"...killed in Israel's wars since 1860? What war were they fighting then?

Awesome!

OMG!!! He said the word "Palestine" to a bunch of Israelites!! He shall be stoned to death for uttering such a word!!!

Seriously, they all need to STFU and learn how to calm down.

this happened last weekend...

This pilot has an interesting sense of humor. I bet he likes Jackass videos.

Freudian slip?

That is hilarious.

they've only lost 21K people?

well shiat, that's nothing!

WHEEEE!

Hah! I love people who do that. I know this one kid who asks people to guess where he's from and when they say "Israel" he goes "Nah, Palestine"

I think it is funny.

/sarcasm starts

Palestenians don't count though, so its ok to get mad when someone references what used to be their homeland.

Excuse me? I'm surprised that this person didn't get his ass whipped.

This seems to come up from time to time. Maps that label isreal "Palistine".

One problem. There has never been a nation named Palistine.

At least he didn't say 'Welcome to Detroit.'

Touche.

Actually, that's pretty farking offensive. This article failed to mention that he also said "Happy Independence Day to Palestine", when it happened to be Israel's Independence Day, which is much like our Memorial Day...where they honor all the people killed over the years in all the wars. The pilot did it to inflame the passengers on a really sensitive day, and should be canned.

They should have run over the pilot with a bulldozer. That'll learn 'em.

Must be flame day here in farkistan. First muslims angry over X-Men part deux, now tarded pilots babbling about landing in the wrong country. Nice one!
What's next.

French really think Americans are chicken

or

China says the worlds to blame for SARS. Not them

Pakistan is about as much a nation as Kurdistan. If every ethnic group in the world had its own nation, America would be split into several hundred territories.

OY VEY!

That pilot is a with a twisted humour.

Dr.Jones -

where did you get "Pakistan"?

He won't be flying into Palestine anymore that's for sure!

Whoops! I just did it too...

The pilot was accurate. There was no misunderstanding.

All others who disagree with me are wrong.

Dr. Jones trolling attempt thereby thwarted by him accidentally typing Pakistan instead of Palistine. Who knew trolling was so tough?

Well he may have meant palestine Texas.

I guess its better than him running the length of the plane wearing a parachute and shouting "were all gonna die women and pilots first".

Nice to know that Italy has become so tolerant of the Jewish culture. Too bad they didn't feel that way during WWII, eh?

And since when has Israel been a country since 1860? Are the Israelis pissed off at the neo-Nazi revisionists, so now they're rewriting their own history? As far as my limited knowledge goes, Israel has been a recognized country since the late 1940s (48 or 49, right?). Can anyone educate me?

Am I the only one who thinks that fvcking with anybody, regardless of ethnicity, race, sex, etc. is really funny? This is funny!

Fark.

Palestine is a name of a region, much like Sahara is used to describe a region.

The Jews who lived inside or outside of Eretz Yisrael (Israel) have called it such for 3,000 years.
The first people in fact to start referring to themselves as "Palestinians" were in fact Zionist Jews who like to anchor themselves psychologically to land rather than the bible. There were newspapers, hotels, restaraunts, businesses with the name "Palestine" in them, and they all belonged to Jewish proprietors.

The pilot is an insensitive prick though.

Normally, I'd say people need to STFU and calm down, but I can understand where Israelis would get offended. Seeing as very few of it's neighbors refuse to recognize the country has the right to exist, I can see where they'd be defensive when a farking airline pilot from neo-fascist Italy decides not to recognize the country's proper name either. I mean, anyone here would be a little jumpy they were part of a population of 6 million surrounded by 100 million people who not only want your country erased from the face of the earth, but you too.

In other news, pilots of Air Iraq have been heard saying, "Welcome to the newly-created territory, Texas Jr."

05-08-03 11:36:58 AM Draksig
Excuse me? I'm surprised that this person didn't get his ass whipped.
This seems to come up from time to time. Maps that label isreal "Palistine".
One problem. There has never been a nation named Palistine.

Yes....,keep denying them their home.

/Sarcasm
//Flame-war inciting post

The only problem with this is that the Israelis will probably use this as a reason to slaughter a bunch a Palestinian children. fark zionism.

Let the Israelis have Israel.

Just let the Palestinians have Judah.

Give the guy a break, at least he didn't say "Occupied Palestine".

Wow, it doesn't take much to bring the Jew-haters out.

Seething with hate, aren't you LawyersRock, Macabre and Casaguapo?

Welcome to Palistine ? Oy vey !

Fry1138
I guess its better than him running the length of the plane wearing a parachute and shouting "were all gonna die women and pilots first".

I tried that once on a flight to Vegas! Everybody just ignored me. :D

DeanMoriarty: By Pakistan I of course meant Palestine.
/head*
/hit*
/keyboard*

They should fill up his plane with jet fuel and force him to crash it into the UN terrorist... er "refugee" camps. Then the towel-heads that are left can scurry off to Jordan where they belong.

Pakistan is about as much a nation as Kurdistan.

Come again? Pakistan is a nation with recognized boundaries. Kurdistan is not, although it should be.

The Kurds are an awesome bunch. They've always been pretty pro-American.

Yes, LawyersRock...you nailed it on the head there, boy!

Zionism is all about slaughtering Palestinian children! It's the main tenet of the movement! Kill as many Palestinian children as possible. You, sir, are so well-informed!

05-08-03 10:19:18 AM Kevinatilusa
"...killed in Israel's wars since 1860? What war were they fighting then?

Good question.

My $.02

Take all US forces out of Isreal and Palestine. Take all US made weapons out of them as well. Let them fight it out in hand to hand combat or with whatever meager weapons they might have made themselves. To the victor go the spoils.

I really don't see why the US or any other country gives a shiat which group "owns" the land. I bet Isreal would be much more willing to find a peaceful solution if they did not have the US backing them up.

Isolationism is the key to our future!

These flame wars remind me of Walken singing "Potato/Potato" on SNL.

"Let's call the whole thing off."

Joshg: It was a mistake. I meant Palestine, not Pakistan. My typin' fingers betrayed me.



11 AM and already I've had a long day...

Palestine is a Farce

LexiLuthor: strangely enough, I think the Jewish lobby in this country is too powerful to allow for that... as far as I can tell, there really isn't much of a Jewish lobby on almost any issue, except Israel/foreign policy issues. But in those realms, they wield quite a lot of power.

Interestingly, a lot of Christians seem to have jumped on the pro-Israel bandwagon as well lately.

Tigger: I loved Dressed to Kill, too, but he did that entire comedy routine before the current PM of Italy came into power. with all his protectionist policies and xenophobia, I'd say the moniker "neo-fascist" is increasingly ringing true . . .

I got it! Let's create a "Freedom Car" that doesn't rely on Middle Eastern Oil! That way, Haliburton and Exxon can now dedicate their business to creating playgrounds and zoo's in the Middle East!

LexiLuthor: although I hope your last sentence was sarcastic...

Critisize Israel in any way shape or form and you're a jew hater. Maybe I should try that. It's so much easier to level "hater" charges at someone than have to debate a valid point of view, isn't it?

Interestingly, a lot of Christians seem to have jumped on the pro-Israel bandwagon as well lately.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. I think many Americans are tired of seeing the results of the I/P conflict on the nightly news and would prefer to see Israel stand down a bit. Seeing rocks vs. tanks and the blood that results tends to make you root for the underdog.

/bait

The next American Airlines pilot landing in Rome should tell the passengers, "Welcome to Guido-land, the home of cowardly spaghetti twirlers."

And the so-called "palestinians" are mostly Jordanians. why doesn't Jordan take them back, instead of making them live in refugee camps for 50 years? I thought charity was one of those 5 Muslim virtues?

I suppose this would be like a pilot saying "Welcome to America Jr." when they land in Canada.

/nuttin

Nelson: Here comes a greaseball!

Luigi: [walking in] Hey! Luigi bring-a you kids-a free pizza! ...

LexiLuthor

..... I bet Isreal would be much more willing to find a peaceful solution if they did not have the US backing them up.

If the US wasn't backing them up the "peaceful solution" would be dead Jews everywhere and an end to Israel. You'd be a militant reactionary jerk if all of your neighbors wanted you dead too.

Yeah, and "Jihad" means 'Witness', but it has apparently been taken to mean "Witness this, sucker!"


Good ideas are usually perverted by bad people.

This guy might just have a twisted sense of humour. We don't know if he made a political statement or not. It might have been a joke. One of those, that although it is funny, you regret saying it about a second it comes out of your mouth. I will admit it was inappropriate. But have we become such tight asses that if some makes a joke about Isreal that they are anti-semetic?

I thought it was funny and I could care less if they call it Isreal, Palestine of Frakisatn. Who cares??? These guys have been blowing theselves up and running over each other bulldozers for so long that whatever either side thinks is nonsense. I think they should kick out the Isrealis and the Palestinians (who are geneticly identical) and give it to the Tibetans or something. Both sides have adequately proved a thousand times over that they don't deserve a country.

why do italians bring a bucket of shiat to a wedding?

to keep the flies off the bride.

Damn_Conservative_Media: And that is exactly the problem. I don't think we should be supporting either side, simply because they are both be beligerant and, heck, it ain't none of our business no-how.

I am aware of the strong Jewish lobby on this point though. I think they should be silenced as much as those stupid Christian lobbyists who are anti-choice, anti-gay and pro-school prayer. Why? Simply put, religious views have no place in our political system. The government is not supposed to uphold one religion over another, yet it does any time it gives money to Israel for weapons, because their beef with the Palestinians is essentially a religious one.

Too much stupidity in the world to handle...will sponteneously combust....

GEAH
Wow, it doesn't take much to bring the Jew-haters out.

Seething with hate, aren't you LawyersRock, Macabre and Casaguapo?

Uh, speaking for myself, no. You need to relax, pal.

