This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

Why would a high school student have a credit card to begin with?

all the good names are gone: Why would a high school student have a credit card to begin with?

Parents gave it to them.

You should see my old high school. To those kids, the credit card isn't an emergency tool; it's a license to spend.

Anyone who has a bank issued credit card deserves to get boned.

/that should be in large print on any cc application
//it could be and people would still be stupid enough to get one

Legal documents are more complex than People magazine! Get the pitchforks!

"reading level" is usually determined by word size. Which is basically meaningless, since lots of 'big' words are actually quite simple, and if you're not weapons-grade retarded, you can look up words of any length.

I've never understood how people have such trouble reading big words, but I was also reading 12th grade level in like 6th grade and I'm reading a 3000 page series right now for fun, and that's nothing out of the ordinary.

fark high-school graduates, I bet your average BA holder can't comprehend them.

namatad: GAT_00: I've never understood how people have such trouble reading big words, but I was also reading 12th grade level in like 6th grade and I'm reading a 3000 page series right now for fun, and that's nothing out of the ordinary.

why would you re-read atlas shrugged??

Heh. I actually read Gone With The Wind in 7th, 8th grade, something like that, for an Accelerated Reader program. It was me and two other nerds in a race to the top, but I didn't care enough and I got 3rd. And what I'm reading right now is weird as hell and if the cover was honest about it, I would have never started the series. It's a Peter Hamilton series, book one of three is called The Reality Dysfunction.

Oh, and I read history, things like that for fun. I've got The Rise and Fall of Great Powers still waiting for me to read, and I don't think I quite finished The People's History of the United States; I think I still have the rest of Clinton left. Great book BTW if you want to hate Libertarians, it shows their paradise of the early Industrial era like they want people to really forget.

FishyFred: This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

Only for the first five or six times you read over a contract. At that point it comes pretty naturally.

Which you should have done before you hit 17, so I'm not really feeling sympathy for the deadbeats here.

mamoru: Didn't President Obama give a speech recently that was analyzed to be at a 9th or 10th grade level and was criticized on that because most Americans wouldn't understand it?

How many of those Americans have credit cards? :p

He did, it was at a 10th grade level and people complained about that. It made me think back to the days when voting wasn't a right and wonder if the founding fathers were on to something.

The restrictions based on land ownership, race and gender are wrong, but I kind of like the idea where you only get to vote if you pay at least one cent more in taxes than you receive in government aid.

Or: why college students will sign up for one in exchange for a pizza or t-shirt.

Jim_Callahan: FishyFred: This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

Only for the first five or six times you read over a contract. At that point it comes pretty naturally.



Being comfortable reading it doesn't mean that you have the knowledge to understand it.

Legalese isn't just complicated English - it is a specialized trade language, and certain words and phrases carry meaning that no amount of reading comprehension could reveal.

Using ease-of-reading algorithms on legalese is meaningless.

GAT_00:
Oh, and I read history, things like that for fun. I've got The Rise and Fall of Great Powers still waiting for me to read, and I don't think I quite finished The People's History of the United States; I think I still have the rest of Clinton left. Great book BTW if you want to hate Libertarians, it shows their paradise of the early Industrial era like they want people to really forget.

Good choice on People's History - I love that book, though the best parts are definitely prior to Nixon. That's the often-romanticized period of history during middle & high school, and even in many lower-division college courses. Depresses the hell out of me, I'll tell you.

You might want to jump over to some Jared Diamond (Guns, Germs & Steel, etc) when you have a chance - nice anthropological perspective on history there, and a good change of pace when you get tired of reading straight politics.

After that, I think you generally need to get into more specialized texts to get much out of it, depending on what you're interested in. I think what surprises most people is how rapidly our perspective can shift on history as details come to light, and how much less of it is "settled" than many people seem to think from their HS/early college educations...

/Oh,, and credit cards fit in there somewhere, probably. It's towards the back.

What everyone needs to know about the new credit card system.

The companies can change the agreement at any time
You will be paying out the ass

NovaeDeArx: GAT_00:
Oh, and I read history, things like that for fun. I've got The Rise and Fall of Great Powers still waiting for me to read, and I don't think I quite finished The People's History of the United States; I think I still have the rest of Clinton left. Great book BTW if you want to hate Libertarians, it shows their paradise of the early Industrial era like they want people to really forget.

