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(BBC)   British Chiropractic Association cracks   (news.bbc.co.uk) divider line 59
    More: Interesting, British Chiropractic Association, science writers, investigative journalists, legal costs, libel, Guardian  
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4622 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Apr 2010 at 8:24 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-04-15 08:30:35 AM
Man, it's early! I read that as "Bullshiat Chiropractic Association".
 
2010-04-15 08:30:51 AM
newsimg.bbc.co.uk


He just doesn't look like a Dr. Singh...
 
2010-04-15 08:35:43 AM
Well to be fair they had not a jot of evidence to back up their side of the claim.
 
2010-04-15 08:36:05 AM
This is fabulous news.

"You haven't shown evidence that your treatment works."
"Rather than prove my claims, I will sue you to shut you up."
 
2010-04-15 08:37:47 AM
The acceptance of chiropractic voodoo by insurance companies is a terrific example of what you can accomplish when you hire expensive lawyers. The only thing chiropractic is good for is keeping neurotic hypochondriacs away from real doctors so the rest of us don't have to wait as long for an appointment.
 
2010-04-15 08:38:06 AM
landimal: Well to be fair they had not a jot of evidence to back up their side of the claim.

Using homeopathic principles, shouldn't that have made their case even stronger?
 
2010-04-15 08:39:05 AM
This is a huge victory, but Libel Reform in England still affects free speech and scientific debate around the world.

Please sign the petition (pops like your back), you don't have to be in the UK.

/submitter thanks you
 
2010-04-15 08:42:45 AM
Chiropractors: putting the "crack" in "crackpot" for 150 years.

"Chiropractic" isn't medicine, it's an adjective. None of the cool nouns (like "medicine," or "science") want to hang out with it.

Friend of mine called her chiropractor boyfriend a "doctor," and I got to use the "yeah, so is Dr. Pepper" line.
/Fark you, bone-crackers
//Subluxions, my ass
 
2010-04-15 08:46:55 AM
Of course I meant Libel Law, which needs to be reformed.

/sillymitter
 
2010-04-15 08:47:15 AM
Good for Singh. Good for science.

Fark the quacks.
 
2010-04-15 08:49:15 AM
quisph:
Using homeopathic principles, shouldn't that have made their case even stronger?


Only if they had prepared their case in a 54c dilution - they made the mistake of going right to the courts with it.

(and welcome to my favorites list what color do you want to be?)
 
2010-04-15 08:50:04 AM
I for one am a fan of the medical approach for back problems. 'Well it seems you have a real problem in your spine so we're gonna weld it together for you. If that doesn't work we'll go ahead and shove a steal rod in it. Either way here's a lifetime prescription to vicodin."
 
2010-04-15 08:50:20 AM
I find a strong correlation between the degree to which people are 'into' chiropractic treatment, and their general douchebaggery.
 
2010-04-15 09:03:49 AM
British libel laws are just insane.
 
2010-04-15 09:17:15 AM
Too big to post here but do check out Crispian Jago's brilliant Skeptic Trumps (new window) card of Simon. (and do check out the rest!)
 
2010-04-15 09:18:36 AM
DisregardTheFollowing: I for one am a fan of the medical approach for back problems. 'Well it seems you have a real problem in your spine so we're gonna weld it together for you. If that doesn't work we'll go ahead and shove a steal rod in it. Either way here's a lifetime prescription to vicodin."

Yeah, I sure the hell wouldn't go to anyhwere near a chiropractor for treating colic or asthma (which is specifically what this case is about), but if you've ever gone to a "real doctor" with back or neck pain, your options for treatment/relief are pretty grim.
 
2010-04-15 09:23:48 AM
thesloppy: DisregardTheFollowing: I for one am a fan of the medical approach for back problems. 'Well it seems you have a real problem in your spine so we're gonna weld it together for you. If that doesn't work we'll go ahead and shove a steal rod in it. Either way here's a lifetime prescription to vicodin."