LexiLuthor: and I bet the Palestinians will clamor for a peaceful solution now that they're not getting any money from Saddam and world scrutiny is fixed much more intently on Saudi money going to the Palestinians. America just balances the odds in that fight. The difference is, no Israeli politician has been in control of the his people for 30 years, and has had the opportinity to embezzle ~1 billion from them (sorry for the PDF)

Wonder who's stronger, the Jewish Lobby or the Arab Lobby?

Oh wait. Isn't Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia a good friend of Dubya, the single most powerful man in the world?

+1 to Arab Lobby

Damn_Conservative:

"I hope your last sentence was sarcastic"

No, it wasn't. OUr founding fathers had very strong views on this. They did not want the United States involved with the politics of the world, because it would ultimately draw enemies, which it did. 9/11 would not have happened if we would have kept our noses out of what was going on in the Middle East. Vietnam would have never happened if we were not so worried about what other countries were up to. It sounds shiatty, but the US has plenty of it's own problems without having to deal with other country's issues as well. And we can definately deal without the enmity of everyone who doesn't like our stance on issues that have no relevance to our own country.

why can't the Israelis just give up the West Bank in exchange for peace?

Why can't the "palestinians" just give up the suicide bombings for peace? Why can't the arabs give homes to the "palestinians" for peace?

Maybe the Jews should just turn left and march themselves into the Mediterrean Sea for peace, huh?

Seeing rocks vs. tanks and the blood that results tends to make you root for the underdog.

Unless the underdog is prone to killing innocent civilians through terrorist acts. I be we would be pretty pissed if terrorists attacked our country. Wait...they did and we are. Hmm...why not let the Israeli's defend themselves as we would?

BritneysSpeculum: except there's a long history of Jews in that region buying land from the Arabs - prior to 1948 Jews and Arabs lived in relative peace in that region, until the Arab states decided the Jews shouldn't have that land anymore. That the palestinian Jordanians rose up against the Israelis on ther land was a good enoug hreason to remove them. In America, we'd put them in prison, but not every country likes to have the kind of prison population America does.

err...bet we would be

that shoulda been bet...d'oh

BritneysSpeculum: you body count proves only one thing: the Israelis are better shots than the palestinians.

(and i like your handle!)

BritneysSpeculum: only the Israelis at least try to make their actions justifiable. Palestinian suicide bombers don't even try to restrict their actions to military targets - Hamas is very clear that _ALL_ Israeli citizens are considered fair game. Israel at least tries to do less damage - and with the kind of weapons they have, that the ratio of casualities is only 6 to 1, that shows some pretty impressive restraint.

Criticism of Israel is fine, Dave_te85.

Calling Israelis "baby killers" is hatred.

Albo, we have your IP address. Please report to Human Resources for sensitivity training.

Bass555: Well, I've definitely seen a lot of conservative Christians come out in support of Israel. I offer two documents:

1
2

But, a lot of Christian websites voice support for Israel and solidarity with Israel in general now.

http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/pray/pray0115.htm
http://www.cc.org/

Kill'em all. Let Allah and Yaweh sort'em out.

Or

Give the land to the Catholics in Northern Ireland!or the Tibetans. Or Farkers so we can really have a Farkistan!

Or

Let's move on. These people will NEVER sort this issue out. Why do we still try?


All three work for me.

Bass555: I think many Americans are tired of seeing the results of the I/P conflict on the nightly news and would prefer to see Israel stand down a bit. Seeing rocks vs. tanks and the blood that results tends to make you root for the underdog.

No sensible person roots for suicide bombers who target civilians.

9/11 would not have happened if we would have kept our noses out of what was going on in the Middle East.

That is complete and utter bullshiat! The Islamo-fascists are just as pissed off about our music, movies, books, magazines, etc. getting over there and corrupting the minds of their followers as they are about us being in Saudi Arabia. What should we do, stop exporting cultural items and ideas?

Cosimo: just some old jokes. i already had my mandatory sensitivity seminar. i now know I am complicit in the structures of hegemony imposed by the eurocentric patriarchy and its strategies of domination.

All right, I am going to confess here that I am and have always been largely ignorant of the story behind all the tensoin and bloodshed. Can anybody point me to somewhere I can do a little reading and educate myself? I mostly just want to be able to jump in on these flame wars from time to time. Is there anything online you Farkers would recommend for me to read to get some sort of handle on the situation?

Tigger -

Italy invented fascicm
Not that I'm suggesting that they're some sort of totalitarian autocracy today, but strictly speaking, Fascism came out of Italy - so clearly they're capable.

I tried to care, but these darned homeless people in my city kept distracting me from reading the opinions of people who like to tell me what to think...

"Will work for food." Please! Can't you see that people I'll never meet are mad at each other half a world away over fundamental differences in lifestyles and religions? Don't you care that neither will ever attempt to change in order to pursue an end to wanton death and violence???

Stupid hungry neighbor!

BritneysSpeculum: why can't the Israelis just give up the West Bank in exchange for peace?

That's a good question...for the Palestinians.

Their answer: "We don't just want the West Bank. We want to see Israel destroyed. Look, it's not even on our maps!"

LexiLuthor
Actually, the Israelis manufacture most of their own equipment. They are a heavily industrialized nation, and I'm pretty certain they only thing they really buy from us are missile guidance systems which we sell to almost anybody that asks.

As a general aside, the Palestinians are a group of savages that can't handle self rule. We already tried to give them a state, some 40 years ago. As soon as they saw themselves as a recognized power, they tried to take on Jordan, except that King Hussein would have none of that and kicked their asses. Then they tried to take on Israel, who also would have none of that, and kicked their asses and took their land. To the victor go the spoils. It's the rule of life.

The Israelis are THE military power native to the middle east. They have successfully defended themselves against decades of attack from their surrounding neighbors, and have only gotten stronger. I don't think you people realize just how restrained the Israelis are. If they really, really wanted to, they could bulldoze all of the territory the Palestinians currently occupy, but they've held back. They see themselves as teh America of the middle east, they have enough power that they can't use it without being seen as imperialistic.

Some of you keep biatching about the slaughter of Palestinian children without recognizing that Israeli incursions into Palestinian land have always been in response to new or recurring attacks from Palestinian forces, be they PLO or suicide bomber. Imagine your home under constant threat of having some asshat blow up a school bus because you don't follow the same bible. You'd be pretty trigger-happy too.

BritneysSpeculum: Suicide bombings are wrong, but since the latest Intafada started the body count is about 6 Palestinian to 1 Israeli. For every terrorist that the Israeli missle attack kills, about 10 innocent person dies.

You'd think that might encourage the Palestinians to do something about their terrorism problem...other than encourage it, that is.

LexiLuthor

I think Israel doesn't need US aid now as much as they did in the 60's-70's. They have a pretty good economy selling hightech and weapons.

Also, from Israel's POV, it's not a religious conflict. It's about security for their country. They were attacked. They didn't attack Palestine. True, they are milking that for all it's worth and it's about time they be force to comply with the UN resolutions telling them to get out of the west bank and Gaza.

Ant:

If they don't want them (which they obviously don't), we can stop selling it to them. No biggie, really. Most products that they object to are illegal in those countries (or at least censored), so we really shouldn't be trying to export those products to those countries anyhow. We just prove to them that we have no respect for their laws when we do export the forbidden items to their country, which gives them yet another reason to hate us. If they don't want it, we won't give it to them, it's very simple really.

05-08-03 12:25:35 PM LexiLuthor

9/11 would not have happened if we would have kept our noses out of what was going on in the Middle East.

Another nave apologist for murdering fanatics rears their head. Anyone who professes that we (USA) are responsible for the terror attacks of September 11th has an infantile understanding of the ideology and underlying reasons for the Arab/Muslim hatred of our way of life.

05-08-03 12:25:35 PM LexiLuthor
Damn_Conservative:

"I hope your last sentence was sarcastic"

No, it wasn't. OUr founding fathers had very strong views on this. They did not want the United States involved with the politics of the world, because it would ultimately draw enemies...

Uh, you did learn about WWI and WWII right? I think the notion that the US could simply retreat into it's own little world and worry about it's own problems only was stomped on a bit in the early 20th century. Isolationism was very popular at the time, but the world would be a very different place if we had not entered either of those wars. And very different in a bad way. In fact, without dialogue with countries during the Cold War... and treaties like SALT...

I think technology is the final nail in the coffin of isolationism. There is simply no way to remain isolationist, unless you are referring to isolating ourselves from some as yet undiscovered aliens... events thousands of miles away simply have too great an effect now. Combined with the obvious advantages of economic treaties, international trade, arms reduction treaties... etc.

NutznGum: But have we become such tight asses that if some makes a joke about Isreal that they are anti-semetic?

I'm sure that if he had said, "Welcome to Auschwitz," you would have busted a nut laughing.

05-08-03 12:08:50 PM LexiLuthor
Take all US forces out of Isreal and Palestine. Take all US made weapons out of them as well. Let them fight it out in hand to hand combat or with whatever meager weapons they might have made themselves.

Yeah, because no other country sells weapons in that region
*rolls eyes*
Where was that $50 million illegal Palestinian arms shipment from, anyway? (Pssst, I think it was Iran. And you can bet your boots they weren't U.S. made)

Oh goody! Lets try the cold light of rational thought and figure out whos to blame for the Arab-Israeli conflict. that should work.

I mean its only been going on for just over 2 millenia, should be easy to sort out.

05-08-03 12:36:45 PM TheReject
They (Israel) see themselves as teh America of the middle east, they have enough power that they can't use it without being seen as imperialistic.

America is worried about being seen as imperialistic? Coulda fooled me.

America is the America of the middle East.

Yay, so much for my html skills.

