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(MSNBC)   Pope says church must do penance for abuse. A couple of Hail Marys and a few Our Fathers should do it, right guys?   (msnbc.msn.com) divider line 369
    More: Obvious, pope, Easter Week, Mount of Olives, American Boys, pedophile, Pope Benedict XVI, Vatican, sexual assaults  
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4118 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2010 at 3:13 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-04-16 10:18:03 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: Then you approve of the Leviticus references, too? Killing children for cursing, for example ?

lol --- 0/10 for the troll.

Question: Are you a literal or fundamentalist atheist basing what you believe on contradictions in a set of loosely translated historical text and religious canon dating back multiple millennia?

just curious. You seem like one.

/how's that new religion working out for you?
 
2010-04-16 10:20:00 AM
gsusrox: Again I say that there has not been one "faith" that has had members/leadership guilty of something that would cause shame to it's name. The garbage that's happening now with the anti-Catholic Church campaign is completely misplaced.

It's like trying to blame every member of the United States military for the My-lai massacre. How many men died very honorable deaths serving their country in a time when it was unpopular to do so? A certain number of people are directly involved in the pedophile issue but every single member of the Catholic faith is being spat at! Those anti-Catholic folks out there should do their best to keep in mind that each of us are responsible for our own choices. If you choose not to like the Catholic faith or it's people, that's too bad. You're mis-judging alot of good people and dismissing a huge amount of good that people of the Catholic faith do in the world. But, it is your choice!

You might want to consider that not-so-long ago, quite a few people felt the same way about those of African decent... or Jewish decent...


You persist in side trips and red herrings. Who has said that all catholics are to blame? Or all priests? Cite one.

The problem and complaints are about how the child rapists were dealt with, and the priorities of the church's upper management.

If you want to address that, we can. If you want to talk about other things, do it somewhere else.
 
2010-04-16 10:20:41 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: NightOwl2255: Inflatable Rhetoric: Oooh, bible quotes. Let's do Leviticus.

.... or faith.... That's YOUR issue! You sound like a very angry person.. I am sorry for whatever has caused that but while you dwell on the "negatives of life", I choose to dwell on the beauty! Look at a newborn baby and tell me if that child is born with any bigotry, hate or anger... God doesn't "give us" the bad... that's the result of man's doing!

I'm no more angry at god than I am at Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy.

I find it amazing that adults cling to superstitions such as these.

And, they make excuses for god's actions and words and try to convince themselves and others that "god loves us", "god is perfect", god is someone I want to hang around with, etc.

It's crazy and delusional.


If you feel safe betting your soul on that opinion.. hey, fine by me. I'll bet on this; after one dies, it's too late to change one's mind!
 
2010-04-16 10:21:17 AM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: NightOwl2255: Inflatable Rhetoric: Oooh, bible quotes. Let's do Leviticus.

How about bible p0rn?

Ezekiel 23:19-20
Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

That's good, but Leviticus is my favorite.

Lev 20: 9-10 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Matthew 5; 38-42
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles.
Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?

So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The "perfect god" that gave us malaria, polio, typhus, etc, etc.

That's some love. I can understand fearing him, but loving him would require more pretense than I can muster.


.... or faith.... That's YOUR issue! You sound like a very angry person.. I am sorry for whatever has caused that but while you dwell on the "negatives of life", I choose to dwell on the beauty! Look at a newborn baby and tell me if that child is born with any bigotry, hate or anger... God doesn't "give us" the bad... that's the result of man's doing!

Look at a newborn baby, then remember that 1,000,000 people per year die from malaria, most of them children.

Malaria is the result of a life-form. Who besides god can create life?


God created life. Man manipulated and mis-used it! Free will!


How did "free will" create malaria?
 
2010-04-16 10:23:50 AM
kerpal32: Inflatable Rhetoric: Then you approve of the Leviticus references, too? Killing children for cursing, for example ?

lol --- 0/10 for the troll.

Question: Are you a literal or fundamentalist atheist basing what you believe on contradictions in a set of loosely translated historical text and religious canon dating back multiple millennia?

just curious. You seem like one.

/how's that new religion working out for you?


