FARK.com: (5360899) No, we aren't racist, we just don't accept applications from white people

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		No, we aren't racist, we just don't accept applications from white people (dailymail.co.uk)		477
		More: Asinine, ethnic minority, remedies

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el wharrrgarblo		2010-06-02 11:02:08 AM

FarkinNortherner: el wharrrgarblo: Children could tell you why this is a bad idea.

This is what you get for taking advice from children.

Adults could tell you that qualified non-white people are discriminated against in the job selection process based on their names and neighbourhoods before their application gets any further than the first cut.

And in private business there is nothing wrong with that. It should be their choice. If they don't want to hire a yellow guy, but are forced to, it's going to create an uncomfortable working environment for everyone, and affect production. Like I said, people like you need to learn you don't have the right to not have your feelings hurt.

Also, citation please. And a citation to back up that one.

keypusher		2010-06-02 11:03:19 AM

I'm so tired of white people biatching about the Globetrotters...

/DRTFA.

DROxINxTHExWIND		2010-06-02 11:03:59 AM

Thunderpipes:

Good to see Mister Bigot himself is alive and well. How is life in Bigotville, Droxywind? Have you played your Jesse Jackson Race Card today?

Bigotville? Is that what we're calling Fark now? Things are good. Just cashed my welfare check and I'm fittin' to burn my lip on a crack pipe after I rape your virtuous white wife. So, you're going to have to give her some vinegar and a about a week for that thing to snap back to a point where you can use it again. Burn any internet crosses lately?

/Oh, the president is Black so you all can stop acting like Jesse Jackson is our leader now.

el wharrrgarblo		2010-06-02 11:04:20 AM

TwistedFark: I'm the first person to agree that all forms of affirmative action are inherently racist.

The issue however, once you get beyond that - how do you quickly redress this type of racial inequality by other means?

The council here has a legitimate problem. They represent a citizenship that is 12% ethnic minorities, yet their incorporated body only makes up a 6% representation. The hiring quota (which btw, is legal under these circumstances in this country) is an attempt at a quick fix.

Personally, I find it more than a little disturbing that in this day and age we have people who get very indignant about these kinds of issues, yet conspicuously fall very silent on offering alternatives that may achieve the same end results by more egalitarian means. In other news: It's an imperfect solution for an imperfect world. Harden up princess.

How about life isn't fair and deal with it. I don't want underqualified people in positions because of the color of their skin.

Besides, this isn't the 1950's, and there are more than plenty of people that have no qualms with hiring a black person.

So how about you harden up, cowboy.

LouDobbsAwaaaay		2010-06-02 11:06:11 AM

relcec: A white person or asian person with those exact same qualities however is just as likely to find themselves busting ass as a barista at some community college for 2 years then on to some half assed state school getting a lib arts degree, then some middling career as a drone pushing paper if they are lucky for 45k for the next 47 years hopefully.

This is the part that seems the most arbitrary. Asians are a minority in this country, and asians have certainly been discriminated against. Yet they aren't treated the same way as blacks.

One question though: why is it the fault of the system that the white/asian guy in your hypothetical situation gets a liberal arts degree?

jst3p		2010-06-02 11:07:36 AM

relcec: my father nor my grandfather sinned against the fathers and grandfathers of those now receiving preferential treatment that they don't deserve. you have no idea what my family and others have gone through. don't pretend you do.

Way to take a figure of speech and try to address it literally, that shows intelligence.

And you think we have it easier than the the rest? how so? if you aren't born with money and connections? a black person of fair intelligence and a decent work ethic can right there own check. they can almost literally do anything they want int the U.S.

So can a white person, and to pretend that subtle, unintentional or blatant racism won't help him in small ways most of the journey is to be wilfully ignorant. Again, I am not saying affirmative action is a good thing, but there is a problem still.

With hard I'd estimate they could get into a top 50 school, full ride, and go on to a prestigious career in about any profession they wanted because they are so in demand and because of all the race based AA crowding out all the competition for them.

So?

A white person or asian person with those exact same qualities however is just as likely to find themselves busting ass as a barista at some community college for 2 years then on to some half assed state school getting a lib arts degree, then some middling career as a drone pushing paper if they are lucky for 45k for the next 47 years hopefully.

Citation needed. Maybe I am tainted by my own personal experiences but I have done far more with less, and I am nothing special.

el wharrrgarblo		2010-06-02 11:07:42 AM

American Decency Association: no. sometimesel wharrrgarblo: American Decency Association: this old chestnut? sometimes government HAS to shift the goal posts in order to BALANCE the inequity afflicting minorities (that's what government does!) ... this sort of issue really helps identify the scumbag right

Um, no. How about having the best person for the job? Not you get the job because you are white, or black, or red, or yellow.

Children could tell you why this is a bad idea.

I hope your house is on fire one day, and firefighter that comes to save your family is a quota. I hope they perform like that too.

See why giving jobs to people who aren't qualified isn't a good idea?

When are you libs going to learn that getting your feelings hurt is a part of life and trying to make everything better with assinine programs only weakens society and breeds resentment.

the resentment only exists with people like you

these folk will overcome any initial difficulties and in so doing will gain essential self confidence to step up a level or two for next time

god i would love to see you re-born into a minority

It's funny how you think it's resentment. Shows how dumb you really are.

