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(Fast Company)   Toyota announces that they should have a $50K hydrogen-powered sedan ready by early 2015, with recalls ready by mid-to-late 2015   (fastcompany.com) divider line 48
    More: Unlikely, Toyota, hydrogen, Daimler AG, Chevrolet Volt, pipeline, electric cars  
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857 clicks; posted to Geek » on 12 May 2010 at 9:03 PM (5 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



48 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2010-05-12 05:41:40 PM  
I remember those recalls like they were yesterday.
 
2010-05-12 06:07:29 PM  
With 25 convenient filling stations!*

*all within a 5 mile radius of the factory.
 
2010-05-12 06:07:41 PM  
Cool. And the first refueling station will be ready around 2020. It'll probably use electricity produced from coal to generate the hydrogen.
 
2010-05-12 09:06:53 PM  
Unless this puppy generates hydrogen on the fly, it's all bunk.

/HHO generation using DC amperage
 
2010-05-12 09:17:07 PM  
 
2010-05-12 09:20:11 PM  
GM's capitalization in 2008 couldn't even cover the bar tab of some of the top executives of the Toyota corp in Japan.

Whatever.
 
2010-05-12 09:26:24 PM  
jjorsett: Cool. And the first refueling station will be ready around 2020. It'll probably use electricity produced from coal to generate the hydrogen.

Or it will generate it from natural gas. Either method uses more energy than just burning gasoline. Hydrogen is a dead end any way you look at it. Technological, economical, and even from a "climate change" perspective. The only reason it gets any funding at all is because it sounds good in press releases.
 
2010-05-12 09:27:00 PM  
There are over 100 hydrogen fueling stations in the US already. To be fair, probably half are private fleet or for research centers. But there are public ones, and no they are not all in southern cali.
 
2010-05-12 09:27:49 PM  
It seems like only yesterday when we had a daily Ford bashing thread. It's funny how quickly things change.
 
2010-05-12 09:47:23 PM  
I submitted this three days ago with a more explosive headline.

"Toyota developing $50,000 self-propelled hydrogen bombs"
 
2010-05-12 09:55:35 PM  
GaryPDX: HHO generation using DC amperage

I really hope you are joking with the suckers.
 
2010-05-12 10:03:49 PM  
Crosshair: Or it will generate it from natural gas. Either method uses more energy than just burning gasoline. Hydrogen is a dead end any way you look at it. Technological, economical, and even from a "climate change" perspective. The only reason it gets any funding at all is because it sounds good in press releases.

Yup. You know what else is a dead end? Space Nuttery. For the same reasons.
 
2010-05-12 10:11:36 PM  
HeadLever: GaryPDX: HHO generation using DC amperage

I really hope you are joking with the suckers.


Not really, I have a 13 HP Honda Engine generator burning nat gas and HHO. I use a 100 amp truck scale alternator to juice the separator (hydrolysis). It's a belted system, one belt for AC generation and one belt to an DC alternator to run the HHO gen. I use a DC to DC converter to drop 12vdc to 4dc and up the amperage to the hydrogen gen instead of a pulse method and pipe the output back into the gas engine intake as a mixture. It reduces the nat gas input by 30-40%. It's not a joke if done right.

That's about the best I can get though, these hydrogen cars are a joke. Hydrogen itself is zero sum to produce and store.
 
2010-05-12 10:11:42 PM  
lordargent: I submitted this three days ago with a more explosive headline.

"Toyota developing $50,000 self-propelled hydrogen bombs"


Combining a highly explosive fuel with uncontrolled acceleration should provide plenty of footage for the reality/video shows.
 
2010-05-12 10:19:57 PM  
GaryPDX: HeadLever: GaryPDX: HHO generation using DC amperage

I really hope you are joking with the suckers.

Not really, I have a 13 HP Honda Engine generator burning nat gas and HHO. I use a 100 amp truck scale alternator to juice the separator (hydrolysis). It's a belted system, one belt for AC generation and one belt to an DC alternator to run the HHO gen. I use a DC to DC converter to drop 12vdc to 4dc and up the amperage to the hydrogen gen instead of a pulse method and pipe the output back into the gas engine intake as a mixture. It reduces the nat gas input by 30-40%. It's not a joke if done right.

That's about the best I can get though, these hydrogen cars are a joke. Hydrogen itself is zero sum to produce and store.


Unless you're using perfect conductors and frictionless bearings it's not zero sum. You can't get 100% efficiency.
 
