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(Independent)   British doctors who quit working for the NHS are forced to sign gag orders despite legislation protecting them from whistleblowing. But don't worry; that could never happen here   (independent.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Scary, investigation, NHS, gagging orders, whistleblowers, The Next Doctor, Department of Health, General Medical Council, oxygen masks  
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4629 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Aug 2010 at 1:16 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



73 Comments     (+0 »)
 


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2010-08-05 01:09:09 AM  
Yeah, 170 doctors out of how many thousands?
 
2010-08-05 01:19:29 AM  
They aren't forced to sign a damn thing. They are being bribed to sign it. And they are accepting the bribes.
 
2010-08-05 01:20:12 AM  
Given that we don't have any plans to institute anything like Britain's National Health Service, it's safe to say that it can't happen here.

On the other hand, any private company in the U.S. could similarly have contracts with their employees which put gag orders in place if the employees quit.

So the gag order thing could happen here, just not in conjunction with some single player government run health care system.

Feel better now, subby?
 
2010-08-05 01:20:48 AM  
But don't worry; that could never happen here

It happens here every single day.....at privately run hospitals.
 
2010-08-05 01:21:25 AM  
Can't courts overrule that

(they can in the US, but I dunno about the UK)
 
2010-08-05 01:28:52 AM  
Only a judge can issue a binding gag order. If malfeasance or illegal activity is hidden by gag order, the gag order is not enforceable.

As it is, we Americans for the most part have no idea what actual universal healthcare is, and with the latest legislation we won't for some time.
 
2010-08-05 01:30:00 AM  

BadAnalogyGuy: Only a judge can issue a binding gag order. If malfeasance or illegal activity is hidden by gag order, the gag order is not enforceable.

As it is, we Americans for the most part have no idea what actual universal healthcare is, and with the latest legislation we won't for some time.


Good.
 
2010-08-05 01:31:01 AM  
Nope, can't happen here... we've gutted all the whistleblower laws.

Problem solved!
 
2010-08-05 01:34:12 AM  
"But don't worry; that could never happen here" That made me laugh,
 
2010-08-05 01:34:23 AM  
 
2010-08-05 01:36:14 AM  
A (British) government agency is bribing/coercing its former employees into keeping their mouths shut about said agency's incompetence, and people are defending this?

And yes, it could happen here. The government doesn't abide by its own laws, for crying out loud. This could, and has, and will happen here.
 
2010-08-05 01:36:34 AM  
camtheman: Good.

Good that we won't have universal health care?
 
2010-08-05 01:37:25 AM  

WhyteRaven74: camtheman: Good.

Good that we won't have universal health care?


I think good that we don't know what it is.
 
2010-08-05 01:37:39 AM  

WhyteRaven74: camtheman: Good.

Good that we won't have universal health care?


Yes. And before I get labeled as a conservative, I just want to say that I'm a libertarian/minarchist with views that border on anarchy, so you won't find me defending dumbass Republican proposals either.
 
2010-08-05 01:38:06 AM  
Mattyb710
2010-08-05 01:19:29 AM

They aren't forced to sign a damn thing. They are being bribed to sign it. And they are accepting the bribes.

***
This

Go back and read the story people!
 
2010-08-05 01:39:48 AM  
This article is interesting, but it fails to address some major issues:

1) (As someone already pointed out) The "gag orders", really agreements, are entered into voluntarily in exchange for lovely, luvverly pounds sterling. The people discussed in this article are those that took this money, but then tried to turn around and blow the whistle - wait, what?

2) How common is this issue? The statisticals, they elude me. Is there a common wording for these "gags"? How restrictive are they? Do they apply to everything across the board or just to sensitive material that these people have access to? Are they being pushed by some managers more than others, and if so, do these managers appear to be using them to hide their own incompetence?

3) Is this issue isolated to certain hospitals that are in trouble and trying to hide it, or is this more commonplace? If these contracts are being negotiated with the NHS, someone should be able to find out the prevalence.

4) Is there a valid purpose to these agreements? I can see how physicians moving into the private sector would be tempted to trash-talk the NHS in order to drum up business for themselves. You think that shiat doesn't happen, you're an idiot.