It's called common sense. Giving a job to a person who's only qualification is the color of their skin weakens whatever company this practice is going on in.

People like you would rather see a country fall rather than have someones feelings hurt.

People like you are part of the problem. People like me recognize this to be a problem and for how absurd the idea actually is.

Your Favorite Token Black Chick		2010-06-02 11:07:42 AM

I don't like AA as much as the next white guy because I don't like a shadow of deservability cast over me because I'm black. I'm smart and talented and I have just as much right to a job as anybody else. Don't treat me any different than anybody else please. I don't need that kind of 'sympathy' or 'help' as I've been doing quite fine on my own without it.

That said, the reverse is true in a lot of private companies (at least in America). They really really REALLY don't like darkies in upper management (as far as big pharma goes). Its really depressing and disgusting too.

Ponzholio		2010-06-02 11:08:28 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: DROxINxTHExWIND: I agree with the second bigot.

You forgot to tap your card that turn

Don't forget this one-

i635.photobucket.com

Khaal		2010-06-02 11:08:34 AM

C'mon, what white guy could pull this off?

Link (new window)

You need to have standards in place to ensure effective advertisement.

el wharrrgarblo		2010-06-02 11:09:37 AM

ajgeek: TwistedFark: Personally, I find it more than a little disturbing that in this day and age we have people who get very indignant about these kinds of issues, yet conspicuously fall very silent on offering alternatives that may achieve the same end results by more egalitarian means.

One possible way is to eliminate names/addresses on the resume and, instead, assign "applicant numbers". If the applicant number meets the criteria for an interview, put them in one of those double blind rooms with the voice changer so both the interviewer and interviewee sound like James Earl Jones.

This will significantly reduce any inherent racism/sexism from the equation, but that means Human Resources will actually have a job to do, so this will never fly.

/HR is the most bureaucratic waste of money in any corporation

This is a good idea.

Coconice		2010-06-02 11:10:03 AM

Thunderpipes: beoswulf:

Affirmative action is needed to compensate for gaps in average intelligence between ethnic groups as well as cultural stigmas against education in the black and hispanic community.

Now that there be some good old fashioned racism/prejudice. The cultural stigmas are true, but intelligence? Are you really saying your ethnic group determines intelligence? Uh oh.

Ya know, I don't see the "uh oh."

Different races of people are just like different breeds of dogs.

Few question that some breeds of dogs are, on average, smarter than others. Or faster. Or taller. Or have a better sense of smell.

It is insane not to accept and expect this in people.

Every person is not of equal ability, and I surely doubt every race is.

Some races should naturally excell over other at different challenges.

I don't think any race is "better" than any other. But I certainly don't expect all races to be, on average, of equal ability at every task.

jst3p		2010-06-02 11:11:02 AM

Biv: jst3p: Biv: jst3p:

And it is easy to refuse to pay for the sins of our fathers when we are still benefiting from them, but I don't think that is the right way to look at it. We need to look at today. And today there is a clear imbalance. Even with the systematic deck stacked against us, we still have it easier than the rest.

That's the problem, you are buying into the guilt laden lie. There is not an imbalance. The lack comes from within the cultures that are underachieving, not from pressure from above.

If there is no imbalance what is this "lack" you speak of? And if there is a difference in achievement but no imbalance in society are you implying that some races are superior? So underachieving is somehow genetically part of some races "culture"?

Socially, not racially. Grow up with a criminal/ghetto/welfare mentality and you will not be prepared to compete with those who are willing to work hard for a living.

Ask Asians (for the most part) in this country. They ask for and demand nothing extra from this country, get nothing extra in return and there is no real difference in hiring and pay rates between whites and Asians in the U.S.

Flip to the black community, subject to AA, preferencial treatment and welfare mentality and all they have done is managed to keep themselves in chains of their own making.

Take a black man, equal to a white man in every way, and separate him from the social group of the oppressed. They achieve titles such as Mr. President.

It's not whitey's fault that 50% of your culture have criminal records before they apply for the job or that you decided to not give a shiate about school.

I fight with poverty. Not hard poverty, but things have not turned out how I have planned. But, in the end, I have no one to blame but myself and no one of any race in this country can say any different.

You make many valid points in this post that I agree with, the comparison to the Asian communities is a great one. I can still see blaming some of the issues the black community faces on hundreds of years of oppression, but I agree that it seems with each generation that rationale loses validity. At some point the culture as a whole needs to take better advantage of what opportunities they have.

el wharrrgarblo		2010-06-02 11:11:32 AM

Bit'O'Gristle: I once tried to get a lazy black woman fired for sleeping on the job when i had to do the work. The boss laughed in my face, and said he wouldn't even touch it. She would even bring a blanket and radio to go to sleep to.

I called a police department to ask about employment, and they asked me if i was a minority. I said "is being white a minority?" They said don't bother applying, we aren't hiring white people.

