FARK.com: (5327982) US Army discovering that it's M-4 rifles are no match for the Taliban's more primitive, but longer range, weapons; a discovery previously made by the Soviets in the 1980's and the British in the 1830's

If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

		US Army discovering that it's M-4 rifles are no match for the Taliban's more primitive, but longer range, weapons; a discovery previously made by the Soviets in the 1980's and the British in the 1830's (abcnews.go.com)		466
		More: Obvious

• • •

26340 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 May 2010 at 1:08 PM | Favorite | share:

Share this link:

URL:

http://fark.com/go/5327982

Bookmark:

Article Comments close

466 Comments (+0 »)

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | » | Last | Show all

Harold_of_the_Rocks		2010-05-21 04:12:46 PM

The_Terminator: Harold_of_the_Rocks: Well, the Brits were on the right track in the late 1940s with the .280 British (7mm MK1Z) and the Bullpup EM-2 rifle, but then the good old USA forced the 7.62 x 51 mm as the standard NATO round. Which was too powerful for a light assault weapon, so we then forced NATO to adopt the 5.56 x 45 mm. So now we're inventing things as an improvement on the 5.56 like the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel, which are basically....the .280 British.

USA! USA! USA!

Clearly my interest in military small arms makes me a total hippie. Now excuse me while I finish converting this CZ-75 into a bong.

Mr.Insightful		2010-05-21 04:13:12 PM

What a total crock of bullsh-t.The taliban can't hit the broad side of a barn (new window).

Even at the end of this article, the real troops in the field say so.

Lt. Scott Doyle, a platoon commander in Zhari, said his troops are usually facing Taliban AK-47s.

"When the Taliban get past 300 meters (1,000 feet) with an AK-47, they are just spraying and praying," he said.

The headline was made up just to stir up a bunch of page views.

dittybopper		2010-05-21 04:13:27 PM

no talent ass clown:
dittybopper:Dude, I've owned a bunch of different military style guns in my day, been in the US Army, and I've even written my own ballistics software (used it to pick what caliber longrifle I wanted when I was buying the pieces parts). I'm pretty sure I have at least an inkling of the issues.

Thats not what ballistics software does. It sounds like you taught yourself how to buy stuff online.

I used it to pick which caliber round ball would be the best compromise between speed and velocity retention. Turns out for round ball for deer sized game and up, .54 caliber is the best 'compromise': Smaller calibers are OK for deer but tend to lack oomph for things like bear and elk, and bigger calibers have trajectories that preclude accurate aiming with traditional fixed sights (without 'Kentucky Elevation') past 75 yards or so.

Mainly, I was looking at drop out to 100 or so yards, and retained energy to see which retained the most energy while dropping the least, which is precisely the type of comparison that ballistics software does. Plus, I added in few things like TKO and game weight formulas for comparison.

I had to write it myself because at the time I couldn't find software that was optimised for that particular situation: dead soft lead round balls.

Oh, and you couldn't buy the parts online when I was buying them for the rifle. You had to order them out of the paper catalog.

/They have a website now.
//This was well over a decade ago.

g4lt		2010-05-21 04:14:05 PM

Oznog: Here's an obscure one:

The Barrett 50-cal M82A2, 1987.

Those who don't read the comments are bound to repeat them. To be fair, the pic I posted was the actual BMG, which is more what I think of when I think of for "things I'd like to use in a firefight"

Mock26		2010-05-21 04:14:16 PM

Harold_of_the_Rocks: Well, the Brits were on the right track in the late 1940s with the .280 British (7mm MK1Z) and the Bullpup EM-2 rifle, but then the good old USA forced the 7.62 x 51 mm as the standard NATO round. Which was too powerful for a light assault weapon, so we then forced NATO to adopt the 5.56 x 45 mm. So now we're inventing things as an improvement on the 5.56 like the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel, which are basically....the .280 British.

USA! USA! USA!

We did not force NATO to accept our rounds. We merely pointed out that in a war we would be able to churn out butt loads more ammo than all of NATO combined and that if everyone was using the same standard round we would be more than happy to share it with them.

dittybopper		2010-05-21 04:18:08 PM

dittybopper: Mainly, I was looking at drop out to 100 or so yards, and retained energy to see which retained the most energy while dropping the least, which is precisely the type of comparison that ballistics software does.

