eraser8: Even if you don't think it's likely to happen in the real world, you must still admit that it IS possible for race-conscious admissions to mean something other than the preference for unqualified or underqualified applicants over more qualified applicants of the "wrong" skin color or ethic identity.

It is possible, but highly unlikely. In the real life you don't wee perfectly equal candidates all that often. So this preference, if it is actually used like this would come in to play so rarely it wouldn't make a significant difference.

eraser8: Not only that, but selective schools really do expect all admits to be of relatively equal academic caliber. They are not going to admit a certain percentage of black or Latino students because they have a quota to fill. They really aren't.


Relatively equal isn't the same as "Exactly identical".

And no they don't. They want the cream of the crop. In any pool some admits are going to be the bottom of the barrel.

eraser8: I'm not sure why you're objecting...unless you think it's impossible for minority candidates to be as qualified as white candidates. And, if you are, you're not arguing from a position of reality.

Really? Because that's exactly what these kinds of things say. White people will always be the most qualified, so we need to give special consideration to minorities to remain "race-neutral".

And you think I'd believe something like that because I'm against anything that has race as a consideration? I think that's more telling of your own train of thought than it is mine.

timujin: Is subby suggesting that a straight, white male can't be discriminated against on the basis of his sexual orientation or race? Did you read TFA?

THIS.


liam76: kwame: Understanding people who speak broken English is a skill. Learning to understand a professor like that is part of the education they came for. They're just too busy whining about it to realize that.

That isn't part of the education I went to college for. If that is what someone wanted why not just get a low paying job in any big city, you will deal with plenty of people who don't speak english.

One more reason to make English proficiency mandatory for citizenship and to penalize employers (and their contractors) heavily for their questionable non-use of US citizens.

eraser8: No. I call people delusional because they don't have a very good understanding of how the process works

True; that has nothing to do with my posts, though. I have no dealings with admissions offices, for the record. I was talking about faculty (and minority grant funding).

Doesn't matter what you argue. What matters is what's going to happen. See you in 50 years, gringo. We can "debate" then. Lol.

And for the record, I NEVER claimed that any of this was LEGAL (though at least one court did agree that it was). I just said it HAPPENED. Often. I sure as fark am not complaining; I love it. It is very, very easy, however, when hiring in academia to say, "Hmmm, well, yeah, you have lots of pubs, but your program of research does not seem as long-term as this other person."

eraser8: tonesskin: Is that where you learned to call people delusional because you disagree with them?

No. I call people delusional because they don't have a very good understanding of how the process works. When you see it up close and personal, you lose this...conviction regarding the supossed unfairness of how the admissions process works.

And I really do apologize if you've felt insulted by my posts. That really wasn't my intention. I just feel strongly that diversity is important for the educational mission of schools. And, I feel that most people have a dim understanding of what goes on behind the doors of the admissions office.

I know you're the expert on all things admissions because you have some brief experience with them at some point. What is really delusional is that you think that in the entire realm of academia admissions and hiring, there are no biased or unfair considerations given. I don't know how much evidence you need to see to admit you're wrong, but your stubborness is starting to look unsettlingly similar to the religious zealots that still claim that dinosaurs never existed

eraser8: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: All things being equal, pick the one with the darkest complexion. Awesome.

That's not right at all.

When an admissions office -- whether for the undergraduate college or for a graduate or professional division -- makes a decision to admit or deny, the decision isn't based solely on the qualities of the candidate. In other words, the office isn't admitting a student so much as it's admitting a class. And the criteria that ultimately determine admission cut across a number of dimensions.

Race CAN be one factor in making decisions...but, this is very important...race can NEVER mean the admission of an unqualified or underqualified candidate. Otherwise, the whole purpose of the admissions process is lost.

Yes you're correct, but just because you recognize the importance of justice in the admissions process, and you can make claims that "race can NEVER.." does not change the facts or reality

doubled99: It is impossible for anyone who is not in the minority to be discriminated against.



/and people wonder where racism comes from...

When the minority does the discrimination it is no less discrimination. Never mind that the European-descent white male is becoming a minority versus the various Third World based ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

This needed to be posted again, white victimization is the new dogma of the American right.

eraser8: And I really do apologize if you've felt insulted by my posts. That really wasn't my intention. I just feel strongly that diversity is important for the educational mission of schools. And, I feel that most people have a dim understanding of what goes on behind the doors of the admissions office.

Diversity of what? I love the people who don't thinkt hey are racist, but assume having people of different colors = diversity.

Any value placed on skin based diversity (or any type of diversity) hurts whatever other admission standard you have and is unfair to anyone who isn't of the preffered minority group.

You think that is biased, let me tell you how hard it is to get admitted to Hogwarts! They are totally racist there!

eraser8: jst3p: So grades and test scores are the only criteria used to judge admissions?

It depends on the school doing the admitting. For Law Schools, the reports from the LSDAS are awfully, awfully important.

What schools use only grades, test scores and race as admittance criteria? The scenario you described, where the applicants were exactly equal, can only happen under these circumstances. Where, specifically, is it happening?

eraser8: That's not right at all.