Bass555:

1
2

TheReject: All the more reason why we should just pull out and leave them to their own business. Let them prove that they can defend themselves. Make them fight for the country that they didn't actually win for themselves in the first place. Not saying they don't have a right to it, but simply stating they should defend it if it is truly theirs.

Maybe Israel will take over the Middle East, maybe the Palestinians will, I personally don't give a shiat. The US shouldn't be worrying about it all that much either. I've said it before and I'll say it again: IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM!

test...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1969542.stm
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:w9TXN_9AxacC:www.washtimes.com/culture/20 020617-55790.htm&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Zionist: Abraham founded this place, and it belongs to us, his ancestors!

Muslim: Abraham founded this place, and it belongs to us, his ancestors!

..There's your rational explanation right there.

Hey, did anyone meantion yet, that this whole i/p conflict has been brought to the world by the great peacemakers of Great Britian? Of course after WWII they realized they couldn't fix the problems they caused so passed it on to the great United Nations, who have done a wonderful job at creating some peace these last 50 years.

If there are any English pro-palistine farkers out there, could you answer me a question? How can you disagree with Isreal's policy of building homes in disputed lands when they got the idea from the English and their occupation of Irish lands?

to Palisrael

to Israelistine.

Simopi

LexiLuthor -

Isolationism was never really that ingrained into most american founding fathers. Yes George Washington said "stay out of foreign wars" in his farewell adress, but most people didn't like that much. They saw themselves as the new kids on the block, and most people were anxious to wield some power and fix some of the perceived problems in the world because their own "government by the people and for teh people" was so good so they wanted to spread the idea around

After WWi Isolationism was huge again, but even way before then (Monroe doctrine - 1820s I think)) American policy makers were saying "we're here, we're important too, so get used to it Europe because our opinion is going to matter for quite a while"

Isolationism is tricky because very few countries are totally autonomous. When you have it really good, people will come crawling to you and try to take some of your advantages. And when you have it bad, you've isolated yourself from enemies. No country, even a small one, never mind teh USA, has ever prospered under self-imposed international isolation

If they don't want it, we won't give it to them, it's very simple really.

No. It's not that simple. They know that as long as their population wants American stuff, they're going to get it and be influenced by it. What they want is for us to stop making it altogether.

Haven't you ever noticed the bass-ackwards way the Islamists do away with moral temptation?

Ex: Can't stop getting horny over your neighbor's wife? It's not your fault for being an unfaithful, leering pig, it's that slut's fault for dressing like such a hussy! How dare she show her form?!

FARK THEM ALL!!!! Let them kill each other!! One group wears one kind of hat on their head, while the other group wears another kind of hat on their head. THEY MUST THEREFORE ALL KILL EACH OTHER!

I'm tired of people arguing about this. If they can't get along, FARK THEM. ALL OF THEM.

NutznGum -

Cut up Israel to create Karkistan? Oh right, because we farkers have demonstarted time and time again our tolerance and ability to discuss our disagreements peacefully

:)

US companies can do business with other countries as much as they want. I'm not saying that we should restrict trade with other countries, as long as the other countries want what we are selling.

BTW, I am NOT saying the US is entirely to blame for September 11, asshats who see violence as the only way to solve their made-up problems are to blame. The reason I am saying that it never would have happened if we had kept our nose out of other countries business is that people who commit these horrible acts tend to only do it if they percieve some injury from the people they are killing. In other words, they would have had no reason to kill us. They are psychotic, and impossible to negotiate with, therefore, why bother trying. Just let them do their thing (so long as it doesn't affect the US specifically), and they'll let us do ours. Simple solution.

Ant: very funny stuff. "My God! Her nose is naked!" *ejaculates*

By the way...In my last post, I used the word Islamist. Please note that Islamist != Muslim

05-08-03 12:39:01 PM GrymReeper
05-08-03 12:25:35 PM LexiLuthor

...
Another nave apologist for murdering fanatics rears their head. Anyone who professes that we (USA) are responsible for the terror attacks of September 11th has an infantile understanding of the ideology and underlying reasons for the Arab/Muslim hatred of our way of life.

Uh, I'm not so sure about that. It seems that the motivation for terrorism against the US vis-a-vis Al-Qaeda at least has more to do with our troops being in the middle east, particularly Saudi Arabia, than anything else. Our involvement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict also seems to be a factor.

Well, it's be a blast flaming with y'all, I'm off to lunch. Toodles.

Feel fre to bash me in my absense. My jewish friend (who is highly pro-Israel) and I debate over this stuff for hours. I think we need a Muslim in the mix too.....

Can't remember hwo made it but this was a good point. technology is teh last straw for isolationism. We really are in a global village now, and not only is any attempt to isolate yoruself impossible, but even if you could do it you'd shoot yourslef in teh foot due to interdependence

Also, this whole "fortress north america" thing that GW wants to put missiles in space is ridiculous as well. You can't build a shield anymore. Now you have to stop problems 10 years before they start. And I'm not saying "911 was America's own damn fault" because obviously it's a bunch of factors, but we really do have to fix problems down the line which arent' apparent yet.

Not saying it's easy - far from it - but this is the situation we find ourselvs in today I thiunk

I think Ant has a really good point here:

The reactionary forces in their societies are worried that they might lose power... if we start influencing the region, be it militarily or economically.

- Self-explanatory, don't ya think?
.


If for no other reason to to make these jittery asshats worry.

1948, not 1860 or 1960

GEAH:
NutznGum: But have we become such tight asses that if some makes a joke about Isreal that they are anti-semetic?

I'm sure that if he had said, "Welcome to Auschwitz," you would have busted a nut laughing

No I wouldn't. and that analogy isn't comparable. The isreal-palestine conflict has nothing to do with the holocaust. If he had said 'Welcome to Aushwitcz" i would have said he should be tarred and feathered and strung up from the highest tree in Tel-Aviv. But he didn't. He said 'welcome to palestine'. i hardly think that approaches the level of offensiveness as a holocasut remark. but i will concede it was an off-colour remark and it was DEFINTELY not appropriate for public consumption. My point was not so much about not being able to joke about isreal and being labeled anti-semetic, i meant that you really can't joke about anyhting these days. it was a comment on how this PC stuff is getting way out of hand. i just used this case as an example. i should have been clearer.
i sicncerely hope you don't lump me in with the rest of these KKK A**holes. I've got nothin' but love for my jewish brothas and sistas. and nothing against the arabs either. i just wish they could stop killing each other.

This whole Isreal-Palestine bullshiat could have been over years ago. Netanyahu offered to conced to all of Arafat's demand except for the complete destruction of the state of Isreal. Then the homicide bombers decided to start killing kids in pizza shops and discos because they say Isreal would not give the statehood....something to think about...

Peetah:
NutznGum -

Cut up Israel to create Karkistan? Oh right, because we farkers have demonstarted time and time again our tolerance and ability to discuss our disagreements peacefully


Could we do any worse?? : D

What happens between Israel and the region of Palestine should matter to everyone because nuclear fallout can travel along way. FYI Canada is not America Jr. The morons who run the country are stupid in their own right.

If a pilot told me my flight was about to land in a ficticious country, I'd be pretty pissed off, too.

The Super Jews from the US and Canada have to stop emigrating there and settling in areas that belong to the Palestinians. Israel is using the same policies that Hitler used on them. They have packed all the native palestinians into camps. They have taken away their business' and their jobs. I am sick of Israel's hypocracy. Right wing Israelis killed Peres in order to stop the peace process. Arafat is a goon don't get me wrong but Sharon is a bigger monster.
There will be no peace until the whole place is paved over.
Both sides are fundie asshats.

Read any historical account of the British Mandate and the creation of Israel--the Palestinians got fvcked, bigtime, by the Western powers.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't exist, or that the Palestinians' demands are reasonable--we can't undo a century's worth of history with any action or policy. I'm just saying that there's a chain of events leading to all this, and you can't easily blame Israel or Palestine.

zionist (european jewish) settlement in palestine began around 1860. this wasn't a bloodless process, so surely the zionist settlers did suffer some losses. however to say that israel had soldiers in 1860 is fallacious... there was no israel in 1860. various zionist militias (stern gang, irgun, etc.) existed at the time, and these militias essentially became the israeli military (israeli "defense" forces as they are better known) when the israeli state was declared.

I think the asshat should be canned.

The Super Jews from the US and Canada...

Are they the same as "Jews in Space?"

/spaceballs

LexiLuthor,
"Isolationism is the key to our future!"

Amen Sister!!!! Preach on, Preach on!!!!

As any religious-brainwashed foaming-mouthed Zionist-NAZI would proclaim:

"Palestine or Palestinians do not exist."



So what's the big deal?

Funny how so few people even know why we support Israel. Doesn't stop the uninformed from spewing ignorant comments, though.

on a lighter note --

"...Ancient hatreds and modern weapons...now that's entertainment" - George Carlin

"Interestingly, a lot of Christians seem to have jumped on the pro-Israel bandwagon as well lately."

That's true among the hard-core evangelicals. They believe that the 2nd temple has to be rebuilt before Christ can return with the Rapture, etc.


-Never seen a bunch of people so anxious for the end of the world...

Netanyahu offered to conced to all of Arafat's demand except for the complete destruction of the state of Isreal

Uh, no he didn't. In fact, Israel is still violatig UN resolutions by not getting the fark out of dodge and the US is the co-conspirator. I'm not saying that the asshat suicide bombers are justified but neither are the ever-victim-playing Jews.

The answer is pretty simple. These arseholes are never going to make peace with each other and their weapons are getting better and better. So we as the West can either get out of their business, meaning stop funding Israel and leave the Middle East and all this terrorism will go away or continue to be Israel's lap dog/pit bull and let them drag us down with them. Those are the only two scenarios.

Can anyone tell me why we provide 3 billion dollars annually to a country whose intelligence agency has enough revenue pouring in from training and arming opposite sides of a conflict in African/Asian/South American countries, as well as conducting a lucrative drug trade?