Let me rephrase that: It's the type of comparison that ballistics software allows you to do.

It was surprisingly hard to find ballistics software that would accept a caliber above .60" at the time, and .62" caliber was one of the ones I was considering.

Ack_Ack		2010-05-21 04:19:00 PM

Ack_Ack: The_Sponge: skillett: ///Vietnam vet

Off the subject:

Regarding a recent thread on the politics tab, were you ever spit on when you came back to the U.S.? Do you know anyone who did? Some people were making the ridiculous assumption that it NEVER happened.

/And thank you for your service.
//Fellow gun nut.

Don't remember where I read it, but I've heard about that as well. The logic went something like there are no documented images or films of this happening, and the story was that it was women spitting on the soldiers... and women don't spit. Something like that. Can't for the life of me remember where I heard it though.

Looks like there was a book about it: The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam,

Found a bit more of the relevant info here (new window) .

The_Terminator		2010-05-21 04:19:34 PM

Harold_of_the_Rocks: Now excuse me while I finish converting this CZ-75 into a bong.

Something tells me that would be highly unsafe... :p

fireclown		2010-05-21 04:19:49 PM

/just sayin'

TheShavingofOccam123		2010-05-21 04:19:58 PM

Breaker Morant taught me if you're going to shoot brown people at a distance, then the .303 is what you want.

/Bryan Brown is optional

Sgt Otter		2010-05-21 04:22:10 PM

The_Sponge: Sgt Otter: Said certain correspondent has built a name for himself on a grossly exaggerated Army career, despite never been deployed to a combat zone, or being on a Special Forces ODA team, despite his chyron listing him as "FORMER ARMY SPECIAL FORCES." I'm sure some of you can put two and two together.

Er....um...I'm still drawing a blank. EIP if you don't want to post the name here.

You have email. I think.

RsquaredW		2010-05-21 04:22:10 PM

Ack_Ack: Don't remember where I read it, but I've heard about that as well. The logic went something like there are no documented images or films of this happening, and the story was that it was women spitting on the soldiers... and women don't spit. Something like that. Can't for the life of me remember where I heard it though.

Maybe because it's from a movie?

// conservatives sometimes have trouble separating reality and fiction
// cf. Atlas Shrugged, Reagan's "piloting", Scalia's man-crush on Jack Bauer, everything Breitbart whines about...

7wolf		2010-05-21 04:32:58 PM

Never used an assault rifle. My grandfather was always fond of the FN FAL, but he used that in Rhodesia against people with AK 47's, so I have no idea how relevant it is in Afghanistan.

The_Sponge		2010-05-21 04:35:40 PM

Sgt Otter: You have email. I think.

I do, and thank you.

/Would have never made a correct guess.

Harold_of_the_Rocks		2010-05-21 04:36:08 PM

Mock26: Harold_of_the_Rocks: Well, the Brits were on the right track in the late 1940s with the .280 British (7mm MK1Z) and the Bullpup EM-2 rifle, but then the good old USA forced the 7.62 x 51 mm as the standard NATO round. Which was too powerful for a light assault weapon, so we then forced NATO to adopt the 5.56 x 45 mm. So now we're inventing things as an improvement on the 5.56 like the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel, which are basically....the .280 British.

USA! USA! USA!

We did not force NATO to accept our rounds. We merely pointed out that in a war we would be able to churn out butt loads more ammo than all of NATO combined and that if everyone was using the same standard round we would be more than happy to share it with them.

Yeah, but the .280 British would have made a better standard round that we could have produced butt loads of. As a matter of fact, the .276 Pedersen (a round with similar ballistics in a larger case) almost became US standard in the M1 Garand before WWII.

Personally, I think something like the Springfield SOCOM II (new window)except chambered in .260 Remington would be the ideal weapon.

Harold_of_the_Rocks		2010-05-21 04:39:02 PM

Of course, the most dangerous thing I've ever faced down with a gun was a copperhead, so I could just be blowing smoke out of my butt, too.

I'm just thinking in terms of lower recoil and good trajectory. Whoever mentioned the old .30-30 lever action above makes a pretty good case for a non-"assault rifle" assault rifle.

Glass Joe		2010-05-21 04:39:13 PM

Here's your old reliable Chauchat. You're welcome.

armesfrancaises.free.fr

Animatronik		2010-05-21 04:39:49 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: Breaker Morant taught me if you're going to shoot brown people at a distance, then the .303 is what you want.