Yeah, I sure the hell wouldn't go to anyhwere near a chiropractor for treating colic or asthma (which is specifically what this case is about), but if you've ever gone to a "real doctor" with back or neck pain, your options for treatment/relief are pretty grim.


A general practitioner won't be able to do much for you, but a physical therapist might.

/situps and hamstring stretches work great for lower back pain
 
2010-04-15 09:28:10 AM
Cool, this is great news. I hoped it was this based on the headline. It's a bit of a spoiler though, as I'm getting through the SGU archives and I'm only through August 2009. I know what I can look forward to for the episode that's being produced now.
 
2010-04-15 09:32:33 AM
Chozo: Cool, this is great news. I hoped it was this based on the headline. It's a bit of a spoiler though, as I'm getting through the SGU archives and I'm only through August 2009. I know what I can look forward to for the episode that's being produced now.


Sorry.
You're going to love April 1. (it's not a joke)
 
2010-04-15 09:34:30 AM
@the sloppy: Totally agree. Chiropractic should not be advertised as a cure for either of those conditions, however, in isolated incidents I've seen it work for one reason or another once all else has failed. Really, I just get tired of Chiropractic being discarded as effective treatment for anything other than 'hypochondria' and that's where this thread is going.
 
2010-04-15 09:39:20 AM
Please, people: "chiromancy". Calling it "chiropractice" makes it sound like real medicine.
 
2010-04-15 09:43:35 AM
Cracking analysis from Jack of Kent (new window)
 
2010-04-15 09:44:38 AM
CHIROPRACTORS = QUACKS

rlv.zcache.com
 
2010-04-15 09:45:35 AM
DisregardTheFollowing: I for one am a fan of the medical approach for back problems. 'Well it seems you have a real problem in your spine so we're gonna weld it together for you. If that doesn't work we'll go ahead and shove a steal rod in it. Either way here's a lifetime prescription to vicodin."

Chiropratic adjustments are good for a very limited set of circumstances. They are great for getting a vertebre back where it belongs or to undo a pinched disc. If they start talking about "toxins" or treating anything other than your back and joints run screaming.

A regular doctor wanted to run screws through my hip bones because he couldn't figure out how to solve the problem in my back. Luckily I found a couple of other MDs with a better skill set that actually solved the problem. I still go to a chiropractor a couple of times a year when I throw something out and it won't go back in by itself.
 
2010-04-15 09:48:47 AM
Phil Moskowitz: British libel laws are just insane.

One of the reasons why we fight so hard to preserve the 1st Amendment here in the U.S.
 
2010-04-15 09:53:36 AM
thesloppy: but if you've ever gone to a "real doctor" with back or neck pain, your options for treatment/relief are pretty grim.

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-A-T

A physical therapist address your problems better than a chiroquacktor. The only difference is that the chiropractor offers you immediate relief, given you see him 4 times a week for 6 years.

A physical therapist will show you how to fix your back and neck problems, but you have to do it yourself.
 
2010-04-15 09:59:14 AM
FTFA: Dr Singh was being sued by the organisation because of comments he had made in the Guardian in 2008 about the effectiveness of chiropractic.

Disc massage is the highest form of chiropractic
 
2010-04-15 10:00:56 AM
quisph: landimal: Well to be fair they had not a jot of evidence to back up their side of the claim.

Using homeopathic principles, shouldn't that have made their case even stronger?


DEFENSE ATTORNEY MISTER THOMAS, ESQ. Your Honour, we have taken a hundred words from our original deposition and added them randomly into another, larger document. Then we took a hundred words from that document and copied them into yet another literary work. I submit as Exhibit D a sworn statement that we repeated this process one hundred thousand times, and present The Court with our new deposition.

LORD JUSTICE WIGGINBOTTOMSTONHAUGHFIELD: This is a Children's story! 'Hop On Pop', it says right here on the cover. And the only change is on page eleven, where someone has stricken the word "Pop" and written the word "spine" in yellow crayon.

MISTER THOMAS: That concludes our testimony, M'Lud.
 
