The reason why Bettman doesn't want NHL back here....then he can't use Winnipeg as a bargaining chip when dealing with other franchises.

"hurry, sign the deal or we move them to Winnipeg"

That little NBA dwarf should just go away

Stompn_Tom: The reason why Bettman doesn't want NHL back here....then he can't use Winnipeg as a bargaining chip when dealing with other franchises.

I've gone between wanting to believe him and wanting to punch him.

I still think the NHL will return, the failing southern experiment won't last forever, and there is more support here and elsewhere in Canada than in many of those markets.

The-Brain: Stompn_Tom: The reason why Bettman doesn't want NHL back here....then he can't use Winnipeg as a bargaining chip when dealing with other franchises.

I've gone between wanting to believe him and wanting to punch him.

I still think the NHL will return, the failing southern experiment won't last forever, and there is more support here and elsewhere in Canada than in many of those markets.

The failure of the southern expansion is inevitable in many markets, I think. The Coyotes should have been moved back, but oh well. Seems to me the Panthers, Thrashers or Predators need to be moved to Winnipeg.

tnpir: Predators

Fark you and leave my Predators alone. Take Atlanta.

GAT_00: tnpir: Predators

Fark you and leave my Predators alone. Take Atlanta.

EASY THERE, sparky. We're on the same side. Frankly I think the Panthers need to be the first to go.

tnpir: GAT_00: tnpir: Predators

Fark you and leave my Predators alone. Take Atlanta.

EASY THERE, sparky. We're on the same side. Frankly I think the Panthers need to be the first to go.

Most people here would prefer the Coyotesm actually. They were "ours" to begin with, and currently, they're the best team of the three.

...sorry.

tnpir: GAT_00: tnpir: Predators

Fark you and leave my Predators alone. Take Atlanta.

EASY THERE, sparky. We're on the same side. Frankly I think the Panthers need to be the first to go.

Heh. The Preds do have problems, but they're not the worst off. They're just always on the list of teams that should leave.

GAT_00: tnpir: GAT_00: tnpir: Predators

Fark you and leave my Predators alone. Take Atlanta.

EASY THERE, sparky. We're on the same side. Frankly I think the Panthers need to be the first to go.

Heh. The Preds do have problems, but they're not the worst off. They're just always on the list of teams that should leave.

I think that's a function of Nashville not exactly being a big-time hockey market.

Remember, I've advocated on this site many times that the NHL should move at least two teams to Canada and contract about four to six more out of existence, so I'm always looking at the teams that don't appear to have any sort of long term future. Usually, the Panthers, Lightning, Thrashers, Predators are Coyotes are at the top of the list. The sixth team is more difficult.

tnpir: The sixth team is more difficult.

I have heard the Islanders often talked about.

I would love the Peg to get their team back, however the NHL salary structure and cap still need fixing. To pull a number out of my ass, at least half the teams abide by an internal cap just to stay profitable. Another dip in the Canadian dollar, or a few bad years in some uneven markets will put some better established teams on thin ice.

The cap hasn't been successful, or at least not as successful as it needed to be. A hard cap of $5 or $6 million on individual salaries coupled with the team salary cap would go a long way to keeping smaller market teams in the green while allowing hockey crazed parts of North America be served properly. I also might mean I don't have to pay starting $40 a shot to see a lower tiered game.

Yes, the Peg could support a team, but I'm more worried that they'll get into the same situation as last time. I'm also worried about the health of some well supported franchises like the Sabres.

The-Brain: tnpir: The sixth team is more difficult.

I have heard the Islanders often talked about.

thought they are being courted to move to Queens?

situation similiar to Hartford. Except Conn.hasnt built a new arena

The only determining factor should be whether it can make money. Is it likely that it would be profitable, even if it is only moderately profitable? Then STFU Bettman and let the Prairies have their team.

I detect a lot of snobbishness in the NHL's refusal to even consider this team. The folks in Winnipeg, and the Prairies as a whole, just aren't rich enough for Bettman's liking, and he hasn't been shy about sharing that. Bettman discounts the people in Brandon or Regina who would take their kids for weekend trips to see an NHL game, the kids on a reserve up north who'd wear the t-shirts. Manitoba and Saskatchewan are provinces where people bleed hockey, and any team would gain a devoted following. But executives in the resource industries of those two provinces - oil, uranium, potash, and traditional metals mining - probably aren't likely to buy the preferred number of boxes for corporate entertaining. Is that the be-all and end-all of the NHL?

As for another team in southern Ontario, it would evidently work. It's stupid not to do it if your goal is to make money. There are 13 million people in Ontario and only two teams, and the Leafs are so pathetic that they should only really count as half a team. The population is there, the business community is there, there is constant demand. Why block it?

MugzyBrown: Reason #1: It will do nothing to grow the sport of hockey. The people there already watch hockey.

Who cares. Growth for the sake of growth is pointless. Hockey is healthy, just overextended.

