading towards the legalization of polygamy and the reunification of the church. This would put them on the right side of the argument as far as civil rights go (for once) AND allow them to reunify beliefs with practices once again.
 
2010-08-12 07:30:11 PM  
MausIII: "I am a born and raised Christian, though I am not really that proud to admit that many times these days. Not because of my personal faith and trust in Jesus Christ, or the Bible or God... but because there are too many wacky Christians out there who give us "some-what" normal Christians a bad name."

I don't think that's it. There's this weird, prevalent assumption among moderate Christians that the only reason Christianity is declining is because non-Christians are somehow mistaking them for fundamentalists. As if we're too stupid to tell them apart. Or not to judge the moderates for the stuff that the fundies do.

The rationale is a lot deeper than that. The underlying beef I have with Christianity is that it's one of a number of religions which promote faith as virtuous. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence, or in spite of evidence to the contrary. It is blind by definition. There is no such thing as non-blind faith, as evidence is the analogous equivalent of sight for this metaphor, and if there's supporting evidence then it's not faith.

Empiricism affirms the necessity of supporting claims with evidence. As faith denies that necessity, the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Moderates hate the idea as most are fairly bright and have as deep an appreciation for science as any atheist. They love science, they love their religion, and the idea of their religion supported by the legitimacy and authority of science is incredibly appealing to them. So much so that they are vigorously resistant to the fact that it's not the case. As science is built upon empiricism, any religion built on faith is, at the root, incompatible with it. It's possible to rationalize the content of a religion in such a way as to avoid contradicting scientific findings, but the epistemological foundation of your religion (how it claims to know what it knows) will still directly contradict the epistemological foundation of science.

Why does this matter? Moderates are fond of pointing out that religion is not the only thing that motivates war and atrocities. They've also been motivated in the past by political ideologies, economic ideologies, tribalism/ethnic hatred and so on. But these all share a commonality; in every case where they've been used to motivate crimes against humanity, faith was used. Communist supporters and soldiers had faith in absolutely ludicrous claims made by The Party; that a worker's paradise lay just around the corner if they were only willing to make certain sacrifices to reach it. That their leaders had seemingly superhuman abilities (look up the nonsense North Koreans are taught to believe about Kim Jong Il for instance.) Core Nazi ideology involved claims that plainly contradicted even well understood archaeological truths of that period; that the German people as well as all scandinavians were descended from an ancient race of Aryans, themselves descendants of Thulians, known to the ancient Greeks as "Hyperboreans" (meaning those who live beyond the north wind.)

The list goes on. A prerequisite for ordinary people to be recruited by madmen and convinced that mass murder is virtuous is for them to abandon critical thought. Every murderous regime in history has relied upon the popularization of unreason and the suppression of skepticism:

"We stand at the end of the Age of Reason. A new era of the magical explanation of the world is rising."

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people."

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

"Ideas are far more powerful than guns. We don't allow our enemies to have guns, why should we allow them to have ideas?"


In order to get decent, ordinary people to murder their neighbors you have to drastically re-order their worldview. Critical thought is a barrier to such efforts because it acts as a sort of filter, like your computer's antivirus software, which discriminates between benign and malicious code. Likewise a reasoning mind carefully considers incoming ideas and weighs them against the available evidence rather than taking them on faith. Faith acts as a sort of back door, a way to bypass that filter and get unsupported ideas into people's heads. Sometimes these ideas are harmless, perpetuated for no reason other than that they are comforting and compelling (the notion of an afterlife, of souls and whatnot) but often they are malicious ideas spread with a specific agenda; turning large numbers of people against a particular minority group for instance.

Faith makes it much easier to motivate large numbers of people to behave charitably, to organize them towards benign ends. But for the same reason that it makes it easier to organize them towards malicious ends. We would perhaps have a less charitable population if we were to think critically as a matter of habit, but we'd also have a less irrational, barbarous population. The extremes, both positive and negative, would be flattened out I think. With faith de-legitimized, the single most useful tool in the would-be tyrant's arsenal will have been disabled. A thinking, reasoning, skeptical populace is much harder to talk into believing or doing anything that hasn't been sufficiently justified with good evidence, and that makes us all quite a bit safer.
 
2010-08-12 07:32:19 PM  
fushigi: "Dude, you'd have a much better time making your points if you didn't totally misconstrue mine and then decide to quote off it."

I don't think you're able to recognize your own position when it's described unflatteringly.
 
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