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(comic book resources)   Move over, Deadpool. Take a hike, The Goddamn Batman. Here comes the Atheist Justice League   (robot6.comicbookresources.com) divider line 102
    More: Interesting, the Goddamn Batman, new atheists, afterlife, Christopher Hitchens, Atheist Justice League, Catholic Mass, bonus points, unicorns  
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5551 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 May 2010 at 10:32 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-05-18 09:04:52 AM
This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.
 
2010-05-18 09:54:48 AM
The Icelander: This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.

Seriously. "Atheism" as a rational concept really doesn't apply when Thor is on the nightly news defending Los Angeles from alien invasion.
 
2010-05-18 10:38:02 AM
FTA
S.H.O.O.T. are basically militant atheists, tasked with hunting down supernatural creatures, especially those of religious significance, that they don't even believe in....

Fighting something you don't believe in? Don't we normally call that "swatting at hallucinations"? Kind of like deer hunters not "believing" deer exist, but shoots them anyway.
 
2010-05-18 10:38:29 AM
The Icelander: This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.

Which raises an interesting point: if Thor, the God of Thunder, is real and wandering around New York saving the world on a routine basis:

Where are his worshippers? The people in Marvel Universe have bona-fide evidence that Norse mythology is the literal truth. Meanwhile, the only evidence of Christian mythos in Marvel is the occasional appearance of demons.

Same applies to Hercules.
 
Ant
2010-05-18 10:38:45 AM
Worst idea ever.
 
2010-05-18 10:40:23 AM
I thought we already had that.
i224.photobucket.com
 
2010-05-18 10:40:38 AM
Secular Humanism is not necessarily Atheist and vice-versa. There is certainly a high correlation between the two but they are not the same thing.

Same goes for Atheism and belief in supernatural creatures (with the exception of supernatural creatures considered 'gods' anyway). You can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts and vampires and stuff.
=Smidge=
 
2010-05-18 10:42:02 AM
GilRuiz1: I thought we already had that.

Wasn't there a Larry Niven story by that title?
 
2010-05-18 10:43:14 AM
This: The Icelander: This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.

Which raises an interesting point: if Thor, the God of Thunder, is real and wandering around New York saving the world on a routine basis:

Where are his worshippers? The people in Marvel Universe have bona-fide evidence that Norse mythology is the literal truth. Meanwhile, the only evidence of Christian mythos in Marvel is the occasional appearance of demons.

Same applies to Hercules.


Exactly. Hell... if Superman were real, there would be people crazy enough to worship him...
 
2010-05-18 10:44:15 AM
Ant: Worst idea ever.

Technically not the worst, but close to SugarLad's Adventures in Water Land.
 
2010-05-18 10:44:26 AM
SphericalTime: The Icelander: This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.

Seriously. "Atheism" as a rational concept really doesn't apply when Thor is on the nightly news defending Los Angeles from alien invasion.


This.
 
2010-05-18 10:47:57 AM
If the entities claiming supernatural origin in these comic universes do actually interact with reality, then they have measurable properties and can be examined scientifically.

Thor says he's a god, but what are gods in the Marvel universe beyond powerful other-dimensional beings? They don't seem to be omnipotent or any other omni-, so what's the difference between them and aliens or other beings? DC's Mytzlplk is relatively omnipotent, comes from a higher dimension, but isn't a god.

Thor would seem to be evidence of the Norse pantheon's reality, but we have only his word for it. He could just be a powerful being claiming deity status a la Stargate.
 
2010-05-18 10:50:38 AM
syberpud: FTA
S.H.O.O.T. are basically militant atheists, tasked with hunting down supernatural creatures, especially those of religious significance, that they don't even believe in....

Fighting something you don't believe in? Don't we normally call that "swatting at hallucinations"? Kind of like deer hunters not "believing" deer exist, but shoots them anyway.



I don't think it's a matter of believing in it at that point, it's a matter of believing that these supernatuaral beings have any right to meddle in our affairs.

Just because some god-like being is storming around with all the powers of a God doesn't mean he should be worshipped or even respected.

If Thor came tearing through my living room with his hammer swinging, smashing up all my stuff, I wouldn't bow down & admire him as a God; I'd ask him who the f*ck he thinks he is? what gives him the right? and would he please get the f*ck out?

Thor being in my living room crushing my coffee table is proof that Thor exists, sure, but it doesn't prove that I should believe in him as a deity worthy of my servitude.
 
