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(Salon)   The GOP has once again heroically stopped science in its tracks. Take that, "science"   (salon.com) divider line 646
    More: Hero, Linda McMahon, sex discriminations, skinny jeans, cloture, gels, Mick Jagger, Cannes, write-in campaign  
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49111 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 May 2010 at 9:25 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-05-19 11:25:22 PM  
Doc Lee: Bonzo_1116:
I wonder how much public funding Edison got for his stuff?

Edison was a huge supporter of government funding of science and technology for the benefit of the people.

Link (new window)


Edison was also a schmuck who went around electrocuting animals to denounce AC and pretty much a general all around scumbag who didn't want to spend a single penny of his own money on anything.

I'm quite sure Edison wanted the government to foot all his bills while he ran around trying to strangle every ounce of Tesla's private support. I don't doubt it for a second.
 
2010-05-19 11:25:49 PM  
So do the Dems just not care that they're coming off as completely ineffectual pussies in all this nonsense?
 
2010-05-19 11:26:01 PM  
Nocens: The private sector is where new science is achieved.

Unequivocal horseshiat.

/the private sector is where public sector & academia developments go to be marketed for consumer purposes
//it has its use... but it ain't to make stuff that we *need*
///private sector = makes stuff that we *want*
 
2010-05-19 11:26:03 PM  
Gawdzila: Manned space flight is expensive, and robots can do more science for the dollar.
It isn't that Dems are against a manned space program, but if you think that the right wingers got loud over science education, imagine the wharrgarble they'd make over increasing NASA's budget. Even I think that's a battle best saved for later, and I am a science nerd weaned on astronomy.

/Crossing my fingers that I'll get to see a man on Mars


Yes. At this point, the whole "Bush points at sky, says MARS time!" is a bit silly. Let NASA do unmanned deep space/interplanetary exploration, and help fund the private sector stroke the monkeys' ego by launching them into the cosmos.
 
2010-05-19 11:26:10 PM  
RobertBruce: Why would funding this have been a proper function of the federal government?

As a country, you must invest in education to prosper in the long run.

Without an educated population, business moves elsewhere for many industry sectors. Without an educated population, the movers and shakers that make the tech and science sectors happen will be fewer and further between. Without an educated population, you don't have people with the aptitude to fill tech jobs.

Without an educated population, you have more people to drink the GOP kool-aid. More ignorant people = more GOP votes. It's sad that they'd shoot our country in the foot in order to pander a few more votes, and perhaps have a choke-hold on our country once again.

The last time we let that happen and GOP had their turn with the majority in Congress, the Presidency and even placing members in the supreme court they promptly let our country go straight to shiat. The GOP brought us the deregulation that allowed the financial market to go to shiat: Link (new window)

The GOP try to peddle themselves as the champion of the average citizen, yet push tax cuts and loopholes for the most wealthy: Link (new window)

GOP leadership ignored their best and brightest to let 911 happen: Link (new window)

The GOP started two wars and let the people who orchistrated the attacks on The World Trade Center go: Link (new window)

Bush on O.B.L. after starting two wars:
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)

The GOP placing a ban on stem cell research allowed the fore-front of that technology to move overseas: Link (new window)

I'm sick to death of the GOP crying crocodile tears about wasteful spending, yet when they're in charge our country hemorrhages money, surplus turns to debt and responsible stewardship or our nation becomes a free for all for those who already have more than they will ever need.

I've had more than enough of the GOP leadership screaming and crying about being persecuted, yet every time they're in control they let our country go to shiat for the benefit of themselves, the very few.

I have respect for actual conservatives, but they seem to be a dying breed. If you guys are still out there, speak up and take your party back. These shiat-clowns who have taken control of the GOP are a farse and do little more than alienate and drag the term conservative through the partisan mud.

Your party lost my respect at neo-con. Whatever this bullshiat blubbering liar crap they're pushing now is downright revolting. While the actions of the GOP leadership in the last elven or twelve years are disingenuous at best, treasonous against our nation and our nations people is clearly more accurate.
 
2010-05-19 11:26:44 PM  
Doc Lee: Bonzo_1116:
I wonder how much public funding Edison got for his stuff?