So, yeah. Nice little paranoid article, but lacks substance. [Citation Needed], indeed.
 
2010-08-05 01:39:59 AM  

DownDaRiver: Mattyb710
2010-08-05 01:19:29 AM

They aren't forced to sign a damn thing. They are being bribed to sign it. And they are accepting the bribes.

***
This

Go back and read the story people!


Oh come on, if some government goon sits you down and looks you in the eyes and offers you a "bribe," are you really going to turn him down?

I agree, these people took the bribes and that's on them, but governments can intimidate people into doing this shiat.
 
2010-08-05 01:41:31 AM  

log_jammin: But don't worry; that could never happen here

It happens here every single day.....at privately run hospitals.


Yeah. Actually, with the insurance companies in charge of everything, it happens here a lot MORE than in countries with nationalized health care.

It's so idiotic when conservatives say "I don't want anybody standing between me and my doctor!!!" as an argument against a national health care system, when standing between you and your doctor is pretty much the definition of "insurance company". I do insurance billing. Trust me: Their job is not to serve you. Their company goals are to find ways to deny claims, or make it damned hard to file them.

In nationalized health care, you have one government agency making sure doctors get paid, and people see doctors and get surgery based on need instead of privilege. In privatized health care, the CEO and board of a multi-billion-dollar company decides whether or not allowing you to live would be a good return on their investment.

Privatized health care is great if you're earning over $100,000 a year and don't need to worry when (not if, but when) the insurance company says, "no, we won't cover you." -- For everyone else, it's a crap shoot.

Privatized insurance is the system with honest-to-goodness "death panels", except these "death panels" are businessmen who have a formula that figures your age, your income, your credit rating, and your potential to keep paying them for enough years to allow them to profit greatly by allowing you to live.

All these attempts to demonize the national health care systems in most of the free world just reeks of desperation and xenophobia on the part of conservatives. There isn't a single country in the world who has nationalized health care and thinks it's terrible, or has suffered as a nation because of it. NOT ONE.

In fact, in most countries with national health care plans, the people who started these programs are venerated as heroes. Canada calls the man who pushed for their system, "The Greatest Canadian Ever".

That's hardly the sentiment of a nation who has been devastated or damaged by national health care.

I challenge any conservative who opposes national health care to list any country whose economy has collapsed, or whose free market has failed, or whose people are worse off financially or physically than Americans.

You won't find any of that. You can't find any of that unless you cherry-pick individuals out of the millions-- even billions-- who have nothing but good things to say about their nation's health care system.

We don't become socialists if we accept social programs that benefit our nation's well-being. Let it go, and try to do something for your fellow Americans for a change, instead of always thinking about yourselves.
 
2010-08-05 01:42:07 AM  

DownDaRiver:

Go back and read the story people!


I don't have time for that! There's libs to biatch about!
 
2010-08-05 01:45:39 AM  

camtheman: A (British) government agency is bribing/coercing its former employees into keeping their mouths shut about said agency's incompetence, and people are defending this?


The NHS is divided up into trusts - regional authorities that run the hospitals like a business. They are the ones that write the contracts, hence the variations. They are only loosely a "government agency"

Also, I have a confidentiality clause in my contract too. It's standard farking practice these days.

/my wife is pregnant. Since we're classified as medium risk, we have a meeting with an anaesthesiologist, and we have scans scheduled at 20,28,30 and 32 weeks. All taking place in a newly built maternity unit. We already had scans at 8 and 13 weeks. Free at the point of delivery, and I don't grudge the tax I pay for it
 
2010-08-05 01:51:20 AM  
Could someone gut punch Tom Daschle on behalf of the American people?
 
2010-08-05 01:59:33 AM  

DuncanMhor:
The NHS is divided up into trusts - regional authorities that run the hospitals like a business. They are the ones that write the contracts, hence the variations. They are only loosely a "government agency"


Thank you - that just supports my point that this article seems very lacking in substance... Is it just one of the trusts, or is this standard practice? Is this trust in a poorly-performing area, and the paid-for confidentiality agreements to keep that quiet, or is there a more valid reason - like keeping people from being able to make BS statements at will to try and drive people away from the NHS and into their own private clinic?