2010-04-15 10:09:13 AM
Ah, yes. The old "chiropractors are all quacks" wharrgarrble.
*yawn* Oh, yeah, you don't know what the fark you're talking about, but, whatever, keep spewing.
By the way, physical therapists are as much bullshiat as chiros.
 
2010-04-15 10:13:45 AM
doubled99: Ah, yes. The old "chiropractors are all quacks" wharrgarrble.
*yawn* Oh, yeah, you don't know what the fark you're talking about, but, whatever, keep spewing.
By the way, physical therapists are as much bullshiat as chiros.


Both sides are bad, so go to a chiropractor.
 
2010-04-15 10:18:33 AM
doubled99: By the way, physical therapists are as much bullshiat as chiros.

BULLSHIAT. PTs give you exercises to strengthen problem areas. BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE WORK YOURSELF, AND REGULARLY.

Chiropractors convince people there is a magic fix, given you go into their office 5 times a week.
 
2010-04-15 10:19:49 AM
moops: thesloppy: but if you've ever gone to a "real doctor" with back or neck pain, your options for treatment/relief are pretty grim.

B-U-L-L-S-H-I-A-T

A physical therapist address your problems better than a chiroquacktor. The only difference is that the chiropractor offers you immediate relief, given you see him 4 times a week for 6 years.

A physical therapist will show you how to fix your back and neck problems, but you have to do it yourself.


I have no interest in impugning physical therapists, but they certainly don't fit my definition of "real doctors" and going to see a GP (or an orthopaedist) with a back problem is just as likely to get you a recommendation to a chiropractor as a PT.
Lastly, dismissing immediate relief as some sort of luxury is pretty ridiculous.
 
2010-04-15 10:20:07 AM
Monthenor: Please, people: "chiromancy". Calling it "chiropractice" makes it sound like real medicine.

I don't think they claimed to use it to predict the future. Well, apart from "the future will hold more money for me thanks to the gullible idiots who believe this crap".
 
2010-04-15 10:20:25 AM
There is a reason no medical school offers the "DC" degree (doctor of chiropractic). It's quackery.

Chiropractors have their own "colleges" because they know they're a haven for people who couldn't hack medical school.
 
2010-04-15 10:22:16 AM
thesloppy: I have no interest in impugning physical therapists, but they certainly don't fit my definition of "real doctors"

That might be because a physical therapist is not a doctor. Their degrees even state that they are not doctors.
 
2010-04-15 10:24:52 AM
There's a little bit of something to a good chiromancer. There's a lot of bit of something to all physiotherapy.
 
2010-04-15 10:30:09 AM
moops: thesloppy: I have no interest in impugning physical therapists, but they certainly don't fit my definition of "real doctors"

That might be because a physical therapist is not a doctor. Their degrees even state that they are not doctors.


Yuh, I know, that was kind of my point. You're the one who responded to my post about "real doctors" with PT.
 
2010-04-15 10:31:34 AM
thesloppy: DisregardTheFollowing: I for one am a fan of the medical approach for back problems. 'Well it seems you have a real problem in your spine so we're gonna weld it together for you. If that doesn't work we'll go ahead and shove a steal rod in it. Either way here's a lifetime prescription to vicodin."

Yeah, I sure the hell wouldn't go to anyhwere near a chiropractor for treating colic or asthma (which is specifically what this case is about), but if you've ever gone to a "real doctor" with back or neck pain, your options for treatment/relief are pretty grim.


Ugh, I'm all too familiar with this. I have bad arthritis in my spine (and scoliosis), but I'd only use back surgery as an absolute last resort. When I worked with a vocational expert, I saw hundreds of people who had back surgeries and the surgery only made things worse.

I was in physical therapy for about a year but never got any better. I've done chiropractic as well, and while it felt really good the day I got it, the relief was really short-lived. I've also tried every herbal and homeopathic (yeah, yeah, but when you're in excruciating pain 24/7, you'll try anything once) remedy there is. So now I just get pain meds shoved down my throat, and my tolerance is already really high. I can't (nor do I want to) take them forever, but what else is there?

