All of the above. Except I'm suprised it took this long. It will always be a niche "sport". Trying to mainstream Kyle Busch & friends down our throat like it's anything more than it is: boring-ass left turn after left turn until the only exciting part happens - a crash.

The only exciting part is someone may get killed. That's f*cked up. Once in awhile there's the close finish, but that's like watching basketball: you could have skipped the whole thing and just watched the last 30 seconds.

jake_lex: He does seem to be to racing what Roger Federer is to tennis - undeniably one of the best ever, but possessing almost zero personality, so the sport he so dominates can't really use him to bring in new fans.

Except, with tennis fans, watching Federer dominate is more visually stunning than NASCAR fans watching JJ win. You can see every serve and every volley that Roger makes and most tennis fans watch professionals to help their own game, whether it be competing in local and regional tournaments or just recreational matches with a friend. It's a more tangible relationship between Federer and his fans. Even non-Federer fans can still watch and appreciate how dominating he is (was?...he's kind of on the downhill side of an absolutely incredible career).

That being said, what's happening with NASCAR is actually quite fascinating to me. I'm not a fan, but I went to a couple races as a kid with my father. It's interesting that back in the late 90s, early 2000s, NASCAR was the FASTEST growing "sport" in the world, statistically when accounting for television viewers, ticket sales, advertising dollars, and merchandise sales. I can understand it maxing out its potential, but actually losing 50% of its fanbase is downright intriguing. You can attribute a lot of it to the economy, when you realize who most NASCAR fans are (lower to mid-level middle class). Those are the people whose disposable income is hurt the most during the recession and all of a sudden spending $150/ea. on tickets to a race isn't all that feasible.

That doesn't account for everything though.

car goes left repeat for 500 miles.

A 4 hour left turn, what's not to like?

Step 1: Cultivate fanbase of lower/middle-class, concentrated in the south.
Step 2: Systematically move races out of the south, into parts of the country selected less for their interest in the sport than their market size and lack of proximity to other NASCAR events. (Anybody really give a damn about Fontana? Or New Hampshire? Or Kansas? Anyone?)
Step 3: Add recession, making those same lower/middle class fans unable to attend even the southern races.

It's like the NHL's southern equivalent, except more at the mercy of the overall economy.

[guy with 3 shaved in back hair.jpg]

been to one race free on my wife's work. It was Chicagoland Speedway in 2007. It was BORING AS HELL. the only thing that happened was a crash on the 3rd to last lap and everyone throwing bottles at Jeff Gordon when he won (after wiping out Matt Kenseth) Chicago races are boring as the track is too wide open.
As for the rest of the sport, I agree that most of the drivers have no charisma. I wouldn't recognize Jimmy Johnson if he sat next to me on a bus. I could say that for a lot of other drivers as well. It's gone from good ol' boys to milquetoast midwesterners. The sport also needs a proper villain again. Kyle Busch is just a douchebag. Juan Pablo needs to win a couple of races, so that the hillbillies could root against him.

Having been a fan for a long time and living 1 mile from the Daytona Speedway I used to go to all the races. I now stay home and watch if there is nothing else to do mainly because since Dale Sr.'s death the racing has become alot like professional wrestling.It is obvious that Hendrick Racing and GM are favored probably because of money generated for NASCAR souvineers and advertising dollars. Toyota has taken over Ford's standing as number two money generator so they get the occasional win but GM is the number 1 favorite of NASCAR. I do not see this as in a " tinfoil hat conspiracy" way but look at the reality of the racing. The recent Dale Jr. win in the number 3 tribute car is a prime example of the orchestration of the events. I hope they can return to some real competitive racing but until then I will look for other uses for my entertainment dollar.

NASCAR and their TV contract(s), I cannot watch any races after FOX's coverage is done!

BBH: NASCAR and their TV contract(s), I cannot watch any races after FOX's coverage is done!

In fairness, TNT has gotten a little better since they got rid of Weber and ESPN's presentation is getting better as well.

Fox's presentation, if anything, has gone a bit DOWNHILL with the pre-race show shenanigans and the pimping out of Digger. Digger was FINE the first season, but Fox totally overdid it the second and third seasons.

Personally, I think of lot of this has to do with Dale Jr. failing. He was supposed to be The One. But he never caught up with his potential, too many daddy issues, and I think he could possibly be gay and closeted.

NA$CRAP'S problem is that they haven't figured out how to throw enough yellow flags so that they can let Junior win.

Nascar? The only thing I find entertaining about that sport is the crashes.
And the high pitched voice you hear when they interview the drivers. Its even more funny when they have one of those hillbilly accents.

Personally I rather watch the driver's wives in a string bikini watch their cars for a good hour on tv. That would be good nascar entertainment.

Nascar? The only thing I find entertaining about that sport is the crashes.
And the high pitched voice you hear when they interview the drivers. Its even more funny when they have one of those hillbilly accents.