Good choice on People's History - I love that book, though the best parts are definitely prior to Nixon. That's the often-romanticized period of history during middle & high school, and even in many lower-division college courses. Depresses the hell out of me, I'll tell you.

You might want to jump over to some Jared Diamond (Guns, Germs & Steel, etc) when you have a chance - nice anthropological perspective on history there, and a good change of pace when you get tired of reading straight politics.

After that, I think you generally need to get into more specialized texts to get much out of it, depending on what you're interested in. I think what surprises most people is how rapidly our perspective can shift on history as details come to light, and how much less of it is "settled" than many people seem to think from their HS/early college educations...

/Oh,, and credit cards fit in there somewhere, probably. It's towards the back.

I'm still waiting for my copy of Deer Hunting With Jesus to come in. It's the first book I've bought in years.

GAT_00: namatad: GAT_00: It's a Peter Hamilton series, book one of three is called The Reality Dysfunction.

i absolutely loathed that series...

/end threadjack.

Stibium:
I'm still waiting for my copy of Deer Hunting With Jesus to come in. It's the first book I've bought in years.

Huh - just checked that out on Amazon. Looks pretty good... Any idea if there's anything "new" in there, or is it just humanizing the known issues of working poverty in America?

'Cause, you know, I need to stretch that booze and hooker budget a little further. "Uncertain times", and all that, wot?

FishyFred: This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

When I used to draw up contracts for actors back in my film days I was fluent in faux-legalese, or as I preferred to call it, "legal engineering."

ChocolateCoveredBacon: FishyFred: This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

When I used to draw up contracts for actors back in my film days I was fluent in faux-legalese, or as I preferred to call it, "legal engineering."

Heh, yeah. Employers hate me sometimes, since I have a nasty habit of pointing out those large swaths of contract that are purely fantasy and unenforcable, existing just to make employees THINK they don't have certain rights.

If you think you don't have that in your own employment agreement/contract, think again. Odds are that major chunks about suits against employers, etc are often total BS to keep you from consulting a lawyer after they do you wrong... Just sayin'.

If "the average adult reads at a ninth-grade level", then SOMETHING IS REALLY F*CKING WRONG THERE.

Just think about how stupid the average person is, then realize half of them are stupider than that.

Unfamiliar terms, 12 page small pamphlet style squeezed in your statement, 7-8 pt font so you have to squint to read it. It may not be that complicated in actual terminology (although some of it will due to disclosure laws), but it is intimidating as hell to the average individual to try and read it.

Consumers get psyched out, enter with the wrong frame of mind, and give up or don't even try to read it. Set up enough hurdles and a person gives up, especially when they lack much motivation to dig into the issue in the first place. This is before you get to whether or not they can understand the actual terms given the lack of financial knowledge most people possess. It is easier for most people to think of it as a free money card and let the bank have their way with you.

Rambino: Jim_Callahan: FishyFred: This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

Only for the first five or six times you read over a contract. At that point it comes pretty naturally.



Being comfortable reading it doesn't mean that you have the knowledge to understand it.

Legalese isn't just complicated English - it is a specialized trade language, and certain words and phrases carry meaning that no amount of reading comprehension could reveal.

Using ease-of-reading algorithms on legalese is meaningless.

It's not like you're going to suffer magical amnesia after having things explained to you the first time. Contract jargon is not something that's a unique and special snowflake with every contract -- a cell phone contract uses roughly the same language as a housing contract uses about the same language as a credit card contract. You don't have to master the language to follow court proceedings or ensure compliance of your business with financial regulations, you just need to know the language used in consumer-supplier contracts, which is a pretty thin sliver of jargon.

If people were as stupid as you're making them out to be, then MMOs would be farked, since after years of playing people still wouldn't know what "noob", "htfu", etc meant.

what she said.

I Am The Egg Matt Drudge Smears Upon His Body: Anyone who has a bank issued credit card deserves to get boned.

I agree, but would stipulate one exception.

So dumb it down, then in a couple years we can hear the complaint "the credit cards companies are treating us like children with their simplified legalese!"

Because "If you don't pay your bill on time, or go beyond your credit limit, we will charge you more money" is hard to understand at any reading comprehension level.

mamoru: Didn't President Obama give a speech recently that was analyzed to be at a 9th or 10th grade level and was criticized on that because most Americans wouldn't understand it?

How many of those Americans have credit cards? :p

The liberal media likes to write at a 3rd-grade level. That way Wolf Blitzer can understand it.

