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(Yahoo)   If you enjoy rheumatoid arthritis as much as you do tea, science has great news for you   (uk.news.yahoo.com) divider line 147
    More: Scary, rheumatoid arthritis, teas, autoimmune diseases, decaffeinated coffees, cancer patients, drinking  
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25404 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jun 2010 at 3:17 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-06-18 09:44:40 AM
TRIGONALMAYHEM: CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.

let me say that again for you:

CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.



Actually, it does imply causation. It just doesn't prove it.

From Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary:

Main Entry: imply
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form: implied ; implying
Etymology:Middle English emplien, from Anglo-French emplier to entangle - more at EMPLOY
Date:14th century

1 obsolete : ENFOLD, ENTWINE
2 : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement *rights imply obligations*
3 : to contain potentially
4 : to express indirectly *his silence implied consent*
synonyms see SUGGEST
usage see INFER


/BTW... It makes you look even more stupid when you repeat it like that.
 
2010-06-18 09:45:26 AM
By the way, a quick search of NCBI reveals:

Green tea protects rats against autoimmune arthritis by modulating disease-related immune events. (J Nutr. 2008 Nov;138(11):2111-6.)

Epigallocatechin-3-gallate inhibits IL-6 synthesis and suppresses transsignaling by enhancing soluble gp130 production. (Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2008 Sep 23;105(38):14692-7. Epub 2008 Sep 16.) - from the abstract: The results of these studies provide previously undescribed evidence of IL-6 synthesis and transsignaling inhibition by EGCG with a unique mechanism of sgp130 up-regulation, and thus hold promise as a potential therapeutic agent for RA.

Green tea polyphenol epigallocatechin 3-gallate in arthritis: progress and promise. (Arthritis Res Ther. 2010 Apr 28;12(2):208. [Epub ahead of print])

Most recent PEER REVIEWED studies would appear to contradict these claims. (at least for GREEN TEA... which as most people pointed out in this therad - you can't even tell what the fark type of tea the claims made in this article APPLY too... way to go once again popular press).
 
2010-06-18 09:46:14 AM
Man, the whole main page today is about foods killing us.
 
2010-06-18 09:47:12 AM
Damn_Conservative_Media: [...]

Most recent PEER REVIEWED studies would appear to contradict these claims. (at least for GREEN TEA... which as most people pointed out in this theradthread - you can't even tell what the fark type of tea the claims made in this article APPLY tooto... way to go once again popular press).


hmm, haven't had my morning tea yet...
 
2010-06-18 09:52:03 AM
x-caliber: I guess I know what is in the wife's future. Achy hands. Giggity.

not necessarily: does she have any of the genes associated with developing RA

my onset was after a severe cold...BUT both sides of my family have a history of early onset of RA and other auto-immune diseases (with clinical diagnoses). Some of us have participated in genetic studies and we have the associated genes. It is thought these genes provide a extra strong immune system: good if you heed to live in a germ and parasite infested environment bad if you live in a clean environment...one proposed treatment of some auto-immune diseases is to infect people with sterile tape worms...it gives the hyperactive-immune system something to do and prevents development/continuation of auto-immunity.
 
2010-06-18 09:53:04 AM
This just in:

If you enjoy random ailment as much as you do random food/drink stuff, science has great news for you: You are going to die.
 
2010-06-18 09:53:13 AM
I wonder if women who drink 4+ cups of tea a day are doing other things like living with 40 cats and never exercising.
 
2010-06-18 10:02:14 AM
Egalitarian: I wonder if women who drink 4+ cups of tea a day are doing other things like living with 40 cats and never exercising.

I live with ONE cat and work out 4-5 days a week, thank you very much! ;-)
 
2010-06-18 10:06:57 AM
Makh: Tea also causes you to be batshiat crazy with conspiracies. Just putting it out there.

Coffee, clearly the better choice.


cache.gawkerassets.com

Agrees.

/Everyone else needs to have a cup of coffee and calm down.
//Also why don't you ask Barney for a cigarette.
 
2010-06-18 10:07:47 AM
Dwight_Yeast: GAT_00: I'm so boned, as is my mother.

Heh. Dwight_Yeast is so boned. As is his mother.
 
2010-06-18 10:11:02 AM
So we're linking to Rense for 'science' from the Geek tab again?

//Somebody up-thread has a very appropriate handle.
 
2010-06-18 10:13:33 AM
HAHA!_You_cannot_kill_a_Hindu!: Egalitarian: I wonder if women who drink 4+ cups of tea a day are doing other things like living with 40 cats and never exercising.