2010-05-12 10:25:12 PM  
GaryPDX: Not really, I have a 13 HP Honda Engine generator burning nat gas and HHO. I use a 100 amp truck scale alternator to juice the separator (hydrolysis). It's a belted system, one belt for AC generation and one belt to an DC alternator to run the HHO gen. I use a DC to DC converter to drop 12vdc to 4dc and up the amperage to the hydrogen gen instead of a pulse method and pipe the output back into the gas engine intake as a mixture. It reduces the nat gas input by 30-40%. It's not a joke if done right.

That's about the best I can get though, these hydrogen cars are a joke. Hydrogen itself is zero sum to produce and store.


If you are improving efficency of gas with input of HHO you can get around a 15% increase in efficency since you can run much leaner than normal. There is still some debate on how hard this is on the engines (plus you have to deal with the additional NOx production). Just making sure that were not spouting off any of that 'run your car on water' crap.
 
2010-05-12 10:27:05 PM  
I hope they don't go with the name they have been using for marketing tests because I don't think many people want to drive a car called "The Hindenburg".


/oh the humanity !
 
2010-05-12 10:27:11 PM  
lordargent: I submitted this three days ago with a more explosive headline. "Toyota developing $50,000 self-propelled hydrogen bombs"
=======================================================

Yeah... it's totally not like we're already driving our cars with something that's extremely flammable...

Wait. WE ARE.

/Dumbass.
 
2010-05-12 10:28:20 PM  
superchump: Unless you're using perfect conductors and frictionless bearings it's not zero sum. You can't get 100% efficiency.

It's all in the production of the hydrogen. Hydrogen itself is a storage medium. I use the horse power of the engine to bleed off enough mechanical energy to spin a permanent magnet alternator to power the hydrogen fuel cell which is fed directly into the engine air intake, no storage. HHO is inherently dangerous, you really don't want to store it. That's why production on the fly is more desirable.

If these cars have tanks, then it is zero sum. Energy is expended somewhere to produce and store the hydrogen that the car burns. And frankly, I'd rather have natural gas tanks on board than hydrogen tanks.

I've looked at using wind to produce hydrogen. Since hydrogen is a storage medium itself, it's a great way to store the energy of a wind turbine since the problem with wind turbines is storage.
 
2010-05-12 10:28:26 PM  
Bacontastesgood: There are over 100 hydrogen fueling stations in the US already. To be fair, probably half are private fleet or for research centers. But there are public ones, and no they are not all in southern cali.

Thats like two in each state - game on !!
 
2010-05-12 10:29:12 PM  
HeadLever: Just making sure that were not spouting off any of that 'run your car on water' crap.

What? You mean I can't run my car on water for only pennies a mile?

I don't believe you. You must work for the oil companies, and they don't want us to know about this amazing technology.
 
2010-05-12 10:29:24 PM  
The only hydrogen powered cars that would be efficient is one powered by nuclear fusion. That would be pretty badass though
 
2010-05-12 10:30:50 PM  
jake3988: Yeah... it's totally not like we're already driving our cars with something that's extremely flammable...

Wait. WE ARE.

/Dumbass.


Hydrogen cars get the added benifit of having its flammable substance highly pressurized. Makes it a little bit more spectacular of a fireworks display that way.
 
2010-05-12 10:33:40 PM  
HeadLever: GaryPDX: Not really, I have a 13 HP Honda Engine generator burning nat gas and HHO. I use a 100 amp truck scale alternator to juice the separator (hydrolysis). It's a belted system, one belt for AC generation and one belt to an DC alternator to run the HHO gen. I use a DC to DC converter to drop 12vdc to 4dc and up the amperage to the hydrogen gen instead of a pulse method and pipe the output back into the gas engine intake as a mixture. It reduces the nat gas input by 30-40%. It's not a joke if done right.

That's about the best I can get though, these hydrogen cars are a joke. Hydrogen itself is zero sum to produce and store.

If you are improving efficency of gas with input of HHO you can get around a 15% increase in efficency since you can run much leaner than normal. There is still some debate on how hard this is on the engines (plus you have to deal with the additional NOx production). Just making sure that were not spouting off any of that 'run your car on water' crap.


Well, I started with the gas from water bullshiat and then I built one as a stationary power generator. Not for a car. It actually worked much better running a trifuel mixture (NG) and spinning two generators, one DC permanent magnet alternator and one AC spinner. I get about 30-40% efficency. So far so good, it's a back up generator for my house and is statically fixed to my NG feed. It actually works quite well but I can't see doing it with cars. Too unstable.
 
2010-05-12 10:36:55 PM  
Rambino: HeadLever: Just making sure that were not spouting off any of that 'run your car on water' crap.

What? You mean I can't run my car on water for only pennies a mile?

I don't believe you. You must work for the oil companies, and they don't want us to know about this amazing technology.


I've studied it out, he's right. It doesn't work very well at all.
 