Also, I have a confidentiality clause in my contract too. It's standard farking practice these days.


In a lot of places, yeah. And if you're a whistleblower, you're supposed to be protected - although that depends on the country and industry we're talking about.


/my wife is pregnant. Since we're classified as medium risk, we have a meeting with an anaesthesiologist, and we have scans scheduled at 20,28,30 and 32 weeks. All taking place in a newly built maternity unit. We already had scans at 8 and 13 weeks. Free at the point of delivery, and I don't grudge the tax I pay for it


Congrats - in the USA, a lot of people WITH insurance end up 2-3k out of pocket with all the deductables and what-not. I'm lucky enough to have good insurance through my work, so it was only a $150 copay for the entire delivery and stay (waived since I work for the hospital group in question), so my only bills were reasonable copays from the OB/GYN for prenatal care.

Most people, however, get nailed hard when they most need the money. Cradle-to-grave debt indeed, eh?
 
2010-08-05 02:00:21 AM  

DuncanMhor: camtheman: A (British) government agency is bribing/coercing its former employees into keeping their mouths shut about said agency's incompetence, and people are defending this?

The NHS is divided up into trusts - regional authorities that run the hospitals like a business. They are the ones that write the contracts, hence the variations. They are only loosely a "government agency"

Also, I have a confidentiality clause in my contract too. It's standard farking practice these days.

/my wife is pregnant. Since we're classified as medium risk, we have a meeting with an anaesthesiologist, and we have scans scheduled at 20,28,30 and 32 weeks. All taking place in a newly built maternity unit. We already had scans at 8 and 13 weeks. Free at the point of delivery, and I don't grudge the tax I pay for it


I'm glad it's working out for you.

I don't want public healthcare for myself, however. I am happy with my private healthcare, and don't ever want to pay a tax for something I won't use. Assuming it happens in the US someday, that is.
 
2010-08-05 02:01:14 AM  
I can talk trash about my job all I want, as long as I don't mind being unemployed.

Seriously, to keep my job I had to sign something that said I'd never say anything "embarrassing" or otherwise sensitive about the company at risk of termination. I can only hope this isn't embarrassing. I can't see how it would be since a lot of companies do this. Pretty common afaik.

/private sector, public company
//not really that important of a person
///seriously
 
2010-08-05 02:01:31 AM  

Mattyb710: They aren't forced to sign a damn thing. They are being bribed to sign it. And they are accepting the bribes.


Really? You didn't read all the way down to the seventh paragraph in TFA?

"Campaign groups claim that NHS managers sometimes resort to intimidatory tactics to deter medics from coming forward, while others that break cover can face years of expense and uncertainty before their cases reach court. The result, they say, is that doctors accept the gagging clauses in order to protect their careers and avoid legal wrangling."
 
2010-08-05 02:03:02 AM  

camtheman: DuncanMhor: camtheman: A (British) government agency is bribing/coercing its former employees into keeping their mouths shut about said agency's incompetence, and people are defending this?

The NHS is divided up into trusts - regional authorities that run the hospitals like a business. They are the ones that write the contracts, hence the variations. They are only loosely a "government agency"

Also, I have a confidentiality clause in my contract too. It's standard farking practice these days.

/my wife is pregnant. Since we're classified as medium risk, we have a meeting with an anaesthesiologist, and we have scans scheduled at 20,28,30 and 32 weeks. All taking place in a newly built maternity unit. We already had scans at 8 and 13 weeks. Free at the point of delivery, and I don't grudge the tax I pay for it

I'm glad it's working out for you.

I don't want public healthcare for myself, however. I am happy with my private healthcare, and don't ever want to pay a tax for something I won't use. Assuming it happens in the US someday, that is.


You sound white. And middle class.
 
2010-08-05 02:05:50 AM  

House of Tards: camtheman: DuncanMhor: camtheman: A (British) government agency is bribing/coercing its former employees into keeping their mouths shut about said agency's incompetence, and people are defending this?

The NHS is divided up into trusts - regional authorities that run the hospitals like a business. They are the ones that write the contracts, hence the variations. They are only loosely a "government agency"

Also, I have a confidentiality clause in my contract too. It's standard farking practice these days.

