Apeleutheros Weddings don't happen in the Temple. Sealings do.

Which is the LDS version of a wedding, is it not? Many of my LDS friends have explained this to me. They don't say any wedding vows outside of the temple. The wedding day IS the day at the temple. Isn't that what all of the good little girls are taught? That someday they'll find a good returned missionary and get married in the temple?

When pressed about this, my LDS friends said that sometimes for non-LDS family members, a side "Ring Ceremony" will be held, but it's meanlingless and both bishops and family members pressure them to not do anything but the temple sealing because it's the only thing that matters.

Also, anyone can come into the Temple, you just have to be a member in good standing.

As I said - "families are forever"... but only if you're LDS.

elemenopy: Turns out her daughter was getting married in the temple - converted to the church, and because she wasn't a member, she wasn't allowed at her own daughter's wedding. Her only child. The horror and pain on her face told me everything I need to know about their claims of "families are forever."

That apparently only applies if the family is LDS.

Thems the rules. I didn't witness my brothers wedding for the same reason. Usually they have a big reception afterwords for everybody.

Also, I have to call B.S. because most people wouldn't just walk by temple stairs on their way home.

rickythepenguin: s

Dish is based out of Englewood, Colorado.

The first 3 aren't nearly as bad compared to the last, seeing as how common the first 3 practices were throughout the ages.

And yet we have to thank the 2000s for stupid irritating vampires.

Please, PLEASE don't think Mormons are "okay".

They are if in tiny doses, or as part of a larger collective.

Move to Utah as a non-mormon for a year or two, try to get a job, realize that if you're not A)Male, and B)Mormon, you do not get to have a job. They actually talk during Stake Meetings about how to get each other jobs at their company, like some awful High School Clique that never ends! Women are kept barefoot & pregnant from age 18 on, and they're happy to be so. The more independent female "freaks" are paid quite a bit less if they do make it into the workforce, and treated very differently.

The entire state is ruled by the church, whether on purpose (ala the inability to sell alcohol most anywhere) or through social discourses (The neighbors are watching you at all times, and are going to tattle to god if you're not good).

The entire state of Utah is a few centuries behind everyone else. Don't let them fool you into believing they're "Normal".

/ Took me 29 years to finally get out
// Anywhere is better than there.
/// Except maybe Missouri

FuryOfFirestorm: Some of the most famous Mormons are Glenn Beck, Stephanie Meyer, The Osmonds and Mitt Romney. Sign me up! (Then shoot me in the face).

You forgot Harry Reid. *sigh*

Cozret: Apeleutheros:Also, anyone can come into the Temple, you just have to be a member in good standing. No secret agenda.

You have a strange definition of "Everyone."

Not everyone, ANYONE. Big difference.

ophilye: /// Except maybe Missouri

only if that new stip club law stands.

Apeleutheros: Cozret: Apeleutheros:Also, anyone can come into the Temple, you just have to be a member in good standing. No secret agenda.

You have a strange definition of "Everyone."

Not everyone, ANYONE. Big difference.

I think he was commenting on your caveat that you had to be a member. So it isn't anyone, really, it's any member.

I have somewhat of a morbid fascination with the Mormom religion. I find it fascinating to study the history and how it came to be.

Yes, the sealing is essentially the mormon wedding as elemenopy said. That makes you a forever family, and is the key to the celestial kingdom.

Some of the crazier things are the Masonic similiarities in the Temple ceremony, and Joseph Smith just happened to be a Mason.

Also, I think it is ridiculous they have "tithing settlements" at the end of every year to make sure you are paying your full 10%. No other church I know does this.

I also have a problem that the Mormon's do not disclose there finances like EVERY OTHER CHURCH and non-profit is required to do. This is a major red flag to me.

rickythepenguin: hauoli_akua: Dish is based out of Englewood, Colorado.


oh shiat. well ffark. there went that theory. i could have sworn they were our of Utah.

well still. I guess Colorado is the freak that is way into itnerracial porn. I mean, nothing against that, but.....every other movie?

there are still a lot of Mormons in Colorado, so I say your theory still has merit.