It's not clear what you're talking about. I asked about how he reconciles the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.
 
2010-04-16 10:24:51 AM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: NightOwl2255: Inflatable Rhetoric: Oooh, bible quotes. Let's do Leviticus.

.... or faith.... That's YOUR issue! You sound like a very angry person.. I am sorry for whatever has caused that but while you dwell on the "negatives of life", I choose to dwell on the beauty! Look at a newborn baby and tell me if that child is born with any bigotry, hate or anger... God doesn't "give us" the bad... that's the result of man's doing!

I'm no more angry at god than I am at Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy.

I find it amazing that adults cling to superstitions such as these.

And, they make excuses for god's actions and words and try to convince themselves and others that "god loves us", "god is perfect", god is someone I want to hang around with, etc.

It's crazy and delusional.

If you feel safe betting your soul on that opinion.. hey, fine by me. I'll bet on this; after one dies, it's too late to change one's mind!


What will you say if you die and face Allah?
 
2010-04-16 10:26:00 AM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: NightOwl2255: Inflatable Rhetoric: Oooh, bible quotes. Let's do Leviticus.

If you feel safe betting your soul on that opinion.. hey, fine by me. I'll bet on this; after one dies, it's too late to change one's mind!


PS You didn't explain how free will created malaria.
 
2010-04-16 10:28:50 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: kerpal32: Inflatable Rhetoric: ..... the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.


That's absurd!
 
2010-04-16 10:33:10 AM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: kerpal32: Inflatable Rhetoric: ..... the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.


That's absurd!


I think so, too.
 
2010-04-16 10:34:29 AM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: kerpal32: Inflatable Rhetoric: ..... the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.


That's absurd!


2nd Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
 
2010-04-16 10:35:19 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: NightOwl2255: Inflatable Rhetoric: Oooh, bible quotes. Let's do Leviticus.

.... or faith.... That's YOUR issue! You sound like a very angry person.. I am sorry for whatever has caused that but while you dwell on the "negatives of life", I choose to dwell on the beauty! Look at a newborn baby and tell me if that child is born with any bigotry, hate or anger... God doesn't "give us" the bad... that's the result of man's doing!

I'm no more angry at god than I am at Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy.

I find it amazing that adults cling to superstitions such as these.

And, they make excuses for god's actions and words and try to convince themselves and others that "god loves us", "god is perfect", god is someone I want to hang around with, etc.

It's crazy and delusional.

If you feel safe betting your soul on that opinion.. hey, fine by me. I'll bet on this; after one dies, it's too late to change one's mind!

What will you say if you die and face Allah?


??? God, Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, Creator... Whatever man labels Him, I pray I will have the honor of falling to my knees in praise...
 
2010-04-16 10:36:49 AM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: NightOwl2255: Inflatable Rhetoric: Oooh, bible quotes. Let's do Leviticus.

How about bible p0rn?

Ezekiel 23:19-20
Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

That's good, but Leviticus is my favorite.

Lev 20: 9-10 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Matthew 5; 38-42
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles.
Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?

So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The "perfect god" that gave us malaria, polio, typhus, etc, etc.

That's some love. I can understand fearing him, but loving him would require more pretense than I can muster.


.... or faith.... That's YOUR issue! You sound like a very angry person.. I am sorry for whatever has caused that but while you dwell on the "negatives of life", I choose to dwell on the beauty! Look at a newborn baby and tell me if that child is born with any bigotry, hate or anger... God doesn't "give us" the bad... that's the result of man's doing!

Look at a newborn baby, then remember that 1,000,000 people per year die from malaria, most of them children.

Malaria is the result of a life-form. Who besides god can create life?


God created life. Man manipulated and mis-used it! Free will!


Man created malaria?
 
2010-04-16 10:37:55 AM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: NightOwl2255: Inflatable Rhetoric: Oooh, bible quotes. Let's do Leviticus.

.... or faith.... That's YOUR issue! You sound like a very angry person.. I am sorry for whatever has caused that but while you dwell on the "negatives of life", I choose to dwell on the beauty! Look at a newborn baby and tell me if that child is born with any bigotry, hate or anger... God doesn't "give us" the bad... that's the result of man's doing!