/my wife is pregnant. Since we're classified as medium risk, we have a meeting with an anaesthesiologist, and we have scans scheduled at 20,28,30 and 32 weeks. All taking place in a newly built maternity unit. We already had scans at 8 and 13 weeks. Free at the point of delivery, and I don't grudge the tax I pay for it

I'm glad it's working out for you.

I don't want public healthcare for myself, however. I am happy with my private healthcare, and don't ever want to pay a tax for something I won't use. Assuming it happens in the US someday, that is.

You sound white. And middle class.


White, yes. Middle class...well, I was raised middle class, but right now I'm 26 and doing okay, but I ain't middle class.

You sound like a brainwashed statist.

BullBearMS: Mattyb710: They aren't forced to sign a damn thing. They are being bribed to sign it. And they are accepting the bribes.

Really? You didn't read all the way down to the seventh paragraph in TFA?

"Campaign groups claim that NHS managers sometimes resort to intimidatory tactics to deter medics from coming forward, while others that break cover can face years of expense and uncertainty before their cases reach court. The result, they say, is that doctors accept the gagging clauses in order to protect their careers and avoid legal wrangling."


THIS.
 
2010-08-05 02:07:36 AM  
camtheman: Yes.

How exactly is it good?

don't ever want to pay a tax for something I won't use.

You realize you do that all the time now?
 
2010-08-05 02:10:16 AM  
Obligatory non-liberal headline for the advertisers. Poor show.
 
2010-08-05 02:10:58 AM  

WhyteRaven74: camtheman: Yes.

How exactly is it good?

don't ever want to pay a tax for something I won't use.

You realize you do that all the time now?


Yeah, I know. And it makes me sick. Public education I haven't used since second grade, road upkeep that simply doesn't happen, excessive defense spending that has gotten us nowhere, police who intimidate everyone, laws that govern who can love who....I hate all of it.
 
2010-08-05 02:28:03 AM  

camtheman: I just want to say that I'm a libertarian/minarchist with views that border on anarchy


So what the hell are you doing the government-created Internet?
 
2010-08-05 02:28:48 AM  

camtheman: WhyteRaven74: camtheman: Yes.

How exactly is it good?

don't ever want to pay a tax for something I won't use.

You realize you do that all the time now?

Yeah, I know. And it makes me sick. Public education I haven't used since second grade, road upkeep that simply doesn't happen, excessive defense spending that has gotten us nowhere, police who intimidate everyone, laws that govern who can love who....I hate all of it.


Also, the enforcement of stupid drug laws and the imprisonment of non-violent offenders. Don't like paying for those either.
 
2010-08-05 02:28:53 AM  
How does subby get internet signal to post this, all the way through the reinforced walls of his basement bunker, surrounded by canned goods and ammo that he's hoarded while waiting for the new world order short bus to come take him to a re-education camp?
 
2010-08-05 02:33:59 AM  

camtheman: Yeah, I know. And it makes me sick. Public education I haven't used since second grade


You have never interacted with somebody who was publicly educated? Never bought anything that was designed by somebody who was publicly educated? Never seen a doctor who was publicly educated?

I salute you sir. You truly are an island.
 
2010-08-05 02:34:26 AM  

camtheman: Yeah, I know. And it makes me sick. Public education I haven't used since second grade, road upkeep that simply doesn't happen, excessive defense spending that has gotten us nowhere, police who intimidate everyone, laws that govern who can love who....I hate all of it.


you may not think you use those things but you do.
 
2010-08-05 02:36:49 AM  

camtheman: DuncanMhor: camtheman: A (British) government agency is bribing/coercing its former employees into keeping their mouths shut about said agency's incompetence, and people are defending this?

The NHS is divided up into trusts - regional authorities that run the hospitals like a business. They are the ones that write the contracts, hence the variations. They are only loosely a "government agency"

Also, I have a confidentiality clause in my contract too. It's standard farking practice these days.

/my wife is pregnant. Since we're classified as medium risk, we have a meeting with an anaesthesiologist, and we have scans scheduled at 20,28,30 and 32 weeks. All taking place in a newly built maternity unit. We already had scans at 8 and 13 weeks. Free at the point of delivery, and I don't grudge the tax I pay for it

I'm glad it's working out for you.