Personally I rather watch the driver's wives in a string bikini watch wash their cars for a good hour on tv. That would be good nascar entertainment.

GoteamVenture: car goes left repeat for 500 miles.

And yet for decades, the Indy 500, which is left turns for 3+ hours, was bigger than the super bowl and world series combined.

/thanks, Tony for ruining both CART and the Indy500.

How long has the Chase been in place? Hmmmmm....

NASCAR's problem is the same as most other series: you can have cars that are fast, or cars that can race close. NASCAR seems to have hit the limit with their cars, and they've become aero-dependant. Cars can't pass easily, and it turns into a pit-road shuffle. They've also hit the reliability wall: even into the mid=90's the fast cars broke more than the slower cars, making it a balancing act. Now everyone can just go full-out all the way. The fast cars stay fast, and win more races, and get more money, and go faster...it's a weird sort of death spiral.

Not really sure if there _is_ a good solution to the problem. Any top-level racing encounters it...what usually seems to happen is a total or near-total collapse, and what used to be Tier 2 becoming the new Tier 1. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Idea:

Take half the cars and make them go in one direction on the track. Take the other half and make them go the other direction.

Ticket Prices, and the fact that you don't just 'show up at game time' for a race. It typically is a weekend event where people camp and stay at the track all weekend. NASCAR simply isn't designed, or marketed to the 'show up go home' sports watchers and their ticket prices aren't catered towards it either.

I live about an hour and a half from MIS, and we camped out there one weekend a few years back. Race got rained out both days, but the parking area around the track was packed both days as people slept in their cars waiting to get the race in. Most of the people around us drove at least 8+ hours to come to the track, so jumping back in their cars and going home then coming back isn't an option.

I vowed then, If I ever went back, we would always just drive down for the day instead of camping. What a waste of effing time and money because you're essentially at the mercy of whatever is at the track if you end up stranded there waiting for a race to start because of weather.

NASCAR's biggest problem is that the TV coverage is so good now it is more fun to watch it at home than it is to go through all of the hassle and expense to go to the track.

I prefer F1 due to the tracks. Ovals, tri-ovals and whatnot are just boring to watch. If NASCAR went to, say, Laguna Seca, I might watch that.

State_College_Arsonist: I prefer F1 due to the tracks. Ovals, tri-ovals and whatnot are just boring to watch. If NASCAR went to, say, Laguna Seca, I might watch that.

Not that I'm defending oval racing.. but Honestly, Road courses are almost more boring.. especially at the F1 and NASCAR level. The field gets spread way out, and a lot of times no one can pass except for a few spots and they only get so many opportunities to do so - it becomes less of a race against your opponents and becomes more a race against the track and time.

Maybe that's why I only really like WRC (Rally) which is stage racing, one car, the track, and time. At least I know that only one car will be seen at a time, instead of being sold a 'race' only to see a parade.

State_College_Arsonist: I prefer F1 due to the tracks. Ovals, tri-ovals and whatnot are just boring to watch. If NASCAR went to, say, Laguna Seca, I might watch that.

I can't imagine the number of wrecks the corkscrew would cause.

I saw this coming a few years ago when the 'New To NASCAR' fans turned out to be mostly teenage girls who posted things like this on the SpeedTv message boards:

OMG, Kasey's eyes are lokking rite in2 my sole!

and

'What's up with Jr's hair, did he die it?'

Then NASCAR intentionally marketed to them by giving us Joey Logano and the Busch Brothers.

FirstNationalBastard: Lack of Ward Burton is what made NASCAR go downhill.

His final race was in 2007... roughly the same time NASCAR attendance started going downhill.

Coincidence? I think not!

I always thought Ward should be in the booth, because that would be awesome.

Bruce Campbell: I can't imagine the number of wrecks the corkscrew would cause.

-That's probably correct, though I have to wonder what the ratings would be like for such a race. Still, my point was that NASCAR tracks don't have many highly-technical turns.

Drakuun: Maybe that's why I only really like WRC (Rally) which is stage racing, one car, the track, and time. At least I know that only one car will be seen at a time, instead of being sold a 'race' only to see a parade.

-I like WRC just fine, though it can be hard to find coverage in the US. WRC drivers seem to have a special brand of insanity that makes driving down dirt roads at 100mph seem just fine, and that appeals to me.

Nascar is somewhere below soccer in excitement and resulting watchability.

It would be awesome tho. But Im a montoya fan and I know his chances would be greater.

jpinksto: Nascar is somewhere below soccer in excitement and resulting watchability.

Indeed.

I tune into NAPCAR when I need a snooze.

NASCAR needs a real life Ricky Bobby.

Ya know what might help? Not being a spec series.





these two cars, in their context, are EXTREMELY INNOVATIVE

Ball of Confusion: Ya know what might help? Not being a spec series.

these two cars, in their context, are EXTREMELY INNOVATIVE

Quiet, you'll give the F1 geeks the vapors.

OTOH, if you have to go that far back to get to some actual innovation, that could be a problem.