The one thing I haven't tried yet is acupuncture, but I'm gonna try that once I get some money. I'm crossing my fingers.

/back pain sucks
//doesn't get all the smack talk - if it works for you, do it
 
2010-04-15 10:35:14 AM
moops: There is a reason no medical school offers the "DC" degree (doctor of chiropractic). It's quackery.

Chiropractors have their own "colleges" because they know they're a haven for people who couldn't hack medical school.


Are you as retarded as you sound? The reason "medical" schools don't offer doctor of chiropractic degrees is because they are medical schools. They offer doctor of medicine degrees. It's the same reason they don't offer doctor of optometry, doctor of podiatry or doctor of philosophy degrees. It's a different degree.

It's easy to say chiros are quacks but know this... the AMA is responsible for this notion. The AMA was found guilty of conspiracy to destroy the chiro profession by the US Supreme Court in the early 90's. Why would they do such a thing? Because people going to chiros were getting well and the medical doctors were losing business.

Say what you will, but chiropractic works. Period. No, they don't have as much research, but there IS research, and plenty of it. And if you haven't read it, it's because you haven't looked. Just open the pages of JMPT and Spine and you will find it. Your ignorance is your ignorance. When 99% of funding for research goes to generically pharma research and the other 1% gets distributed to CAM's as a whole, how can you expect any CAM to have any significant amount of research on par with medical/pharmaceutical research?

When at best iatrogenic causes are the third leading cause of death in the US and at worst are the leading cause of death in the US... those of you spouting quackery at alternatives may want to rethink your position.

And yes... chiropractic does help kids with colic and asthma. I've personally seen it dozens of times. These are kids who's MD's are prescribing acid reflux meds, and anti-depressants to get the babies to stop crying. These kids get well with chiropractic.

Keep taking your pills. Hope that works out for you.
 
2010-04-15 10:46:09 AM
What no Eddie Izzard reference?

\leaves disappointed
 
2010-04-15 10:50:57 AM
ABCDEFQ: Are you as retarded as you sound? The reason "medical" schools don't offer doctor of chiropractic degrees is because they are medical schools. They offer doctor of medicine degrees. It's the same reason they don't offer doctor of optometry, doctor of podiatry or doctor of philosophy degrees. It's a different degree.

It's easy to say chiros are quacks but know this... the AMA is responsible for this notion. The AMA was found guilty of conspiracy to destroy the chiro profession by the US Supreme Court in the early 90's. Why would they do such a thing? Because people going to chiros were getting well and the medical doctors were losing business.

Say what you will, but chiropractic works. Period. No, they don't have as much research, but there IS research, and plenty of it. And if you haven't read it, it's because you haven't looked. Just open the pages of JMPT and Spine and you will find it. Your ignorance is your ignorance. When 99% of funding for research goes to generically pharma research and the other 1% gets distributed to CAM's as a whole, how can you expect any CAM to have any significant amount of research on par with medical/pharmaceutical research?

When at best iatrogenic causes are the third leading cause of death in the US and at worst are the leading cause of death in the US... those of you spouting quackery at alternatives may want to rethink your position.

And yes... chiropractic does help kids with colic and asthma. I've personally seen it dozens of times. These are kids who's MD's are prescribing acid reflux meds, and anti-depressants to get the babies to stop crying. These kids get well with chiropractic.

Keep taking your pills. Hope that works out for you.


Jesus H. Christ. The American Chiropractic Association has agents everywhere. Even on Fark.
 
2010-04-15 10:51:11 AM
ABCDEFQ:
And yes... chiropractic does help kids with colic and asthma. I've personally seen it dozens of times.


The plural of anecdote is not data. A breathing problem that can be alleviated by cracking someone's spine is not asthma any more than a developmental disability caused by thimerosal is autism.

keep taking your pills

Because if they make a healty person sick, surely they can't make a sick person well, right?

