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(The New York Times)   Feminists object to decision of Fark's favorite state to satisfy Title IX by certifying competitive cheerleading and flag football as varsity-level high-school sports for girls   (nytimes.com) divider line 49
    More: Florida, high school sports, Title IX, flag football  
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625 clicks; posted to Sports » on 16 May 2010 at 1:26 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-05-16 01:33:25 PM
Can't bureaucrats just be happy that kids want to get outside and engage in some physical activity? The kids don't care about the laws or legality. They want to play, and have fun, and be healthy.
 
2010-05-16 01:33:32 PM
'No professional outlet' is a very weak argument. The vast majority of athletes have no intention of turning pro. If you offer a compelling, widely accessible activity, participants will drive the competition to an elite level.
 
2010-05-16 01:34:07 PM
They're complaining about sports that don't have a future beyond the high school level? What about all of the sports that offer women's and men's athletes a virtually impossible chance at a future beyond the collegiate level? Should those be discounted too?
 
2010-05-16 01:40:25 PM
Dear Jerk: 'No professional outlet' is a very weak argument. The vast majority of athletes have no intention of turning pro. If you offer a compelling, widely accessible activity, participants will drive the competition to an elite level.

Agreed. Also, no one is forcing the girls to play flag football, are they? They can play soccer if they want. I suppose the only people who would be upset are girls who want to play tackle football, but how many of them are there?

As for competitive cheerleading, hell yes modern cheerleading at top levels is a sport. It requires serious gymnastics skills now.
 
2010-05-16 01:41:16 PM
I'd give the Title IX people more credit if they also complained and filed all sorts of law suits about the lack of men in fields like nursing and elementary education. But they aren't looking for equality, they are looking for revenge.

Title IX was a well intended law that has had disasterous consequences for men's Olympic sports like Wrestling, Gymnastics, and Swimming.
 
2010-05-16 01:41:35 PM
By that logic shouldn't colleges cut all liberal art majors?

Or any women's sports?
 
2010-05-16 01:44:36 PM
I had to read that headline like 3 times
 
2010-05-16 01:53:00 PM
Thoguh: I'd give the Title IX people more credit if they also complained and filed all sorts of law suits about the lack of men in fields like nursing and elementary education. But they aren't looking for equality, they are looking for revenge.

Title IX was a well intended law that has had disasterous consequences for men's Olympic sports like Wrestling, Gymnastics, and Swimming.


You can also include track and field in there.

My alma mater (University of Kansas) was actually sued last year by an alum of the men's swim team (Ron Neugent, who would have competed in the Moscow Olympics) because of a potential Title IX violation. The gender balance of the overall student body is virtually 50-50, but about 55% of the athletic opportunities are provided to women. So naturally, the school wants to show that they are actually offering proportional opportunities rather than add another men's sport or increase the scholarships offered in a couple current sports.

I'm all for women getting more opportunities than they've had in the past, but those opportunities have come almost entirely from opportunities being taken away from men. That's as unfair as women's opportunities being taken away from them because men want more. People who campaign for more women's sports when they're underrepresented and then turn the other way when men are underrepresented are hypocrites.
 
2010-05-16 01:53:32 PM
i used to not respect cheerleading until i started treating a lot of cheerleaders. those are some really tough girls and they do some amazingly athletic things.
 
2010-05-16 01:53:55 PM
logictwisted: By that logic shouldn't colleges cut all liberal art majors?

Or any women's sports?


Are you seriously trying to apply logic to today's feminists? You should know better.
 
2010-05-16 01:54:02 PM
Is flag vs tackle football any worse than girls vs guys Lacrosse? Honestly, I think giving girls an outlet to play football is certainly better than a lot of other cheap excuses for satisfying title IX...
 
2010-05-16 02:05:28 PM
animesucks: i used to not respect cheerleading until i started treating a lot of cheerleaders. those are some really tough girls and they do some amazingly athletic things.

I agree with all that, but I still have a hard time considering something where everybody is doing a different routine separately and the judges are taking artistic aspects into account and trying to balance difficulty and execution a sport.
 
2010-05-16 02:09:20 PM
Longtime Lurker: Honestly, I think giving girls an outlet to play football is certainly better than a lot of other cheap excuses for satisfying title IX...