I knew a policeman who would train the new guys on the street. He said he had a new policeman who was black that he was training. He told me the guy kept going to sleep as he was trying to instruct him, and when he would wake up, he had no idea where the two of them were. Bad idea for a cop. He turned the guy in for sleeping about 20 times, but they would do nothing about it. (no proof). He finally pulled the squad car over one night, and took multiple pictures of the guy catching zz's. He turned those in, and the command people "lost" them. Nothing ever happened to the guy. In the same training time, a white recruit fell asleep once, and was fired.

I applied at a local cannery, and the HR guy told me that they are only hiring mexicans. (he was mexican). White owned company, not one white guy working there except the maintenance guys.

Liberals would say this is all good. Job well done, and pat themselves on the back.

I truly hope these morons get what they deserve one day.

LouDobbsAwaaaay		2010-06-02 11:13:28 AM

jst3p: and to pretend that subtle, unintentional or blatant racism won't help him in small ways most of the journey is to be wilfully ignorant. Again, I am not saying affirmative action is a good thing, but there is a problem still.

I work in science and academia, which is dominated by white males. The mantra in the hiring process at my university is to go out of your way to NOT hire any more white males; it doesn't really matter if they are the best fit for the job, you need to get more minorities and women into faculty positions. There is even money set aside in the graduate school budget specifically for non-white-male hires. A friend of mine recently got a job in NY only after the entire department's faculty went to war with management to hire him (a white male) when management demanded they go with their second choice because she was female.

Is this unintentional or blatant pro-white-male racism, and is it helping me (a white male) in small ways most of my journey to finding a job?

DROxINxTHExWIND		2010-06-02 11:14:02 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay:

This is the part that seems the most arbitrary. Asians are a minority in this country, and asians have certainly been discriminated against. Yet they aren't treated the same way as blacks.

One question though: why is it the fault of the system that the white/asian guy in your hypothetical situation gets a liberal arts degree?

Asians were not subjected to 400+ years of systematic discrimination at the hands of white Americans either. Hell, its acceptable for you to bring an Asian home.

Mr. McPeanut		2010-06-02 11:14:40 AM

RockofAges: Mr. McPeanut:

You're so full of shiat I can smell it from across the border. Have you actually ever had a friend or family member work in HR? Have you worked in HR yourself? Have you failed to do any research on the actual practice?

When the public sector hands you an employment form, do you not notice the racial checkbox? Do you not understand that quota-based hiring (ie. hiring a certain number of each ethnic minority based on their skin colour, when it boils down to it) is de rigeur?

Trying to spout some soft-sociology inversion of the truth doesn't make it so, sir. Affirmative action is racism in action. If systemic racism against blacks or first-nations individuals was being advocated, I am quite sure you would be the first to start talking about Jim Crow laws - but yet, because it is taking place against the "privileged" class, you invert your beliefs and take the stand.

All racial profiling in educational matters, job securities, and hiring practices is wrong. Period. May the best person win.

That definition is more or less out of an HR textbook.

My point isn't that HR departments don't act on racial quotas. My point is that when they do it's illegal. I'll say it again, since you're so sure I'm full of shiat: quotas are illegal. In a legal context, affirmative action is attracting a more diverse applicant pool which will reflect in the new hires. If a company or state includes quotas as part of their affirmative action plan, that's illegal and they deserve to be sued.

People with different backgrounds and different experiences tend to offer different viewpoints: that's the supposed benefit of enacting an AA program. Yes, there is a strong undercurrent of "undoing" past social injustice. If I remember right it was enacted in the 60s when the CRA had just been passed, so yeah, there was some concern about that. But even so, the idea is still to hire the best applicant. I'll say that again, too: the best applicant wins. The hope is that having more applicants from other races will improve the odds that one or more of the best applicant(s) are of a minority group.

Joe Blowme: Mr. McPeanut:
And how do they do this? What is this mysterious ENCOURAGEMENT you speak of?

It can be as simple as making some new recruitment posters and materials that feature a more "diverse" cast. If you know to look for it it's actually kind of funny how corny it is, because you can look at it and go "okay, there's the black guy, and the Hispanic woman, and there's a Korean woman..." But to someone just looking for a job that might be enough to make them consider it.

A company may change it's vacation or overtime practices to encourage more female applicants who plan on having or just think they might want to have a child at some point in the future.

That said, companies can (and do) take encouragement too far. Hell, the quota bullshiat is a clear example of that. But again, the point I'm trying to make here is that the quotas everyone assumes are part of AA are NOT legally part of AA. They are a bastardization of the ideas behind AA and they are blatantly illegal.

Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox		2010-06-02 11:15:07 AM

Biv: The president is black. Americans, at least, need to stop buying into the white liberal guilt.

Not just the President. The Attorney General and Surgeon General are black (they just happened to be the best people for the jobs). A Supreme Court justice is black (proportional with the US population). 41 Representatives are black (proportional with the US population). Two governors are black (including mine). A number of other high-level appointments are/were black.

I wonder how all the black politicians keep getting elected since we are constantly told how racist America is. There must be a Klan meeting every election that keeps all the racists away.