Mynamebackwards

Funny how so few people even know why we support Israel. Doesn't stop the uninformed from spewing ignorant comments, though.

Ok I am all ears lay some knowledge on me.


I am not being a arse I would really like to know.

Amigajoe: Those evangelical christians are sure a strange group of clowns. Jesus was executed for exposing/protesting the corruption of the First jewish temple. And now these "christians" want that same temple rebuilt? WTF!?!?!

As much as I hate to bring this back on-topic....

You're landing at LAX. Pilot comes on and announces that you're now landing in occupied Aztlan. You've lived in LA all your life. You pissed off?

You're landing in Montreal. Pilot comes on and announces that you're about to land in "Montreal, Quebec...occupied by Canada since 1867". You're born and raised a Montreal Anglo. You pissed off?

Point is...pilot's job is to fly the plane. If he wants to make political commentary he should join the AP and leave piloting to those who know how to or are willing to follow procedure. ESPECIALLY in a volitile area like the middle east and ESPECIALLY since 9/11, in the words of Vince Vega, "he shoulda farking shoulda known better".

Albo, Jews in Space is from History of the World Part II.

Point of fact to MrNeturon...Jesus was around in the days of the SECOND temple. First temple was destroyed by the Babylonians. Jews to exile. Jews return from exile. Build second temple. Jesus happens. Romans eventually destroy second temple.

I had a kid introduce himself as being from palestine so i says to him "don't u mean israel??" and then he strapped a bomb to his chest and blew up

Bill_Wick's_Friend: Were the TWO previous temples located on the same ground?

"Jesus Happens", sounds like a good idea for a bumber sticker in a Mel Brooks movie.

Well, since they were arriving in Palestine, what's the problem?

You guys saying that evangelic Christians support Israel because they want the end of the world to come, are just spouting off complete bvllshiat made up by non-Christians. Evangelical Christians (me and most of my friends being some of them) tend to support Israel because evangelicals feel a close afinity with Jews. Jesus was a jew, many Christians believe Jews + chritians ( and not muslims ) worship the same God, and also the Bible says that 144,000 Jews will be saved and go to Heaven when the world ends. That being said, is why most evangelicals support the Jews, not because they really want the end of the world to come.

p.s. I am a Christian, and I dont support Israel's actions. They need to offer to withdraw to the 1967 borders in exchange for peace, which they have NEVER not ONCE done. If you think different, you do not know your history. I've studied the conflict in depth and ive come to the conclusion that about every 'fact' you can read, and every 'HISTORY' book is a biased POS written most of the time by Jews, and sometimes by extremely pro-Palestinian people. Its almost impossible to read extremely unbiased material on the conflict.

Does that pilot say "Welcome to Palestine" when he lands in Jordan, I wonder?

Mmmm, double standards.

05-08-03 01:46:49 PM MrNeutron

Bill_Wick's_Friend: Were the TWO previous temples located on the same ground?

If I suspend all rational thought....yes, they supposedly were both on the same spot near or right on where the dome of the rock is now.

Since I'm suspending rational thought, the slab that Jesus' body was lain upon after the crucifixion is right around the corner off Via Delorosa AND the spot from which Muhammed ascended to heaven is also right on the same spot.

1) they're all nutty believers in superstitious bull5hit, or
2) there's some cosmic gravity hole thingy right f8ucking THERE -- bigger than the one Arthur C Clarke lived in in Indonesia.

Discuss amoung yourselves. I actually do have some work to do today (ok...listening to a couple hundred CDs...but I gotta listen critically, eh?)

05-08-03 01:14:54 PM LordOfTheFlies
Point of fact a lot of nations don't recognize isreal as a country at all, the vatican city to name one.

Oh, like they're ones to talk ;-)

There is no reason to give $3 billion a year to Israel when it could go towards public education. Israel has lied to us over and over, they do not do what we ask them to do, they disrespect us and treat us like what we say doesnt matter. yet we continue to give them $3 billion a year, and the Muslim world hates us for it. Fark that. Cut them off. Zero bucks a year. Put the money somewhere else. let God protect them on his own.

-Stephen

LordOfTheFlies: Point of fact a lot of nations don't recognize isreal as a country at all, the vatican city to name one.

The countries who don't recognize Israel generally fall into one or more of four cateogories: Arab states. Terrorist states. Dictatorships. Theocracies.

Name me a democracy that doesn't recognize Israel.

GEAH:
I think I've discovered your problem. You can solve it by putting both hands under you, firmly grasping the stick, and pulling until it is completely free of your ass.

Repeat after me:
Criticizing the policies of a government does not make you anti-semitic.
Criticizing the murder of innocent civilians does not make you anti-semitic.

SuseJ: Its hard to take christians seriously.

Just trolling... disregaurd

LexiLuthor: They are psychotic, and impossible to negotiate with, therefore, why bother trying. Just let them do their thing (so long as it doesn't affect the US specifically), and they'll let us do ours.

Unfarkingbelievable!

Superoogie: Im absolutely sick of being called anti-sematic if you critisize Israeli's public policies or show the slightest sympathy for any of Israeli's enemies. It really shows what a lack of justification they have for what they do when their only response to critisism is 'shutup anti-semite!'

NutznGum, thanks for the clarification.

Attention people of Israel: A pilot for an Italian airline announced the wrong destination. He said Palestine when he should have sead Israel. Get the hell over it. This I command.

Superoogie
Repeat after me:
Criticizing the policies of a government does not make you anti-semitic.
Criticizing the murder of innocent civilians does not make you anti-semitic.

Sorry, Superoogie, but it's not that simple. The words, tone and context matter.

There's a huge difference between, "I think Israel should be more careful around civilians" and "Israel is a country of baby killers."

It's no different than American lefties who say, "America is a racist, sexist, homophobic country full of hatred. George Bush is a war criminal who is worse than Hitler," and then claim they're some sort of pro-American patriots.

Bullfark.

Pending, the 'problem' is that he didn't announce the wrong destination, he called it by a different name.

SuseJ: the Bible says that 144,000 Jews will be saved and go to Heaven when the world ends.

Do you have any idea how kooky that sounds to rational people?

Zero bucks a year. Put the money somewhere else. let God protect them on his own.


I don't think you're anti semitic.

I just think you're ignorant of the very recent history of the area. You would abandon allies in favour of those who happilly allied themselves with nazis, communists, dictators, al qaeda, abu nidal, qaddaffi and a whole assortment of the worst bunch of thugs in the world. "Why have these government always taken the side of America's enemies?" is the question you should be asking yourself, and why are you happy to take their side against israel. I'll assume it's not knee-jerk Jew hatred....so what is it? It's not the foreign aid because your post doesnt complain about aid to Egypt, Colombia and Palestine (the three of which combine to more than double what Israel gets in aid...not even considering that half of Israel's "aid" must be spent on US arms), so what is it?

05-08-03 12:50:24 PM Damn_Conservative_Media

Uh, I'm not so sure about that. It seems that the motivation for terrorism against the US vis-a-vis Al-Qaeda at least has more to do with our troops being in the middle east, particularly Saudi Arabia, than anything else. Our involvement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict also seems to be a factor.

Our support for Israel and our stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia are convenient excuses. To Muslim fundies, there is no greater affront to Allah than a secular lifestyle. For us to be rich and powerful while living a secular existence (while their fundamentalist societies live in illiteracy and poverty) tells them that we must be in league with the devil. Furthermore, their brand of spirituality has little to no relevance in our society. This also infuriates them. Even if we stayed within our own borders and there was no Israel, they would hate us. The fundamentalist Islamic clerics would still call for our death and destruction.

/threadjack

Let's see, a disembodied voice anounces to a group of Jews that they are now arriving into the land of Palestine.

If that had been written in the bible, it would have been interpreted "and God spoke unto thee".

GEAH:

No, it is that simple.

Criticizing the policies of a government does not make you anti-semitic.
Criticizing the murder of innocent civilians does not make you anti-semitic.

Period.

Any assumption otherwise is just a dead end of mudslinging to stifle debate, and, more likely than not, try to cover something up. And the fact remains that the presumption otherwise is being used daily to quell actual debate on Isreal's severely questionable policies the same way the "War on Terror" is being used by Ashcroft to justify historic strictures on liberty.

And those "lefties," as misguided and innaccurate as they may be, are being pro-American whether they want to be or not. The country was founded on dissident opinion. By voicing theirs, they are proving themselves wrong.

SuseJ: Its almost impossible to read extremely unbiased material on the conflict.

I agree with you on this.

So, I look at what's going on and look at it from my points of view:

Suicide bombers blowing up civilians = wrong

Bulldozing the houses of the supporters of suicide bombers = justified

Teaching your children to hate Jews = wrong

Allowing non-Jews to vote = right

Shooting at sniper behind complicit crowds = justifiable

Having a democratically elected leader = right

Having a non-elected leader = wrong

Setting up settlements in occupied lands = not justfiable

Expecting to get back lands you lost in a war you started = not justifiable

I add that all up, and I support Israel. The Palestinians need to do some serious soul searching.

Dickenscyder:

There is a famous quote attributed to Mark Twain, among others: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

You should really research a topic before forcing us all to wince at your ignorance. For a start, Peres is still alive; I can only assume you meant Rabin.