[image-derpderpderp]
 
2010-04-15 10:52:39 AM
I think lots of folks who get absolutely rage-filled at the mention of chiropractic have very little concern about their ability to effectively treat pain, and are much more concerned about them co-opting the title of Doctor. Some of that is probably genuine concern about the ability to lead hurt, naive people astray with the power that the title carries...but it also reeks heavily of an elitism that has nothing to do with anything but social status.
 
2010-04-15 10:53:38 AM
ABCDEFQ: Just open the pages of JMPT and Spine and you will find it.

OK, so it causes intercranial hypotension, urgently needs a robust review of safety and commonly induces adverse reactions.

On the positive side: "Differences in outcomes between medical and chiropractic care without physical therapy or modalities are not clinically meaningful, although chiropractic may result in a greater likelihood of perceived improvement, perhaps reflecting satisfaction or lack of blinding. Physical therapy may be more effective than medical care alone for some patients, while physical modalities appear to have no benefit in chiropractic care."

So, much like medical care (where the study is blinded, unlike chiropractic studies, where blinding apparently doesn't count), it doesn't work, but it makes patients feel better.

Here's a beautifully crafted demolition of the claims of the BCA regarding conditions it believes do have evidential support for chiropractic treatment.

Your ignorance is your ignorance. When 99% of funding for research goes to generically pharma research and the other 1% gets distributed to CAM's as a whole, how can you expect any CAM to have any significant amount of research on par with medical/pharmaceutical research?

How much do you believe the CAM market currently to be worth?
 
2010-04-15 10:58:40 AM
moops: doubled99: By the way, physical therapists are as much bullshiat as chiros.

BULLSHIAT. PTs give you exercises to strengthen problem areas. BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE WORK YOURSELF, AND REGULARLY.

Chiropractors convince people there is a magic fix, given you go into their office 5 times a week.


I've never met a chiropractor like this. I'm sure they exist, but of the three I've gone to in my life, such a "magic fix" attitude has never existed. All have shown me what they're doing before they do it, explained the bone/muscle/joint/nerve interactions involved (science!), and given me a list of exercises to do at home to help keep the problem fixed. That "five times a week" is typically only initially. I've never met a chiropractor who wasn't a strong advocate of exercise therapy, massage therapy, and proper nutrition. They also understand that surgery is sometimes necessary, but they try to keep it as a last resort option.

Physical therapists are great, but if your insurance doesn't cover the treatment it's very expensive. The chiropractors I've been to will charge something like $25 per visit.

There are good chiropractors and bad chiropractors, just as there are good medical doctors and bad medical doctors. Just because some are quacks doesn't mean the whole practice is a sham.

As ABCDEFQ said, there is research out there.
 
2010-04-15 11:04:04 AM
Once again, I know I feel better once my back is cracked. That is all.
 
2010-04-15 11:05:49 AM
The guy who invented Chiropractic believed that most, or perhaps even all, human illness was caused by mis-alignment of the spine.

That's right. No germ theory of disease. No virii. No bacteria. No dietary imbalances.

You have the flu? Let me massage your back.
Strep. throat? Well, lemme see...I can massage your back.
Ear infection? How about a back massage?
Meningitis? Have a back massage.
Cancer? I know just the thing, now just lie on this massage table for me...

The saner Chiropracters obviously don't subscribe to this nonsense, but it is out there. And before you think it can do no harm as long as it's only for skeletal issues...Link (new window)
 
2010-04-15 11:26:03 AM
AliasUndercover: Once again, I know I feel better once my back is cracked. That is all.

I feel better after a good dump, but i don't call my toilet "Dr. Crane."
 
2010-04-15 11:29:31 AM
towatchoverme: AliasUndercover: Once again, I know I feel better once my back is cracked. That is all.

I feel better after a good dump, but i don't call my toilet "Dr. Crane."


You went for the toilet angle when you could have mentioned Dr Sex? Weirdo!

;)
 
2010-04-15 12:19:39 PM
The original article is back up. (new window)
 
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