Arwydd		2010-06-02 11:17:10 AM

nostratic: Bgdojo: HandsUp: There is nothing wrong with an individual discriminating... If a company wants to only hiring Asians to write code.. that should be their Right. If a bar wants to allow or disallow smoking that is their Right! If a County Fire Dept requires men to carry 100lbs down a ladder while women carry 50lb to be a firefighter, that is illegal!

Government agency can not discriminate, private citizens can!
SIMPLE

Why?

The U.S. Constitution is why.

The first amendment, for example, sez that Congress (and, by extension, any government entity) can't limit an individual's right to free speech.

At the same time, the first amendment does not say a word about prohibitions of speech by non-government entities or prohibitions by non-government entities on private property. R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992) found, for example, that it was unconstitutional to prohibit display of controversial or inciteful displays (e.g., Nazi Swastikas) on private property.

I'm quite certain that hiring is not an act of speech and isn't covered under the first amendment.

lukelightning		2010-06-02 11:17:38 AM

jst3p		2010-06-02 11:18:05 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: jst3p: and to pretend that subtle, unintentional or blatant racism won't help him in small ways most of the journey is to be wilfully ignorant. Again, I am not saying affirmative action is a good thing, but there is a problem still.

I work in science and academia, which is dominated by white males. The mantra in the hiring process at my university is to go out of your way to NOT hire any more white males; it doesn't really matter if they are the best fit for the job, you need to get more minorities and women into faculty positions. There is even money set aside in the graduate school budget specifically for non-white-male hires. A friend of mine recently got a job in NY only after the entire department's faculty went to war with management to hire him (a white male) when management demanded they go with their second choice because she was female.

Is this unintentional or blatant pro-white-male racism, and is it helping me (a white male) in small ways most of my journey to finding a job?

No, your specific case is outside the generalization I was making.

Hermione_Granger		2010-06-02 11:21:23 AM

This is the biggest bunch of bullshiat. If they're trying to recruit minorities for TWO effing positions and they're only holding those two open, the damn near everyone else working there is ALREADY white. Why make a big fuss about two jobs?

Why is default affirmative action for white people not considered racist but holding open two lousy jobs for minorities a problem?

el wharrrgarblo		2010-06-02 11:21:55 AM

digitalrain: RockofAges: Huggermugger: RockofAges: I believe that non-white individuals are my equal in every conceivable way, and would prefer to see them treated as such - not as state-sponsored wards or photogenic tokens.

THANK YOU! I get so sick and tired of the sense of entitlement
some minorities have (not just racial minorities - I've seen
plenty of women who have the same sense of entitlement just 'cuz
two boobs and can't pee standing up).

"WAAAAAAAAH Your ancestors brought my ancestors over on slave ships and ripped us away from our motherland so gimme gimme"

Uh...NO. Your ancestors and mine have been dust for centuries. Wipe your tears of effrontery and GET OVER IT. And if you're so torn up over being ripped from the bosom of your motherland, GO THE FARK BACK!

This. Go back if it's so bad here and whitey has his boot on your neck.

Blacks are the equivilent of teenagers. They act just like them. If they don't get what they want they riot, loot, and kill. They bring up things that none of them ever went through. And they are the only race that does it. Every race has had tons of bad things happen to them. Do the rest of us bring it up on a continual basis.

*I'm truely sorry if I offend any black people that work hard for what they have, and you do deserve it.

*I also realize that there are scummy whites out there too, and I'm all for them getting told what worthless scumbags they are.

I think they everyone should get a fair shot. What I don't think is fair, is the governmnet telling companies who they can and can't hire because of skin color.

I can't believe how some people don't see how this weakens the company, and breeds resentment. No good comes out of it.

RockofAges		2010-06-02 11:22:00 AM

Mr. McPeanut: RockofAges: Mr. McPeanut:

You're so full of shiat I can smell it from across the border. Have you actually ever had a friend or family member work in HR? Have you worked in HR yourself? Have you failed to do any research on the actual practice?

When the public sector hands you an employment form, do you not notice the racial checkbox? Do you not understand that quota-based hiring (ie. hiring a certain number of each ethnic minority based on their skin colour, when it boils down to it) is de rigeur?

Trying to spout some soft-sociology inversion of the truth doesn't make it so, sir. Affirmative action is racism in action. If systemic racism against blacks or first-nations individuals was being advocated, I am quite sure you would be the first to start talking about Jim Crow laws - but yet, because it is taking place against the "privileged" class, you invert your beliefs and take the stand.

All racial profiling in educational matters, job securities, and hiring practices is wrong. Period. May the best person win.

That definition is more or less out of an HR textbook.

My point isn't that HR departments don't act on racial quotas. My point is that when they do it's illegal. I'll say it again, since you're so sure I'm full of shiat: quotas are illegal. In a legal context, affirmative action is attracting a more diverse applicant pool which will reflect in the new hires. If a company or state includes quotas as part of their affirmative action plan, that's illegal and they deserve to be sued.

People with different backgrounds and different experiences tend to offer different viewpoints: that's the supposed benefit of enacting an AA program. Yes, there is a strong undercurrent of "undoing" past social injustice. If I remember right it was enacted in the 60s when the CRA had just been passed, so yeah, there was some concern about that. But even so, the idea is still to hire the best applicant. I'll say that again, too: the best applicant wins. The hope is that having more applicants from other races will improve the odds that one or more of the best applicant(s) are of a minority group.