I'm no more angry at god than I am at Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy.

I find it amazing that adults cling to superstitions such as these.

And, they make excuses for god's actions and words and try to convince themselves and others that "god loves us", "god is perfect", god is someone I want to hang around with, etc.

It's crazy and delusional.

If you feel safe betting your soul on that opinion.. hey, fine by me. I'll bet on this; after one dies, it's too late to change one's mind!

What will you say if you die and face Allah?

??? God, Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, Creator... Whatever man labels Him, I pray I will have the honor of falling to my knees in praise...


Slave mentality. Nice. That is why we can't have nice things.
 
2010-04-16 10:38:43 AM
NightOwl2255: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: kerpal32: Inflatable Rhetoric: ..... the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.


That's absurd!

2nd Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.


Do you not know that the New Testament is God's new covanent with His people???
 
2010-04-16 10:40:28 AM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: NightOwl2255: Inflatable Rhetoric: Oooh, bible quotes. Let's do Leviticus.

.... or faith.... That's YOUR issue! You sound like a very angry person.. I am sorry for whatever has caused that but while you dwell on the "negatives of life", I choose to dwell on the beauty! Look at a newborn baby and tell me if that child is born with any bigotry, hate or anger... God doesn't "give us" the bad... that's the result of man's doing!

I'm no more angry at god than I am at Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy.

I find it amazing that adults cling to superstitions such as these.

And, they make excuses for god's actions and words and try to convince themselves and others that "god loves us", "god is perfect", god is someone I want to hang around with, etc.

It's crazy and delusional.

If you feel safe betting your soul on that opinion.. hey, fine by me. I'll bet on this; after one dies, it's too late to change one's mind!

What will you say if you die and face Allah?

??? God, Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, Creator... Whatever man labels Him, I pray I will have the honor of falling to my knees in praise...


You see no differences between gods, then? God, Allah, Thor, Odin, all the same?

PS How did free will create malaria?
 
2010-04-16 10:46:16 AM
......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..
 
2010-04-16 10:46:40 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: NightOwl2255: Inflatable Rhetoric: Oooh, bible quotes. Let's do Leviticus.

.... or faith.... That's YOUR issue! You sound like a very angry person.. I am sorry for whatever has caused that but while you dwell on the "negatives of life", I choose to dwell on the beauty! Look at a newborn baby and tell me if that child is born with any bigotry, hate or anger... God doesn't "give us" the bad... that's the result of man's doing!

I'm no more angry at god than I am at Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy.

I find it amazing that adults cling to superstitions such as these.

And, they make excuses for god's actions and words and try to convince themselves and others that "god loves us", "god is perfect", god is someone I want to hang around with, etc.

It's crazy and delusional.

If you feel safe betting your soul on that opinion.. hey, fine by me. I'll bet on this; after one dies, it's too late to change one's mind!

What will you say if you die and face Allah?

??? God, Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, Creator... Whatever man labels Him, I pray I will have the honor of falling to my knees in praise...

You see no differences between gods, then? God, Allah, Thor, Odin, all the same?

PS How did free will create malaria?


Oh please. Thor would knock Jesus's teeth in.
 
2010-04-16 10:47:33 AM
gsusrox: NightOwl2255: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: kerpal32: Inflatable Rhetoric: ..... the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.


That's absurd!

2nd Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Do you not know that the New Testament is God's new covanent with His people???


And still, 40,000 children under age 6 die EACH DAY, most of starvation.

Few humans are as cruel as this god "who loves us."
 
2010-04-16 10:48:40 AM
gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..


Who besides god can create life? Nice try at dancing around it.
 
2010-04-16 10:49:54 AM
gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..


You don't claim to be a scientist? Then don't make claims that are empirically false just to prop up your god.

You honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria? Really? Do you believe that that is unknowable? Do you believe there is no way to interrogate nature to find these things out?

Why do you think that criticism of claims that have been addressed for many generations is "cynicism"?
 
2010-04-16 10:50:33 AM
gshepnyc: Oh please. Thor would knock Jesus's teeth in.

Are you saying Jesus Christ can not hit a curve ball?
 