I don't want public healthcare for myself, however. I am happy with my private healthcare, and don't ever want to pay a tax for something I won't use. Assuming it happens in the US someday, that is.


Er- wait, wha? You pay for private healthcare, but you... Don't use it, apparently? Or you think you would derive no benefit whatsoever from national healthcare?

Little secret, skippy - part of the reason healthcare is so expensive in the US is all the free riders, the uninsured that use ERs as their primary clinic 'cause EMTALA says they have to be treated there. They can't afford anything better. EMTALA basically created a national health care service, it's just the most expensive one with the poorest outcomes you could ever devise. Paying for primary, preventative care for these people is 1,000 times cheaper than waiting for them to fall apart and then forcing everyone else to pay for putting them back together again countless times over in our hospitals.

The taxes you'll pay for a national health service will lower your premiums and lower other taxes that you have to pay now (medicare/medicaid, etc) at LEAST as much as the new taxes would increase them, and almost certainly more so.

camtheman: WhyteRaven74: camtheman: Yes.

How exactly is it good?

don't ever want to pay a tax for something I won't use.

You realize you do that all the time now?

Yeah, I know. And it makes me sick. Public education I haven't used since second grade, road upkeep that simply doesn't happen, excessive defense spending that has gotten us nowhere, police who intimidate everyone, laws that govern who can love who....I hate all of it.


Hey, y'know what, you're right. Instead of working on fixing these problems, let's cut off our noses to spite our faces. That sounds like the long-term thinking and rational response I've come to expect from people these days.

/You benefit indirectly from a more-educated populace far more than the school taxes you pay.
/You benefit directly and indirectly from the massive, massive highway & public road infrastructure so much more than you must realize. Sorry about your potholes; maybe the local yokels in city/county governance need a smacking - at that level, you can actually personally have some influence on the process, didja know that?
/Agree completely on the gay marriage thing, somewhat on military spending- some of it is good, some bad, a lot totally WTF. However, until I see some appreciation of the economic benefits you personally receive due to America's massive force projection capabilities (and therefore long-range economic strong-arm capabilities), I'll note that you don't know what you're talking about.
//And I'm pretty liberal, so HA-HA!
 
2010-08-05 02:55:23 AM  

camtheman: Yeah, I know. And it makes me sick. Public education I haven't used since second grade, road upkeep that simply doesn't happen, excessive defense spending that has gotten us nowhere, police who intimidate everyone, laws that govern who can love who....I hate all of it.


So in other words: "fark you, got mine"

Why don't you move to Somalia? That sounds like the kind of government you'd enjoy.
 
2010-08-05 03:11:29 AM  

NovaeDeArx: Agree completely on the gay marriage thing, somewhat on military spending- some of it is good, some bad, a lot totally WTF. However, until I see some appreciation of the economic benefits you personally receive due to America's massive force projection capabilities (and therefore long-range economic strong-arm capabilities), I'll note that you don't know what you're talking about.


lol.i.trollyou.com
 
2010-08-05 03:22:30 AM  
[4chantroll.jpg]

So... You're the guy in the bottom panels then? I dun' been trolled?

Eh. It's Fark. It happens.
 
2010-08-05 03:26:14 AM  

camtheman:

...Public education I haven't used since second grade....


Ohhhhhhhh, wait. Nevermind.

See, this is my fault - I assumed that meant you had gone to a private school.

I'll just move on to "only has a second grade education", then. Your posts make way more sense in that context.

/GOLD STAR
 
2010-08-05 03:58:12 AM  
wikileaks...wikileaks
 
2010-08-05 05:27:50 AM  
ZeroCorpse Great stuff. It should be noted that even the most right wing commentators in the British gutter press wouldn't seriously go after the NHS. Nobody claims it's perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than the broken system in the US.
 
2010-08-05 07:30:46 AM  

2chris2: On the other hand, any private company in the U.S. could similarly have contracts with their employees which put gag orders in place if the employees quit.

So the gag order thing could happen here, just not in conjunction with some single player government run health care system.