Joe Blowme: Mr. McPeanut:
And how do they do this? What is this mysterious ENCOURAGEMENT you speak of?

It can be as simple as making some new recruitment posters and materials that feature a more "diverse" cast. If you know to look for it it's actually kind of funny how corny it is, because you can look at it and go "okay, there's the black guy, and the Hispanic woman, and there's a Korean woman..." But to someone just looking for a job that might be enough to make them consider it.

A company may change it's vacation or overtime practices to encourage more female applicants who plan on having or just think they might want to have a child at some point in the future.

That said, companies can (and do) take encouragement too far. Hell, the quota bullshiat is a clear example of that. But again, the point I'm trying to make here is that the quotas everyone assumes are part of AA are NOT legally part of AA. They are a bastardization of the ideas behind AA and they are blatantly illegal.

Which is why HR insists on quota hiring, both in the private and public sectors, right? If it's so egregiously illegal, why does the state engage quota-based hiring on an institutional level?

Simple, one paragraph answer please, with direct citations.

sinn0cent		2010-06-02 11:23:01 AM

Molavian

I wouldn't trust a white person as far as I could throw them, which isn't very far. Mostly because they're fat.

Thats right! So shop for your sharp knees fems outside the U.S.A from now on!

/fatty
//bleach white but Native American
///never understand why men want to curl up with a woman that feels like a 10 year old boy!

el wharrrgarblo		2010-06-02 11:24:16 AM

digitalrain: beoswulf: RockofAges: I'm a social democrat (in the USA, a filthy pinko commie-nest I suppose) and this is wrong. You don't fight past racial grievances with more racial divides.

I am a pariah in academia for always supporting my simplest belief: Discrimination based solely on race, on an arbitrary shade of skin colour that one has no control over and does not impact ones mental or physical abilities, is innately unethical. Particularly in a system that purports itself to be a meritocracy.

I come from a working class background and I can tell you, affirmative action doesn't put an end to racism - it only further culminates it. Not only do you engender a system of entitlement for visible minorities who expect "their due" from "big evil whitey / maley / other historical bogeyman", but you also create a great deal of emnity amongst poor, blue collar whites who have been barred from tax exempt status / free education for their children / promotional opportunities in the public and private sector due to racial requirements.

It's a farking stupid "solution" for past grievances and needs to end immediately. If you want to end racism, you'd better start with the systemic racism first. "Positive Discrimination" is an oxymoron, and people who use that term should DIAF.

Affirmative action is needed to compensate for gaps in average intelligence between ethnic groups as well as cultural stigmas against education in the black and hispanic community.

[cue 'not sure if serious' pic]

Assuming you're serious, then you're advocating putting a person of less intelligence and less education into a position simply because of the color of their skin.

That's not just ludicrous, it's also dangerous.

You have to remember, liberals care about feelings, and what they percieve to be fairness.

Like I said, they'd rather see a country crumble before a minority group got it's feelings hurt.

It's not even like I'm embelishing! There is no other way to explain affirmative action, and their support of it.

RockofAges		2010-06-02 11:24:28 AM

Hermione_Granger: This is the biggest bunch of bullshiat. If they're trying to recruit minorities for TWO effing positions and they're only holding those two open, the damn near everyone else working there is ALREADY white. Why make a big fuss about two jobs?

Why is default affirmative action for white people not considered racist but holding open two lousy jobs for minorities a problem?

You're right. Small potatoes. Who cares about the particulars? I mean, racial discrimination is just fine when it's only TWO people, right? When it's systemic (ie. affirmative action laws AGAINST white people, not "for" them, which is a nonexistent scenario) then it's a problem... or... no?

I'm having a hard time parsing even a basic argument out of your post.

Benevolent Misanthrope		2010-06-02 11:25:24 AM

Mr. McPeanut: I'll say that again, too: the best applicant wins.

Ummmm... no. EEO demands that if a minority meets the minimum advertised qualifications, they must be hired over another applicant with more experience, all else being equal. The best applicant does not win. The minority applicant wins.

Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox		2010-06-02 11:25:34 AM

Mr. McPeanut: My point isn't that HR departments don't act on racial quotas. My point is that when they do it's illegal. I'll say it again, since you're so sure I'm full of shiat: quotas are illegal. In a legal context, affirmative action is attracting a more diverse applicant pool which will reflect in the new hires. If a company or state includes quotas as part of their affirmative action plan, that's illegal and they deserve to be sued.

People with different backgrounds and different experiences tend to offer different viewpoints: that's the supposed benefit of enacting an AA program. Yes, there is a strong undercurrent of "undoing" past social injustice. If I remember right it was enacted in the 60s when the CRA had just been passed, so yeah, there was some concern about that. But even so, the idea is still to hire the best applicant. I'll say that again, too: the best applicant wins. The hope is that having more applicants from other races will improve the odds that one or more of the best applicant(s) are of a minority group.