2010-04-16 10:51:02 AM
You see no differences between gods, then? God, Allah, Thor, Odin, all the same? There is only One... no name given by us, matters. He knows our hearts...

PS How did free will create malaria?... see below
 
2010-04-16 10:51:09 AM
gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..


Your 1st answer was "free will." Now, you don't know, you're not a scientist. But, you have faith that god didn't do it. Is that right?

Are you a child? I don't want to pick on children. (Unlike god)
 
2010-04-16 10:53:52 AM
gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..


Oh, and to use your own reasoning here, just because we don't have an answer in general does not mean god did it. The existence of life or the universe does not mean god created it.

And in fact, at every step along the way of scientific progress the space in which any god has any possibility of operating gets smaller and smaller. The likelihood of god has only decreased over time, not increased. There is not a single observable, testable phenomenon that indicates the presence, activity or handiwork of god.
 
2010-04-16 10:55:06 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: It's not clear what you're talking about. I asked about how he reconciles the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.

no, that would be all you. and only you.

The only one pointing to the bible and ranting here about "perfect God" and advocating the killing of Children is you.

/but then you probably also think Epicurus was an atheist.
 
2010-04-16 10:56:05 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: NightOwl2255: gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: kerpal32: Inflatable Rhetoric: ..... the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.


That's absurd!

2nd Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Do you not know that the New Testament is God's new covanent with His people???

And still, 40,000 children under age 6 die EACH DAY, most of starvation.

Few humans are as cruel as this god "who loves us."


... perhaps they wouldn't if all men gave of their excess.... God has given us plenty. Man is selfish.
 
2010-04-16 10:56:09 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..

Your 1st answer was "free will." Now, you don't know, you're not a scientist. But, you have faith that god didn't do it. Is that right?

Are you a child? I don't want to pick on children. (Unlike god)


That's a good point. If he's a kid I will back off too. He has an excuse for ignorance. To an extent. Though, unless all reason and critical thinking is off limits, arguing with a theist is always a little like punching a baby.
 
2010-04-16 10:57:47 AM
Slave mentality. Nice. That is why we can't have nice things.

... who said you can't have nice things?
 
2010-04-16 10:58:51 AM
kerpal32: Inflatable Rhetoric: It's not clear what you're talking about. I asked about how he reconciles the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.

no, that would be all you. and only you.

The only one pointing to the bible and ranting here about "perfect God" and advocating the killing of Children is you.

/but then you probably also think Epicurus was an atheist.


You cannot apply contemporary definitions of god and atheism to ancient mindsets. They had ideas of gods that none of us, theist or atheist, hold to and we have concepts of god that would have baffled them.
 
2010-04-16 10:59:03 AM
kerpal32: Inflatable Rhetoric: It's not clear what you're talking about. I asked about how he reconciles the "perfect god" who advocates killing children.

no, that would be all you. and only you.

The only one pointing to the bible and ranting here about "perfect God" and advocating the killing of Children is you.

/but then you probably also think Epicurus was an atheist.


Maybe you haven't read the posts.
 
2010-04-16 11:06:49 AM
gshepnyc: gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..

Oh, and to use your own reasoning here, just because we don't have an answer in general does not mean god did it. The existence of life or the universe does not mean god created it.

And in fact, at every step along the way of scientific progress the space in which any god has any possibility of operating gets smaller and smaller. The likelihood of god has only decreased over time, not increased. There is not a single observable, testable phenomenon that indicates the presence, activity or handiwork of god.


... That's odd because I see it all around me... and so do billions of people! I can't see wind but I knoew it's there when I see the leaves of a tree rustle .... The question of faith will not be answered by man. By definition, it is the belief in something that cannot be proven (by man). I have peace with my faith. If you have peace with your stance, wonderful. I believe we can co-exist... :-)
 
2010-04-16 11:11:15 AM
Are you a child? I don't want to pick on children. (Unlike god)

That's a good point. If he's a kid I will back off too. He has an excuse for ignorance. To an extent. Though, unless all reason and critical thinking is off limits, arguing with a theist is always a little like punching a baby.

.... How would you define faith? Do you have faith in anything (other than yourself?)
 