/Bryan Brown is optional

Well now that's interesting, because Breaker Morant is about the Boer war, whites v. whites.

BigLuca		2010-05-21 04:47:17 PM

Animatronik: knightofargh: dittybopper: Errrm, if they are that accurate, why is this diagnostic target funny?

snerk

I'll have to check out that M-94. What is it chambered in usually?

You are a wealth of knowledge regarding old school firearms.

The chambering depends on the maker. the classic lever action caliber is 30-30, which is a perfectly good round. also 38 sp, .357, .44mag, .45., up to the old 45-70 (speaking of old school, I have the original single shot rifle that fired this cartridge, the U.S. army rifle of 1872). If you want light recoil, 38 special is good, 45-70 is a beast.

Don't forget the 32spec. I've hunted with a model 94 Winchester in 32spec for the last 21 years. And my uncle hunted with the same gun for 40 years before it was past down to me. I've hit running deer at 140 yards with it.

I think Henry rifles makes one of the better model 94s, but it's a little expensive. Rossi makes a cheaper version. Although you get get a pre-1964 Winchester model 94 for under $400. I have heard though that most of the people that are fanatical about old west style shooting prefer a model 1892. It was made for pistol calibers and his a short smooth action. A discussion about it here. (new window)

FlashHarry		2010-05-21 04:49:31 PM

Skleenar: Shabash, Huzoor!

Perhaps you might be interested in a few of our finest Jezzails?

hey, where'd you get that picture of me?

Animatronik		2010-05-21 04:52:50 PM

dittybopper: Marlin makes an excellent and handy little .45-70 lever action called the 'Guide Gun'. It's a thumper, but it will knock down pretty much anything in North America.

Only drawback in this case: It's a right-hand eject so it'll likely put hot brass right up the nose of a lefty.

That's true but Marlin does make a top eject in the smaller calibers.
I thought about getting the guide gun, but since I have a trap door 45-70 that can be fired at the range, I decided I didn't want to risk someone in my family accidentally firing the more powerful Marlin round in the wrong gun - risk of a bad accident. The 45-70 is a long black powder cartridge where most of the brass is empty, so it's kind of ridiculous to even be using it anymore.

Animatronik		2010-05-21 04:58:16 PM

BigLuca: Don't forget the 32spec. I've hunted with a model 94 Winchester in 32spec for the last 21 years. And my uncle hunted with the same gun for 40 years before it was past down to me. I've hit running deer at 140 yards with it.

I think Henry rifles makes one of the better model 94s, but it's a little expensive. Rossi makes a cheaper version. Although you get get a pre-1964 Winchester model 94 for under $400. I have heard though that most of the people that are fanatical about old west style shooting prefer a model 1892. It was made for pistol calibers and his a short smooth action. A discussion about it here. (new window)

That would be cool to have too.
For the original lefty who asked about it, I'd recommend a model 94 style rifle in 44 magnum or 30-30 for deer hunting, as dittybopper said. I have a 30-30 that is very accurate at 50-100 yards with open sights, and a 12 year old can fire it comfortably.
If you want a scoped rifle, go for a bolt action with the bolt on the left side I guess.

morsmortis		2010-05-21 04:59:33 PM

The Marine Corps trains every Marine to engage targets at 500 yards with the M-16/M-4, but at these ranges the 5.56 round has no fragmentation. Instead, it has a similar wounding blastic of a .22lr. The 5.56 doesn't really have any inate stopping power in firefights at close range either, but it has low recoil and the ability to create mortal wounds with its frangibility even if the shooter misses a kill spot. Pain is a pretty big motivator to sit the fark down, but it doesn't always work out that way. Some individuals, especially those whose primary motivation in life is to kill American's, keep going until you put one in their dome.

I still have nightmares about the M-16's lack of stopping power.

The Smails Kid		2010-05-21 04:59:55 PM

mdking09		2010-05-21 05:02:59 PM

me harts teh gun pron!!!

X_Raraavis		2010-05-21 05:06:23 PM

Just deployed to Afghanistan for field testing. Scheduled general issue 2013.