When an admissions office -- whether for the undergraduate college or for a graduate or professional division -- makes a decision to admit or deny, the decision isn't based solely on the qualities of the candidate. In other words, the office isn't admitting a student so much as it's admitting a class. And the criteria that ultimately determine admission cut across a number of dimensions.

Race CAN be one factor in making decisions...but, this is very important...race can NEVER mean the admission of an unqualified or underqualified candidate. Otherwise, the whole purpose of the admissions process is lost.

That is pretty pathetic.

You are defending an admission criteria that says hey you are qualified enough, but the wrong skin color for the class we want, sorry no dice. That is wrong, no matter what your color of choice is.

8.5 tailed fox: You think that is biased, let me tell you how hard it is to get admitted to Hogwarts! They are totally racist there!

The Jedi academy wont take me because I harbor much fear and hate. Farkers, I'll show them!

eraser8: tonesskin: Is that where you learned to call people delusional because you disagree with them?

No. I call people delusional because they don't have a very good understanding of how the process works. When you see it up close and personal, you lose this...conviction regarding the supossed unfairness of how the admissions process works.

And I really do apologize if you've felt insulted by my posts. That really wasn't my intention. I just feel strongly that diversity is important for the educational mission of schools. And, I feel that most people have a dim understanding of what goes on behind the doors of the admissions office.

Dude man i am familiar with Law Schools too. I just went through the process. What you are saying might hold true at the top 10 schools and the bottom 30. However, those middle ones (where most people apply to they are admitting individual's far below their min 25% on GPA and LSAT. How you can deal with Law Admissions and not see that is beyond me.

Not that messed with me all that much I got in everywhere I applied (and got free money too)

Smart and white, if only I was not fat I would be set for life.

untaken_name: So, willful ignorance in the face of overwhelming evidence. We're either dealing with a troll or an academic, folks. Either way, we're wasting our time.

Man, this guy's good.
Hat's off, trollraser8.

Bombsauce: eraser8: ShillinTheVillain: 3.74, 33 ACT, 1510 SAT. Not good enough my ass. More like not dark enough.

I instead went to the U of Florida on the National Merit Scholarship. My requirements to keep the scholarship were higher than minorities on the same scholarship. So, there ya go.

You simply weren't good enough. It's a tough thing to have to deal with...but, you should accept it.

The complaint usually isn't that the white person isn't good enough. Most of the time they aren't. The issue raised is when a minority is clearly even further sub-par and they still get admitted.

Last time I checked national merit finalists were in the top 1/10th of 1 percent for the qualifying test.

eraser8: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: All things being equal, pick the one with the darkest complexion. Awesome.

That's not right at all.

When an admissions office -- whether for the undergraduate college or for a graduate or professional division -- makes a decision to admit or deny, the decision isn't based solely on the qualities of the candidate. In other words, the office isn't admitting a student so much as it's admitting a class. And the criteria that ultimately determine admission cut across a number of dimensions.

Race CAN be one factor in making decisions...but, this is very important...race can NEVER mean the admission of an unqualified or underqualified candidate. Otherwise, the whole purpose of the admissions process is lost.

Then remove that technicality that makes it possible to get around the discrimination law.

eraser8: Take my school, for example. There are roughly 30,000 applicants for 1,600 places. There are more than enough applicants for every single admit to have a 4.0+ GPA (there are about 3.5 times as many, in fact). There are more than enough applicants for every single admit to have an SAT score above the 99% percentile.

My school didn't have to worry about the dregs. And if you were black or Latino or Native American and were admitted to the school, you were absolutely as qualified as any other admit. Guaranteed.

You misunderstand me. In any class there is going to be some portion that doesn't have scores as high as the rest, unless you are implying everyone in your class had a 4.0 and was in 99%.

Did black and latino's that were admitted have the exact same average GPA as the whites and asians? If not they weren't as qualified.


eraser8: This is the perspective that I come from. Read Derek Bok*'s The Shape of River to learn more.

Odd you should bring that up. this article covering it seems to agree with me.

Schools at which the average white or Asian student has SAT scores in the top 3 percent to 4 percent of all test-takers are accepting black students with average scores at the 75th percentile, as well as lower high school grade-point averages. Moreover, beneficiaries of preferences already are overwhelmingly middle class; racial identity is the decisive factor in their admission. It's now undeniable that colleges are employing a racial double standard on behalf of many privileged students.

eraser8: Oxygen_Thief: Smart and white, if only I was not fat I would be set for life.

Tell me: would you have preferred to have been born black? Seriously.

Can I pick my parents?

eraser8: liam76: And no they don't. They want the cream of the crop. In any pool some admits are going to be the bottom of the barrel.

That's totally untrue.

Take my school, for example. There are roughly 30,000 applicants for 1,600 places. There are more than enough applicants for every single admit to have a 4.0+ GPA (there are about 3.5 times as many, in fact). There are more than enough applicants for every single admit to have an SAT score above the 99% percentile.