I live with ONE cat and work out 4-5 days a week, thank you very much! ;-)


ditto

maybe the 40 cats is a preventive measure? ever watch hoarders or something similar? I always wonder why those people aren't physically ill (mental yes; some health problems)but why aren't they ill with weird diseases!

incidentally I grew up in a house clean enough to do surgery in. My dad jokes that my mom used to thoroughly clean 20 times a day; now that the kids are gone shes cut back to 18 times a day.
 
2010-06-18 10:22:34 AM
rgriffithi: 1) A lot of people drink tea.
2) People who drink tea all die.
3) Drinking tea makes people die.

did I do this right?


Close. You forgot the part where they included people who drink coffee instead, and they apparently don't die. This study is more like:

1) Some people drink hemlock.
1a) Some people drink coffee
2) People who drink hemlock die frequently.
2a) People who drink coffee do not die frequently.
3) Drinking hemlock makes people die.
3a) Drinking coffee does not make people die.

That's how it works when you have a proper study with an alternate group. When there's correlation with one of the groups, and no correlation with the other (otherwise identical) group, then there is an implied causation. At a minimum, there's a reason to continue researching the idea that tea and rheumatism are linked.

/Just finished a nice cuppa tea.
//most of these studies are crap anyway
///correlation doesn't equal causation is nice, but sometimes there really is a link between a behavior and an outcome
 
2010-06-18 10:23:30 AM
Nothing good ever happens to me! I like my hot tea :(
 
2010-06-18 10:25:06 AM
I call shenanigans. Article & study is way too vague to have any sort of relevance. Doesn't even say what kind of tea.
/I'm drinking heroin tea right now & I feel just fine!
 
2010-06-18 10:25:34 AM
Meh, it's got an RR of 1.78 for high consumption and 1.4 for low consumption.

Normally in these studies you want to see an RR of 3 or higher before making such conclusions.

Relative Risk. Look it up.
 
2010-06-18 10:38:55 AM
Gridlock: And folks, what is the secret ingredient in tea that causes arthritis?

FLUORIDE


Thanks for being the first to pinpoint what TFA says causes RA. Not so clear on how the iodine plays in the tea drinking, but I get that it's important to ingest a healthy dose to avoid RA, osteoporosis, and other doomy goodness.

BrynnMacFlynn: ... Fark you, scientists.

/takes a biiiiig sip of her tea
//gave up soda, coffee, and white sugar. Fark you if you think you're going to take my liquid last pleasure in life.


Very much this.

/white tea mostly
//but Teavana makes a tasty (albeit overpriced) green/white blend
 
2010-06-18 10:40:17 AM
I just switched to one Peace Tea a day to get away from sodas, energy drinks and HFC :( Trying to do the right thing dammit, LEAVE ME ALOOOOOONNNNEEEE.

/runs into the woods
 
2010-06-18 10:56:03 AM
SignificantPie: I have about 20 cups of green/white tea a day. Am I going to f*cking die now?

What absolute twaddle! It's 11:00 AM, and I'm drinking my twelfth cup of the day right now. Drinking tea is invigorating, and makes one valiant and pure of spirit.

It's a lovely blend, called the Black Tea of -- ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!
 
2010-06-18 11:00:20 AM
BadAnalogyGuy: TRIGONALMAYHEM: CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.

You cannot have causation without strong correlation.


a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square

article is complete and utter BS.
 
2010-06-18 11:02:31 AM
The longer abstract posted a little while back suggests that most of this is probably spurious. e.g.
"Consuming any amount of tea carried a significant risk of developing RA (HR 1.40 (95%CI 1.01-1.93) p=0.04) and women who drank ≥4 cups of tea per day had an increased risk of developing RA compared to those who drank none (HR 1.78 (95%CI 0.83-3.82))"

So yeah, that p is just shy of being non-significant, and the thing with 7 cups a day isn't significant at all. Why that's in the press release I have no idea. I bet the "4 cups" was chosen since it was the only one that gave a p of less than 0.05.
 
2010-06-18 11:10:12 AM
Probably the most important lesson to be learned here is to not rely on any mainstream news source to get anything having to do with science right, as it seems that nine times out of ten they don't understand wtf anything really means.
 
2010-06-18 11:11:16 AM
i178.photobucket.com

Nectar of the gods. I drink 16 oz. iced every morning. Fark you dubious science. Fark you very much.
 