XM-25 25mm Airburst Grenade Launcher. Can engage point targets out to 750 meters.

www.army.mil

NCHeel		2010-05-21 05:06:24 PM

mdking09: Anyone actually fired an FNH SCAR-H.. thats a 7.62 NATO round.. why isn't that more frequently issued? cost? surly not performance.
I have fired one. The hold up is acceptance from the Pentagon and production. FNH USA was just awarded a contract from what I was told and they are getting ready to start producing them at their Columbia S.C. plant. Part of the contract is that they have to be produced in the USA not Belgium. I have a civilian model (SCAR 17S) pre-ordered and will get it as soon as they have them stamped made in the USA. greenhulk.net

Merkin For The Weekend		2010-05-21 05:06:29 PM

Slightly off topic question for those who are a bit gun nuttier than I am (in a good way): Is anyone making an 1885 Browning High Wall/Low Wall receiver in stainless steel?

beowulf980		2010-05-21 05:06:32 PM

hausman007: The new weapons the SF picked up are H&K 416's, more or less am M-4 with a piston operating system.

Bullpup weapons are nice except that the shell casing ejects right into the face of a left handed shooter and most of them need an armorer to change that. It means that you can't just pick up someone else's weapon if they shoot with the opposite hand. It also means that it is harder to shoot with your off hand.

Brass recycling is a big deal for the Army considering how much ammo they go through. Anyone who has been on a range can tell you the time spent post firing policing brass for turn in.

Oh God yeah especially after firing the 240 and 249

Merkin For The Weekend		2010-05-21 05:07:52 PM

X_Raraavis: Just deployed to Afghanistan for field testing. Scheduled general issue 2013.

XM-25 25mm Airburst Grenade Launcher. Can engage point targets out to 750 meters.

i bet that think kicks like a MOTHERfarkER.

Merkin For The Weekend		2010-05-21 05:08:41 PM

Merkin For The Weekend: X_Raraavis: Just deployed to Afghanistan for field testing. Scheduled general issue 2013.

XM-25 25mm Airburst Grenade Launcher. Can engage point targets out to 750 meters.

i bet that think kicks like a MOTHERfarkER.

thing, even.

mdking09		2010-05-21 05:08:44 PM

NCHeel: mdking09: Anyone actually fired an FNH SCAR-H.. thats a 7.62 NATO round.. why isn't that more frequently issued? cost? surly not performance.
I have fired one. The hold up is acceptance from the Pentagon and production. FNH USA was just awarded a contract from what I was told and they are getting ready to start producing them at their Columbia S.C. plant. Part of the contract is that they have to be produced in the USA not Belgium. I have a civilian model (SCAR 17S) pre-ordered and will get it as soon as they have them stamped made in the USA.

Thats good news at least, thanks for the info.. sweet gun btw.. pretty jealous myself

moresugar		2010-05-21 05:14:33 PM

Glass Joe: Here's your old reliable Chauchat. You're welcome.

As a machine gun, the Chauchat proved to be a very good bicycle.

Animatronik		2010-05-21 05:18:28 PM

morsmortis: The Marine Corps trains every Marine to engage targets at 500 yards with the M-16/M-4, but at these ranges the 5.56 round has no fragmentation. Instead, it has a similar wounding blastic of a .22lr. The 5.56 doesn't really have any inate stopping power in firefights at close range either, but it has low recoil and the ability to create mortal wounds with its frangibility even if the shooter misses a kill spot. Pain is a pretty big motivator to sit the fark down, but it doesn't always work out that way. Some individuals, especially those whose primary motivation in life is to kill American's, keep going until you put one in their dome.

I still have nightmares about the M-16's lack of stopping power.

Exactly

I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but anyone who says a .223 is "fine" at 500 meters probably doesn't understand simple ballistics very well. the .223 is a very light round compared to the sniper .308. this means that at around 500 meters, with a typical load, the .223 has 1/5 the energy in ft. lbs of a .308, with typical loads. Barrel length, etc. aren't going to make up for an inherent difference in momentum of the bullet.
that's why the M24 and M40 are modified rem 700s in .308. It's the perfect round for sniping.

Not That Interested		2010-05-21 05:19:02 PM

Animatronik: BigLuca: Don't forget the 32spec. I've hunted with a model 94 Winchester in 32spec for the last 21 years. And my uncle hunted with the same gun for 40 years before it was past down to me. I've hit running deer at 140 yards with it.