Lt. Cheese Weasel: MugzyBrown: Reason #1: It will do nothing to grow the sport of hockey. The people there already watch hockey.

And if the local teams suffers while they watch other canadian teams succeed, the FAIL factor is 100x. They'll shiat all over a new team just as fast as they did the Jets after a few losing seasons. Penis envy of the Habs, Canucks, Flames and Leafs is more than your average manitoba moosehead can bear.

Wat?

Nobody in the last two decades has envied the Canucks.

Nobody in the last four decades has envied the Leafs.

Demographics???? As Québec City 100% of residents of Winnipeg follow hockey. Compare that to Phoenix or Miami...Now give a sh*at about an article from the Toronto Sports Network anyway?

Les_Nordiques: Demographics???? As Québec City 100% of residents of Winnipeg follow hockey. Compare that to Phoenix or Miami...Now who gives a sh*at about an article from the Toronto Sports Network anyway?

Les_Nordiques: Demographics???? As Québec City 100% of residents of Winnipeg follow hockey. Compare that to Phoenix or Miami...Now give a sh*at about an article from the Toronto Sports Network anyway?

Quebec City is being covered Friday. Don't let that get in the way of your knee jerking though, 'stie.

I had a fun chat with a teammate about Winnipeg, Quebec, Balsilliestan and the like. His viewpoint was that no city should take a team from another city... ever. In his words, "I'm a Red Wings fan, and we'd never have done anything like that."



/needs teammates with better history knowledge.

Fire Bettman

Mickey Redmond for commissioner

As a current resident of Atlanta, no one even knows there is an NHL franchise here, and lower-bowl tickets are something like $15.

I'd like to see the Jets back, but I'm not brainy enough to argue the economics of it.

However, I will pile on the 'Fark you Bettman' bandwagon.

whereisian: I would love the Peg to get their team back, however the NHL salary structure and cap still need fixing. To pull a number out of my ass, at least half the teams abide by an internal cap just to stay profitable. Another dip in the Canadian dollar, or a few bad years in some uneven markets will put some better established teams on thin ice.

The current salary floor is now greater than the original (2005) salary cap. Will the good times keep coming or will we have to see another lockout?

bobbette:

Nobody in the last four decades has envied the Leafs.

Check attendance figures, TV ratings and sponsorship revenue and you might want to rethink that comment

whereisian: Yes, the Peg could support a team, but I'm more worried that they'll get into the same situation as last time. I'm also worried about the health of some well supported franchises like the Sabres.

No reason to worry about Buffalo. Tom Golisano is an excellent owner, he turned the franchise around from the brink of disaster and I haven't seen/heard from any really disgruntled fans. In spite of some underachievement, the TV ratings are higher than ever and the games keep selling out. Buffalo's very loyal to their teams and players seem to like playing and living in western NY, so Buffalo's one of the few success stories.

//Golisano will have his chance to be a hero again if he can head up a group to buy the Bills

ScotterOtter: bobbette:

Nobody in the last four decades has envied the Leafs.

Check attendance figures, TV ratings and sponsorship revenue and you might want to rethink that comment

...that's not the part people aren't envious about.

Stompn_Tom: The reason why Bettman doesn't want NHL back here....then he can't use Winnipeg as a bargaining chip when dealing with other franchises.

"hurry, sign the deal or we move them to Winnipeg"

He's got plenty of those without the Peg. Kansas City, for one, has an immediately NHL-ready arena, newer than the MTS Centre, and would kill to put a team in it. Not that it's any more natural market than any other US city, but that's not important if it's just a place to threaten other teams/cities.

The-Brain: ...that's not the part people aren't envious about.

I think the Canucks and Senators might be.

Matt Foley: The-Brain: ...that's not the part people aren't envious about.

I think the Canucks and Senators might be.

Are you kidding me? There's something like a decade-long waiting list for season's tickets for the Canucks. At least a dozen people I know pay yearly fees just to stay in line. They consider it an investment for the future. Every single game has been sold out for the past 8 seasons, minus the lockout season of course.

As for ratings, you should see what this city looks like on game day for the 'Nucks, even regular season. Vancouver loves being in uniform - and it's green and blue.

I doubt you've been here during the playoffs recently, but Vancouver lives and dies for the Canucks. The only team that inspires more dedication in this country is the Habs.

bobbette: The only team that inspires more dedication in this country is the Habs.

Rrright.

Hamilton

The only Canadian market that the NHL should ever consider again is Toronto. Not Hamilton, not Vaughn, not a city that's near Toronto, but actually Toronto.

Have them work out something to use the ACC like the lakers and the clippers use the Staples Center.

Simple as that. Don't even entertain the notion of putting another team elsewhere. If you want your team to be successful, if you want your team to be profitable, if you want your team to be the 2nd most profitable team in the league, put it in Toronto.

