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(Jerusalem Post)   Jerusalem police bar Temple Mount Faithful ceremony. War, Famine, Pestilince, Death resume poker game.   (jpost.com) divider line 23
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1407 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Oct 2001 at 11:46 AM (13 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



23 Comments   (+0 »)
   

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2001-10-04 11:55:38 AM  
Woah horsies...
 
2001-10-04 12:03:52 PM  
Must have been a little too provocative, even for Israel.
 
2001-10-04 12:10:50 PM  
Actually, they have barred this ceremony every single year since this group of fanatic idiots started their rebuilding plan. And it's not a Freedom of Speech issue. It's an act that can provoke war, so it has to be barred.
 
2001-10-04 12:12:22 PM  
Well, the folks who are behind this are a bizarre coalition of far-right-wing, ultra-orthodox Jews and fundamentalist millenialist Christians. The FRWUOJ group wants to rebuild the temple as a symbol of nationalist pride, and to incite unrest and violence which they hope will allow them to grab more government power.

The FMC group wants the temple rebuild so that they can go to heaven in the Rapture.
 
2001-10-04 12:28:59 PM  
Heh. Heh. They said "Dung Gate".
 
2001-10-04 12:46:40 PM  
Yup... no big surprise here. Like Jax said... They've barred the ceremony every year so far. In fact, I just heard that the Mount Faithful attempt their stone-laying stunt on or around every major Jewish holiday.
 
2001-10-04 01:01:37 PM  
Quirk: Yeah - they have some convoluted idea that since the rebuilding signifies one of the pre-Rapture events, that they can physically initiate the Apocolypse by rebuilding. Even though their metaphysical views are kooky, the violence they provoke could easily become a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
2001-10-04 01:17:04 PM  
Diogenes:

The rapture is a christian belief not a jewish one.
 
2001-10-04 01:26:19 PM  
Ajlull: I know that. I was referring to the Millenial Christian Fundies Quirk highlighted that are also behind the rebuilding movement.
 
2001-10-04 01:26:24 PM  
Ajlull: true, but the Temple Mount Faithful group gets funding from some scary Christian fundies. There was an article in The Door Magazine following some of the money spent by Pat Robertson and various Rapture cults (must find issue index for reference...).
 
2001-10-04 01:27:30 PM  
Although I must say some of the material recovered from the Dead Sea Scrolls have strong parallels to the Christian idea of the end times.

I'm not an idiot, thank you.
 
2001-10-04 01:32:16 PM  
Found a different reference for it: The New Republic, 06/14/1999
 
2001-10-04 02:16:32 PM  
Diogenes: I didn't think you were an idiot.

Quirk: Thanks for the ref. I really don't know much about this movement but I do find it interesting.
 
2001-10-04 02:29:23 PM  
Quirk:

The "rapture" is not a cultist belief, it is a standard basic concept in Protestant and Catholic Christian theology. Stop being so closeminded.

What makes them cultists, if they are, has nothing to do with their belief in a rapture.
 
2001-10-04 03:55:31 PM  
Veracity: Cultist is your word, not mine. Even so, the Christian fundamentalist interpretation of "The Rapture" is hardly a part of standard theology. It has its roots in late 19th century Scotland. I don't have all of my reference texts here at work, but the usual excuse for it is based on a rather bizarre reading of Revelation 14:1-5.

(For those of you don't keep a bible near your computer, that's the part of Revelation where the 144,000 singing male virgins suddenly appear with the Father's name written on their foreheads.)

There's no indication that these folks were called up bodily from their everyday tasks around the globe. That was a very recent invention.

I keep my mind open, but I don't let my brain fall out.
 
2001-10-04 04:03:52 PM  
Whoops! I guess my brain did fall out a bit...

Let me clarify something. In the (10-04-01 01:26:24 PM) post I'm not calling _Chrstianity_ a cult belief. I'm referring to specific Christian Rapture Cults.

They're out there, and they're freaky.
 
2001-10-04 04:32:02 PM  
Like I said, you are connecting the concept of the belief of a rapture with being a cultist.