I think Henry rifles makes one of the better model 94s, but it's a little expensive. Rossi makes a cheaper version. Although you get get a pre-1964 Winchester model 94 for under $400. I have heard though that most of the people that are fanatical about old west style shooting prefer a model 1892. It was made for pistol calibers and his a short smooth action. A discussion about it here. (new window)

That would be cool to have too.
For the original lefty who asked about it, I'd recommend a model 94 style rifle in 44 magnum or 30-30 for deer hunting, as dittybopper said. I have a 30-30 that is very accurate at 50-100 yards with open sights, and a 12 year old can fire it comfortably.
If you want a scoped rifle, go for a bolt action with the bolt on the left side I guess.

Left handed shooter/gun nut here. I can't recall a single time hot brass has landed on me with any lever or semiauto unless it bounced off something. Usually it flies past my right shoulder (semiauto) or drops between the rifle and my right arm (bolts and levers.) That would probably not be the case with a bullpup but they aren't very practical for hunting. Right handed bolts are easy for lefty shooters with practice (see sniper guy in Saving Private Ryan) and they don't cost as much as left hand bolt rifles.
My 2 cent.

archichris		2010-05-21 05:19:30 PM

This is another article highlighting the fact that some people cannot tell the difference between a weapon and a tactic.

The Afghans noticed that their ancient rifles had pretty good range so they attacked from longer ranges. Adapting our weapons to fight them at that range will just result in a change in their tactics. We should be changing our tactics to make their range advantage immaterial.

Changing weapons deployment could take longer than the war.

If it must be a change in weapons deployment then at least step up to a round that offers LONGER range than the enemy is operating at. The Idea that we want to match their range is silly.

/I remember Art Lilley, sniper, killed in Afghanistan.

rel-yo		2010-05-21 05:19:58 PM

So we've been there for 8 FARKING YEARS and they just now realized that? WTF!?!?!?!?

Bigman397		2010-05-21 05:21:02 PM

Sgt Otter: meanyogurt: I believe the Army needs to break out the M14 again. Why reinvent the wheel, when the older model will work fine.

its my favorite

//arm chair warrior

rka		2010-05-21 05:24:39 PM

Bad_Seed: You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours...But even at these odds you will lose and I will win.

The point of the article though was on individual killing/stopping power. Not geopolitical strategy.

I don't think the US is at a disadvantage in the killing realm. Rifle doesn't do the job? Just call in a bigger gun/artillery/air strike.

It's not as if the US Army just had a better rifle with which to kill more people then all the problems inherent in being in the Middle East would just go away. A better kill ratio isn't going to do the trick.

ObeliskToucher		2010-05-21 05:28:05 PM

X_Raraavis: XM-25 25mm Airburst Grenade Launcher. Can engage point targets out to 750 meters.

Shiny... good to see something useful come out of the OICW program.

globalwarmingpraiser		2010-05-21 05:28:12 PM

EmployeeOfTheMinute: AR-10. PROBLEM SOLVED
CAme here to say this. On my wishlist. BP is going to wind up buyng it for me.

archichris		2010-05-21 05:28:27 PM

Mr.Insightful: What a total crock of bullsh-t.The taliban can't hit the broad side of a barn (new window).

Even at the end of this article, the real troops in the field say so. Lt. Scott Doyle, a platoon commander in Zhari, said his troops are usually facing Taliban AK-47s.

"When the Taliban get past 300 meters (1,000 feet) with an AK-47, they are just spraying and praying," he said. The headline was made up just to stir up a bunch of page views.

My ak shooting .223 is only 4 inch accurate at less than 200 yards, more like 100 to be certain. My buddies old 7.62 ak is like shooting a paint ball rifle as far as accuracy goes. I am not an OCD range a holic, but my 5.7 is an order of magnitude more accurate than any of the ak style weapons I have fired regardless of the round.

The Police swat team snipers practice at the range I belong to. They just laugh when anyone asks them about AK's.

EmployeeOfTheMinute		2010-05-21 05:35:16 PM

globalwarmingpraiser: CAme here to say this. On my wishlist. BP is going to wind up buyng it for me.