2010-06-18 11:18:01 AM
rgriffithi: 1) A lot of people drink tea.
2) People who drink tea all die.
3) Drinking tea makes people die.

did I do this right?


All I know is if I don't get my tea, people may very well die.
 
2010-06-18 11:24:53 AM
God Is My Co-Pirate: rgriffithi: 1) A lot of people drink tea.
2) People who drink tea all die.
3) Drinking tea makes people die.

did I do this right?

All I know is if I don't get my tea, people may very well die.


*raises cup* Amen.
 
2010-06-18 11:25:30 AM
cuzsis: Way to adjust for type of tea, quality of tea and method of preparation there.

Was just thinking that. Article seems to imply all leaves are equal.
 
2010-06-18 11:30:09 AM
TRIGONALMAYHEM: CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.

let me say that again for you:

CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.

For all we know people who are more prone to developing arthritis are also prone to liking tea (maybe for its anti-inflammatory properties?). I hate news stories that gloss over the fact that a statistical analysis does not say anything about why a relationship exists. They just start theorizing and immediately jump to a casual relationship.

BLEH!

/CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.




Dear heavens, THIS.

My very first thought was there was some sort of trait that made people prefer tea, and also caused the RA. Like, stress. In Western cultures, it seems to me that those who want to "calm themselves" drink tea more, and those who like to be revved up more drink coffee. So could it be how a person deals with stress or something like that???

Either the article needs to explain the study a hell of a lot better (or maybe even provide a link, heaven forbid) or the study is shiat.
 
2010-06-18 11:31:16 AM
jdog71: Nectar of the gods. I drink 16 oz. iced every morning. Fark you dubious science. Fark you very much.

That looks good. I will give it a try. I've switched from diet soda to tea. It was so hard to break the habit but I did it. They need to leave my tea alone.
 
2010-06-18 11:34:19 AM
Fark Me To Tears: TRIGONALMAYHEM: CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.

let me say that again for you:

CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.


Actually, it does imply causation. It just doesn't prove it.

From Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary:

Main Entry: imply
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form: implied ; implying
Etymology:Middle English emplien, from Anglo-French emplier to entangle - more at EMPLOY
Date:14th century

1 obsolete : ENFOLD, ENTWINE
2 : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement *rights imply obligations*
3 : to contain potentially
4 : to express indirectly *his silence implied consent*
synonyms see SUGGEST
usage see INFER


/BTW... It makes you look even more stupid when you repeat it like that.


You're right, he should have said CORRELATION SHOULD NOT IMPLY CAUSATION. It's not the idiots' faults that they don't know enough to not infer causation from correlation, including the author(s) of the article.
 
2010-06-18 11:41:50 AM
Teas are cures, in European cultures, for Rheumatoid arthritis. So people with a genetic propensity for it, are raised in households that drink it. So they will be raised drinking it, and the scientists will discover a connection, but these scientists obviously don't know how to research, or else they would have figured out the history of the food and cultures they are studying. I call this study, "bullshiat."
 
2010-06-18 11:41:57 AM
SomeOkieGirl: jdog71: Nectar of the gods. I drink 16 oz. iced every morning. Fark you dubious science. Fark you very much.

That looks good. I will give it a try. I've switched from diet soda to tea. It was so hard to break the habit but I did it. They need to leave my tea alone.


I highly recommend it. If you like a strong spearmint flavor, its very good. It tastes sweet without sugar.
 
2010-06-18 11:50:23 AM
[professor-farnsworth.jpg]
 
2010-06-18 11:58:36 AM
Bah! My joints will stay limber by kicking people in the balls that try to take my tea away from me.
 
2010-06-18 12:09:28 PM
Meh, coffee isn't exactly a tonic of health either. It's all about choosing your agent of pain and death. I'll take the one that goes better with scones.
 
2010-06-18 12:33:40 PM
I love tea.

Good thing I have a penis.

/isn't awfully nice to own one?
 
2010-06-18 12:38:56 PM
ISouldBeWorking: As someone who has arthritis since eleven and drinks tea, I'm getting a kick *Argh!* out of these replies.

Had Rheumatic fever as a teen, and was left with what the docs called "arthritic symptoms" that I would supposedly grow out of. But both RA and Osteo arthritis run on my Ma's side of the family, so I have had the "symptoms" since about 1987. I drinks the tea quite a bit,and it hasn't affected my joints any. Only stormy weather slows me down significantly.

/having the joints go snap crackle pop when you're still young disconcerts your classmates.
 