My school didn't have to worry about the dregs. And if you were black or Latino or Native American and were admitted to the school, you were absolutely as qualified as any other admit. Guaranteed.

This is the perspective that I come from. Read Derek Bok*'s The Shape of River to learn more.

* a 1951 graduate of my school and president emeritus of Harvard University

Yet your school ends up having more bluebloods. Go figure why.

eraser8: I wonder why. Hmmmmm.



Then again, I'm convinced you're a troll at this point.

cretinbob: timujin: Is subby suggesting that a straight, white male can't be discriminated against on the basis of his sexual orientation or race? Did you read TFA?

This

No, subby is suggesting it's weird because it generally happens the other way around.

See also: "duh"

eraser8: Oxygen_Thief: Smart and white, if only I was not fat I would be set for life.

Tell me: would you have preferred to have been born black? Seriously.

I was born Slavic..but all caucasoid's are the same remeber?

eraser8: But, what you've ignored is the fact that these preferences were never really seriously challenged until skin color was added into the mix. Again, I wonder why. Hmmmmm.

I haven't ignored it, it isn't relevant here.

It amazes me that your defense of preferences for minorities based on race is that admissions used to be racist for whites. Which misses my point. It was wrong to do it when your prefer whites, and it is wrong to do it when you prefer blacks. enjoy your double standard, gym in 26 minutes.

jst3p: eraser8: jst3p: So grades and test scores are the only criteria used to judge admissions?

It depends on the school doing the admitting. For Law Schools, the reports from the LSDAS are awfully, awfully important.

What schools use only grades, test scores and race as admittance criteria? The scenario you described, where the applicants were exactly equal, can only happen under these circumstances. Where, specifically, is it happening?

serial_crusher: The college wanted to terminate Marosan, a native of Hungary, because of his accent ...

ok, that's a legitimate reason to fire a college professor in my opinion. If the class can't understand your lecture, they're not going to get the education they came for.

I sat through several wasted semesters of mandatory for my major classes taught by someone no one in the class could understand I could not feel more strongly about this. Fire people who can't speak understandable English as professors. We spent the second go-around with him talking about Buffy because we all just gave up.

eraser8: children of alumni

eraser8: Oxygen_Thief: Smart and white, if only I was not fat I would be set for life.

Tell me: would you have preferred to have been born black? Seriously.

What is wrong being born Black?

eraser8: I disagree. Why make such a spectacle over the inclusion of racial diversity in the admission of classes when there was hardly a peep over the preferences for children of alumni?

fwiw, I have griped about both to my school's admissions office; turned out I was wrong, and that they didn't use alumni-spawn admissions at all. Is there objective data about alumni-spawn and racial preference admissions?

Actually it does

Here is what im thinking your trying to get me to do...You want me to say no I am happy being white because there still exists racism against blacks (which there is I do live in the South so we have "country people".

Then you can turn around and call me a racist or that my arguments which you know to be true are not valid. (you know since you went after the joke instead of my argument.

Am I close?

Blacks have been mistreated in this country for centuries...my ethnic group have been forced into Slavery for so long the word slave comes from slavic and were slaves as recently as the 1940's..so suck on that.

The Argument against Affermitive Action is that (I think most are making) is that it has simply gone to far and Law Admissions are a perfect example of that.

Rather be a black American then a Polish Jew during the 40's

///yes I am feeding the trolls drunk posting is fun.

tonesskin: eraser8: Oxygen_Thief: Smart and white, if only I was not fat I would be set for life.

Tell me: would you have preferred to have been born black? Seriously.

What is wrong being born Black?

No, but driving while black is in many areas.

eraser8: tonesskin: eraser8: Oxygen_Thief: Smart and white, if only I was not fat I would be set for life.

Tell me: would you have preferred to have been born black? Seriously.

What is wrong being born Black?

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I asked whether Oxygen_Thief would have preferred it.

If, as he implied, being born black was somehow a benefit in life, surely there must have been some preference, however repressed, to have been born that skin color.

Even larger cock. The ability to jump.

eraser8: Oxygen_Thief: Actually it does

Here is what im thinking your trying to get me to do...You want me to say no I am happy being white because there still exists racism against blacks (which there is I do live in the South so we have "country people".

Then you can turn around and call me a racist or that my arguments which you know to be true are not valid. (you know since you went after the joke instead of my argument.

Am I close?

Blacks have been mistreated in this country for centuries...my ethnic group have been forced into Slavery for so long the word slave comes from slavic and were slaves as recently as the 1940's..so suck on that.

The Argument against Affermitive Action is that (I think most are making) is that it has simply gone to far and Law Admissions are a perfect example of that.

Rather be a black American then a Polish Jew during the 40's

///yes I am feeding the trolls drunk posting is fun.

You've certainly posted drunkenly...but, you haven't answered the question: would have preferred to have been born black?

why should it matter? honestly never something that ever entered into my head except for that one south park episode were Kyle wants to play basketball.

would you rather have been born white?

If i was a person with substandard scores applying to top law schools your dang sure I would rather be black.