Mr. Coffee Nerves
Hey! Be Mormon! You can't drink or smoke, and we edit down PG movies to make them G, but, at least you can...um...well...

Don't forget to wear your Holy foundation garments.

/was a Mormon until I realized I as a Mormon. I stopped being one at about 13 yrs of age ( along time ago).
//All they want is your money and every f*cking waking moment of your life for brain-washing.

nekom:
Each of the individual members pay taxes. I just fail to see a problem with any group of people wanting to advance their own agenda. And I don't think outside of prop 8 that churches have been at all effective in influencing policy, though perhaps in persuading their flock to vote a certain way.

Yes, but those individuals are then donating their money to a tax-exempt organization (the church) and getting a tax deduction for the money they donate, so therefore the money being used by the church is not taxed. If those individuals were just pooling their own money and not getting any special tax considerations, then that would be fine. Prop 8 alone should be enough reason to revoke their tax-exempt status, and your failure to see the problem does not mean it doesn't exist.

As I said - "families are forever"... but only if you're LDS.

The girl getting married obviously didn't understand what the sealing ceremony is about, or what it actually means.
Neither did her mom.
Neither do you.

Rawry: soup: Rawry: soup: nekom: soup: One other thing... how can it be that Joeseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, had multiple wives and fully endorsed plural marriage (aka spiritual wifery, lol) but if you follow his lead now, you're outcast from the mainstream LDS? The LDS does still consider Smith their founder, right? So if he were alive today with multiple wives, would they kick him out of the church?

Part of the teachings of the Mormon church is that one must respect the laws of the land. That means no polygamy.

Uh, lol? That's a joke, right?

You know a huge part of Mormon history is defiance against the U.S. Government? The reason they're based out in the middle of Utah is because they kept getting chased out town by "gentiles."

My question was pretty much rhetorical, anyway. If the mainstream LDS didn't condemn polygamy, there's no way the Feds would have let them continue to practice in peace. So they had to abandon "spiritual wifery" for the good of the religion even though it was one of the basic tenets of Mormonism set forth by their prophet.

You are misinformed, instead of 'basic tenent', you should have said 'most sensational characteristic'.

Mormonism, originated in the 1820s. The earliest reports say Smith began teaching a polygamy doctrine as early as 1831. This was met with great opposistion within the church and was never fully endorsed by every member.

You're right, it wasn't endorsed by every member. And it also wasn't one of his original teachings.

But can you deny that the founder and prophet, Joeseph Smith, did indeed practice polygamy? And that he saw it as a necessary activity in order to get into heaven? If you can't deny that, then what does it matter that it wasn't "fully endorsed by every member?" I mean, he's the founder and prophet, right? Whatever he claims God told him should be 100% the word of his religion. You either accept everything he says, or you accept none of it. There's really no room for compromise here.

Uhm, no. Actually if you read history you would know that opposition within the Church against his ideas, especially polygamy, was one of the main reason's for the murder of Joseph Smith, Jr. He was killed by opposing mormons. Keep in mind he was considered a prophet, it's okay to disagree with them.

Wut?

So, wait what? It's ok to disagree with the founder of your religion? The one that God spoke with, through Moroni? The one whom without, there would be no Mormonism? **head explodes**

As a mormom, I'd also like to apologize profusely for Twilight. She didn't mention anything like that in any of the meetings.

Looks like those that don't mind us got in their comments and bailed, and we have remaining some people that are very angry with us.

Grizzly, yeah, it sounds like you're living in Utah Valley, and as one human being to another, this place wierds even me out. I get in debates all the time, however the debates don't last long, because it's so easy to prove these people who abuse their positions wrong. Honestly though, I think you would find life much more refreshing if you moved somewhere more fun like Sugarhouse or Midway. Still, I'm sorry if the nutjobs here cause you grief. If you ever want a free compensatory lunch, I'll meet you at La Costa Vida of your choice and buy you a delicious salad!