If there is a safety or health violation they can't put a gag order on you.

Strobeguy: wikileaks...wikileaks


Doesn't make america look bad, os they aren't going to touch it.
 
2010-08-05 07:30:47 AM  

2chris2: Given that we don't have any plans to institute anything like Britain's National Health Service, it's safe to say that it can't happen here.

On the other hand, any private company in the U.S. could similarly have contracts with their employees which put gag orders in place if the employees quit.

So the gag order thing could happen here, just not in conjunction with some single player government run health care system.

Feel better now, subby?


Of course. Being farked by the government (that you can vote out of office) is bad - it's socialism.
On the other hand, being farked by a mega-corporation larger and more powerful than 3/4 of the world's governments (over which you have no control whatsoever) is good - it's the free market!
 
2010-08-05 07:47:04 AM  
Taking the headline at face value, I'd say that you have to understand this is the GOVERNMENT and they can do what they want. They'll pass laws basically saying you have no recourse against them.

/It's true, governments default on loans and leases all the time.
 
2010-08-05 08:04:00 AM  
The simpletons don't understand that when it's all under government control, then the government will be your only avenue to treatment outside of a black market. What does that mean? It means that if you don't like your diagnosis, tough luck. You piss off the wrong person and get "lost" in the system or put at the end of the line? tough luck. You want something faster or better than normal? You need to bribe your local bureaucrat to make it happen.

No, all of this will not happen on day 1 of ObamaCare, but the bill has rigged the system so that this is inevitable.
 
2010-08-05 08:33:20 AM  

YouFarkingIdiot: The simpletons don't understand that when it's all under government control, then the government will be your only avenue to treatment outside of a black market. What does that mean? It means that if you don't like your diagnosis, tough luck. You piss off the wrong person and get "lost" in the system or put at the end of the line? tough luck. You want something faster or better than normal? You need to bribe your local bureaucrat to make it happen.

No, all of this will not happen on day 1 of ObamaCare, but the bill has rigged the system so that this is inevitable.


You farking idiot.

I've had numerous dealings with the NHS as a patient. A couple of years ago I moved and went to a new surgery. My assigned doctor turned out to be judgemental (he was berating my below-average alcohol ingestion and suggesting I was an alcoholic because I drank a few pints on a Friday after work) and someone I just felt was a bit of a twat. I excused myself, went to the desk and asked to see a different doctor. 15 minutes later and I'm seeing another doctor in the same surgery. I didn't get bumped or "lost in the system".

And as for government being the only avenue, that's just pure, unmitigated horseshiat. I dislocated a shoulder playing rugby and need a reconstruction. I could have waited a few months for a shoulder specialist in my area or pay to see the best in the country 3 weeks later. I wanted to play again so decided to pay. This was in a private hospital and not on some mythical "black market". No bribes were paid.

You need to acquaint yourself with the real world, it's not as scary as you think.
 
2010-08-05 08:38:14 AM  
Every single farking thing that the right wing trots out as a Big Scary Thing That Only Happens With Soshalist Medicine is something that already routinely happens in our capitalist medical system.
 
2010-08-05 08:52:10 AM  

The Envoy: You need to acquaint yourself with the real world, it's not as scary as you think


That settles it! Your experience is absolutely the experience of all and will be forever. In the US, now that the leftists have declared health care a "right", what will happen to doctors who do not participate in the scam? If health care is a right, then what happens when no one wants to give me the treatment I demand? The government must then force someone, no? It is MY RIGHT!

Or maybe doctors will be able to not be part of the scam, getting paid much less than they would in a private market. But then we'd be back to where we are today. But with no health insurance because there would be a single payer who would not pay those doctors.

BTW, your government is going broke as fast as ours. Your so called health care is being scaled back already, even though you have a system that makes people wait months for routine things that happen immediately here in the US. You need to acquaint yourself with the freight train heading your way instead of pretending all is well.
 
2010-08-05 09:04:19 AM  
While I was in afghanistan our company commander issued a gag order to the whole unit. Something embarrassing happened to our chain of command there and we were ordered not to talk to the press, other units, or anyone that asked questions about what happened. So I'm fairly sure a gag order could happen in america.
 
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