Ant
2010-05-18 10:55:45 AM
Smidge204: You can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts and vampires and stuff.

Yeah, you can still be an atheist, albeit a retarded one.
 
2010-05-18 10:57:00 AM
Sigh. Anti-paranormal != Atheist.

SphericalTime: "Atheism" as a rational concept really doesn't apply when Thor is on the nightly news defending Los Angeles from alien invasion.

Eh. You can still address whether or not he's a "God".

This: Which raises an interesting point

...mentioned in TFA: It's always seemed to me that the presence of Thor and Hercules and Mephisto and so on in the Marvel Universe, or the Spectre and the Demon and Zauriel and so forth in the DC Universe, ought to have altered the social fabric of those worlds in far more fundamental ways -- ways their respective creators really couldn't get away with depicting, lest they lose the "real world plus superpowers" feel that fans are accustomed to. Would each different deity inspire a new religion? Would the world's major faiths adapt to incorporate such entities, fight against them, or ignore them entirely? Would atheists write them off as simply a different form of perfectly natural life, or abandon their Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens books en masse?

This: Meanwhile, the only evidence of Christian mythos in Marvel is the occasional appearance of demons.

Incorrect. The Angel Zauriel hung out with the Justice League for a while; Superman went toe to toe with the angel Asmodel during that period. The Phantom Stranger may also be an angel (although he's ambiguous).

But the Spectre is the effing Archangel Raguel, to whom is entrusted the Wrath Of God.
 
2010-05-18 10:58:19 AM
Gosh, someone misunderstanding just what the fark an atheist is? Whooda thunk!
 
F42
2010-05-18 10:58:29 AM
every time you read a comic about someone fighting the supernatural, they're really doing it on the supernatural's own terms. If you're fighting a vampire, you bring stakes and holy water - that kind of thing. I don't think there's ever been a team like "S.H.O.O.T." that basically thinks it's all bunk, and just goes after any threat with science and bullets, and scientific bullets.

Well, did White Wolf ever do a comic featuring the Technocracy?

I think they mostly did the werewolves in comics... so, ok, maybe he's right.
 
F42
2010-05-18 11:01:54 AM
Farkshower1972: if Superman were real, there would be people crazy enough to worship him.

If you fell out of a Metropolis skyscraper, you could pray for divine intervention, or scream HELP! SUPERMAN, HELP!

Which would you choose?
 
2010-05-18 11:04:42 AM
abb3w: ..mentioned in TFA:

You must be new here.

Either way, I was talking about Marvel. Dunno the cosmology of the DC universe.
 
2010-05-18 11:06:41 AM
abb3w: But the Spectre is the effing Archangel Raguel, to whom is entrusted the Wrath Spaghetti sauce Of God.
 
2010-05-18 11:07:23 AM
This shiat sucks.
 
2010-05-18 11:08:19 AM
schattenteufel: If Thor came tearing through my living room with his hammer swinging, smashing up all my stuff, I wouldn't bow down & admire him as a God; I'd ask him who the f*ck he thinks he is? what gives him the right? and would he please get the f*ck out?

Alright, now it makes sense
 
2010-05-18 11:09:28 AM
This: Wasn't there a Larry Niven story by that title?

"Last Days of the Permanent Floating Riot Club"; Niven's story was inspiration for the nickname.
 
2010-05-18 11:13:21 AM
the Secular Humanist Occult Obliteration Taskforce. seriously?

yah, that sounds epic, comic book people. Worst. Taskforce. Ever.
 
2010-05-18 11:22:06 AM
PirateKing: If the entities claiming supernatural origin in these comic universes do actually interact with reality, then they have measurable properties and can be examined scientifically.

Thor says he's a god, but what are gods in the Marvel universe beyond powerful other-dimensional beings? They don't seem to be omnipotent or any other omni-, so what's the difference between them and aliens or other beings? DC's Mytzlplk is relatively omnipotent, comes from a higher dimension, but isn't a god.

Thor would seem to be evidence of the Norse pantheon's reality, but we have only his word for it. He could just be a powerful being claiming deity status a la Stargate.


I think this is exactly how Mr. Terrific justifies his atheism in the DCU.
 
2010-05-18 11:25:54 AM
hockeyfarker: the Secular Humanist Occult Obliteration Taskforce. seriously?

yah, that sounds epic, comic book people. Worst. Taskforce. Ever.