Are there girls who enjoy playing the sport? Do they get girls to come out and play? Then who gives a flying fark whether or not there are scholarship opportunities in college? High school athletics should not be considered a mere springboard to college athletics, especially since most high school athletes won't play their sport in college (kind of like how most college athletes go pro in something other than sports).
 
2010-05-16 02:14:32 PM
12349876: animesucks: i used to not respect cheerleading until i started treating a lot of cheerleaders. those are some really tough girls and they do some amazingly athletic things.

I agree with all that, but I still have a hard time considering something where everybody is doing a different routine separately and the judges are taking artistic aspects into account and trying to balance difficulty and execution a sport.


I agree, but that goes for a lot of "sports"
 
2010-05-16 02:50:54 PM
Looked to me like it was one feminist complaining and the rest of the women saying that they liked flag football and that one broad can fark off.

I never cared about Title IX since I was all music all the time in HS... UNTIL I went to college and they cut the men's soccer team because of Title IX. I was pissed. College soccer guys? Ohlordy, nothin hotter. Ahem. Anyway. It seemed to me that most of our female athletes were happy playing tennis, basketball, & softball. They couldn't garner enough interest for another women's athletic program, so they cut men's soccer. Dumb.

But I do have to wonder: Across town, the other university is a "Woman's" university. Do they have to offer an equal number of men's athletic programs? They're only about 10% of the student population.
 
2010-05-16 03:04:34 PM
Is there a women's sport where there IS an opportunity to go professional in a significant sense?

They can't all play beach volleyball or golf.

/and if they're going to a public HS, they're not going to be professional tennis players.
//the WNBA is gone as soon as the NBA is taken over by someone who cares about money more than proving a point
 
2010-05-16 03:07:41 PM
IAmRight: Is there a women's sport where there IS an opportunity to go professional in a significant sense?

They can't all play beach volleyball or golf.

/and if they're going to a public HS, they're not going to be professional tennis players.
//the WNBA is gone as soon as the NBA is taken over by someone who cares about money more than proving a point


Women's basketball in Europe
 
2010-05-16 03:14:18 PM
It sure beats cutting men's programs in order to get more in line.
 
2010-05-16 03:16:58 PM
If cheerleading is a sport then so is marching band.
 
2010-05-16 03:30:54 PM
I think that the feminist is mad that the gains didn't come at the expense of men's sports and opportunities.
Their desires have nothing to do with equality.
 
2010-05-16 03:37:04 PM
Here in Alberta we've seen growth in women's rugby. It provides opportunities for athletes of all body types, a diffrent type of sporting experience, and post secondary opportunities. The high school programs where in the area where I live run between 30 and 60 participants. More high school girls in our area play high school rugby than high school basketall or high school volleyball which can only accomodate about 24 athletes each.


UofL Rugby (new window)
 
2010-05-16 03:46:16 PM
Thoguh: I'd give the Title IX people more credit if they also complained and filed all sorts of law suits about the lack of men in fields like nursing and elementary education. But they aren't looking for equality, they are looking for revenge.

Title IX was a well intended law that has had disasterous consequences for men's Olympic sports like Wrestling, Gymnastics, and Swimming.


While I agree with the spirit of your argument, I think the intent of Title IX was to fix an access problem that academic fields don't necessarily have. The lack of men in nursing and elementary education is like the lack of women in engineering. They could participate if they wanted to, but very few want to.
 
2010-05-16 03:50:04 PM
has it ever occurred that men are more athletic than women and therefore might be more inclined to play sports, and that gender quotas fly in the face of some basic biology?
 
2010-05-16 03:50:58 PM
IAmRight: Is there a women's sport where there IS an opportunity to go professional in a significant sense?

They can't all play beach volleyball or golf.

/and if they're going to a public HS, they're not going to be professional tennis players.
//the WNBA is gone as soon as the NBA is taken over by someone who cares about money more than proving a point


Tennis (but I agree with your general point)
 
2010-05-16 03:59:08 PM
The Icelander: If cheerleading is a sport then so is marching band.

Cheerleading is not only a sport, it is the most dangerous sport with the highest injury rate.
 
2010-05-16 03:59:17 PM
Bill Frist: IAmRight: Is there a women's sport where there IS an opportunity to go professional in a significant sense?

They can't all play beach volleyball or golf.