Secondly, the Israelis don't keep anyone in refugee camps. A little history...large amounts of the Jordanian Arabs who were living in Palestine left at the behest of the surrounding countries in 1948. At the time of Israel's formation, there was much talk of having a Jewish state and an Arab state, but the Arab countries refused, feeling the existence of any state not under Arab/Muslim rule in the area was anathema. Once the U.N. resolution declaring a state of Israel was passed, the surrounding countries all got together to drive out the infidels (who, btw, were not getting any military support from the U.S.). Before going in, they warned the Arab residents to leave in order to avoid the war, and they could return once the Jews were kicked out. That was the origin of the refugee camps, since none of the surrounding nations wanted the "Palestinian" Arabs living in their countries. Many others left to live in these camps after they were driven out in the wars of 1948 and 1967, and others left to live in different countries. However....Israel does nothing to administer these camps and does not force the ones in them to remain there.
The birth of Zionism, with Herzl and others in the latter 19th century, was part of a vision to have Jews live in a country where they weren't subject to persecution by other nations...mostly European pogroms. There was a large Jewish exodus from Russia in the 1880s, with many coming to the U.S., some to other European countries, and few to Palestine (then under Ottoman rule). The atrocities of the Nazis asserted the need for such a state, and allowed for many of the European nations to agree to its formation and charter, mainly due to their own guilt in their complicity with the Holocaust.

The businesses and jobs you mention as "taken away" are because of measures to stop or at least reduce the terrorism. Have a lot of innocents suffered? Yes, and unfortunately more of them will. However, what doesn't get discussed are all of the Israelis who have lost businesses and jobs secondary to terrorist attacks, both directly and due to the marked decrease in tourism to the area with the latest uprising.

Get your facts straight before diminishing your own point through your ignorance. Otherwise you risk being mistaken for a journalist ;)

05-08-03 12:54:34 PM BritneysSpeculum

Dr.Jones
Zionist: Abraham founded this place, and it belongs to us, his ancestors!
Muslim: Abraham founded this place, and it belongs to us, his ancestors!
..There's your rational explanation right there.

Doc, you have aptly summarized the issue. I bow before you.

/bowing

That is, all except for the incorrect use of the word "ancestors".

/grammar nazi

Superoogie: And those "lefties," as misguided and innaccurate as they may be, are being pro-American whether they want to be or not. The country was founded on dissident opinion. By voicing theirs, they are proving themselves wrong.

While they may demonstrate the greatness of America because we allow people who hate our country to be open and vocal about it, it does not make them any more pro-American than a Klansman who says, "America sucks because we let n!ggers vote."

BillWerksFriend: "Egypt, Colombia and Palestine (the three of which combine to more than double what Israel gets in aid..."

Thats a flat out lie. Furthermore, I am educated in history and I know exactly why we support Israel. The excuse that, 'We support Israel because they fight our enemies' is a downright propagandic lie. Israel CREATES our enemies. Perhaps Al-Queda might not have liked America if we didnt support Israel, but 9/11 would never have happened. Our support of Israel causes us to have enemies, sucks billions of dollars of taxpayers money every year and there is no good reason to do it.

Im not saying that Israeli's are bad or shouldnt have their own country. I simply think they we should withdraw ALL foreign aid to them until they withdraw to the 1967 borders and aid Palestine into becoming a recognized state.

GEAH : "Do you have any idea how kooky that sounds to rational people?"

It does not matter how kooky it sounds, it is simply an explanation for why Bible-believing evangelicals feel an afinity for Jews. In fact, many Evangelicals would say they share a more close spiritual bond with Jews than even with Catholics.

Dracanulus: The Jews never wanted a 'Jewish/Arab' state during the Zionist movement. They have always pushed for their own state since World War I. That is the root cause of the conflict if you go back far enough, is the _JEWS_ unwilligness to share the land with the Arabs. The Jews were seen as outsiders and wanted a land to call their own. The Jews wanted a land where it was almost all Jews, from the leaders down to the theives and beggars. The Jews did not want to share the land they were moving too, that is the cause of the conflict. Not that Arabs have some instinctual hatred for them.

-Stephen

Im not saying that Israeli's are bad or shouldnt have their own country. I simply think they we should withdraw ALL foreign aid to them until they withdraw to the 1967 borders and aid Palestine into becoming a recognized state.

A little quiz for you, SuseJ. Why wasn't there a Palestinian state in 1966? What happened in 1967 to change the borders? What assurance can you give Israel that what happened in 1967 won't happen again? If Israel agreed to 1967 borders, would you agree to have the US guarantee those borders, with force, if necessary?

Remember this: Democracy does NOT equal freedom.

The KKK democratically elects its leaders. So do many hate groups/terrorist organizations/cults/corporate boards/religious whacko governments.

Don't EVER confuse democracy with FREEDOM, especially when used in context with a religiously fanatic militaristic country.

That is the root cause of the conflict if you go back far enough, is the _JEWS_ unwilligness to share the land with the Arabs.

This is 100%, pure, unadulterated bullfark, SuseJ.

Arabs in Israel have more rights than Arabs in any Arab county!!!

MrNeutron - "Jesus was executed for exposing/protesting the corruption of the First jewish temple."

Whoa, did you just make that up? That's pretty good. No historical or scriptural basis, but it really sounds convincing. You should be a scriptwriter for Friends or something.

Heres a little history for you GEAH. In 1967 we have the Israel leader on videotape telling America that Israel does not want ANY land. That they will not take up any land for their own because they 'allready have too much than they can handle'. 3 days later, they attack in a pre-emptive strike, and take over TONS of extra land. They then exchange some back with Egypt for peace. And they have had that peace with Egypt ever since. They have never, not once, offered all the land back to the Palestinians in exchange for peace, because they are greedy and want to keep some of the land they took.

to answer your question: Yes. If Israel withdrew to 1967 borders and then they still got attacked, I would support us defending them fully.

-Stephen

Right on, GrymReeper. One of the problems most westerners really fail to understand is this is only partially a political struggle for the Palestinians. There's equally intense religious pressure from the fundie Arab/Islamic clerics as there is political pressure from the potentates of the region on Arafat and the Palestinians to never come to a settelement. This conflict between Jew and Arab is relatively modern - Jews lived in the Caliphate regions for centuries with little problem.

Yes, both groups have inhabited the region for millenia, but why then did Jew and Arab live in relative peace next to one another until WWI? Find an answer to that and you might be able to find a workable solution to this problem.

GEAH - "SuseJ: the Bible says that 144,000 Jews will be saved and go to Heaven when the world ends.
Do you have any idea how kooky that sounds to rational people?"

99.99% of all people are rational. It means we make excuses/rationalize. It doesn't mean you're right. There are people that say they can kill bums because they won't affect anything. Normal to them. Kooky to me. You calling something kooky means nothing to the rest of us, just like calling yourself rational.

05-08-03 02:21:26 PM SuseJ


Israel CREATES our enemies. Perhaps Al-Queda might not have liked America if we didnt support Israel, but 9/11 would never have happened.

Another naive appologist for murdering fanatics rears their head.

GEAH: "That is the root cause of the conflict if you go back far enough, is the _JEWS_ unwilligness to share the land with the Arabs.

This is 100%, pure, unadulterated bullfark, SuseJ."

You dont know your history. you dont know the reasoning behind the Zionist movement. The whole point of the Zionist movement was to secure a country that was JEWISH. That was almost completely Jewish from head to toe. They never, not once had the inclination to share the land with the Palestinians that were there for hundreds of years. Their motivations from DAY ONE, were make the country a Jewish Israel. Learn your history

-Stephen

Ayeroxor: Didn't Jesus storm into the temple and attack the money changers? Didn't Jesus enter the gates of Jerusalem riding an ass, which the Jews believed would be how their REAL mesiah would come?

GrymReeper: you disagree? You think Al-Quedas attack on us had absolutely NOTHING to do with Israel? Oh yeah, thats right, i forgot. your theory must be that they are possed by evil demons and just want to kill the good americans. Right dude.

9/11 - wouldnt have happened without our support for Israel

care to prove me wrong?

-Stephen

05-08-03 02:30:42 PM GEAH


Arabs in Israel have more rights than Arabs in any Arab county!!!

This is not only a true statement, but it is something else which drives the Musslim fundies crazy.

Dracunculus,

I always confuse the 2 good leaders of Israel however the fact remains that a Jew destroyed the peace process and the Israeli government policy is responsible for the Palestinians rising up again. Warsaw Ghetto=Ramallah. And by your argument everything Hitler did was justified then. If you keep a people down and not even let them fight they will resort to terrorism. The European/American Jews have no right to settle in the Middle East. Racially they are not semitic and thusly do not belong there. Go back to sleep in your coffin, you undead sumbiatch. Israel is in the wrong and can't admit and are too greedy to give anything back to anyone. If the us pulls its support Israel can't survive bottom line. Zionism is jewish nazism. If the Jews are indeed a chosen race, God chose them to get their asses kicked since the dawn of time until the end of days. Nobody likes whiny duplicious sanctimonious religious nuts!!

As I have steadfastly maintained PAVE THE FARKIN PLACE!!

Both sides are troglodites and I for one, am sick of their shiat. Let them kill each other until no one is left. All I want is a fair fight.

They have never, not once, offered all the land back to the Palestinians in exchange for peace, because they are greedy and want to keep some of the land they took.

SuseJ, please try to follow. There is no land to give "back to the Palestinians" because it wasn't theirs. If Syria and Jordan want the land back, let them negotiate for it.

Handing over Syrian and Jordanian land to a third party after the war--a third party the Syrians and Jordanians oppressed, BTW--is not going to fly.

I can't prove you wrong, Stephen. I don't have a time machine. My contention is that, even without Israel in the equation, Musslim fundies would be calling for our destruction and that there would still be murdering fanatics aplenty to take up the jehad. Go back and read my earlier posts.

Ive got to go catch a plane. Flame on, y'all!

SuseJ--
"In fact, many Evangelicals would say they share a more close spiritual bond with Jews than even with Catholics."

Rofl, I guess that jsut goes to show how flat out stupid and ignorant the Evangelicals are. Catholicism is Christian. Judaism is not. Maybe it's the cash flow that makes Evangelicals feel that way because the Catholics aren't giving them their cash. Most all Christian denominations are deviations from Cahtolicism.