This is nonsense progressive-speak. There is no practical difference between setting a goal of 8-12% minority hires and having a quota of 10% (see Grutter v. Bollinger oral argument in my previous comment above). No difference whatsoever, they are essentially equivalent in procedure, and identical in outcome. The standard to which you desperately cling is a widely acknowledged legal fiction created by the Court of 2003 which allows veiled quotas for a limited period of time out of empathy or some such thing, despite the clear Constitutional mandate of strict scrutiny analysis, which the Court inexplicably refused to apply in the case. The decision makes no sense at all and it is an embarrassment in Constitutional law. It has done tremendous damage to race relations in this country and the Court's own political capital.

Thunderpipes		2010-06-02 11:25:44 AM

Drox,

forgot to ask. Obviously you have suffered because of slavery. When were you emancipated? How was it legal you were a slave in this country? I am very curious.

I am mostly Norwegian. Hitler didn't like Norwegians. Somehow I don't feel oppressed. Weird.

RockofAges		2010-06-02 11:26:04 AM

Your Favorite Token Black Chick: I don't like AA as much as the next white guy because I don't like a shadow of deservability cast over me because I'm black. I'm smart and talented and I have just as much right to a job as anybody else. Don't treat me any different than anybody else please. I don't need that kind of 'sympathy' or 'help' as I've been doing quite fine on my own without it.

That said, the reverse is true in a lot of private companies (at least in America). They really really REALLY don't like darkies in upper management (as far as big pharma goes). Its really depressing and disgusting too.

Bang on. Couldn't have said it better myself.

el wharrrgarblo		2010-06-02 11:29:23 AM

Coconice: Thunderpipes: beoswulf:

Affirmative action is needed to compensate for gaps in average intelligence between ethnic groups as well as cultural stigmas against education in the black and hispanic community.

Now that there be some good old fashioned racism/prejudice. The cultural stigmas are true, but intelligence? Are you really saying your ethnic group determines intelligence? Uh oh.

Ya know, I don't see the "uh oh."

Different races of people are just like different breeds of dogs.

Few question that some breeds of dogs are, on average, smarter than others. Or faster. Or taller. Or have a better sense of smell.

It is insane not to accept and expect this in people.

Every person is not of equal ability, and I surely doubt every race is.

Some races should naturally excell over other at different challenges.

I don't think any race is "better" than any other. But I certainly don't expect all races to be, on average, of equal ability at every task.

While this is the truth, and testing shows it, you are going to get lmmbasted by liberals, and possibly banned just because.

Joe Blowme		2010-06-02 11:29:44 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: LouDobbsAwaaaay:

This is the part that seems the most arbitrary. Asians are a minority in this country, and asians have certainly been discriminated against. Yet they aren't treated the same way as blacks.

One question though: why is it the fault of the system that the white/asian guy in your hypothetical situation gets a liberal arts degree?

Asians were not subjected to 400+ years of systematic discrimination at the hands of white Americans either. Hell, its acceptable for you to bring an Asian home.

What year do you think this is? YOu are the biggest racist on fark. Many races have been oppressed, not just blacks so get over yourself. I personally have not oppressed or enslaved anyone so i am not at fault, you on the other hand seem to be trying to perpetuate the race victim card which is just pathetic.

Arwydd		2010-06-02 11:29:46 AM

el wharrrgarblo: You have to remember, liberals care about feelings, and what they percieve to be fairness.

Like I said, they'd rather see a country crumble before a minority group got it's feelings hurt.

It's not even like I'm embelishing! There is no other way to explain affirmative action, and their support of it.

Your generalizations are highly entertaining.

Mr. McPeanut		2010-06-02 11:29:56 AM

RockofAges: Mr. McPeanut: RockofAges: Mr. McPeanut:

Which is why HR insists on quota hiring, both in the private and public sectors, right? If it's so egregiously illegal, why does the state engage quota-based hiring on an institutional level?

Simple, one paragraph answer please, with direct citations.

I'm going off an HR textbook and class I took a couple semesters back. And yes, I realize that makes whatever I learned an idealized version that doesn't necessarily reflect the real thing (though the professor had worked in HR in the past), but I think I've already established that. As for citation, citing a textbook and notes is a little tricky here. That said, I don't see you citing where you found "HR insists on quota hiring," either. The difference is I don't accuse you of being full of shiat for it.

uksocal		2010-06-02 11:30:55 AM

It's not even a job, it's a poorly paying training program, based on a law that has been on the books for decades, and which has nothing to do with filling a quota. I'm not seeing the big issue here.

Sibling Infantry Mortar of Skeptical Inquiry		2010-06-02 11:32:07 AM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: jst3p: and to pretend that subtle, unintentional or blatant racism won't help him in small ways most of the journey is to be wilfully ignorant. Again, I am not saying affirmative action is a good thing, but there is a problem still.

I work in science and academia, which is dominated by white males. The mantra in the hiring process at my university is to go out of your way to NOT hire any more white males; it doesn't really matter if they are the best fit for the job, you need to get more minorities and women into faculty positions. There is even money set aside in the graduate school budget specifically for non-white-male hires. A friend of mine recently got a job in NY only after the entire department's faculty went to war with management to hire him (a white male) when management demanded they go with their second choice because she was female.