/and if they're going to a public HS, they're not going to be professional tennis players.
//the WNBA is gone as soon as the NBA is taken over by someone who cares about money more than proving a point

Tennis (but I agree with your general point)


Tennis is the only sport where I prefer watching the women based solely on the play and not the fact some of them are hot.
 
2010-05-16 04:02:08 PM
T-Boy: The Icelander: If cheerleading is a sport then so is marching band.

Cheerleading is not only a sport, it is the most dangerous sport with the highest injury rate.


Not to pick nits, but that doesn't make it a sport.
 
2010-05-16 04:06:26 PM
IAmRight [TotalFark] Quote 2010-05-16 03:04:34 PM
Is there a women's sport where there IS an opportunity to go professional in a significant sense?

They can't all play beach volleyball or golf.

/and if they're going to a public HS, they're not going to be professional tennis players.
//the WNBA is gone as soon as the NBA is taken over by someone who cares about money more than proving a point


---David Stern proved one thing with the WNBA, hardly anyone gives a shiat about professional women's basketball. He can keep pumping money into it all he wants and it's still not going to be popular. It's nice, PC and feel goody that it exists, but he just needs to fold that thing and move on. His pride won't let him do that though, no matter how much of a money sink it is.
 
2010-05-16 04:08:20 PM
SharkTrager:

Tennis is the only sport where I prefer watching the women based solely on the play and not the fact some of them are hot.


I take it you don't really enjoy tennis then? Because the women's game is decades behind the men's game, much sloppier (the number of unforced errors and double faults is drastically higher than the men's) and much more simplistic. Most women's players aren't that much beyond ball machine tennis.

In addition, for various reasons, the women players are not nearly as dedicated and far more likely to quit earlier in their careers or take time off, etc.
 
2010-05-16 04:09:51 PM
Bill Frist: Tennis (but I agree with your general point)

like I said, if they're in a public HS, they're probably not good enough to play pro tennis.
 
2010-05-16 04:22:37 PM
I could care less if the USC Song Girls could do ANYTHING. Best excuse for picture in picture ever.
 
2010-05-16 04:24:09 PM
The Madd Man: Thoguh: I'd give the Title IX people more credit if they also complained and filed all sorts of law suits about the lack of men in fields like nursing and elementary education. But they aren't looking for equality, they are looking for revenge.

Title IX was a well intended law that has had disasterous consequences for men's Olympic sports like Wrestling, Gymnastics, and Swimming.

While I agree with the spirit of your argument, I think the intent of Title IX was to fix an access problem that academic fields don't necessarily have. The lack of men in nursing and elementary education is like the lack of women in engineering. They could participate if they wanted to, but very few want to.


Title IX tried to include a caveat for that, saying that as long as you have satisfied the desire for women's sports you don't have to have an equal number of athletes. However, in practice this doesn't work because the colleges get sued.

Some stupid things about Title IX (as enforced)
-It counts number of athletes, not scholarships, so even though there are many more men willing to walk on and play, colleges can't allow them to because it would throw off their ratios. I went to a Big XII school and the practice squad for the women's basketball team was made up of guys who's only payment was free shoes. Even though we were a perenial top 25 team they couldn't get enough women to go out that didn't have a good shot at playing time.
-Even if a sport is entirely funded through an endowment and doesn't cost the university a cent, it still counts against them. More than once men's teams in minor sports have been told that in order to not get cut they not only have to raise enough to endow their own sport, but also one or two women's sports to offset their numbers.
-There is no comparable women's sport to football, but football is not exempted from Title IX numbers. The way some colleges try to counter this is to add a women's Crew team, as it is one of the few sports that can have a roster size to even start to offset football. But crew isn't big in high schools, so you have women who have never been in a shell getting full ride scholarship offers just to try to fill up the numbers.

Title IX is a great idea, but the enforcement is broken and decimating non-revenue producing men's sports.
 
2010-05-16 04:30:07 PM
one thing people always say is that sports that pay for themselves should be exempt. That seems like it would work. Really just exempting football would fix a lot of things.
 
2010-05-16 04:36:14 PM
Oh dear, here we go again with the "that's not a sport!" arguments. Everyone's definition is different. It's pointless. Back to the topic at hand.
 
2010-05-16 04:42:17 PM
Di Atribe: Oh dear, here we go again with the "that's not a sport!" arguments. Everyone's definition is different. It's pointless. Back to the topic at hand.