NovaeDeArx: ChocolateCoveredBacon: FishyFred: This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

When I used to draw up contracts for actors back in my film days I was fluent in faux-legalese, or as I preferred to call it, "legal engineering."

Heh, yeah. Employers hate me sometimes, since I have a nasty habit of pointing out those large swaths of contract that are purely fantasy and unenforcable, existing just to make employees THINK they don't have certain rights.

If you think you don't have that in your own employment agreement/contract, think again. Odds are that major chunks about suits against employers, etc are often total BS to keep you from consulting a lawyer after they do you wrong... Just sayin'.

You'd love the contract that the co I work for uses, or the "non disclosure" agreement that the paranoid freak made us sign 6 months ago. Each paragraph includes a "summary section" that included words like "If you say ANYTHING to ANYBODY about [crazy boss name omitted] we will SUE YOU TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW" (The random capitalization is from the actual contract... which reminds me, I need to find my random copy of that, and ask the new hires if they are being made to sign it too).

Why I don't quit? Yay student loans!

All hail, the Gobbledygook!

Rambino: Jim_Callahan: FishyFred: This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

Only for the first five or six times you read over a contract. At that point it comes pretty naturally.



Being comfortable reading it doesn't mean that you have the knowledge to understand it.

Legalese isn't just complicated English - it is a specialized trade language, and certain words and phrases carry meaning that no amount of reading comprehension could reveal.

Using ease-of-reading algorithms on legalese is meaningless.

agreed. It is tantamount to suggesting that once one learns the numbers zero through 9 they should be able to understand all the possible uses to which those numbers may be put.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be capable of taking the time to learn what they are signing, but any claims that one is ready to read through a legal document and understand it just because they passed a couple of english literature classes in high school is quite silly.

I Am The Egg Matt Drudge Smears Upon His Body: Anyone who has a bank issued credit card deserves to get boned.

/that should be in large print on any cc application
//it could be and people would still be stupid enough to get one

I've had a bank-issued credit card for 4 years. I've only carried a balance for a few months, which is while I was on training pay after switching jobs. I ended up spending something like 40 dollars in interest.

Since then, I've received 3 checks for 80 dollars apiece from my rewards points.

What's so stupid about that arrangement?

jack21221: I Am The Egg Matt Drudge Smears Upon His Body: Anyone who has a bank issued credit card deserves to get boned.

/that should be in large print on any cc application
//it could be and people would still be stupid enough to get one

I've had a bank-issued credit card for 4 years. I've only carried a balance for a few months, which is while I was on training pay after switching jobs. I ended up spending something like 40 dollars in interest.

Since then, I've received 3 checks for 80 dollars apiece from my rewards points.

What's so stupid about that arrangement?

You getting all excited about 240 bucks.

jack21221: I Am The Egg Matt Drudge Smears Upon His Body: Anyone who has a bank issued credit card deserves to get boned.

/that should be in large print on any cc application
//it could be and people would still be stupid enough to get one

I've had a bank-issued credit card for 4 years. I've only carried a balance for a few months, which is while I was on training pay after switching jobs. I ended up spending something like 40 dollars in interest.

Since then, I've received 3 checks for 80 dollars apiece from my rewards points.

What's so stupid about that arrangement?

The part where you lie. Since no business would take in 40 $ and give out 80$ as a reward for you giving them 40$. If it doesnt make sense its not true.

AmazingRuss:

You getting all excited about 240 bucks.

You mad?

poisonedpawn78: The part where you lie. Since no business would take in 40 $ and give out 80$ as a reward for you giving them 40$. If it doesnt make sense its not true.

Actually, I could have paid 0% in interest and they'd still give me rewards points. They're betting on me getting into dire straits eventually, and maxing the thing out. Then they'll get their "investment" back plus a bunch extra. Luckily, that isn't in my plans.

I get a bunch of "blank checks" from them in the mail every month, trying to convince me to take out some kind of cash advance against my credit card. It isn't going to work.

NovaeDeArx: ChocolateCoveredBacon: FishyFred: This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

When I used to draw up contracts for actors back in my film days I was fluent in faux-legalese, or as I preferred to call it, "legal engineering."

Heh, yeah. Employers hate me sometimes, since I have a nasty habit of pointing out those large swaths of contract that are purely fantasy and unenforcable, existing just to make employees THINK they don't have certain rights.

If you think you don't have that in your own employment agreement/contract, think again. Odds are that major chunks about suits against employers, etc are often total BS to keep you from consulting a lawyer after they do you wrong... Just sayin'.