2010-06-18 12:52:37 PM
Has anyone pointed out that there is only one kind of "tea"? All tea comes from the Camellia sinensis. Anything other than this (Chamomile,mint,etc.) is technically an herbal infusion.
 
2010-06-18 12:56:12 PM
Great another correlation. No wonder people are in constant fear in this society, they take every correlation as causation. How many people drink tea on this planet? How many people have rheumatoid arthritis? This article is a joke. I want to see the actual biological process that causes tea to exacerbate the autoimmune response that rheumatoid arthritis is. Then I'll believe it.

I have met people with rheumatoid arthritis that drink neither coffee or tea. This is just more bunk science.
 
2010-06-18 01:03:23 PM
GuyMontag: meh.: Can I please get one motherfarking thing in this motherfarking world that doesn't motherfarking cause, cancer, heartdisease, arthritis, liver spots, erectile disfunction, warts, or blindness.

Just one.

how about FAP?


/works for me!
//don't mind the chafing...


Hmm... I've heard that one of the long-term effects of a vasectomy was an increased risk of testicular cancer. Something about the constant production of sperm with no place for it to go messing up the works. And FAP was supposed to reduce the risk of cancer, quite dramatically, iirc.

/Oh, wait, you said blindness. Never mind.
 
2010-06-18 02:26:25 PM
Krikkitbot: Has anyone pointed out that there is only one kind of "tea"? All tea comes from the Camellia sinensis. Anything other than this (Chamomile,mint,etc.) is technically an herbal infusion.

True (-ish. Rooibos, a tasty red tea, comes from the Aspalathus linearis in Africa).

It was mentioned earlier that the age of the leaf and method of preparation affects the chemical composition of the leaf, giving you different levels of fluoride that likely varies with the type of tea you drink. The consensus seems to be younger the leaf = less fluoride. Same plant, though.
 
2010-06-18 02:34:40 PM
MikeyistheDevil: I love tea.

Good thing I have a penis.

/isn't awfully nice to own one?


Pics or GTFO
 
2010-06-18 05:50:04 PM
is it the fluoride content?
 
2010-06-18 05:50:53 PM
Fark Me To Tears: TRIGONALMAYHEM: CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.

let me say that again for you:

CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.


Actually, it does imply causation. It just doesn't prove it.

From Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary:

Main Entry: imply
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form: implied ; implying
Etymology:Middle English emplien, from Anglo-French emplier to entangle - more at EMPLOY
Date:14th century

1 obsolete : ENFOLD, ENTWINE
2 : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement *rights imply obligations*
3 : to contain potentially
4 : to express indirectly *his silence implied consent*
synonyms see SUGGEST
usage see INFER


/BTW... It makes you look even more stupid when you repeat it like that.




The adage, "Correlation does not imply causation" is using only the strictly logical sense of implication. That is, material implication (new window), where "if p, then q."

In this sense, the phrase is true, because it is demonstrably true that there is at least one case where P is correlated with Q, but P does not cause Q.

/get your colloquialisms out of my logic
 
2010-06-18 05:51:42 PM
Gridlock: FLU

hooray. u must be a chemist or something, too. props, brah.
 
2010-06-18 07:00:17 PM
meh.: Can I please get one motherfarking thing in this motherfarking world that doesn't motherfarking cause, cancer, heartdisease, arthritis, liver spots, erectile disfunction, warts, or blindness.

Just one.


Death? Cures all of the above, way I hear it.
 
2010-06-18 11:01:54 PM
A US study on more than 76,000 women found consuming tea raised the risk, while drinking coffee had no impact.

You know, when you specifically identify your study group as 76,000+ women, you really do then have to tell us whether your findings are applicable only to women, or also to men.
 
2010-06-19 01:26:51 AM
Fark Me To Tears: TRIGONALMAYHEM: CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.

let me say that again for you:

CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.
CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION.


Actually, it does imply causation. It just doesn't prove it.

From Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary:

Main Entry: imply
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form: implied ; implying
Etymology:Middle English emplien, from Anglo-French emplier to entangle - more at EMPLOY
Date:14th century

1 obsolete : ENFOLD, ENTWINE
2 : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement *rights imply obligations*
3 : to contain potentially
4 : to express indirectly *his silence implied consent*
synonyms see SUGGEST
usage see INFER


/BTW... It makes you look even more stupid when you repeat it like that.


it makes you look even stupider when you use a dictionary definition to contradict scientific terminology that is used in very precise ways.
 
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