2010-05-12 10:58:58 PM  
Good thing I'll still be driving my used car that gets 20 mpg because who the fark can afford a brand new $50,000 car!?
 
2010-05-12 11:05:10 PM  
deanayer: I hope they don't go with the name they have been using for marketing tests because I don't think many people want to drive a car called "The Hindenburg".


/oh the humanity !


The Toyota Manatee hydrogen-powered SUV!

/it's huge!
 
2010-05-12 11:10:49 PM  
Toyota makes good products. Subby is a loser.
 
2010-05-12 11:22:13 PM  
GaryPDX: Rambino: HeadLever: Just making sure that were not spouting off any of that 'run your car on water' crap.

What? You mean I can't run my car on water for only pennies a mile?

I don't believe you. You must work for the oil companies, and they don't want us to know about this amazing technology.

I've studied it out, he's right. It doesn't work very well at all.


Oh please. You're just an oil company shill, just like everybody else. It's thanks to people like you that the car companies killed the 100 mpg car back in the 70s.

Technology belongs to the people, not the corporations!
 
2010-05-12 11:43:20 PM  
flyin1: Toyota makes good products.

Hey man. Things sure are wild here in the future. We got a black guy as a president. Also, stay out of New York on 9/11/2001!
 
2010-05-12 11:49:34 PM  
Hydrogen worked for the Hindenburg, and it will work for cars!
 
2010-05-12 11:58:26 PM  
Came here for the mazda rx8, leaving satisfied.

mazda's had a hydrogen car available for lease in japan for years.

Mazda: The most under-appreciated car in the world. It's like the shy nerdy guy with the giant dong.

/shy
//nerdy
 
2010-05-13 12:08:14 AM  
Rambino: Oh please. You're just an oil company shill, just like everybody else. It's thanks to people like you that the car companies killed the 100 mpg car back in the 70s.

Technology belongs to the people, not the corporations!


Okay, that made me laugh.

Here, gear up (new window).
 
2010-05-13 09:22:30 AM  
Meh, I have the same problem with this as I do with the Chevy Volt. Unless the dam thing comes down to 20K or less it is not worth purchasing. I mean seriously is there any wonder that US consumers die poor and broke? 50K for a car when the average salary is 44K? who thought that was a good idea? And what idiot buys this kind of car on that kind of salary?
 
2010-05-13 10:10:09 AM  
And at only $50,000 people will be jumping at the opportunity to sign up for a $1000/month loan to drive one!

/sarcasm, i hasn't one
 
2010-05-13 10:35:37 AM  
jake3988: lordargent: I submitted this three days ago with a more explosive headline. "Toyota developing $50,000 self-propelled hydrogen bombs"
=======================================================

Yeah... it's totally not like we're already driving our cars with something that's extremely flammable...

Wait. WE ARE.

/Dumbass.


Contrary to what Hollywood has taught you gasoline isnt that spectacularly flammable.
 
2010-05-13 11:09:26 AM  
Digitalstrange: jake3988: lordargent: I submitted this three days ago with a more explosive headline. "Toyota developing $50,000 self-propelled hydrogen bombs"
=======================================================

Yeah... it's totally not like we're already driving our cars with something that's extremely flammable...

Wait. WE ARE.

/Dumbass.

Contrary to what Hollywood has taught you gasoline isnt that spectacularly flammable.


Duh. That's why it's labeled "inflammable", sheesh.
 
2010-05-13 11:27:35 AM  
I'd rather be in a Hydrogen fire than a gasoline fire..
That said, compressibility is the real problem, hard to get any range..
Hydrogen's best use is as a fixed point "Battery" in an facility with no real size constraints, like a rural wind farm..

//Your most economical option still hasn't changed, every 3-5 years, go buy a four-cylinder gasoline car, for about 5-8k and put the money you saved not buying a volt/prius/wondercarX into Coca-cola stock/T-bills/CDs...

//You'll always be driving a fairly new/reliable vehicle, and you'll come out way ahead (unless gas goes to 10$ a gallon or something)
 
2010-05-13 11:37:11 AM  
dforkus: I'd rather be in a Hydrogen fire than a gasoline fire..
That said, compressibility is the real problem, hard to get any range..
Hydrogen's best use is as a fixed point "Battery" in an facility with no real size constraints, like a rural wind farm..

//Your most economical option still hasn't changed, every 3-5 years, go buy a four-cylinder gasoline car, for about 5-8k and put the money you saved not buying a volt/prius/wondercarX into Coca-cola stock/T-bills/CDs...

//You'll always be driving a fairly new/reliable vehicle, and you'll come out way ahead (unless gas goes to 10$ a gallon or something)


Not a lot of people realize this. Even buying a new 'econobox' like a Hyundai or a Kia for $10-12K is cheaper over the projected life of the car than a hybrid.