I bet a multiracial intersex lesbian could do pretty well in academia.

SomeoneTX79		2010-06-02 11:34:40 AM

Molavian: I wouldn't trust a white person as far as I could throw them, which isn't very far. Mostly because they're fat.

good because I am too lazy to walk back to my chair

dittybopper		2010-06-02 11:36:39 AM

Ok Lady: dittybopper: Leskay: SuperDuper28: Happens all the time. Only thing is the employer usually doesn't announce it to the world they just privately descrimiate by being selective with the applications when they have to fill their minority quota.

Taqueesha Sprewell was wondering why all her job applications came to naught, and thanks you for this insight.

Gee, if her parents had named her something that was not obviously ethnic than it wouldn't have been a problem, would it? She would have at least gotten an interview, and that can go a long way towards getting the job.

Maybe that's not fair, but one of the best pieces of advice my father ever gave me was "life is not fair".

word to condoleeza rice and barack obama.

They succeeded despite the disadvantage of having obviously ethnic names, but I'd also point out that in both cases their parents made sure they got the best possible education for them. Impressive education credentials can make up for a lot, and neither name is 'low-rent' ethnic. One is derived from Italian, and the other is authentically foreign.

Molavian		2010-06-02 11:36:58 AM

sinn0cent: ///never understand why men want to curl up with a woman that feels like a 10 year old boy!

Maybe guys like to grab some boob and know that it's boob instead of a flap of belly fat.

jst3p		2010-06-02 11:37:49 AM

SomeoneTX79: Molavian: I wouldn't trust a white person as far as I could throw them, which isn't very far. Mostly because they're fat.

good because I am too lazy to walk back to my chair

Overweight and obesity in the U.S. occur at higher rates in racial / ethnic minority populations such as African American and Hispanic Americans, compared with White Americans.

Link

fisker		2010-06-02 11:38:31 AM

Korzine: RealFarknMcCoy2: fisker: you can't be racist white people, it's like saying americans have an accent.

Americans do have an accent, you moran.

Technically no, American English would be a dialect.

An American accent would be what happens when an American speaks a non-native language.

the point I was trying to make didn't come out correctly when I wrote this. I meant you can't be racist against white people. still, that's the joke. you can only be racist to nubians, chinks, spics, and wops. whitey is immune. suck it world.

/white, and proud
//damn it feels good to be a gangster.

RockofAges		2010-06-02 11:40:07 AM

Mr. McPeanut: RockofAges: Mr. McPeanut: RockofAges: Mr. McPeanut:

Which is why HR insists on quota hiring, both in the private and public sectors, right? If it's so egregiously illegal, why does the state engage quota-based hiring on an institutional level?

Simple, one paragraph answer please, with direct citations.

I'm going off an HR textbook and class I took a couple semesters back. And yes, I realize that makes whatever I learned an idealized version that doesn't necessarily reflect the real thing (though the professor had worked in HR in the past), but I think I've already established that. As for citation, citing a textbook and notes is a little tricky here. That said, I don't see you citing where you found "HR insists on quota hiring," either. The difference is I don't accuse you of being full of shiat for it.

Wiki:

Employment equity refers to Canadian policies that require or encourage preferential treatment in employment practices for certain designated groups: women, people with disabilities, Aboriginal peoples, and visible minorities.[1] Employment equity goes beyond mere non-discrimination in requiring these specific groups be targeted for proactive treatment.

...

http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0208/np020821.htm

George Jonas, "National Post"

This paper reported on Monday that the federal government has spent $30-million on a program called "Embracing Change." Beginning in March, the plan will set a quota of 20% for visible minorities in hiring and promotion for Canada's civil service. This will be in addition to other set-asides for native people and women.

The government's word isn't "quota," of course. It's "target." Even their supporters sense there's something wrong with quotas, so they prefer to use other names for them. (One can quickly see, by the way, if there's anything wrong with something because the people who propose it will call it something else.)...

...

Look at the awesome doublespeak / circular argumentation going on here from the University of Western Ontario!

Question: Shouldn't all workers be treated equally in the workplace?

Answer:
"The biggest injustice is to treat equally things which are unequal" - Aristotle.

Experience and social research show that equality of rights or equal treatment is not sufficient to achieve equality of opportunities in society and in the workplace. This is why employment equity programs have been created, to overcome these inequities and to enhance employment opportunities for members of the designated groups. Employment equity means treating everyone with fairness, taking into account people's differences.

http://www.uwo.ca/equity/employment/faq.htm

---

So yes, the reality hidden behind all of the HR weasel words (and let's be honest, HR is essentially a weasel-word job along with most Communications and PR work) is that there is a distinct "aire of diversity" that must be "maintained".

And, praytell sir, just how do you "create an aire of diversity" in the workplace? Do you do it by hiring white applicants or...... ________________ you can fill the blank in, son. You're a smart kid!

Molavian		2010-06-02 11:41:42 AM

jst3p: SomeoneTX79: Molavian: I wouldn't trust a white person as far as I could throw them, which isn't very far. Mostly because they're fat.

good because I am too lazy to walk back to my chair

Overweight and obesity in the U.S. occur at higher rates in racial / ethnic minority populations such as African American and Hispanic Americans, compared with White Americans.