Edison was a huge supporter of government funding of science and technology for the benefit of the people.

Link (new window)


Freaky! Project funding through direct currency creation/devaluation.
 
2010-05-19 11:26:55 PM  
2theruns: I'll say it again, there should be a math and science aptitude test for the legislative and executive branch with results publicly available.

This.
 
2010-05-19 11:26:56 PM  
Dr Doom: One of my favorite videos about Republicans vs Democrats & science budgets, from one of my favorite scientists:
Link


I love the Pluto-demoter as much as anyone, but that was sophistry. Clinton tried to balance the budget because it was an archetypal weak point for Democrats. It's like saying that "who spends more on entitlements for the needy" and then citing W. and Medicare D vs. Clinton's welfare reform efforts.

The "Republican War on Science" is vastly greater than stem cells and "the environment". Many, many regulatory agencies were either gutted or basically turned over to the industry interests they were supposed to be overseeing under W- Tyson conveniently dismisses that all as "the environment". Uh, no. He dismisses all of the antagonism against NIH spending as "stem cells" when there are many Farkers here who can vouch for the utter crap that is- abstinence only sex ed funding is another example.

I've seen Tyson speak often enough to know that he panders to his crowd and above all seeks to ensure ever increasing funding for science, the latter of which I not only understand but support. But that clip was absolute horseshiat.
 
2010-05-19 11:27:05 PM  
Nocens: "A lot of great inventions came out of the private sector, far more than government has ever produced. The private sector is where new science is achieved."

[Citation needed]
 
2010-05-19 11:27:54 PM  
MiddleyMcCentrist:
/MOAR ROBOTS @_@ beep


i789.photobucket.com

Does not approve.
 
2010-05-19 11:27:59 PM  
Nocens: who didn't want to spend a single penny of his own money on anything.

And he didn't really invent a lot of the stuff he took credit for. After a few initial successes, he set up and ran an R&D lab and just took credit for everything it produced.
 
2010-05-19 11:28:46 PM  
WhyteRaven74: Nocens: The private sector is where new science is achieved

So the private sector pays for Argonne National Laboratory? Do you understand what basic research is?



Do you understand what a telephone is? Do you understand what a cotton gin is? Do you understand what a computer is? Do you understand what pasteurization is?

Maybe you need to go back and read what I said again. Then head over to your nearest dictionary and look up the word "most."
 
2010-05-19 11:28:49 PM  
As someone who is emigrating to Spain after getting a publicly funded degree in Chemical Engineering. I'm really getting a kick out of reaping what one sows.

/I got work there before any US company
//was looking hard here
 
2010-05-19 11:29:22 PM  
How much would the observations and experiments of Newton, Darwin or Einstein cost today in US dollars?
 
2010-05-19 11:29:23 PM  
poursoul: Was listening to Michael Savage yesterday or the day before and he stated that we "no longer have real artists or scientists in this country, none that are known by name, because liberals have torn this country down in the arts."

... discuss ...


The man's confused. We're all being directed by Fellini now.
 
2010-05-19 11:30:36 PM  
Nocens: WhyteRaven74: Nocens: The private sector is where new science is achieved

So the private sector pays for Argonne National Laboratory? Do you understand what basic research is?


Do you understand what a telephone is? Do you understand what a cotton gin is? Do you understand what a computer is? Do you understand what pasteurization is?

Maybe you need to go back and read what I said again. Then head over to your nearest dictionary and look up the word "most."


Nocens: WhyteRaven74: Nocens: The private sector is where new science is achieved

So the private sector pays for Argonne National Laboratory? Do you understand what basic research is?


Do you understand what a telephone is? Do you understand what a cotton gin is? Do you understand what a computer is? Do you understand what pasteurization is?

Maybe you need to go back and read what I said again. Then head over to your nearest dictionary and look up the word "most."


Nocens: WhyteRaven74: Nocens: The private sector is where new science is achieved

So the private sector pays for Argonne National Laboratory? Do you understand what basic research is?


Do you understand what a telephone is? Do you understand what a cotton gin is? Do you understand what a computer is? Do you understand what pasteurization is?