/I've done the math.
 
2010-05-13 12:08:54 PM  
in other news, GM and Ford have never had recalls.......


they are that good!
 
2010-05-13 12:26:37 PM  
Linux_Yes: in other news, GM and Ford have never had recalls.......

they are that good!


Well, they've never had 10 in the span of a couple months, most of which involve certain death or catastrophic failure of the vehicle. Chevy did have a recall last year where the cupholders weren't staying in place, though.
 
2010-05-13 01:43:20 PM  
Gotta love's Toyota's unstoppable approach to accelerating technology beyond their competetors.
 
2010-05-13 03:12:15 PM  
cybrwzrd: Gotta love's Toyota's unstoppable approach to accelerating technology beyond their competetors.

Not to mention the drivers.
 
2010-05-13 03:24:34 PM  
Kraftwerk Orange: FCVs powered by H2 produced from natural gas via SMR are CLEANER than a pure BEV plugged into the typical US power socket.

Do they account for the energy required to make the steam required for SMR? The actual paper is currently behind a pay-wall.

Regardless, the chart you linked to shows FCVs to be only about ~10% better than BEVs but they did not account for on-site electrical generation - only on-site SMR. I'd love to read the actual study and get the details but I'm not gonna spend $42 on it...
=Smidge=
 
2010-05-13 03:36:53 PM  
Smidge204: Do they account for the energy required to make the steam required for SMR?

Yes.
 
2010-05-14 01:51:06 AM  
Kraftwerk Orange: Crosshair: jjorsett: Cool. And the first refueling station will be ready around 2020. It'll probably use electricity produced from coal to generate the hydrogen.

Or it will generate it from natural gas. Either method uses more energy than just burning gasoline. Hydrogen is a dead end any way you look at it. Technological, economical, and even from a "climate change" perspective. The only reason it gets any funding at all is because it sounds good in press releases.



FCVs powered by H2 produced from natural gas via SMR are CLEANER than a pure BEV plugged into the typical US power socket.

They also have better range, and can be refilled in about five minutes instead of eight hours.

Then, there's also the capability to make hydrogen from renewable resources, like they're planning on doing in Hawaii.

Bottom line, BEVs and FCVs will coexist on the highways of the future. BEVS will be the short-range commuter cars, while FCVs will be for longer distances and greater cargo capacities.


Incorrect. Those studies used flawed methodology and have been thoroughly debunked.

Link (new window)

Link (new window)

Link (new window)
 
2010-05-14 08:16:08 AM  
Crosshair: Kraftwerk Orange: Crosshair: jjorsett: Cool. And the first refueling station will be ready around 2020. It'll probably use electricity produced from coal to generate the hydrogen.

Or it will generate it from natural gas. Either method uses more energy than just burning gasoline. Hydrogen is a dead end any way you look at it. Technological, economical, and even from a "climate change" perspective. The only reason it gets any funding at all is because it sounds good in press releases.



FCVs powered by H2 produced from natural gas via SMR are CLEANER than a pure BEV plugged into the typical US power socket.

They also have better range, and can be refilled in about five minutes instead of eight hours.

Then, there's also the capability to make hydrogen from renewable resources, like they're planning on doing in Hawaii.

Bottom line, BEVs and FCVs will coexist on the highways of the future. BEVS will be the short-range commuter cars, while FCVs will be for longer distances and greater cargo capacities.

Incorrect. Those studies used flawed methodology and have been thoroughly debunked.

Link (new window)

Link (new window)

Link (new window)


His bottom line is correct, though I would correct it somewhat: LFV (Liquid Fueled Vehicles*) will coexist with BEVs. The pure BEVs will be urban vehicles, and the LFV's will be for anyone who needs to drive more than 20 or 30 miles away from home. I highly suspect that LFVs will always outnumber BEVs. The market for BEVs just seems to be rather small, limited to urban areas only, and you need billions worth of infrastructure installation and upgrades to make them come anywhere near the utility of current ICE vehicles.

*Liquid Fuel is not necessarily internal combustion. It could be fuel cells or fuel cell hybrids, or a hybrid using microturbines, ICE or ICE hybrids using either petroleum based or a renewable fuel. Refueling liquid fuel powered vehicles is quick, easy, and the infrastructure is already in place, and it allows one to travel far without needed to worry about recharging.
 
2010-05-14 02:44:15 PM  
lordargent: I submitted this three days ago with a more explosive headline.

"Toyota developing $50,000 self-propelled hydrogen bombs"


Pfft. Ford was there first:

static.howstuffworks.com
 
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