I'd have less of a problem with Mormans if they hadn't gotten in my wife's face about not converting.

The first group was nice enough, and she let them know she just want to hear from them what the religion was about and had told them from the beginning she wasn't going to convert or pray with them.

She sat through all 6 sales pitches (be honest, that's what they are), asked them to clarify some of what she had researched on her own, asked why the book of Mormon was written like a translated gospel and not in the literary prose common to the day and age it was written. She didn't convert, and lo, they were confused, but thanked her for her time and never came back.

The second group refused to leave our doorstep and got angry with her when she told them she had already sat through the 6 sessions and had no intention of becoming Mormon. I got a worried phone call at work from her after they finally left. Thanks to one of these threads we now know to call the church if it happens again.

The last ones at least left quietly.

//Now the Jehovah's Witnesses, they've been by with their toddlers lately. I guess people are less likely to slam the door in a toddlers face.

nekom: How can you blame them for pushing for what they truly believe is right?

disappearing golden plates? counterfeiting? stealing? lost tribes of israel in north america? and of course mass murder...


/hot like hell

rickythepenguin: hauoli_akua: Dish is based out of Englewood, Colorado.


oh shiat. well ffark. there went that theory. i could have sworn they were our of Utah.

well still. I guess Colorado is the freak that is way into itnerracial porn. I mean, nothing against that, but.....every other movie?

Ricky...you're officially my favorite of the day.

elemenopy: Apeleutheros Weddings don't happen in the Temple. Sealings do.


When pressed about this, my LDS friends said that sometimes for non-LDS family members, a side "Ring Ceremony" will be held, but it's meanlingless and both bishops and family members pressure them to not do anything but the temple sealing because it's the only thing that matters.

Also, anyone can come into the Temple, you just have to be a member in good standing.

As I said - "families are forever"... but only if you're LDS.

It's an LDS slogan so yeah, that would be part of it. Most LDS slogans are meant to for members of the LDS church.

Also, I call BS on that bolded part above. I think you made that up to further your point. If it DID happen then you have some pretty shallow/insensitive friends.

They don't like it when you call them "The Church of the Holy Fanfic."

erveek: They don't like it when you call them "The Church of the Holy Fanfic."

Ok, I chortled.

In my opinion, if you look at the standard Bible and say "hold on a minute, we need to make this crock of shiat weirder," there is something deeply wrong with you.

The only positive thing I hear about Mormons is how "family oriented" and "well behaved" they are. Last time I checked, it's possible to raise well-adjusted children and have a happy family without belonging to any specific faith. It just pisses me off that these "Come to Christ" ads and their ilk imply that people are incapable of being happy or raising well-adjusted children without reading a 2000 year old book and believing in a dude that looks like Barry Gibb.

If you have to wear "magic underwear" and restrict your entertainment to G-rated movies to be happy, then you've got problems.

"Some non-Mormons don't understand that splinter groups that practice polygamy are excommunicated from the church, he said."

Right. And some non-Mormons don't understand that they still teach that polygamy is "God's way" and that they're just holding off on it because the nasty American government is forcing them. Or that God will make it all better by giving them the extra wives from the spirits of dead people (goes along with their whole post-death baptism concept).

They also still teach that non-white people are that way because God cursed them, and that gay people can't get into heaven. To their credit, I think they're a little more hush-hush about the homosexuality thing than the Catholics are, but that may be because the Catholics are embarrassed by their long-standing catamites issue.

Honestly, a lot of their stuff isn't that bad. But there's some seriously nasty crap woven in with it. The above, for example. Cult-like behavior. Also for some reason, they seem to have an extremely high incidence of child abuse (possibly relating to the aforementioned bigotry, attitudes towards women, and cult-like behavior).

Apeleutheros:
Weddings don't happen in the Temple. Sealings do. You still have to go to the county and get a marriage license. I know plenty of people who have had full weddings and then did the Temple Sealing later. Or before, either way. Sounds like she has an insensitive kid that wanted teach her some wierd lesson.