2010-04-16 11:14:07 AM
gsusrox: gshepnyc: gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..

Oh, and to use your own reasoning here, just because we don't have an answer in general does not mean god did it. The existence of life or the universe does not mean god created it.

And in fact, at every step along the way of scientific progress the space in which any god has any possibility of operating gets smaller and smaller. The likelihood of god has only decreased over time, not increased. There is not a single observable, testable phenomenon that indicates the presence, activity or handiwork of god.

... That's odd because I see it all around me... and so do billions of people! I can't see wind but I knoew it's there when I see the leaves of a tree rustle .... The question of faith will not be answered by man. By definition, it is the belief in something that cannot be proven (by man). I have peace with my faith. If you have peace with your stance, wonderful. I believe we can co-exist... :-)


Sure. But your side needs to stop trying to influence public policy, stop trying to make your fantasies mean something in the lives of the rest of us, stop using those fantasies to affect the lives of others, etc.
 
2010-04-16 11:15:51 AM
gsusrox: Are you a child? I don't want to pick on children. (Unlike god)

That's a good point. If he's a kid I will back off too. He has an excuse for ignorance. To an extent. Though, unless all reason and critical thinking is off limits, arguing with a theist is always a little like punching a baby.

.... How would you define faith? Do you have faith in anything (other than yourself?)


Faith is the abdication of reason. I do not pretend it means anything other than as shorthand for knowing someone or something in the real world is generally reliable. I don't need to put my brain on the shelf to enjoy any part of life.
 
2010-04-16 11:16:00 AM
gsusrox: gshepnyc: gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..

Oh, and to use your own reasoning here, just because we don't have an answer in general does not mean god did it. The existence of life or the universe does not mean god created it.

And in fact, at every step along the way of scientific progress the space in which any god has any possibility of operating gets smaller and smaller. The likelihood of god has only decreased over time, not increased. There is not a single observable, testable phenomenon that indicates the presence, activity or handiwork of god.

... That's odd because I see it all around me... and so do billions of people! I can't see wind but I knoew it's there when I see the leaves of a tree rustle .... The question of faith will not be answered by man. By definition, it is the belief in something that cannot be proven (by man). I have peace with my faith. If you have peace with your stance, wonderful. I believe we can co-exist... :-)


We can.

However, we have no reason to tolerate an organization that does not give a high priority to preventing the rape of children.
 
2010-04-16 11:16:46 AM
Unfortunately, I have to run for a couple of hours. If anyone remains, I will be back.
 
2010-04-16 11:17:50 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..

Your 1st answer was "free will." Now, you don't know, you're not a scientist. But, you have faith that god didn't do it. Is that right?

Are you a child? I don't want to pick on children. (Unlike god)


.... no I'm not but I'll consider that a compliment!

Matthew 18: 1-3
At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
He called a child over, placed it in their midst,
and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
 
2010-04-16 11:24:51 AM
gshepnyc: You cannot apply contemporary definitions of god and atheism to ancient mindsets.

no, what we and everyone else before and after Russell are saying is you cannot force biblical or historical literalism as the sole context of a "definition", and false dichotomies of concepts of perfections and omnipotence from a natural/physical perspective, and use that to say any reasoning of "God" is irrational.

And, just because you cannot define "God" within a philosophical framework that atheists are willing (wow - free will again...) to accept does not mean any discussion of "God" as a must be invalid. It means atheist have a disbelief in such an entity.

But then you probably cannot understand why Russell, Sagan and any other atheist using that argument you're using here didn't immediately convert everyone to atheism or why theism/deism hasn't disappeared in a poof of logic.

It just means you're a fundamentalist atheist and an asshole about it with regard to anyone who doesn't believe as you do.....

farm1.static.flickr.com

/but if you can stop being a complete asshole about it and your beliefs, maybe people will treat you with a little mutual courtesy and respect.
 
2010-04-16 11:30:55 AM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..

Your 1st answer was "free will." Now, you don't know, you're not a scientist. But, you have faith that god didn't do it. Is that right?

Are you a child? I don't want to pick on children. (Unlike god)

.... no I'm not but I'll consider that a compliment!