You dont know your history. you dont know the reasoning behind the Zionist movement. The whole point of the Zionist movement was to secure a country that was JEWISH. That was almost completely Jewish from head to toe. They never, not once had the inclination to share the land with the Palestinians that were there for hundreds of years. Their motivations from DAY ONE, were make the country a Jewish Israel. Learn your history.

Arabs farking vote in Israel, SuseJ. Tell me what Arab countries Arabs can vote in. Tell me what Arab countries Arabs can't vote in.

Israel was created as a safe haven for Jews who had been nearly exterminated on the European continent. It's too bad that was necessary, but that doesn't change history. There were 3.3 million Jews in Poland in 1938. Wanna guess how many are there were in 1945 before the concentration camps were liberated? Try a few thousand.

zionism sucks ass.

GEAH: Arabs in the occupied territories cannot vote. Thats why Israel keeps the terroritories occupied and does not annex them. Israel knows that if they annex Palestine, all the Jewish leaders would be voted outed of office by all the new Arab citizens. So Israel continued to militarily occupy thousands of people, not letting them become their own country or even part of Israel. Thats not a democracy.

-Stephen

Dickenscyder

Phrases like Zionism is Jewish Nazism and Warsaw Ghetto = Ramallah negate any argument you want to make.

Sharon may be a right wing war-loving hawk....but if he were a Nazi (or if he behaved like those benevolent arab neighbours of his) he'd have murdered every "problematic" palestinian first chance he got. He certainly has the power and ability. You toss "nazi" around like it's "doodiehead" and it buries any rational argument you wish to make.

I don't know why everyone is so sympathetic towards Israel. If there is one thing for which they are well known, is witholding intelligence, costing the lives of informants, allies and numerous innocents who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Does anyone recall the truck bomb in Beruit that cost the lives of 200+ marines during the Reagan era? Israeli intelligence knew about it, but didn't inform us; what a fine ally we have. Hell, Denmark thinks that the Mossad is open with them with their intelligence, because they had saved so many Jews during the holocaust, and even provide them with free access to gathered intelligence. But, the Mossad doesn't respond in kind. I use Israel & Mossad interchangably, because it is the one agency that answers only to the Prime minister who grants them carte blanche to "protect Israel". For purposes of plausable deniability, Israeli prime ministers prefer not to be informed of Mossad operations. Israel is it's own worst enemy.

SuseJ--

1. "Arabs in the occupied territories cannot vote."

Because they are not a part of Israel. I don't want Mexicans or Canadians voting in American government either.

2. "Thats why Israel keeps the terroritories occupied and does not annex them."

Incorrect, they keep them occupied because the Palestinians keep sending people over to blow themselves and a tens of Israels up with them.

3. "Israel knows that if they annex Palestine, all the Jewish leaders would be voted outed of office by all the new Arab citizens."

Also incorrect. If they annexed those (it's not Palestine) territories the rest of the middle east would want to wage war on them again and cause a lot more problems. Second, Israel doesn't want the terrirtories because they don't want to continue supporting them.

4. "So Israel continued to militarily occupy thousands of people, not letting them become their own country or even part of Israel. Thats not a democracy."

That's right, it's not. Not because of Israel though. It's because they've stuck to Arafat and didn't want to form a real government of their own. Israel has not interfered with Palestinian internal government. They Palestinians have been free to do as they wished in that department. The fault is their own. Israel cannot force a government upon them.

Stoke: Israel doesnt want the land? RIIGHT. just like they didnt want the land when they attacked Egypt in 1967. lol


"Because they are not a part of Israel. I don't want Mexicans or Canadians voting in American government either."

We havnt been militarily occupying Mexico for almost 40 years have we?

Your statement about the rest of the Arab countries waging war on Israel if they annexed the rest of the Palestinian states is a blatant lie. The rest of the arab states wouldnt mind, and Palestine wouldnt mind. If they annexed all of Palestine, Sharon would be voted out of office and replaced with an Arab. If they were a true democracy they do one of 2 things, 1) get the fark out of the occupied territories or 2) annex them.

Conclusion: Make the occupied territories part of Israel, or get the fark out. By militarily occuping the land they took in the 1967 war they are bringing this shiatstorm upon themselves and are not innocent

-Stephen

GEAH "There is no land to give "back to the Palestinians" because it wasn't theirs."

Tell that to the tens of thousands of Palestinian farmers that have been pushed off their land since 1945. If my family lived on a plot of land for generations and suddenly a bunch of radicals told me to leave because they were creating a "jewish state" I'd be more than pissed.

Don't label/associate all palestinians with terrorists either. Like most people, the majority of them just want to have a decent, peaceful life.

Dear lord, is this thread still going on?

Bill_Wick's_Friend

Phrases like Zionism is Jewish Nazism and Warsaw Ghetto = Ramallah negate any argument you want to make.


To a point, sure. Most people are just throwing those words around for affect and have no idea what they're talking about, but saying that they are completely innaccurate is also false.

There are great deal of Zionists who want a racially pure state, and their policy of occupying the land of others sounds familiar. The Isreali government is guilty of promoting ghettos and of using *some* of the same practices as the Nazis: collective guilt and torture, for example.

Sadly because I have to: I do not think the current Isreali government is as bad as the German Nazi regime. Isreal has the most democratic government in the Middle East, but it in no way excuses their excesses.

And before anyone decides to jump on the last paragraph, I am not sad because Isreal isn't as bad as the Nazis. I'm sad because I have to spell that out to avoid the automatic anti-semite label.

Theigor: "Tell that to the tens of thousands of Palestinian farmers that have been pushed off their land since 1945."

Actually its been going on since World War I. The Jews instituted a practice called 'Histadrut' in which they wanted everyone in their society to be Jewish. So they used their money to buy businesses owned and operated by Arabs. They then fired every Arab worker. They bought huge chunks of land from landowners and kicked off every single Arab living on the land.

Sure would make me pissed if some foreign farker moved over to my country and fired me and then kicked me out of my home.

No job + no home + no belongings creates a situation where some very very pissed off people will do some very stupid things. Like I said, theyve brought this shiatstorm upon themselves.

05-08-03 12:42:49 PM LexiLuthor

TheReject: All the more reason why we should just pull out and leave them to their own business. Let them prove that they can defend themselves. Make them fight for the country that they didn't actually win for themselves in the first place. Not saying they don't have a right to it, but simply stating they should defend it if it is truly theirs.

Maybe Israel will take over the Middle East, maybe the Palestinians will, I personally don't give a shiat. The US shouldn't be worrying about it all that much either. I've said it before and I'll say it again: IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM!

So I guess we should have just let Hitler roll over Europe during WWII then? After all we were attacked by Japan not Germany.

SuseJ - sadly Israel is still promoting policies to push Palestinians off their land. Israel allows settlers to harrass and attack peaceful Palestinian villages. The villagers either abandon their farms or fight back and get their a$$ kicked by the IDF - the results the same.

This New York Times article describes the process.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/21/international/middleeast/21MIDE.html&OQ=exQ3 D1035777600Q26enQ3D4809e906bb947f60Q26eiQ3D5062Q26partnerQ3DGOOGLE

Absolutben: Actually Germany declared war on us, not the other way around. We only declared war on Japan for overtly attacking us, which was justified. Germany declared war on us, they were therefore a specific threat, we showed them who was boss, highly justifiable. Not that I support Hitler or his actions, but they were none of our business until he made it our business.

Yep. Funny thing is, despite us giving them $3 billion a year, the ONE thing we ask them to do, to Stop their settlements, they ignore us completely. I also dont think it should be considered 'innocent civilians' killed when someone on a settlement gets shot by a Palestinian. Your not an innocent civilian if you are invading somebody elses land

-Stephen

SuseJ: Arabs in the occupied territories cannot vote. Thats why Israel keeps the terroritories occupied and does not annex them. Israel knows that if they annex Palestine, all the Jewish leaders would be voted outed of office by all the new Arab citizens. So Israel continued to militarily occupy thousands of people, not letting them become their own country or even part of Israel. Thats not a democracy.

With every post, you get farther and farther out there.

1. Who let's people in occupied lands vote in that country's elections? Did we let the Japanese and Germans vote in US elections?

2. Israel didn't take away anyone's right to vote. Not a single Palestinian voted in a Syrian, Jordanian or Egyptian election.

3. Who in the Palestian leadership was voted in by Palestinians? Arafat doesn't let his own people vote for him. Why should Israel let Palestinians vote in their elections.


When people persist with irrational arguments against Israel, I re-evaluate their claims that they aren't anti-Semitic. Especially when they blame Jews for everything and sometimes capitalize JEWS for emphasis.

Oh, did the JEWS kill your Mr. Christ? Is that what you're mad about? You're no different from the other religious kooks.

The key to peace in the middle east? Casinos.

You don't see american indians blowing the crap out of 7/11s. Why? Casinos.

/nuttin

SuseJ--
"Stoke: Israel doesnt want the land? RIIGHT. just like they didnt want the land when they attacked Egypt in 1967. lol"

They attacked everyone around them in 1967. Why? Because they were gearing up for war against Israel. Israel took the land to deprive Egypt of it's use in any future conflicts. If Israel wanted to keep the land, the Palestinians wouldn't be sitting on it right now.

"We havnt been militarily occupying Mexico for almost 40 years have we?"

Actually it's been over 100. Or, do you consider Texas as still belinging to Mexico? Do Mexicans send in people to blow up our civilians? Some big differences. If Mexico was sending in people to suicide bomb us you can most assuredly count on us taking up residence in Mexico where we feel the bombers were coming from. Two planes got dropped on the WTC and we took out an entire country for it because it's government couldn't reign them in. I would pity Mexico for the hell that would be unleashed on them if they did something similar.

"Your statement about the rest of the Arab countries waging war on Israel if they annexed the rest of the Palestinian states is a blatant lie."