Also, anyone can come into the Temple, you just have to be a member in good standing. No secret agenda.

This is a gross misrepresentation. EVERYBODY has to get a marriage license from the county, but that marriage license does not constitute a marriage; it's a license to get married. What happens in the temple IS YOUR WEDDING. That is where you are legally married. If you don't get married IN THE TEMPLE, you have to wait for a year before they will let you go for a sealing. There is tremendous pressure on the couple to get married IN THE TEMPLE, regardless of who can or cannot attend.

Apeleutheros: elemenopy: Apeleutheros Weddings don't happen in the Temple. Sealings do.


When pressed about this, my LDS friends said that sometimes for non-LDS family members, a side "Ring Ceremony" will be held, but it's meanlingless and both bishops and family members pressure them to not do anything but the temple sealing because it's the only thing that matters.

Also, anyone can come into the Temple, you just have to be a member in good standing.

As I said - "families are forever"... but only if you're LDS.

It's an LDS slogan so yeah, that would be part of it. Most LDS slogans are meant to for members of the LDS church.

Also, I call BS on that bolded part above. I think you made that up to further your point. If it DID happen then you have some pretty shallow/insensitive friends.

I doubt he made that up, I have heard that time and time again from many Mormon's, both current and former.

There is immense pressure to be sealed in the Temple, as you already know, and any other ceremonies are just to placate the non-mormon's who are not allowed to see the real ceremony because they aren't "WORTHY".

Which by the way no other religion or denomination I know does that either.

tarkus1980: Apeleutheros: grizzlyjohnson: Apeleutheros: You are correct though, most 19 year old guys have no idea where they'd like to serve, they just announce their willingness and then go where they are called.

But if you have pull in the church you can get your kid posted to Hawaii or France.

I'm sure it happens. It's big (huge) organization.
I'll bet those people can still do great things is Hawaii or France.

Dude, France is not a desirable mission. I've known a few people who served in France, and none of them had a happy experience with it.

Can't speak for Hawaii.

I served in Hawaii. It was a mission.
Had a friend serve in France.
We both renormalized pretty quickly.

fushigi: They also still teach that non-white people are that way because God cursed them, and that gay people can't get into heaven

This is my problem with them now trying to distance themselves from the racism and homophobia when it is part of the foundation of the religion.

elemenopy: I stopped buying their claims of being so big on strong families when I saw one of my mom's friends sitting on the steps of the local LDS temple one day on my way home. She looked extremely distressed, so I stopped to see if she needed help.

Turns out her daughter was getting married in the temple - converted to the church, and because she wasn't a member, she wasn't allowed at her own daughter's wedding. Her only child. The horror and pain on her face told me everything I need to know about their claims of "families are forever."

That apparently only applies if the family is LDS.

Elemopy,

I'm sorry, it sounds like a horrible incident for your mom's friend, but I'd be seriously interested in the daughters point of view. The couple could have the choice of marrying civily first then marrying in the temple later one. The fact that the daughter chose to marry and exclude her family seems to have some basis somewhere? I'm not sure, and I really don't want to guess, but again, it would be really, really interesting to hear the daughters point of view.

Again, sorry for the painful experience your mom's friend endured.

Jesusaurus: If you don't get married IN THE TEMPLE, you have to wait for a year before they will let you go for a sealing.

Not necessarily. I was pregnant before I got married, and we were required to wait a year. But if you're not required to wait, you can get married wherever you want, and go to the temple anytime afterward.

hauoli_akua:
Except for the part where they believe they'll go to hell if they misuse member's tithing.

And there's the other part where Deseret Management Corporation brings in more than enough money to throw at multiple yearly prop 8's. But usually much of it goes to bigger problems. Like aid for victims of tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, and the like.

This does not constitute proof.

New Mormon ad campaign attempts to wash away the stain of being associated with polygamists, racists, homophobia, Twilight, and Orson Scott Card.

Apeleutheros: Also, I call BS on that bolded part above. I think you made that up to further your point. If it DID happen then you have some pretty shallow/insensitive friends.