Wouldn't a real city (no offense) like Seattle be a better market? There's also gotta be a bigger market in Canada that doesn't have a team. Hell you could move one of the Southeast teams to Houston, it might work. Florida never will, they have crap fans of all sports except college football. Tennessee should NEVER have a damn hockey team. One day Winnipeg!

TheJoe03: One day Winnipeg!

Winnipeg will get a team when they can demonstrate that they have enough local corporate backing to fill up those 47 suites on a consistent basis and can demonstrate they can keep a steady stream of season ticket holders. The latter should be fairly easy, but the corporate suite holders? Not so easy.

Pining your ticket revenue hopes on people driving 200KM from Brandon or, even worse, 570KM from Regina to catch a "weekend game" (in the middle of winter no less!) is absurd.

Mugzy touched on it, but the US expansion was less to do with ticket sales than the potential to further the brand. The NHL was almost certainly well-aware that some of the cities they moved to would be a hard sell, but that's not how businesses as big as theirs operate. There is a league-wide positive to growing the brand, even if a few clubs suffer. Also, the earnings potential of having huge metropolises like Phoenix or Atlanta come around to accepting hockey is just too big to be ignored. Sure, those franchises may fail, but the reward is worth a lot of risk. Obviously, the NHL would like to expand their brand AND have successful, well-attended franchises. But there's good reason why they've been so willing to watch certain teams struggle in various markets.

rka: Winnipeg will get a team when they can demonstrate that they have enough local corporate backing to fill up those 47 suites on a consistent basis and can demonstrate they can keep a steady stream of season ticket holders. The latter should be fairly easy, but the corporate suite holders? Not so easy.

Those boxes are already sold, completely. The Moose (AHL) have done well here, and the boxes are always full for concerts too.

The trick will not be getting new companies to commit to a box, but getting the existing ones to pay more for NHL prices. The vast majority of the boxes are split, many of them several ways.

rka: ...people driving 200KM from Brandon...

The city of Brandon has grown substantially over the past several years, but is still only around 50,000. While small by comparison, the other few dozen towns that are within an hour of Winnipeg are more likely sources of fanbase.

TheJoe03: Wouldn't a real city (no offense) like Seattle be a better market?

If Seattle wasn't willing to build a new arena to keep their NBA team, they certainly aren't going to build one in the hopes of possibly attracting an NHL team.

Besides, from what I can tell from my time visiting Seattle, interest in hockey there appeared to be approximately nil.

RminusQ: Because Guess Who sucked and the Jets were lousy anyway?

One great city

Roger Arseways: whereisian: Yes, the Peg could support a team, but I'm more worried that they'll get into the same situation as last time. I'm also worried about the health of some well supported franchises like the Sabres.

No reason to worry about Buffalo. Tom Golisano is an excellent owner, he turned the franchise around from the brink of disaster and I haven't seen/heard from any really disgruntled fans. In spite of some underachievement, the TV ratings are higher than ever and the games keep selling out. Buffalo's very loyal to their teams and players seem to like playing and living in western NY, so Buffalo's one of the few success stories.

//Golisano will have his chance to be a hero again if he can head up a group to buy the Bills

And yet despite making the playoffs, selling out a large number of games and having a lucrative tv contract, they still lost money this year. So did the Senators. Ottawa mainly lost it because of salary.

whereisian: And yet despite making the playoffs, selling out a large number of games and having a lucrative tv contract, they still lost money this year. So did the Senators. Ottawa mainly lost it because of salary.

According to whom?

And don't say Forbes. Forbes doesn't have access to the books of NHL clubs, and thus relies on a lot of guesstimates. Their estimates of franchise values are OK. But their estimates of franchise earnings and profitability need to be taken with a big grain of salt.

FWIW, Sabres ownership has said that they have been operating around the break-even point since Golisano took over the team (and are a few million in the black in years with extended playoff runs).

Doc Daneeka: And don't say Forbes

Forbes. Because you posted it last time as a source.

I'm just wondering if television broadcasting of Jets games would improve from what it was like 14 years ago...

Wanna see the Jets play on TV? Well, you'd either better hope TSN was showing an away game, or, the Leafs were in town on a Saturday.

Winnipeg doesn't seem to have either the business, or money in resident's hands to make it. What other city in North America goes out of its way to raid phone books so often for coupons?

whereisian: Doc Daneeka: And don't say Forbes

Forbes. Because you posted it last time as a source.

Yes, and since then, I have come to have some doubts about the Forbes numbers.

I suspect that the only ones who can really tell you how much money teams are making or losing are the team owners, and their bookkeepers.

It's certainly the case that NHL teams don't open their books for inspection by Forbes.

plus, Buffalo's one of the few (may be the only one now) teams that doesn't sell rights to their broadcasts. The Sabres are the producers and in charge of their TV shows, MSG really doesn't do anything more than let them use their graphic look and channel, the team sells the advertising time and everything else.

//very simplified explanation