Still not the worst acronym I've seen today.
 
2010-05-18 11:28:35 AM
abb3w: Incorrect. The Angel Zauriel hung out with the Justice League for a while; Superman went toe to toe with the angel Asmodel during that period. The Phantom Stranger may also be an angel (although he's ambiguous).

But the Spectre is the effing Archangel Raguel, to whom is entrusted the Wrath Of God.


Plus Lucifer exists in DC and had his own, quite good, book. DC handles this in a generally interesting way, allowing there to be a Christian God in their multiverse but not throwing in divine intervention[1] or allowing for a guaranteed afterlife which sort of takes the sting out of character deaths or the panic of a giant eye floating over your city. Sure, we've seen characters in Hell before Lucifer shut it down in Sandman, but Blackest Night was essentially a giant Memento Mori for every DC character.

[1] OK, Zauriel took a host of angels to fight... was it Solaris? in Morrison's JLA run, but that was Zauriel's idea, methinks. Especially since Nekron was in the process of killing the personification of all of DC's reality at the end of Blackest Night, and I didn't see any angels showing up then.

Sure, it doesn't *mean* anything: it's a comic book. But it's interesting to see how superheroes and aliens and cosmic threats and literal angels and fists-of-God walking around are reconciled with "normal" Earth religion.

On the Marvel side, hasn't God, or The One Beyond or whatever he's called there, turned up in an appearance or two? Don't know why I think that is sort of *silly* when I think that angels fighting alongside a caped Kryptonian is farking cool.
 
2010-05-18 11:29:03 AM
The Icelander: This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.

Ant: Smidge204: You can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts and vampires and stuff.

Yeah, you can still be an atheist, albeit a retarded one.


Unless of course you had proof that they were not gods, just extra-dimensional assholes who like to fark with humans. Sure they have super powers, but they are not gods. So yeas you could be an atheist, even in the presence of "gods". I also think the appropriate response is to bring the full power of the law against those criminal illegal aliens. Unless S.H.O.O.T. is a government agency enforcing the laws of the land then they are also criminal assholes who need to be incarcerated.

Just because a vampire shows up in New York does not necessarily give you the right to kill the farker. On the other hand if you see him suck down a meat juice box then be my guest burn that son of biatch, because I doubt you could arrest him.
 
2010-05-18 11:31:15 AM
The Icelander: This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.

THIS!

Methinks the authors aren't atheists but rather people trying to earn a buck off of atheists. They're not helping.
 
2010-05-18 11:44:57 AM
Alternately, there's Dorfl from Discworld - Dorfl is a clay golem, and thus is not electrically conductive. This allows him to be the only Atheist in a world where gods really do exist - he doesn't consider a thunderbolt to the head to be much of an argument.
 
2010-05-18 11:52:45 AM
abb3w: This: Meanwhile, the only evidence of Christian mythos in Marvel is the occasional appearance of demons.

Incorrect. The Angel Zauriel hung out with the Justice League for a while; Superman went toe to toe with the angel Asmodel during that period. The Phantom Stranger may also be an angel (although he's ambiguous).

But the Spectre is the effing Archangel Raguel, to whom is entrusted the Wrath Of God.


Those are DC. not Marvel.

Marvel actually has dealt, on occasion, with the question of their gods being worshiped. It shames me that I know this, but the Thorites were a major social force in the Marvel 2099 line, founding hospitals, preaching on street corners (sometimes preaching from hang gliders), experiencing the conflicts between fundie nutjob Thorites and reasonable non-nutjob Thorites, etc.
 
2010-05-18 11:56:40 AM
southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com
 
2010-05-18 11:58:11 AM
TFA: every time you read a comic about someone fighting the supernatural, they're really doing it on the supernatural's own terms. If you're fighting a vampire, you bring stakes and holy water - that kind of thing. I don't think there's ever been a team like "S.H.O.O.T." that basically thinks it's all bunk, and just goes after any threat with science and bullets, and scientific bullets.

This is my problem with the concept (otherwise it sounds like it might be an amusing comic book). You deal with the supernatural on its terms because that's what works. Shoot Dracula with a 9mm, and he'll just pause a moment to smirk in a very Euro-nobility fashion before draining your blood.
 
2010-05-18 12:15:21 PM
Someone who believes in god(s) and hates them is not an atheist, but a misotheist. (new window)

/ The more you know
// Not sure what the analogous term is for sub-deity-level supernatural threats.
/// I guess I'll just go with "Ghostbuster." Of course, Gozer was a god, so....
 