Link (new window)

After the 3 minute mark I think summarizes the better part of Farker's views on sport/activity debate.
 
2010-05-16 06:08:12 PM
Bill Frist: one thing people always say is that sports that pay for themselves should be exempt. That seems like it would work. Really just exempting football would fix a lot of things.

That would help. It's a shame that college athletics in general has to suffer. Remember that the entire point of the NCAA is not to be a professional athlete factory. Rather, it is to inculcate into the student body sportsmanship, a drive for excellence, competition, etc. Getting more students into track and field, or any of the non-revenue sports builds a healthy person for a lifetime.

Disbanding wrestling, baseball, various smaller sports defeats the spirit of college athletics.

UVa almost had to give up its baseball team a few years back. Now they are having fantastic seasons.
 
2010-05-16 06:23:17 PM
Bill Frist: SharkTrager:

Tennis is the only sport where I prefer watching the women based solely on the play and not the fact some of them are hot.

I take it you don't really enjoy tennis then? Because the women's game is decades behind the men's game, much sloppier (the number of unforced errors and double faults is drastically higher than the men's) and much more simplistic. Most women's players aren't that much beyond ball machine tennis.

In addition, for various reasons, the women players are not nearly as dedicated and far more likely to quit earlier in their careers or take time off, etc.


I'll take the sloppiness of the women's game over the "nobody can break the other's serve/lets trade 140mph aces/we should both stand on the baseline the whole match" style of the men's game.
 
2010-05-16 06:39:18 PM
baorao: I'll take the sloppiness of the women's game over the "nobody can break the other's serve/lets trade 140mph aces/we should both stand on the baseline the whole match" style of the men's game.

See this is the kind of thing that people say who don't really watch tennis. You really feel this way watching Federer or Djokvoic or Murray play? The best mens players are not dominating through aces or pure baseline play, these dudes have a lot of finesse and strategy.

On the flipside, the Williams dominate the women's game in large part because they overpower the competition.
 
2010-05-16 06:45:21 PM
Bill Frist

See this is the kind of thing that people say who don't really watch tennis. You really feel this way watching Federer or Djokvoic or Murray play? The best mens players are not dominating through aces or pure baseline play, these dudes have a lot of finesse and strategy.


Whats the average rally length in men's vs women's tennis? I guarantee the women's is significantly longer. And thus more interesting to watch.

Its the same reason I prefer mens college basketball to the NBA. The pro men are CLEARLY more athletic and better basketball players, but the college game is more fun to watch.

Ditto, college football over the NFL. But that has a different reason in that all college teams arent playing a variation of the same offense like in the NFL.
 
2010-05-16 06:48:34 PM
Article: Interest in flag football is so high, some high schools field freshman, junior and varsity squads and still make cuts. Its popularity has led to grumbling by coaches of other spring sports, who say they have lost their best athletes to flag football.

Girls are choosing to play flag football instead of sports that aren't "dead ends". This is a problem.
 
2010-05-16 07:01:31 PM
Tjos Weel: Whats the average rally length in men's vs women's tennis? I guarantee the women's is significantly longer. And thus more interesting to watch.

Is it more interesting if it results in less winners and less strategy but more sloppy errors? To each his own I guess.
 
2010-05-16 07:05:07 PM
FWIW the one study I can find on this shows women do have longer rallies but significantly more baseline rallies, oddly enough.
 
2010-05-16 07:27:49 PM
So they think the only validity to sports is to make money in a career of it?

Oh wait, they're women, everything is money.
 
2010-05-16 07:47:28 PM
Feminism...The true essence of wanting to have your cake, and eating it too.
 
2010-05-16 07:50:58 PM
varmitydog: Marching band competitions have the same problems as the cheerleading competitions, who knows how they judge them; it often involve who looks the sharpest in their uniforms. Although how one can look sharp while wearing a brightly colored toilet bowl brush on their hat is debatable.

Marching band is most certainly not judged on who has the prettiest uniforms. It's judged on technical aspects, such as everyone being in step & hitting their marks (not being out of line/curve/whatever). And of course the musicality & overall effect. I mean, it's basically 200-300 people all working together... in concert, if you will. One person messes up and you will lose.

I wouldn't call it a sport. There's enough subjective aspects in the judging to make it more of an artform (much like ice skating). But there are a lot of technical aspects to it, so you probably shouldn't run your mouth about things you don't know a lot about. Just sayin.