MFAWG: FirstNationalBastard: Lack of Ward Burton is what made NASCAR go downhill.

His final race was in 2007... roughly the same time NASCAR attendance started going downhill.

Coincidence? I think not!

I always thought Ward should be in the booth, because that would be awesome.

Yes because Jackie Stewart was just too easy to understand.

Who is to blame for NASCAR losing nearly half of its audience over the past four years? NASCAR for crappy cars? The drivers for riding around and collecting million-dollar checks? The media for reporting how boring the sport has become?

D) Rednecks finally got around to seeing Taladega Nights.

MFAWG: Ball of Confusion: Ya know what might help? Not being a spec series.

these two cars, in their context, are EXTREMELY INNOVATIVE

Quiet, you'll give the F1 geeks the vapors.

OTOH, if you have to go that far back to get to some actual innovation, that could be a problem.


I'm one of those F1 geeks. Actually, my first love is sports car endurance racing. But any big-bore top-level pro racing is fine by me. As the task becomes simpler [only turning left, for example] then the skill required to stay ahead of the field is that much greater. While boring to the person who only sees cars going left, I find it fascinating that set-up/tuning and strategy are so important [not just racecraft]

I'm a racing fan not a NASCAR fan as such, so if there are newer cars that are just as innovative, I'm ignorant of them for not having followed the series very closely. Please point them out to me if they exist.

Personally, I think of lot of this has to do with Dale Jr. failing. He was supposed to be The One. But he never caught up with his potential, too many daddy issues, and I think he could possibly be gay and closeted.

I heard a couple of rumors awhile back that Junior and Stewart were
"very close friends" but Stewart dumped him for Kasey Kahne.

Gosling

You'd be surprised learning about how much NHIS means to New England. What you meant to say was "Pocono". The only reason Pocono has two races is because Ontario Motor Speedway went bankrupt and Bill France begged Mattoli to take it.

FirstNationalBastard: WSUCanuck: Gosling

You'd be surprised learning about how much NHIS means to New England. What you meant to say was "Pocono". The only reason Pocono has two races is because Ontario Motor Speedway went bankrupt and Bill France begged Mattoli to take it.

Yes, but to those older fans left that aren't in New England, NHIS means "THOSE MOTHERfarkERS TOOK NORTH WILKESBORO FROM US!!1!"

That really was the beginning of the end, wasn't it?

NASCAR is as boring as watching live Golf tournaments.

Ball of Confusion: MFAWG: Ball of Confusion: Ya know what might help? Not being a spec series.

these two cars, in their context, are EXTREMELY INNOVATIVE

Quiet, you'll give the F1 geeks the vapors.

OTOH, if you have to go that far back to get to some actual innovation, that could be a problem.


I'm one of those F1 geeks. Actually, my first love is sports car endurance racing. But any big-bore top-level pro racing is fine by me. As the task becomes simpler [only turning left, for example] then the skill required to stay ahead of the field is that much greater. While boring to the person who only sees cars going left, I find it fascinating that set-up/tuning and strategy are so important [not just racecraft]

I'm a racing fan not a NASCAR fan as such, so if there are newer cars that are just as innovative, I'm ignorant of them for not having followed the series very closely. Please point them out to me if they exist.

The Number 13 Chevelle was on of the most illegal cars ever brought to a Nascar race. It was built by Smokey Yunik to 7/8ths scale of a real Chevelle, it is the reason Nascar went to templates.

Smokey also had some other interesting cheats, like filling the roll cage full of fuel to get an extra few gallons at the end of the race, and filling the tires with lead shot, so when the car was weighed in it passed inspection for minimum weight, then after the 1st pit stop the car would be 400lbs lighter. He got caught when a race official wondered why it took 2 crew members to lift the tire over the wall.

As for modern innovation shortly before the POS COT was introduced Jeff Gordon showed up to a race with a car that blew the field away, after the race NASCAR impounded the car and while the car wasn't breaking any rules they were bent so far that NASCAR told his team not to bring that car to another race.

FirstNationalBastard: MFAWG: FirstNationalBastard: WSUCanuck: Gosling

You'd be surprised learning about how much NHIS means to New England. What you meant to say was "Pocono". The only reason Pocono has two races is because Ontario Motor Speedway went bankrupt and Bill France begged Mattoli to take it.

Yes, but to those older fans left that aren't in New England, NHIS means "THOSE MOTHERfarkERS TOOK NORTH WILKESBORO FROM US!!1!"

That really was the beginning of the end, wasn't it?

It did signal a shift from tracks having a race based on good racing to tracks having a race based on who has the biggest TV Market.

True enough, but in retrospect it was an even more fundamental negative message:

The tracks and fans that made the sport what it was were no longer necessary or even desired. From then on it would just be about the dollars. If your track didn't have skyboxes and luxury condo's, you were ass out. If the fans couldn't pony up megabux for a 3 day ticket AND a PSL, fark them.

And now they are reaping what they sewed.