Link

Shut up, fatty. I'll have none of your pandering to the masses in this thread.

sinn0cent		2010-06-02 11:42:28 AM

the major issue at hand is that no job should be help open for any one because of their color, sex or religion. This is where we as adults need to realize that the job needs to be merit only...EARN IT. Stop relying upon other factors to get you a job that you didn't earn and stop holding people back who have earned them. If you spend the time and effort to excel in any situation that should be rewarded. Though I am personally of the live and let live mind set the affirmative action stipulation does irritates me. I understand that when it was enacted it was to be-spell the racisms that where keeping minorities out of certain jobs, which needed to happen at that time...however it has ballooned so far past that now that we have persons that are not qualified to do the work (all races, sexes & religions) but kept so that the employer does not come under fire, this also makes the other co-workers have to take the extra work, causing a poor work environment and loss of productivity....

here's the deal...work for the job...be the best at it or go home. No matter what color you are or where your from.

steamingpile		2010-06-02 11:43:04 AM

Ennuipoet: That's because white people are lazy, shiftless and can't be trusted. Most of these lazy whiteys will probably just steal from you anyway. Honestly, I don't know we don't just send the all back where they came from.

/cracker
//being lazy at work right now

Its only racist when its done to black peoples, when its done to white people its called getting even.

jst3p		2010-06-02 11:43:39 AM

Molavian: jst3p: SomeoneTX79: Molavian: I wouldn't trust a white person as far as I could throw them, which isn't very far. Mostly because they're fat.

good because I am too lazy to walk back to my chair

Overweight and obesity in the U.S. occur at higher rates in racial / ethnic minority populations such as African American and Hispanic Americans, compared with White Americans.

Link

Shut up, fatty. I'll have none of your pandering to the masses in this thread.

Heh.

HotWingConspiracy		2010-06-02 11:43:40 AM

dittybopper: HotWingConspiracy: dittybopper: Leskay: SuperDuper28: Happens all the time. Only thing is the employer usually doesn't announce it to the world they just privately descrimiate by being selective with the applications when they have to fill their minority quota.

Taqueesha Sprewell was wondering why all her job applications came to naught, and thanks you for this insight.

Gee, if her parents had named her something that was not obviously ethnic than it wouldn't have been a problem, would it? She would have at least gotten an interview, and that can go a long way towards getting the job.

Maybe that's not fair, but one of the best pieces of advice my father ever gave me was "life is not fair".

I say that to anti-tax people all of the time. They only want life to be unfair for poor people though.

What kind of "anti-tax" people? Or do you mean "anti-PROGRESSIVE tax" people?

The types who mock the poor by telling them that life isn't fair, then complain about the taxes that they pay on the grounds of the amount being unfair. I'm sure it makes sense in their head.

*That kind of gives me an idea: Maybe I should write some software to do that for unemployed people. Have it interface with the online job posting sites, state labor departments, etc. Make it free, and it can be my gift to those who want to work.

I'd use it. I'm currently employed, but always looking.

Thudfark		2010-06-02 11:44:14 AM

sinn0cent: Molavian

I wouldn't trust a white person as far as I could throw them, which isn't very far. Mostly because they're fat.

Thats right! So shop for your sharp knees fems outside the U.S.A from now on!

/fatty
//bleach white but Native American
///never understand why men want to curl up with a woman that feels like a 10 year old boy!

Neither do I. But I'm not sure how I should feel that when I was a ten year old boy, no men wanted to curl up with me either.

/Thinks you're huggable

xtragrind		2010-06-02 11:44:18 AM

el wharrrgarblo: xtragrind: jst3p: Oh noes! Now we will have to take one of the other 99.99999% of crappy entry level jobs out there!

My brother has been trying to get a state job here for months. The Ohio systems makes you check a race box as you apply for a position. He has a college degree and was successful in Florida doing appraisals until the housing collapse. He has applied for state jobs that he is qualified for and other entry level positions that he is way over-qualified for. For two months he hasn't heard a single thing out of the state. Two weeks ago he decided to check "black" when he applied. So far he is 2/2 with callbacks to set up interviews.

We still aren't sure what is going to happen when he actually shows up for the interviews...

Just saying that something is very screwed up currently...

Tell him to sue. Those firefighters did it.

What you described doesn't help anybody. It puts people in posistions they aren't qualified for, and makes other people resent them.

This is bad all the way around. If you think otherwise, there may very well be something wrong with your brain.

We were talking about this the other night. My brother honestly just wants a job. He doesn't want to start a whole bunch of drama.... He just wants to get his foot in the door downtown. He normally gets a long with everybody (social=left/fiscal=conservative) but this situation has seriously pissed him off regarding his stance on some racial issues.

We are expecting him to just not get hired. How do you prove that a hiring decision was made because a white guy showed up to a interview where the application says he is black?

He is so over-qualified for the job he is interviewing for this week it is stupid. They basically just want someone to make photo copies of city real estate files ($17 per hour though)... My brother has a college degree and almost 6 years in real estate experience.

The whole situation is making him hate life honestly.

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