It's what I've been told by followers of your faith. That's what I have to go on. We shared stories as we were planning our weddings.

If that makes them shallow - and the fact that all of them said the same thing? Then it speaks to something shallow or insensitive within the LDS faith. Or at least there's a problem within the wards to which they're assigned to attend.

One thing I will note - the experiences I hear from male LDS is far different than female LDS. Which are you? Because all of my friends are female.

/most after all weddings were over liked mine better
//two have formally resigned, due to the temple ceremony - it horrified them

fushigi:
Right. And some non-Mormons don't understand that they still teach that polygamy is "God's way" and that they're just holding off on it because the nasty American government is forcing them. Or that God will make it all better by giving them the extra wives from the spirits of dead people (goes along with their whole post-death baptism concept).

They also still teach that non-white people are that way because God cursed them, and that gay people can't get into heaven. To their credit, I think they're a little more hush-hush about the homosexuality thing than the Catholics are, but that may be because the Catholics are embarrassed by their long-standing catamites issue.

Honestly, a lot of their stuff isn't that bad. But there's some seriously nasty crap woven in with it. The above, for example. Cult-like behavior. Also for some reason, they seem to have an extremely high incidence of child abuse (possibly relating to the aforementioned bigotry, attitudes towards women, and cult-like behavior).

Mormons believe:
In polygamy: Fiction.
Non-whites are all cursed: Fiction.
Gays can't get into heaven: Fiction.

/cool story bro

farkingismybusiness: Dumb dumb dumb dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb.



"Maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the Church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls."

Jesusaurus: this does not constitute proof.

Neither does your claim that the non-profit branch paid for it.

ophilye: Please, PLEASE don't think Mormons are "okay".

They are if in tiny doses, or as part of a larger collective.

Move to Utah as a non-mormon for a year or two, try to get a job, realize that if you're not A)Male, and B)Mormon, you do not get to have a job. They actually talk during Stake Meetings about how to get each other jobs at their company, like some awful High School Clique that never ends! Women are kept barefoot & pregnant from age 18 on, and they're happy to be so. The more independent female "freaks" are paid quite a bit less if they do make it into the workforce, and treated very differently.

The entire state is ruled by the church, whether on purpose (ala the inability to sell alcohol most anywhere) or through social discourses (The neighbors are watching you at all times, and are going to tattle to god if you're not good).

The entire state of Utah is a few centuries behind everyone else. Don't let them fool you into believing they're "Normal".

/ Took me 29 years to finally get out
// Anywhere is better than there.
/// Except maybe Missouri

This is absolutely not true. And if you don't even want to throw mormon into the mix, then I'll have you talk to my good friend Poppy who's been remarkably successfull in Utah, and even in Utah County, despite the fact that she's female and not lds, or you could talk to Angela, who's across the street at the Adobe NOC.

I'm sorry that you've had a difficult time, however, I've worked my entire career with very skilled and successful women.

And yes, there are employment services, and they are available to everyone, not just the men in the church.

hauoli_akua: fushigi:
Right. And some non-Mormons don't understand that they still teach that polygamy is "God's way" and that they're just holding off on it because the nasty American government is forcing them. Or that God will make it all better by giving them the extra wives from the spirits of dead people (goes along with their whole post-death baptism concept).

They also still teach that non-white people are that way because God cursed them, and that gay people can't get into heaven. To their credit, I think they're a little more hush-hush about the homosexuality thing than the Catholics are, but that may be because the Catholics are embarrassed by their long-standing catamites issue.

Honestly, a lot of their stuff isn't that bad. But there's some seriously nasty crap woven in with it. The above, for example. Cult-like behavior. Also for some reason, they seem to have an extremely high incidence of child abuse (possibly relating to the aforementioned bigotry, attitudes towards women, and cult-like behavior).

Mormons believe:
In polygamy: Fiction.
Non-whites are all cursed: Fiction.
Gays can't get into heaven: Fiction.