I think you are also confusing pre-tribulationalism (which came late in the 19th century) with rapture. The term "Rapture" itself is a modern convention however.

Although some interpret some versions in Rev as being a rapture, it's actual context is in Thessalonians.
(1 Thessalonians 4:17) Not in Rev.

It's been several years since I've studied any of this, and it's pretty off topic (I guess) so I'll stop there. But my past "Church going" experience with my parents clearly indicates the belief in a "rapture" is a mainstream concept.

That being said, I still agree that people trying to bring about "end-times" through violence and circling dates on their calenders are fruit-cakes.

If I remember correctly, most concepts of "end times" envolves nasty crap like world-wide plagues and the massive deaths. Anyone getting a hard-on for that needs to do some serious re-evaluating of what it means to "Love".
 
2001-10-04 04:51:25 PM  
Woo hoo! A well reasoned theology debate! (but yah, it's getting off topic so I'll quit after this too)

My biggest problem with the whole premillenial dispensationalism and tribulationalism (apart from the fact that if you try to say it out loud you tie your mouth in a knot) is the historical context of Paul's letters. Doing a quick 'grep' search on my html copy of the King James bible (Who you callin' geek?), there are only 5 places in the New Testament where the term "last days" shows up (Acts 2:17, 2 Tim. 3:1, Hebrews 1:2, James 5:3, 2 Peter 3:3).

By reading the context of those five places, we should be able to get a good understanding of what the writers of the New Testament meant by "last days." Hebrews 1:1,2 gives us a clear understanding of what "last days" refers to: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these LAST DAYS spoken unto us by his Son..."

From this, and other references (for example Matt 23:33,38 which brings us back to the destruction of the Temple) all of the "last days" references point toward the end of the Biblical Israel at the hands of the Romans.

Reading the Bible without understanding the history of it has resulted in it being misenterpreted by scary fruitcakes trying to bring about armageddon.

So... Uh... We agree, kinda.

What were we arguing about again?
 
2001-10-04 04:55:17 PM  
Funny little thing about revelations. Many biblical scholars believe that it was written as an allegory for a needed uprising of the christians against the Roman Empire. The most telling fact of this is the whole number of the beast arguement. The original text can be translated one of two ways... either the number or the name of the beast. Most chose the number of the beast because it identifies the name/number to be VIVIVI. Which is the Roman numeral for 666 but is also a roman symbol for Ceasar.

Hence why I giggle at people who reference current times events to events "predicted" in revelations.
 
2001-10-04 05:13:19 PM  
Quirk:

I love debates! =) Wanna try one? ; )

Arguing biblical theology is hairy though, either you give people the wrong impression and/or "offend" them or you find yourself asking questions like "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin." ; )

But I'm willing to take a whack at the tribulational one in this thread (since it's not that active anyway). I kinda like the "pre-wrath" (kinda mid-trib) theory myself, at least when I was into "that thing". I think I can still dust off my notes if you have an opinion on the matter.

I'd steer away from using the King James to use word-based theories though. As I understand it, those groups building denomations (sp?) hinging on the interpretation of one word is retarded since the "original text" is in hebrew, greek and arameic (sp?).

Unless you are a scholar in those languages (I'm obviously not) you are just another tard in the internet debate race. ; )



Code_Archeologist:

Well, I think people throughout history have thought they knew "who was 666", and many of them were fruit-cakes too (Reagan the anti-christ? He can't even act!)

So you'll forgive me about being skeptical that Ceasar was the intended subject of that number. ; )

The "meaning" of Revelations depends on who you ask, and if they believe the bible was human or divinely inspired. Everyone has their own opinon, and I haven't seen anything convincing.
 
2001-10-04 08:49:21 PM  
This years article is a repeat of last year's article which was a repeat, et ceterra ad infinitum ad nauseam. That group is a very small group in Israel. They are never going to get anywhere. They are about as serious as the Shriners.
 
K
2001-10-04 08:53:44 PM  
 
2001-10-05 07:56:26 AM  
Utna: Yeah, but do they have little cars?
 
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