2010-05-18 12:17:40 PM
Son of Thunder: TFA: every time you read a comic about someone fighting the supernatural, they're really doing it on the supernatural's own terms. If you're fighting a vampire, you bring stakes and holy water - that kind of thing. I don't think there's ever been a team like "S.H.O.O.T." that basically thinks it's all bunk, and just goes after any threat with science and bullets, and scientific bullets.

This is my problem with the concept (otherwise it sounds like it might be an amusing comic book). You deal with the supernatural on its terms because that's what works. Shoot Dracula with a 9mm, and he'll just pause a moment to smirk in a very Euro-nobility fashion before draining your blood.


well dracula sure.

But Voldemort, for example... I'm pretty sure a 9mm could have settled his hash.
 
2010-05-18 12:22:37 PM
Not tooting my own horn or anything but I have had ideas similar to this before. Belief can create and sustain and it goes both ways. If you believe that the devil exist and can harm you, the devil can exist and can harm you. So what happens when you don't believe in something? My idea is a bit more nuanced then that but it's the basic gist of it.
 
2010-05-18 12:24:44 PM
PJ_the_Barbarian: But Voldemort, for example... I'm pretty sure a 9mm could have settled his hash.

Agreed.

"I, Lord Voldemort, have searched for years to find the ultimate wand, with which I can defeat Harry Potter. What's this? A muggle approaches me? I will wipe my nostril-slits with this muggle's flayed skin. What's your name, foolish muggle?"
"Castle. Frank Castle."
 
2010-05-18 12:27:37 PM
Now that was a funny read... and the bunched-up panties in here only makes it funnier.
 
2010-05-18 12:29:14 PM
Son of Thunder: "I, Lord Voldemort, have searched for years to find the ultimate wand, with which I can defeat Harry Potter. What's this? A muggle approaches me? I will wipe my nostril-slits with this muggle's flayed skin. What's your name, foolish muggle?"
"Castle. Frank Castle."


I imagine the finals panes of that comic would have a short shot of the battered, broken and bullet ridden corpse with the frozen in death face of Voldemort in plain view. Just behind in the distance you see Frank's feet. The next few panes show him starting to walk away then.. a pause. He walks back over to the corpse still only feet in view... then all we see are his hands snapping the neck and then again feet walking away.
 
2010-05-18 12:30:23 PM
PJ_the_Barbarian: But Voldemort, for example... I'm pretty sure a 9mm could have settled his hash.

Sluggy did it. In the Torg Potter satires, Torg chased off Lord Moldypants and the Death Eaters with a shotgun.
 
2010-05-18 12:30:53 PM
Slaves2Darkness: Unless of course you had proof that they were not gods, just extra-dimensional assholes who like to fark with humans.

Then you get the joy of a debate over what exactly constitutes a "god" as you just seemed to define the Christian god...at least the OT version.
 
2010-05-18 12:37:26 PM
So S.H.O.O.T. is basically constable Dorfl, but without the wit, charm, and clay.
 
2010-05-18 12:39:07 PM
IdBeCrazyIf: Son of Thunder: "I, Lord Voldemort, have searched for years to find the ultimate wand, with which I can defeat Harry Potter. What's this? A muggle approaches me? I will wipe my nostril-slits with this muggle's flayed skin. What's your name, foolish muggle?"
"Castle. Frank Castle."

I imagine the finals panes of that comic would have a short shot of the battered, broken and bullet ridden corpse with the frozen in death face of Voldemort in plain view. Just behind in the distance you see Frank's feet. The next few panes show him starting to walk away then.. a pause. He walks back over to the corpse still only feet in view... then all we see are his hands snapping the neck and then again feet walking away.


What is this, a fanfic of Frank Miller's Harry Potter?

That might actually be pretty cool...
 
2010-05-18 12:39:51 PM
HeartBurnKid: PirateKing: If the entities claiming supernatural origin in these comic universes do actually interact with reality, then they have measurable properties and can be examined scientifically.

Thor says he's a god, but what are gods in the Marvel universe beyond powerful other-dimensional beings? They don't seem to be omnipotent or any other omni-, so what's the difference between them and aliens or other beings? DC's Mytzlplk is relatively omnipotent, comes from a higher dimension, but isn't a god.