/cool story bro

From the church trying to explain that 'dark skin' actually means 'darkness of heart,' but go on to say something that sounds anti-semitic too:

"The dark skin is mentioned as the mark of a general way of life; it is a Gypsy or Bedouin type of darkness, "black" and "white" being used in their Oriental sense (as in Egyptian), black and loathsome being contrasted to white and delightsome (2 Nephi 5:21-22). We are told that when "their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes" they shall become ... "a pure and delightsome people" (2 Nephi 30:6 [the word "pure" was once printed as "white" but was corrected by Joseph Smith in the 1840 Book of Mormon to be "pure," though later printings missed the correction until 1981]), and at the same time the Jews "shall also become a delightsome people" (2 Nephi 30:7). Darkness and filthiness go together as part of a way of life (Jacob 3:5,9); we never hear of the Lamanites becoming whiter, no matter how righteous they were, except when they adopted the Nephite way of life (3 Nephi 2:14-15), while the Lamanites could, by becoming more savage in their ways than their brother Lamanites, actually become darker, "a dark, filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been . . . among the Lamanites" (Mormon 5:15). The dark skin is but one of the marks that God places upon the Lamanites, and these marks go together; people who joined the Lamanites were marked like them (Alma 3:10); they were naked and their skins were dark (Alma 3:5-6); when "they set the mark upon themselves; . . . the Amlicites knew not that they were fulfilling the words of God," when he said, "I will set a mark on them. . . . I will set a mark upon him that mingleth his seed with thy brethren. . . . I will set a mark upon him that fighteth against thee [Nephi] and thy seed" (Alma 3:13-18). "Even so," says Alma, "doth every man that is cursed bring upon himself his own condemnation" (Alma 3:19). By their own deliberate act they both marked their foreheads and turned their bodies dark. Though ever alert to miraculous manifestations, the authors of the Book of Mormon never refer to the transformation of Lamanites into "white and delightsome" Nephites or Nephites into "dark and loathsome" Lamanites as in any way miraculous or marvelous. When they became savage "because of their cursing" (2 Nephi 5:24), their skins became dark and they also became "loathsome" to the Nephites (2 Nephi 5:21-22). But there is nothing loathsome about dark skin, which most people consider very attractive: the darkness, like the loathsomeness, was part of the general picture (Jacob 3:9); Mormon prays "that they may once again be a delightsome people" (Words of Mormon 1:8; Mormon 5:17), but then the Jews are also to become "a delightsome people" (2 Nephi 30:7)--are they black? "

Jesusaurus: Apeleutheros:
Weddings don't happen in the Temple. Sealings do. You still have to go to the county and get a marriage license. I know plenty of people who have had full weddings and then did the Temple Sealing later. Or before, either way. Sounds like she has an insensitive kid that wanted teach her some wierd lesson.

Also, anyone can come into the Temple, you just have to be a member in good standing. No secret agenda.

This is a gross misrepresentation. EVERYBODY has to get a marriage license from the county, but that marriage license does not constitute a marriage; it's a license to get married. What happens in the temple IS YOUR WEDDING. That is where you are legally married. If you don't get married IN THE TEMPLE, you have to wait for a year before they will let you go for a sealing. There is tremendous pressure on the couple to get married IN THE TEMPLE, regardless of who can or cannot attend.

Wrong.

What?
No pics of hot Mormon chicks?

Oh wait, they dont' exist.

When I resigned from the church (formal letter only), I was told I will lose my 'heavenly benefits,' maybe they have a cobra plan.

teeny: Jesusaurus: If you don't get married IN THE TEMPLE, you have to wait for a year before they will let you go for a sealing.

Not necessarily. I was pregnant before I got married, and we were required to wait a year. But if you're not required to wait, you can get married wherever you want, and go to the temple anytime afterward.

If this is true, it's news to me. I'm pretty sure the waiting period is stated in the PHI, but I'm happy to be corrected.

In any case, I stand by the assertion that the social and institutional pressure on couples to get married in the temple is immense. Civil ceremonies between two believing mormons are viewed as somewhat tragic.

/here in Utah, anyway.