Maybe you need to go back and read what I said again. Then head over to your nearest dictionary and look up the word "most."


You don't find it the least bit ironic that you're arguing about what public research can accomplish over the internet?
 
2010-05-19 11:30:46 PM  
Nocens: A lot of great inventions came out of the private sector, far more than government has ever produced. The private sector is where new science is achieved.

Except that this is complete and total bullsh*t.
"Inventions" are not "new science", they're what engineers do to make money off of the new science that public labs (like, for instance, the LHC) and universities produce. Even Bell Labs, one of the greatest scientific think-tanks to have ever existed, was only possible because Ma Bell was a regulated monopoly; the government required them to spend money on R&D and they had virtually no competition.

After the Bells were broken up and the free market allowed to take over? What used to be Bell Labs doesn't even run a basic physics research lab anymore; they're too busy coming up with the next gadget to stick on a cell phone.

There's your private-sector science. Absofarkinglutely nowhere.
 
2010-05-19 11:31:31 PM  
Zamboro: Nocens: "A lot of great inventions came out of the private sector, far more than government has ever produced. The private sector is where new science is achieved."

[Citation needed]


You need citation for that?
 
2010-05-19 11:31:36 PM  
Nocens: Doc Lee: Bonzo_1116:
I wonder how much public funding Edison got for his stuff?

Edison was a huge supporter of government funding of science and technology for the benefit of the people.

Link (new window)

Edison was also a schmuck who went around electrocuting animals to denounce AC and pretty much a general all around scumbag who didn't want to spend a single penny of his own money on anything.

I'm quite sure Edison wanted the government to foot all his bills while he ran around trying to strangle every ounce of Tesla's private support. I don't doubt it for a second.




Ooooo, sounds familiar.

www.dogwalkblog.com
 
2010-05-19 11:32:27 PM  
ThreeEdgedSword: MiddleyMcCentrist:
/MOAR ROBOTS @_@ beep

Does not approve.


i50.tinypic.com
 
2010-05-19 11:32:31 PM  
TinfoilBerka: RobertBruce: Why would funding this have been a proper function of the federal government?

As a country, you must invest in education to prosper in the long run.

Without an educated population, business moves elsewhere for many industry sectors. Without an educated population, the movers and shakers that make the tech and science sectors happen will be fewer and further between. Without an educated population, you don't have people with the aptitude to fill tech jobs.


That is all absolutely true. "But the Democratic bill "continues to take us in a much more costly direction and authorizes a number of new programs which have little to do with prioritizing investments" in science and technology" is also absolutely true. It was full of pork and it was correct to veto it - kind of like that Healthcare bill full of nickel-and-dime taxes instead of actual, needed healthcare reform.

The rest of your tirade about "the GOP did this, the GOP did that" - you need to check your facts. Those measures were ALL bi-partisan measures. Every. single. one. But please, keep stomping around showing how misinformed and biased you are.
 
2010-05-19 11:32:56 PM  
Science hasn't moved forward in well over 30 years. We're basically living in an age of stagnant science and absolutely no forward progress in the last 50 years or so.
 
2010-05-19 11:34:02 PM  
Nocens: "Do you understand what a telephone is? Do you understand what a cotton gin is? Do you understand what a computer is? Do you understand what pasteurization is?"

I understand what a computer is. I also understand that the development of the first (digital) computer was publicly funded.
 
2010-05-19 11:35:03 PM  
Noam Chimpsky: How much would the observations and experiments of Newton, Darwin or Einstein cost today in US dollars?

How much would a bottle of Nerve Tonic cost today?

What would the music of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven go for?

What would the going rate be for Caveman Jesus fighting a velociraptor on Pay-Per-View cost in 1997?
 
2010-05-19 11:35:04 PM  
Noam Chimpsky: How much would the observations and experiments of Newton, Darwin or Einstein cost today in US dollars?

I'm not sure if that is an entirely valid point. The thing is that those observations and experiments have already been done, and we have since moved forward and built on them. We have shown some of their points to be correct, some to be incorrect, and many to be far more complicated than they imagined. Basically, most if not all of the easy, cheap science has been done, but we can't stop there if we want to get it right. We need to trudge on through the expensive, fiddly, difficult stuff in order to learn, grow, and prosper as a species.
 