Thor would seem to be evidence of the Norse pantheon's reality, but we have only his word for it. He could just be a powerful being claiming deity status a la Stargate.

I think this is exactly how Mr. Terrific justifies his atheism in the DCU.


It's also how I justify my hard agnosticism (i.e. "the concept of God makes no sense") in real life.

If my shrubs caught fire and started issuing commandments, I'd assume I was hallucinating or being gaslighted.

Ditto if a booming voice from the heavens told me to stop masturbating.

That's a lot more likely than assuming those events were caused by an omniscient, omnipotent, onmibenevolent being that allows suffering.
 
2010-05-18 12:59:55 PM
Gaseous Anomaly: Ditto if a booming voice from the heavens told me to stop masturbating.

Kent?

//mmmm popcorn.
 
2010-05-18 01:06:45 PM
abb3w: Eh. You can still address whether or not he's a "God".

He conforms to the specifications of his mythology, he's a god. He's not a God, capital G, but then Christians don't have the monopoly on deities.

So, if I lived in the marvel universe, I couldn't call myself an atheist. I'd believe in the existence of Thor, who conforms to the definition of God.

It would probably be much harder to be a Christian in the Marvel universe. I wouldn't have to be a Thor worshiper to pointedly ask Christians which superhero squad Jesus Christ belongs to. Or ask why he never makes the national news for being a "savior."
 
2010-05-18 01:16:20 PM
PJ_the_Barbarian: Voldemort, for example... I'm pretty sure a 9mm could have settled his hash.

img.photobucket.com
 
2010-05-18 01:24:07 PM
SphericalTime: The Icelander: This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.

Seriously. "Atheism" as a rational concept really doesn't apply when Thor is on the nightly news defending Los Angeles from alien invasion.



These. Atheists don't believe that gods and assorted supernatural hokum are real. If they openly had turf wars out in the middle of population centers with tons of property damage believing in their existence would be kind of a given for any rational person.

Now that doesn't mean you would need to be a worshiper, worshiping them is another matter entirely. But believing in them would be a no brainer when one crushes your new car in the street out front of your house.

It seems to me like this comic is either fundamentally flawed conceptually or it's being described incorrectly. Maybe if they just dropped the A-word and used secular humanist instead or something. Emphasized the rejection of teh supernatural rather than disbelief in it. Otherwise they're not going to be too long-lived as the first slavering demon they run across will kill them all when they refuse to believe it exists as it devours them.
 
2010-05-18 01:37:08 PM
mongbiohazard: SphericalTime: The Icelander: This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.

Seriously. "Atheism" as a rational concept really doesn't apply when Thor is on the nightly news defending Los Angeles from alien invasion.


These. Atheists don't believe that gods and assorted supernatural hokum are real. If they openly had turf wars out in the middle of population centers with tons of property damage believing in their existence would be kind of a given for any rational person.

Now that doesn't mean you would need to be a worshiper, worshiping them is another matter entirely. But believing in them would be a no brainer when one crushes your new car in the street out front of your house.

It seems to me like this comic is either fundamentally flawed conceptually or it's being described incorrectly. Maybe if they just dropped the A-word and used secular humanist instead or something. Emphasized the rejection of teh supernatural rather than disbelief in it. Otherwise they're not going to be too long-lived as the first slavering demon they run across will kill them all when they refuse to believe it exists as it devours them.


They could always take the "Mr. Terrific" approach -- i.e. they're not really "gods" and "demons" so much as ultra-powerful alien/extra-dimensional beings that were worshiped by mankind as gods.
 
2010-05-18 01:41:50 PM
Sick and Tired of Being Sick and Tired: The Icelander: This is retarded. If we could see angels or demons or god we'd believe in them. Because there'd be evidence.

THIS!

Methinks the authors aren't atheists but rather people trying to earn a buck off of atheists. They're not helping.


Angels: Humans with wings.
Demons: beings of energy.
God(s): Beings from a higher dimension.

No reason to stop being an atheist.

Son of Thunder: This is my problem with the concept (otherwise it sounds like it might be an amusing comic book). You deal with the supernatural on its terms because that's what works. Shoot Dracula with a 9mm, and he'll just pause a moment to smirk in a very Euro-nobility fashion before draining your blood.

I think the point of this is that they don't believe Dracula is a vampire. They don't believe in supernatural so they'll just napalm him instead of trying to find a stake, garlic, and cross. And guess what? It will work.
 
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