Not exactly. Israel could easily annex those territories and evict every single Palestinian on them. Where would they go? To Jordan, Egypt, and Syria... the countries to which all their families originally belonged prior to 1967.
Now, would that piss off the Arab countries or wouldn't it? If Israel annexed that land, they would indeed, have the right to do whatever they wished with it.

Thanks for illuminating my point on Zionism/Nazism. Israel should behave better especially when they are constantly reminding everyone about the Holocaust. Sharon's government wants to exterminate all arabs but knows they can't get away with it. The Mossad will kill anyone who aids the Arab cause. Gerald Bull for instance. Israel has been ignoring UN sanctions since they first printed them. Israel isn ot a democracy it is a theocracy with voting rights. Israel goes through governments like the Italians.

Again, Super Jews stay home. Israel is not your homeland. You are American or European. Stay there. Stop being so obstanate. You are wrong sometimes and just because we disagree doesn't make me any semitic and chance are you are not semitic anyways.

Pave the Middle East.

Since this thread is degenerating into WWII history, may i ask a loaded question:

in the years between 1939 invasion of poland and the 1941 entry of the usa into the war, did the french, english, belgians and dutch call American Cheeze "freedom cheese"? Did they rename the American Beauty rose the "freedom flower"?

Did anyone come up with the phrase "coca cola drinking surrender monkeys?"

SuseJ,

Actually, Congress gave Israel a bonus this year. I'm not sure why. So, total US aid will be over $12 billion now.

Congress approves an extra $9billion for Israel

"Did anyone come up with the phrase "coca cola drinking surrender monkeys?"

In order for this scenario to hold true, you would have to equate saddam with hitler and show that the US was actively fighting to stop those countries from removing him.

Arafat was elected President of the Palestinian Authority in January 1996.


were any jewish israelis allowed to vote in that election?

Bill_Wick's_Friend: Since this thread is degenerating into WWII history, may i ask a loaded question:

in the years between 1939 invasion of poland and the 1941 entry of the usa into the war, did the french, english, belgians and dutch call American Cheeze "freedom cheese"? Did they rename the American Beauty rose the "freedom flower"?

Did anyone come up with the phrase "coca cola drinking surrender monkeys?"

I'm sure you know the differences.

1. We didn't try to tell the English, et al, to not fight the Germans.

2. We supplied the English. These days, the French supply Iraq.

If we had been involved pre-'39, things would have been a fark of a lot different.

We've learned. 9/11 taught us another lesson about waiting to be attacked.

05-08-03 02:35:31 PM SuseJ

You dont know your history.

Pot=Kettle
you dont know the reasoning behind the Zionist movement.

Judging by your responses, neither do you.

The whole point of the Zionist movement was to secure a country that was JEWISH. That was almost completely Jewish from head to toe. They never, not once had the inclination to share the land with the Palestinians that were there for hundreds of years.

NO PERSON CALLING THEMSELVES PALESTINIAN WAS THERE FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS YOU BLIND IGNORANT TOOL.

Zionism is:

The rightous return of jews to their homeland. Not "kick everybody out whos in the way and create a jewish country.

Arabs who have been living in the land for hundreds of years STILL LIVE IN THE SAME LAND. They are the non-violent arabs, who do not label themselves Palestinian. They are Israeli citizens, hold places in government, and have more rights than any arab or jew would have in countless arab countries around the region.

There are too many ignorant people in this thread for me.

Stoke: Your analogy to Texas and Mexico is downright retarded. Texas isnt militarily occupied. Their arnt hundreds of thousands of Mexicans living in Texas with no citizenship, under curfew, getting shot in the head if they go outside after 9pm. Nice try at an analogy, but its the worst one ive seen in a while.

GEAH: Why would any Christian be mad at the Jews for killing Jesus? Without Jesus's death, salvation wouldn't be possible, the Jews killing him was a good thing. So your argument about Christians 'angry' with Jews because they killed Jesus is pretty stupid, I probably wouldnt repeat it if I were you.

-Stephen

From Theigorway articel: "The guarantees are to be given in three installments over a three year period, at a rate of interest linked to the U.S. government bonds on the day of issue."

Looks like an additional 3 billion per years for 3 years, and as a loan, with interest, to be paid back.

BritneysSpeculum: Point of correction. Arafat was elected President of the Palestinian Authority in January 1996.

Heh...he got 85% of the vote. Not quite Saddam's 100% or Castro's 99%, but not bad for a newbie dictator holding "elections".

Why would any Christian be mad at the Jews for killing Jesus? Without Jesus's death, salvation wouldn't be possible, the Jews killing him was a good thing. So your argument about Christians 'angry' with Jews because they killed Jesus is pretty stupid, I probably wouldnt repeat it if I were you.

Oh, yeah, SuseJ, thanks for the tip.

BigAl: Too bad you completely ignore the fact that during the Zionist movement they did everything they could to make sure that their 'homeland' was all Jewish. They are the first instigators of the conflict. They came in, and attempted to kick out as many Arabs as possible and create their own state.

Im not saying that the Palestinians are right. I dont support them any more than I support the Isreli's. But blind loyalty to Israeli is retarded because A) they dont deserve it and B) they dont even respect us.

You have to come to a moderate conclusion in the conflict, which is Israel withdrawing to its 1967 borders, and Palestine becomming its own state. That is not too much to ask.

There are too many ignorant people in this thread for me.

C'mon, BigAl, this is Fark, after all.

05-08-03 03:37:30 PM Dickenscyder

Sharon's government wants to exterminate all arabs but knows they can't get away with it.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

The Mossad will kill anyone who aids the Arab cause.

If, by "arab cause", you mean destroy israel and kill all the jews, then sure, the Mossad stops any arabs from aiding terrorists.

Gerald Bull for instance. Israel has been ignoring UN sanctions since they first printed them.

These are not UN Sanctions, these are UN Resolutions which are non-binding (ie they are suggestions, not demands). Tool.

Israel isn ot a democracy it is a theocracy with voting rights. Israel goes through governments like the Italians.

Whats your point? By your standards, the US is a theocracy as well, because they go through so many governments. Get a clue man, arabs have full rights, as well as jews in Israel. I know it pisses you off to see that arabs are more free in Israel than they would be living in Saudi Arabia for example.


Again, Super Jews stay home. Israel is not your homeland. You are American or European. Stay there. Stop being so obstanate. You are wrong sometimes and just because we disagree doesn't make me any semitic and chance are you are not semitic anyways.

Europeans. Stop coming to America, it isn't your home. I don't care if some of your relatives settled there in the 1700s. Or if you want to make a better life for yourself. DONT GO ANYWHERE UNLESS I, Dickenscyder WANT YOU TO LIVE THERE. /sarcasm

Pave the Middle East.

Good thinking! How about we start by returning the United States to its rightious owners, the native Americans. Will you be willing to move? Yeah, thats what I thought.

Shut........UP,

I don't know if it is true, but I have read that the US has forgiven most or all loans to Israel.

I'd be interested if anyone has more information about Israels history of repayment.

05-08-03 03:45:07 PM SuseJ

GEAH: Why would any Christian be mad at the Jews for killing Jesus?

Why don't you ask the Pope and his followers the reason. I think they just "forgave" the jews a few years ago for killing jesus, and finally accepted the country of Israel.

Britneys: dont try to hijack the thread with a debate over W. =P that isnt even a debate. Who's fault is it that W was elected.. lets see.

1) people who wrote the constitution

2) Supreme Court who ruled in favor of Bush

3) People who votede for Bush

4) and Ralph Nader. Bush won by 400 votes in Florida. Nader got 90,000 in Florida. Undoubtedly Bush would have lost Florida if not for Nader.


Im just sick of people blaming the repubs or bush for rigging the election, if you want to blame someone, blame the supreme court, blame nader, blame the constitution, blame the people who voted for Bush. but dont blame bush, thats just ignorant

-Stephen

BritneysSpeculum: I think that Sharon did just a little bit better than that in his last election.

Point of correction. Sharon got about 63% of the vote, not more than 85%.

SuseJ--

Then you shouldn't have asked the question, "We havnt been militarily occupying Mexico for almost 40 years have we?"

You still fail to acknowledge the Palestinians blowing the hell out of Israelis as justification for occupying their lands. My comparison to Mexico lies in that realm. If they were sending in suicide bombers, we would indeed, be occupying Mexico right now.

"Their arnt hundreds of thousands of Mexicans living in Texas with no citizenship..."

Rofl, you haven't been to Houston have you?

"...under curfew, getting shot in the head if they go outside after 9pm."

Well, stop sending suicide bombers aand that might get eased up on. Every time the Israelis back out of an area the Palestinians go blow more Israelis up. It almost seems that they want the Israelis there.

Israelis occupy land... hardly any bombs. Israelis back out... they get bombed daily.

Doesn't take a f'n genius to figure out what keeps the bombs from going off with that pattern.

SuseJ

I dont intend this to be an ad hominum attack on you personally but I find your beliefs to be distasteful, misinformed and generally facetious and ill formed. Stoke had done an excellent job in pointing out the obvious flaws in your reasoning and it is my hope that you listen to what he has to say rather than simply dismissing it out of hand.

Dickenscyder

Your rhetoric is simply ignorant. Im not sure I can put it any other way. Israel is not, and let me repeat that, is not a theocracy. It has a variety of political parties that go from radical to reactionary to orthodox to secular in regards to religious beliefs. As for this misinformed belief that Sharon wants to participate in genocide is probably one of the stupidest things Ive read all day. You and persons holding this same said belief will have to remove the desire to crack down on Palestinian insurgents from mass genocidal ideals. Civilians may get in the way, but terrorism is a nasty dirty business on both ends, from committing acts of terrorism to removing terrorists. Especially when these terrorists have ingrained themselves into a civilian population that identifies with these individuals.