2010-05-19 11:35:23 PM  
thamike: "You need citation for that?"

Yes. I'm not willing to take it on faith. Not when a number of the examples he's given so far were actually developed with public funds.
 
2010-05-19 11:36:22 PM  
WhyteRaven74: And he didn't really invent a lot of the stuff he took credit for. After a few initial successes, he set up and ran an R&D lab and just took credit for everything it produced.

Not quite true, I've read a bit about him recently.
He was actually very active in his own R&D lab, which was not very big at all when he made most of his inventions. He was definitely the active leader, and he didn't expand significantly until after he invented the electric light. Then he and his small team invented practically every piece of equipment needed to make the world's first electrical grid function. It was at that point that they invested in a factory to produce all the crap, but by then he was largely devoted to creating a direct-current electrical grid.
 
2010-05-19 11:36:50 PM  
Zamboro: I understand what a computer is. I also understand that the development of the first (digital) computer was publicly funded.

Public funds go into the private sector. Watch out while I tumble down the stairs in disbelief.
 
2010-05-19 11:37:16 PM  
i49.tinypic.com


Science is the most farking awesome thing ever, and people who are afraid of it and try to kill it are the farking enemy.
 
2010-05-19 11:37:24 PM  
Nocens:
Yea, in that light, $40 Billion is farking ridiculous on "general science." A lot of great inventions came out of the private sector, far more than government has ever produced. The private sector is where new science is achieved. The government is there to help develop the most promising ones. $40 Billion to scatter shot "science" is bullshiat.


Sorry, but this is bullshiat. Look at the number of patents issued in the publicly funded system versus the private sector in sciences, particularly biomedical sciences. The public sector is way ahead of the private sector. Furthermore, government funded science has for the past 20 years yielded greater returns than the initial investment. The pipeline for new products basically works exactly the opposite of what you propose. It starts with publicly funded sciences and moves into the private sector. Not the other way around in the vast majority of cases.
 
2010-05-19 11:37:28 PM  
BolloxReader: Wololo: GAT_00: Because the Dems were billing this as a jobs bill so the GOP had to kill it. They're scared of Americans getting jobs.

Has anyone taken a look at pork fat packed into this bill? There's got to be a more intelligent reason why the GOP thought this was a bad idea, at risk of incurring the wrath of rational thinkers/voters across America.

Fat = jobs.

That is all.


Praise the Great Ouroborous (new window) my droogie! Amen Brother, the snake shall eats its tail!
 
2010-05-19 11:37:44 PM  
Nocens: Do you understand what a computer is?

Know who paid for the construction of the earliest computers and who footed the bill for the R&D?
 
2010-05-19 11:37:45 PM  
MiddleyMcCentrist: ThreeEdgedSword: MiddleyMcCentrist:
/MOAR ROBOTS @_@ beep

Does not approve.


i789.photobucket.com
 
2010-05-19 11:38:12 PM  
Did anybody actually READ this bill? It sets out to improve research in areas of green energy, Smart Grid tech, clean manufacturing, and establish and fund grants and scholarships for research and science & engineering students/teachers. The problem is, it's been hacked to pieces by 58 f*cking amendments by representatives all wanting to make sure that the bill includes whichever industry is in their constituency, and encourage the promotion of women and minorities as scholarship recipients. So they propose a great bill and then put up all kinds of barriers to make sure that most of those funds are directed away from the channels where it would be most effective.

18) Rep. Clarke (D-NY): Would ensure that STEM education programs increase participation by women and minority students.

27) Rep. Jackson-Lee (D-TX): Would require the STEM Industry Internship Program report to include an economic and ethnic breakdown of the participating students.

36) Rep. Chu (D-CA): Would clarify that one purpose of the Innovation through Institutional Integration grant program is to help under-represented students in STEM fields transition from 2-year institutions to 4-year institutions of higher education.