Matthew 18: 1-3
At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
He called a child over, placed it in their midst,
and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


I've read all I can find about heaven, and I don't see why anyone would want to go there.
The usual response is, "It's better than hell." I wouldn't go on vacation to a place that advertised "Better Than Hell", so why would I want to be there a long time?
 
2010-04-16 11:36:53 AM
.....

It just means you're a fundamentalist atheist and an asshole about it with regard to anyone who doesn't believe as you do.....



/but if you can stop being a complete asshole about it and your beliefs, maybe people will treat you with a little mutual courtesy and respect.

YIKES! name calling isn't necessary.... but thank you and I completely concur!
 
2010-04-16 11:40:58 AM
I've read all I can find about heaven, and I don't see why anyone would want to go there.
The usual response is, "It's better than hell." I wouldn't go on vacation to a place that advertised "Better Than Hell", so why would I want to be there a long time?

.... all you've read about heaven .... huh? and all you could find was "it's better than heaven"? try expanding your reading list to things written by Christians... or not... but I'm sorry that you feel that's all there is...
 
2010-04-16 11:42:04 AM
gshepnyc: Sure. But your side needs to stop trying to influence public policy, stop trying to make your fantasies metaphysical beliefs mean something in the lives of the rest of us, stop using those fantasies metaphysical beliefs to affect the lives of others, etc.

FTFY.

well, frankly the same can be said for anti-theists and atheists trying to convert everyone.... Fark and the internet in general are prime examples.

pix.motivatedphotos.com
 
2010-04-16 11:46:59 AM
gsusrox: I've read all I can find about heaven, and I don't see why anyone would want to go there.
The usual response is, "It's better than hell." I wouldn't go on vacation to a place that advertised "Better Than Hell", so why would I want to be there a long time?

.... all you've read about heaven .... huh? and all you could find was "it's better than heaven"? try expanding your reading list to things written by Christians... or not... but I'm sorry that you feel that's all there is...


I have read stuff by christians. Why do you assume I haven't?
What readings do you recommend?
 
2010-04-16 11:48:18 AM
kerpal32: gshepnyc: You cannot apply contemporary definitions of god and atheism to ancient mindsets.

Wall of text


A kerpal post:
Wall of text? Check.
Links to irrelevant sites, normally Wiki? Check.
Tilting at windmill argument? Check.
Post a pic meaning to insult? Check.
Ad hominem? Check.

Yep, that's classic kerpal.
 
2010-04-16 11:48:41 AM
Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: gshepnyc: gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..

Oh, and to use your own reasoning here, just because we don't have an answer in general does not mean god did it. The existence of life or the universe does not mean god created it.

And in fact, at every step along the way of scientific progress the space in which any god has any possibility of operating gets smaller and smaller. The likelihood of god has only decreased over time, not increased. There is not a single observable, testable phenomenon that indicates the presence, activity or handiwork of god.

... That's odd because I see it all around me... and so do billions of people! I can't see wind but I knoew it's there when I see the leaves of a tree rustle .... The question of faith will not be answered by man. By definition, it is the belief in something that cannot be proven (by man). I have peace with my faith. If you have peace with your stance, wonderful. I believe we can co-exist... :-)

We can.

However, we have no reason to tolerate an organization that does not give a high priority to preventing the rape of children.


you are right... I just do not believe that is the Church.... we do not "throw out" the entire US government because members of Congress are guilty of crimes... and we do not accuse every member of the government of being "delusional" because they still believe in a greater good!
 
2010-04-16 12:00:04 PM
NightOwl2255: wharrgarbl

Typical NightOwl2255 post.

- Big bowl of "I got nothin". check.

img413.imageshack.us

img512.imageshack.us
 
2010-04-16 12:02:55 PM
The Vatican was hit by another embarrassing revelation late on Thursday when a website posted a letter by a senior Curia cardinal heartily congratulating a French bishop in 2001 for not denouncing a self-confessed abusive priest to the police.

Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, who at the time headed the Vatican department in charge of priests around the world, told Bishop Pierre Pican of Bayeux-Lisieux he was a model for all bishops for his behavior in the case that shocked France.