The DPMS LR-308. Very accurate. Only criticism: DPMS had a quality control issue with their magazines. I got 2 bad magazines with mine. Also, I am not convinced that the AR-10 is a better gun than the M14

tlchwi02		2010-05-21 05:35:29 PM

archichris: My ak shooting .223 is only 4 inch accurate at less than 200 yards, more like 100 to be certain. My buddies old 7.62 ak is like shooting a paint ball rifle as far as accuracy goes. I am not an OCD range a holic, but my 5.7 is an order of magnitude more accurate than any of the ak style weapons I have fired regardless of the round.The Police swat team snipers practice at the range I belong to. They just laugh when anyone asks them about AK's.

The AK is a known for lot of positive things. Accuracy is not one of those things- even in perfect condition (which one of these linked articles points out is far from the case in afghanistan.)

archichris		2010-05-21 05:36:00 PM

Oznog: Here's an obscure one:

The Barrett 50-cal M82A2, 1987.
Note there are two different configs here: the upper shows an over-the-shoulder with the mag and shoulder pad integrated, for use while moving. Or, I guess, a sitting position. The lower is more conventional, and while less front-heavy than an M82A1, it'd still generally require bipod support from a fixed object.

Not sure why this didn't catch on. Well, the Barrett 50-cal is not a high rate of fire weapon, it relies on accurately placed rounds. So walking around like it's an assault rifle will discard its long-range accuracy, so you've just got an absurdly low-rate-of-fire carbine with absurdly high penetration. Which doesn't fit the bill.

But it's still AWESOME, in the way that Schwarzenegger carrying around a minigun is awesome.

The bipod config, now that's interesting. I couldn't go much through the subtle pros and cons of the bullpup, but I gotta note it's probably mostly the same weight, just shorter. And it won't accommodate left-handed shooters, they'd get blinded by a blast of hot gas and brass in the face. The hot brass might land on your arm. Actually, this means the spotter can't be on the right either. Not unless it was taken out of semi-auto and the bolt were manually operated so it wouldn't open the breech immediately after firing. That's probably what killed it.

Couple of things.

I am told that the .50 is a bad sniper round. Barrett was building a proof of concept gun. Concept proven. Now it seems like they have designed new sniper rounds and have launched a new weapons platform for the new rounds.

Also I am told by a sniper that they love the Barrett for certain things but no one likes humping the ammo boxes around.

BigLuca		2010-05-21 05:40:13 PM

The Smails Kid: BigLuca: Don't forget the 32spec. I've hunted with a model 94 Winchester in 32spec for the last 21 years. And my uncle hunted with the same gun for 40 years before it was past down to me. I've hit running deer at 140 yards with it.

What's .32 spec? I have a Winchester 92 in .32-20, aka .32 W.C.F.

/I know, google is my friend

A Winchester .32 Special (new window). A not very common round made for the model 94 Winchester that is very similar to a 30-30. Ammo is expensive as hell too. I love my gun, but I would recommend 30-30 or 44mag over a 32 special if someone was thinking of getting one.

OregonVet		2010-05-21 05:42:00 PM

The_Sponge: The_Sponge: OregonVet: LOL. Why don't you put on a uniform and walk across a state university campus near you today and find out if that still happens.

I fail to see how that would prove or disprove whether or not some Vietnam veterams were spit on when they came back home.

Fark it....I shouldn't have been serious about that.

Besides, you have enough assholes pretending they were in the military...I don't need to be one of them.

*cheers*

/actually a Gulf I vet

TheShavingofOccam123		2010-05-21 05:47:51 PM

Animatronik: TheShavingofOccam123: Breaker Morant taught me if you're going to shoot brown people at a distance, then the .303 is what you want.

/Bryan Brown is optional

Well now that's interesting, because Breaker Morant is about the Boer war, whites v. whites.

All I can say in my defense is the German preacher had a deep tan.

Oh and post this link about the Plevna delay where the Turkish army used rolling block action rifles and shorter range lever action rifles to slaughter Russian infantry.

TheShavingofOccam123		2010-05-21 05:48:45 PM

This link about the Plevna delay

Gleeman		2010-05-21 05:52:06 PM

Merkin For The Weekend: muck4doo: M-1 Garand. It was good enough to kill Nazis, so it should work on Talibanees too.

/Is that a godwin?

The problem with the M1 Garand-

BLAM. BLAM. BLAM. BLAM. BLAM. BLAM. BLAM. BLAM. Ping!

I see you have the rifle that goes PING!

IRT article:
ljforestier.com