The only thing you absolutely have to understand about contracts is that they are only worth what you are willing to pay to enforce. In other words if you are not willing to litigate every single clause, phrase, and word in the contract then your contract is worth nothing.

Knowing a lawyer who specializes in contracts has given me a whole new perspective on the legal system. It also apparently scares the crap out of banks, credit card, and insurance people, because I rarely settle anymore. I'm of the opinion win lose or draw lets let the judge and the legal talking dudes decide.

Slaves2Darkness: NovaeDeArx: ChocolateCoveredBacon: FishyFred: This just in: Legalese (or faux-legalese) is confusing.

When I used to draw up contracts for actors back in my film days I was fluent in faux-legalese, or as I preferred to call it, "legal engineering."

Heh, yeah. Employers hate me sometimes, since I have a nasty habit of pointing out those large swaths of contract that are purely fantasy and unenforcable, existing just to make employees THINK they don't have certain rights.

If you think you don't have that in your own employment agreement/contract, think again. Odds are that major chunks about suits against employers, etc are often total BS to keep you from consulting a lawyer after they do you wrong... Just sayin'.

The only thing you absolutely have to understand about contracts is that they are only worth what you are willing to pay to enforce. In other words if you are not willing to litigate every single clause, phrase, and word in the contract then your contract is worth nothing.

Knowing a lawyer who specializes in contracts has given me a whole new perspective on the legal system. It also apparently scares the crap out of banks, credit card, and insurance people, because I rarely settle anymore. I'm of the opinion win lose or draw lets let the judge and the legal talking dudes decide.

Oh and piss on your gag clause, I refuse to sign any agreement, contract, or settlement that I can't talk about.

As a computer programmer an easy solution to quickly eliminate the need for most lawyers would be to simply adopt a form of pseudo code logic for all laws.

If X = True then
Y
Else if X + Z = True then
W
End Law

The sole purpose of the way legalese is structured is to be esoteric and create jobs for lawyers. The rules of society are complex enough as it stands without further obfuscating things with legalese.

poisonedpawn78: The part where you lie. Since no business would take in 40 $ and give out 80$ as a reward for you giving them 40$. If it doesnt make sense its not true.

If the bank paid out $240 to him rest assured they received at least that in discount fees paid by the merchant.

If you believe a merchant would give you a cash discount then what really happened here is that they gave him some of his own money back. If he was buying at a chain retail establishment where no negotiation can take place then he is likely ahead in having some of those discount fees returned to him.

poisonedpawn78: jack21221: I Am The Egg Matt Drudge Smears Upon His Body: Anyone who has a bank issued credit card deserves to get boned.

/that should be in large print on any cc application
//it could be and people would still be stupid enough to get one

I've had a bank-issued credit card for 4 years. I've only carried a balance for a few months, which is while I was on training pay after switching jobs. I ended up spending something like 40 dollars in interest.

Since then, I've received 3 checks for 80 dollars apiece from my rewards points.

What's so stupid about that arrangement?

The part where you lie. Since no business would take in 40 $ and give out 80$ as a reward for you giving them 40$. If it doesnt make sense its not true.

I've spent zero interest and zero fees on my Capital One rewards card, and I've redeemed probably close to $180 in cashback rewards in less than a year. I use the card for everything, except about 5 transactions a month (I make small purchases on my other cards to keep my issuer happy, and to make sure that random small amounts show up on my credit report to show use). The only months I've carried a balance, I was in a 0% interest period. So it's not unreasonable to have a situation like that at all.

meddleRPI: So it's not unreasonable to have a situation like that at all.

Right. Only a few months ago I still had a card that gave me 5% cash back on groceries and gas. I know I definitely was costing them money with that card.

blockhouse: I Am The Egg Matt Drudge Smears Upon His Body: Anyone who has a bank issued credit card deserves to get boned.

I agree, but would stipulate one exception.

This. USAA is the best freakin' bank in the world.

poisonedpawn78: The part where you lie. Since no business would take in 40 $ and give out 80$ as a reward for you giving them 40$. If it doesnt make sense its not true.

You understand that Credit Card Companies have other ways of making money beyond just the interest they charge you, right?

I have a Discover Card that I pay off every month. I earn around $200 in cash back every year and pay $0 in interest. They make far more money than that $200 in the transaction fees on my purchases alone.

Have you ever actually owned a credit card?