38) Rep. Halvorson (D-IL): Would require the Director of the National Science Foundation to give consideration to the goal of promoting the participation of veterans in the postdoctoral research fellowship program established by section 246 of the bill.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am absolutely for equal participation on all parts. But the amendments are chock full of red tape that would make it a real pain in the ass to get any sort of federal funding, and it's been cut in so many pieces that none of that the $40 billion would be spread too thin to be effective in any one area.

I mean, seriously, how many veterans do you think have a doctoral degree in a science field and would benefit from participation in a postdoctoral research fellowship? And how much of that money would have to go to a special research group to determine if Staff Sergeant Neurosurgeon got a fair shot at a grant?

So, as per the norm, one of the few actually useful bills in recent memory is cut down at the knees by idiots from BOTH sides. The GOP was on board at the beginning from what I gather, but once it started getting all parsed out, they took the stance that it was going to end up wasteful spending and vetoed it on their platform of decreased expenditures.
 
2010-05-19 11:38:58 PM  
FTFA: Going down to defeat was the COMPETES Act, which would have committed more than $40 billion over three years to boost funding for the National Science Foundation and other federal agencies involved in basic and applied science, provided loan guarantees to small businesses developing new technologies and promoted science and math education.

Why does this surprise anyone? Republicans don't want to spend money on anything that won't put money directly back into their pockets. This kind of bill would benefit way too many non-big-corporate entities in the near-term, so it is of no use to them.
 
2010-05-19 11:39:33 PM  
J. Boone Pickens: We're fighting over deck chairs on the Titanic.

And you can bet that when the music finally stops, we will murder each other to secure ourselves a seat.

America: The nation of Fark you, it's MINE!
 
2010-05-19 11:39:39 PM  
Zamboro: Yes. I'm not willing to take it on faith. Not when a number of the examples he's given so far were actually developed with public funds.

You seem to be following a line of logic solely based on your faith in...something. Private sector gets public funding. Doesn't make it a federal institution. Richard Branson gets public funding for his orbiter. Doesn't make it a government project.
 
2010-05-19 11:40:04 PM  
Tourney3p0: Science hasn't moved forward in well over 30 years. We're basically living in an age of stagnant science and absolutely no forward progress in the last 50 years or so.

LOL WUT?

Human Genome Project.
Genetic Engineering.
The Freakin Internet.
Computers more power than EINAC that fit in the palm of your hand.
The list goes on and on.

Don't buy the BS that science does nothing.
 
2010-05-19 11:40:07 PM  
Wololo: Mentat: You are familiar with the Republican Party, aren't you?

Yes, of course. But I really didn't think they were stupid enough to pull something like this so close to elections. What did they think they were gaining from this? Voter sympathy?


If you want to enjoy your time on Fark, you have to give up any notions other than the following:

- despite funding the living fark out of science, Republicans hate science, which everyone knows because they oppose some science-related funding bills, even if the reasons they oppose them are unrelated.

- Democrats love science and jobs. They do not oppose Republican efforts to improve science or jobs, and they never have. Only Republicans play political games that fark the country over. Democrats don't.

- Conservatives are all hypocritical racist hyperfundamentalist Christian redneck science haters who think alike. If we could kill them all the country would be much better off.

Now, as farked up as conservatives can be, and as dumb as the GOP acts, it's pretty apparent from my 40+ years of observation that there are more than enough farked up liberals and a long enough track record of Democrats farking the country over to understand that most of these Farkers are little more than hypocritical douchebags with the amazing ability to justify and rationalize anything to themselves primarily on the basis of utter bullshiat like "Republicans hate science!"

I mean for fark's sake, look at what these people say. When someone here post images of inquisition or the dark ages and claims the Republicans won't stop until we return to those days, they're not saying it for effect, they're not exaggerating. Most of these people actually believe this shiat. In many respects they do not believe conservatives are "real" people, and once they've convinced themselves of that they can justify saying and doing anything. It's a frightening derangement.

I don't care who you are or what your political beliefs may be. People like this *are* the problem in this country, and are no different than any other kind of bigot.
 
2010-05-19 11:40:20 PM  
Merkin For The Weekend: Noam Chimpsky: How much would the observations and experiments of Newton, Darwin or Einstein cost today in US dollars?