As for this idea of the Super Jew, I find it and entirely disgusting idea to identify some persons of the Jewish faith as somehow being Super. As a matter of fact it reminds me of the particular beliefs of Goering who saw the same said Super Jew as an agent against the fascist regime in Germany. Am I calling you a Nazi though? No. Instead Ill accept the fact that you are prejudiced.

Jeeeebus...I was only kidding.

(must... resist.... urge to ask about ford and bush families supporting the nazis pre-39....)

Big Al, regarding your statement, "Arabs have full rights, as well as jews in Israel." I'm not sure I believe it.

Besides the difficulty of living in a nation with a very active state religion, there is a lot of evidence that Israeli Arabs face frequent discrimination in housing, jobs, and education.

05-08-03 03:48:44 PM SuseJ

BigAl: Too bad you completely ignore the fact that during the Zionist movement they did everything they could to make sure that their 'homeland' was all Jewish. They are the first instigators of the conflict. They came in, and attempted to kick out as many Arabs as possible and create their own state.

Completely wrong. The Arabs were the ones trying to keep the jews from moving back to the territory of Palestine, way before WWII even happened. There was a civil war going on between arabs, jews, and British soldiers until the British moved their troops out. Learn history, stop reading it from arabnews.com

Im not saying that the Palestinians are right. I dont support them any more than I support the Isreli's. But blind loyalty to Israeli is retarded because A) they dont deserve it and B) they dont even respect us.

Respect America? Why would Israel respect America? The US has done nothing privately but sabatoge the peace processes, sell arms to arab terrorists, train and support them, buying oil and selling out to the arabs over their so called Allies, Israel.

You have to come to a moderate conclusion in the conflict, which is Israel withdrawing to its 1967 borders, and Palestine becomming its own state. That is not too much to ask.

Newsflash = Israel gave back land to Jordan and Egypt. Jordan and Egypt refused to allow Palestinians to move back. And you continue to blame just Israel for this... classic.

Stoke: Dude, you need to learn how to think.

"If they were sending in suicide bombers, we would indeed, be occupying Mexico right now."

So, your justifying Israeli's occupation because of the suicide bobmers.

to bad they were occupying decades before the suicide bombers started.

Sorry, try again

-Stephen

"We feel this is a subtle but obvious attack on Islam."

well, which one is it, subtle or obvious?

05-08-03 03:52:46 PM SuseJ

Im just sick of people blaming the repubs or bush for rigging the election, if you want to blame someone, blame the supreme court, blame nader, blame the constitution, blame the people who voted for Bush. but dont blame bush, thats just ignorant

1. Texas and Florida created a list of "cons and ex-cons" to be excluded from voting. Problem is, the list was deliberately exaggerated to exclude people who never even went to jail from voting.

2. The Supreme Court justices who wanted to retire soon, wanted to retire under a Conservative Administration, so their replacements could be Conservative as well.

There are tons more evidence linking W and his goons and family to rigging the election. You just have to look for it. The BBC did a whole TV show about it a while ago. But of course, the US media refused to air it.

"minority voters who were incorrectly denied their right to vote."

explain please

Big Al: "Respect America? Why would Israel respect America? The US has done nothing privately but sabatoge the peace processes, sell arms to arab terrorists, train and support them, buying oil and selling out to the arabs over their so called Allies, Israel"


Huh? I hope that is sarcasm. Israel has no better friend in the world than the US.

Oh yeah, and

3. Write in military votes were counted even though the dates were far past the deadline to send them in. Of course, most of these votes are for Republicans. (even though Bush is going to cut funding to the Veterans, people still are brainwashed into believing only Republicans care about the military)

05-08-03 03:54:44 PM Theigorway


Big Al, regarding your statement, "Arabs have full rights, as well as jews in Israel." I'm not sure I believe it.

Besides the difficulty of living in a nation with a very active state religion, there is a lot of evidence that Israeli Arabs face frequent discrimination in housing, jobs, and education.

Discrimination is apart of life everywhere in the world. But that has nothing to do with RIGHTS GRANTED BY LAW IN THE COUNTRY OF ISRAEL. I don't care if you believe it or not, its whats going on. Educate yourself or stay the fark out of these arguments (this goes to SuseJ and too many other people to list)

05-08-03 03:58:54 PM Theigorway

Huh? I hope that is sarcasm. Israel has no better friend in the world than the US.

Most citizens and politicians are friends of Israel. Conservatives, the CIA, and the military are definately not friends of Israel and the Mossad.

BritneysSpeculum: You might also add Jeb Bush to your list given the concerted effort undertaken to purge voters in predominently democratic counties, which resulted in a substantial number of minority voters who were incorrectly denied their right to vote.

I take it you're referring to the fact that in predominately black, Democrat-run precincts that the rate of "spoiled" Republican ballots was triple that of the Democrat ballots.

Try as you might, I don't think you can hang that on ol' Jeb.

Notoriousjjp:
By "SuperJew," I believe he is referring to ultra-conservative orthodox Jews who are immigrating to Isreal (especially the occupied territories) and bloating a right-wing voting block.

Using the "SuperJew" name is just another unfortunate case of loaded language clouding a legitimate issue that is lost in the endless vitriol.

There are tons more evidence linking W and his goons and family to rigging the election. You just have to look for it. The BBC did a whole TV show about it a while ago. But of course, the US media refused to air it.

Hey, BigAl, no one aired it because they realize Americans don't give a fark what a few Brits think of how we run our elections.

Big Al,

Why try to tar me as uneducated/uninformed for bringing up the issue of discrimination? "full legal rights" on paper don't mean Palestinians gets a fair hearing.

I'm sure most Israelis would concede that Israeli Arabs aren't treated as full citizens if they were being candid.

Big Al: "Most citizens and politicians are friends of Israel. Conservatives, the CIA, and the military are definately not friends of Israel and the Mossad."

Expand on this and provide facts/links. I'm interested.

BigAl:
But that has nothing to do with RIGHTS GRANTED BY LAW IN THE COUNTRY OF ISRAEL.

Don't be ignorant. It has *everything* to do with it. Blacks in the Reconstruction South technically had the same rights as whites on paper, but if it is not being enforced, it means nothing. Palestinians are second-class citizens in Isreal. There's no factual way to deny that reality.

05-08-03 04:05:34 PM Theigorway

Big Al,

Why try to tar me as uneducated/uninformed for bringing up the issue of discrimination? "full legal rights" on paper don't mean Palestinians gets a fair hearing.

Because you didn't bring up the issue of discrimination. You brought up the issue that you think arabs don't have the same rights as jews. Which is completely un-true. While discrimination is still alive and well in America, you can't say blacks don't have the same rights as whites. Its just that there are some backwards hatefilled people IN ALL PLACES OF THE EARTH.

BigAl- "Educate yourself or stay the fark out of these arguments (this goes to SuseJ"

Im educated, I know what happened between Israel and Palestine. Your disagreements with mine are unconvincing. I say Israel needs to withdraw to 1967 borders, you respond with they allready gave land back to egypt and Jordan. So? Theyve never offered 100% of the land they took back. They need to give back EVERY square inch they took in the 1967 war. I dont support adding terrority to your country through invasion.

We also seem to differ on our 'definition' of the Zionist movement. You seem to completely ignore the fact that from 1898-1948, long before Israel was a country, Israeli's threw the first blow with their policy of Histadrut. Thats not made up. I didnt get it from www.ihatejews.com. Its a fact. The Israeli's used their money to buy large pieces of land and kick out everyone there that was living in their homes. They bought businesses and fired every arab worker. Fact. This is before the Arabs ever did anything to the Jews. Can you adrress this specifically? Its important, because it is the root of the conflict.

SuseJ--

And you need to keep up with current events.

Israel did pull out per the Oslo accords. It wasn't until recently they began cracking down on the Palestinians again. Israel is wrong with their settlements in these areas but it doesn't justify the bombings.

Palestians weren't under curfew and having their houses run into the ground until they went ape-shiat over an Israeli official visiting a shrine that was of significance to both Jews and muslims. It was that fiasco that spiraled out of control into the current mess. Do you really think Israel enjoys having to spend the cash it does having to occupy those lands? Please. Their tax rates are already insane as it is.

Big Al: 3. Write in military votes were counted even though the dates were far past the deadline to send them in. Of course, most of these votes are for Republicans. (even though Bush is going to cut funding to the Veterans, people still are brainwashed into believing only Republicans care about the military).

Gee, why do you think that is, Big Al? Could it be because the Democrats love to enlarge every single aspect of goverment, except the military, which they love to cut. Could it be because of people like Baghdad Bonier? Or Bill "loathe the military" Clinton?

BTW, Bush is not cutting Veteran's funding. He's slowing the growth rate. Big difference.

05-08-03 04:06:49 PM Superoogie

Don't be ignorant. It has *everything* to do with it. Blacks in the Reconstruction South technically had the same rights as whites on paper, but if it is not being enforced, it means nothing. Palestinians are second-class citizens in Isreal. There's no factual way to deny that reality.

Wrong. Blacks only had rights given to them by the Constitution, states adopted certain laws to counter these rights. Israel has no such laws on the books. Next ignorant statement?

05-08-03 04:08:10 PM GEAH

Gee, why do you think that is, Big Al? Could it be because the Democrats love to enlarge every single aspect of goverment, except the military, which they love to cut. Could it be because of people like Baghdad Bonier? Or Bill "loathe the military" Clinton?

BTW, Bush is not cutting Veteran's funding. He's slowing the growth rate. Big difference.
LOOOOOOOOOOL!!

*breathe*

LOOOOOOOOOL!

I get it. Bush cuts funding to Vets who are struggling to get any money at all, and its "slowing the growth rate." Clinton cuts military spending because of Bush I and Reagans outrageous cold war spending, and hes a commie bastard who hates the military. Dude, youre hiliarous