Ken VeryBigLiar: After the 3 minute mark I think summarizes the better part of Farker's views on sport/activity debate.

That was awesome. Thank you. I laughed more in that 10 minutes than I did during all of SNL last night.
 
2010-05-16 07:51:41 PM
RockIsDead: Oh wait, they're women, everything is money.

Oh please. Men are so much better, right?
 
2010-05-16 08:37:54 PM
Bill Frist: FWIW the one study I can find on this shows women do have longer rallies but significantly more baseline rallies, oddly enough.

They have longer rallies because most of them don't push the action. There's no going for lines, no pushing your opponent around the court and controlling them. They don't mix speeds or spins as much, don't pull people into net and push them back.

I can aimlessly hit a rally all day against someone equally as good as me. It's not entertaining to watch.

If you watch men's rallies, you'll see the men either building the angle more and more until they can rip a shot up the line or running their opponent back and forth, forcing him to hit crazy good shots on the run.

You rarely see those kinds of points in women's tennis.

/I know you agree with me, just explaining this one

baorao: I'll take the sloppiness of the women's game over the "nobody can break the other's serve/lets trade 140mph aces/we should both stand on the baseline the whole match" style of the men's game.

The point of tennis is that the serve is supposed to mean something. It's important that you not lose your serve. 140mph aces are rare; there's maybe 3 people I can think of off the top of my head that get there frequently.

All I can guess is that you watched Wimbledon and only ever bothered to watch Andy Roddick's matches back when he was all serve and forehand and didn't have much else to go on. Maybe Goran Ivanisevic. Outside of grass courts, though, a fast serve doesn't really do all that much good with racket technology because you can get a decent return without even making great contact.

/women are still sexier
//if you're watching sports for sexual appeal, you're doing it wrong
 
2010-05-16 09:21:38 PM
IAmRight: Bill Frist: FWIW the one study I can find on this shows women do have longer rallies but significantly more baseline rallies, oddly enough.

They have longer rallies because most of them don't push the action. There's no going for lines, no pushing your opponent around the court and controlling them. They don't mix speeds or spins as much, don't pull people into net and push them back.

I can aimlessly hit a rally all day against someone equally as good as me. It's not entertaining to watch.

If you watch men's rallies, you'll see the men either building the angle more and more until they can rip a shot up the line or running their opponent back and forth, forcing him to hit crazy good shots on the run.

You rarely see those kinds of points in women's tennis.

/I know you agree with me, just explaining this one

baorao: I'll take the sloppiness of the women's game over the "nobody can break the other's serve/lets trade 140mph aces/we should both stand on the baseline the whole match" style of the men's game.

The point of tennis is that the serve is supposed to mean something. It's important that you not lose your serve. 140mph aces are rare; there's maybe 3 people I can think of off the top of my head that get there frequently.

All I can guess is that you watched Wimbledon and only ever bothered to watch Andy Roddick's matches back when he was all serve and forehand and didn't have much else to go on. Maybe Goran Ivanisevic. Outside of grass courts, though, a fast serve doesn't really do all that much good with racket technology because you can get a decent return without even making great contact.

/women are still sexier
//if you're watching sports for sexual appeal, you're doing it wrong


I don't watch tennis all the time, and I'll concede that Federer and Nadal (Blake, some others) move people around the court more than the top players in the recent past. but there was a good long stretch during the peaks of Sampras/Ivanesevic/Roddick where it just wasn't as interesting (to me) as the women.
 
2010-05-17 10:58:57 PM
Fano: Bill Frist: one thing people always say is that sports that pay for themselves should be exempt. That seems like it would work. Really just exempting football would fix a lot of things.

That would help. It's a shame that college athletics in general has to suffer. Remember that the entire point of the NCAA is not to be a professional athlete factory. Rather, it is to inculcate into the student body sportsmanship, a drive for excellence, competition, etc. Getting more students into track and field, or any of the non-revenue sports builds a healthy person for a lifetime.

Disbanding wrestling, baseball, various smaller sports defeats the spirit of college athletics.

UVa almost had to give up its baseball team a few years back. Now they are having fantastic seasons.


If the NCAA gave a damn about non-rev male sports it would've embraced the email survey to allow men to have a chance to play. Instead Mr. Brand dropped his balls and warned that the NCAA wouldn't accept the government's step toward equal rights.
 
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