The priest, Rev. Rene Bissey, was sentenced to 18 years in jail for sexually abusing 11 boys and Pican got a suspended three-month sentence for not reporting the crimes.

"I congratulate you for not denouncing a priest to the civil administration," Castrillon Hoyos wrote.



Nice.
 
2010-04-16 12:03:32 PM
Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: I've read all I can find about heaven, and I don't see why anyone would want to go there.
The usual response is, "It's better than hell." I wouldn't go on vacation to a place that advertised "Better Than Hell", so why would I want to be there a long time?

.... all you've read about heaven .... huh? and all you could find was "it's better than heaven"? try expanding your reading list to things written by Christians... or not... but I'm sorry that you feel that's all there is...

I have read stuff by christians. Why do you assume I haven't?
What readings do you recommend?



I am not assuming anything but I wonder what Christian would describe heaven the way that you did..

I would start with the bible (not assuming that you have not read it, just thinking that there may have been things that were missed) :

Revelations 21
He took me in spirit to a great, high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.
It gleamed with the splendor of God. Its radiance was like that of a precious stone, like jasper, clear as crystal.
It had a massive, high wall, with twelve gates where twelve angels were stationed and on which names were inscribed, (the names) of the twelve tribes of the Israelites.
There were three gates facing east, three north, three south, and three west.
The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
The one who spoke to me held a gold measuring rod to measure the city, its gates, and its wall.
The city was square, its length the same as (also) its width. He measured the city with the rod and found it fifteen hundred miles in length and width and height.
He also measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits 14 according to the standard unit of measurement the angel used.
The wall was constructed of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass.
The foundations of the city wall were decorated with every precious stone; the first course of stones was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald,
the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh hyacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made from a single pearl; and the street of the city was of pure gold, transparent as glass.
I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God almighty and the Lamb.
The city had no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gave it light, and its lamp was the Lamb.
The nations will walk by its light, 18 and to it the kings of the earth will bring their treasure.
During the day its gates will never be shut, and there will be no night there.
The treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there,
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 
2010-04-16 12:06:35 PM
gsusrox: Inflatable Rhetoric: gsusrox: gshepnyc: gsusrox: ......Man created malaria?

I do not claim to be a scientist... and honestly don't believe that anyone knows the origin of Malaria... Just because we humans don't have an answer to "bad" doesn't mean God "created" it... those of us who have faith have an answer for "bad" but you'd just make some cynical comment about that too..

Oh, and to use your own reasoning here, just because we don't have an answer in general does not mean god did it. The existence of life or the universe does not mean god created it.

And in fact, at every step along the way of scientific progress the space in which any god has any possibility of operating gets smaller and smaller. The likelihood of god has only decreased over time, not increased. There is not a single observable, testable phenomenon that indicates the presence, activity or handiwork of god.

... That's odd because I see it all around me... and so do billions of people! I can't see wind but I knoew it's there when I see the leaves of a tree rustle .... The question of faith will not be answered by man. By definition, it is the belief in something that cannot be proven (by man). I have peace with my faith. If you have peace with your stance, wonderful. I believe we can co-exist... :-)

We can.

However, we have no reason to tolerate an organization that does not give a high priority to preventing the rape of children.

you are right... I just do not believe that is the Church.... we do not "throw out" the entire US government because members of Congress are guilty of crimes... and we do not accuse every member of the government of being "delusional" because they still believe in a greater good!


You don't believe it was the church.
Then where did these priests work?
Who covered up the child rapes?

Once again, you say things that are irrelevant. When did I suggest accusing every member of the church? Or every priest?
Are you against an investigation, and putting the child rapists in prison?

I'm still waiting to hear who created malaria, too. If only god can create life, then... ??
 
2010-04-16 12:08:28 PM
gshepnyc: The likelihood of god has only decreased over time


and what scale exactly are you using?


"God created infinity, and man, unable to understand infinity, had to invent finite sets."
- Gian Carlo Rota

or are you saying "no statements are true unless they can be proven scientifically"? If so, enjoy your new religion.

Tarski was an atheist, but he understood your beliefs better than you understand your beliefs.

/theistic probability. the atheist version of intelligent design as science.
 
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