I'm not sure if that is an entirely valid point. The thing is that those observations and experiments have already been done, and we have since moved forward and built on them. We have shown some of their points to be correct, some to be incorrect, and many to be far more complicated than they imagined. Basically, most if not all of the easy, cheap science has been done, but we can't stop there if we want to get it right. We need to trudge on through the expensive, fiddly, difficult stuff in order to learn, grow, and prosper as a species.


If the easy science is all you want, his position is valid.
The big stuff is getting into some shiat that some people don't want to be true.
 
2010-05-19 11:41:01 PM  
MiddleyMcCentrist: Nocens: The private sector is where new science is achieved.

Unequivocal horseshiat.

/the private sector is where public sector & academia developments go to be marketed for consumer purposes
//it has its use... but it ain't to make stuff that we *need*
///private sector = makes stuff that we *want*



There we go, I knew I'd fish one out. You do realize you just shiat on everyone in this thread trying to support this as good for the country and economy right?

What you just said pretty much explains why this is whole thread is bullshiat.

If we don't "want" it, it won't produce self sustaining jobs nor contribute to the paying off that debt load. All you've done is added more debt to pay for jobs which produce no marketable products and does not help the current situation the country is in, it only exacerbates it.

But hey, you provided the definitions there, Blondie, not me. Good job.
 
2010-05-19 11:41:27 PM  
meat0918:
LOL WUT?

Human Genome Project.
Genetic Engineering.
The Freakin Internet.
Computers more power than EINAC that fit in the palm of your hand.
The list goes on and on.


All publicly funded. There has been literally no forward progress in science in the private sector in at least 50, maybe even 125 years.
 
2010-05-19 11:42:08 PM  
If we're broke like the Republicans say, then we shouldn't have an issue cutting the military's budget in half. Of course, we do that, and they'll start screeching about how the non-whites are coming for their worthless shiat.
 
2010-05-19 11:42:28 PM  
Tourney3p0: Science hasn't moved forward in well over 30 years. We're basically living in an age of stagnant science and absolutely no forward progress in the last 50 years or so.

img223.imageshack.us

HA! Happy fishin!
 
2010-05-19 11:42:35 PM  
F*** you republic**ts
 
2010-05-19 11:42:36 PM  
I still find it ironic that there is a debate about the good of publicly funded research happening on the internet.
 
2010-05-19 11:42:45 PM  
Nocens: The private sector is where new science is achieved.

Um, Lawrence Livermore Labs, Los Alamos, Fermilab and a few other places might disagree with you on this.

And those socialist commie pinkos over in Europe have this little thing called CERN.
 
2010-05-19 11:43:02 PM  
Wow, is there any talking point a Democrat won't buy?

First, less taxing/spending in general gives corporations more funding for Research/Development, or as the dopes who wrote this article simplistically call it, "SCIENCE."

Second, the Dems could have approved the bill and fired the researched who were jacking off at work and hire new researchers who wouldn't have to purchase new keyboards so often.
 
2010-05-19 11:43:36 PM  
Zamboro: Nocens: "Do you understand what a telephone is? Do you understand what a cotton gin is? Do you understand what a computer is? Do you understand what pasteurization is?"

I understand what a computer is. I also understand that the development of the first (digital) computer was publicly funded.


Also, Louis Pasteur was a college professor, working in the ivory halls of government funded academia when he made many if not all of his important discoveries.

The Telephone is not a particularly good example for either side of this debate because of the amount of controversy surrounding how it was created and by whom.

Yes, Whitney invented the cotton gin without subsidy, but the popularization of interchangeable parts, for which he is arguably more important, came through a government contract.
 
2010-05-19 11:44:22 PM  
Tourney3p0: meat0918:
LOL WUT?

Human Genome Project.
Genetic Engineering.
The Freakin Internet.
Computers more power than EINAC that fit in the palm of your hand.
The list goes on and on.

All publicly funded. There has been literally no forward progress in science in the private sector in at least 50, maybe even 125 years.


Might disagree on Genetic Engineering, considering biotech's investment in GE for both crops and pharmaceutical research.
 
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