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(Reuters)   Taking advantage of New York smoking ban, bar patrons are running up tabs, stepping outside for a smoke and disappearing   (reuters.com) divider line 341
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8568 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 May 2003 at 10:44 AM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-05-02 12:01:43 PM  
"Champship

2Mango- you might overrun GeeMan as the biggest Nazi on this thread. I'm sure it isn't just smokers doing that. Its anyone who saw this as an opportunity to steal from others.

GeeMan- I guess you're gonna have to do your 8 miles on your treadmill so that you don't have to endure everyday people exercising their own free will"

My, who's the nazi here? Force me to excersise inside so some people can blow toxic fumes in the air?
 
2003-05-02 12:01:44 PM  
All right, I'll chime in.

Non-smokers, we don't have a real right to tell people they can't smoke. We can tell them how bad it is for them, and for us around them, and that's about it.

Smokers, you don't have a real right to tell non-smokers to just "deal with it". When they say you can't smoke in a bar, you get all pissy. How come we have to deal with something we don't like, and not you?

Everyone's got a bad habit - mine's nailbiting. I'm prone to infections on my fingertips, and they sting like hell sometimes, and after a particularly vigorous session, buffalo wings are out of the question. But the important point is I am not adversely affecting anyone else.

These laws are put in place for health reasons. Every time you gripe because you've got to go outside to smoke, consider how you'd feel if te guy at the bar next to you unzipped and pissed all over your leg, or rubbed one out all over your shoes. Except I've never heard of an allergic reaction to piss.

The thing that really makes me wonder about smokers? How on earth can you justify pissing that much money away? I've smoked once or twice, and frankly, didn't find the experience so freeing or uplifting.

And do you want to know who's fault these laws really are? The smokers. If I had a nickel for every time I said "excuse me, but would you mind either smoking over there, away from my table, or maybe putting it out?" and got back a nasty response, I'd be a wealthy man, indeed. Granted, there have been a few smokers I've come across who will move, or will put it out, and will take care of their garbage, but they are far outnumbered by the nasty smokers who don't give a rats ass about anyone but themselves.

Anyone from the Long Island area? Remember the big brush fires in the summer of '95? Want to guess how they started? Some jerk with a cigarette butt he felt the need to launch out his window.

And there is my final rant - if it makes you feel so good, or tastes so good, or relaxes you, or whatever, why is it the bulk of you smokers refuse to put out a cigarette in the ashtray of your car? This ain't brussels sprouts here, where no matter how nasty it may be, it's good for you.

Spend your $8 a day on something more worthwhile, make yourself a better person. And if I ask nice, and you're a jerk about your cigarette, don't mind me while I take my "right" to put it out with a nice, gooey wad of phlegm.
 
2003-05-02 12:02:11 PM  
Mangomango

Has there ever been a problem with non-smokers stepping outside for a breath of fresh air and then running out without paying? NOOOOOOO

WAHHHHH!!!! I don't like you you're a nazi!

I didn't realize the nazis were concerned with peoples health.


I think the nazi refers to the fact that these people are trying to force their views on other people. If people wanted smoke-free bars so much ... they would exist in abundance. Not a hard concept to wrap your head around.
Besides, I am sure that there are hundreds of things that people do that are bad for them. Like drinking too much. I say we ban it to um protect us from them, their driving and even to protect from themselves. I'm so enlightened. I deserve sainthood. Hell there are so many ways a person can kill themselves, let's just confine them to their houses. Everyone can enjoy long fulfilled lives.

/rant

This ban is like if people allergic to nuts demanded that nuts be removed from all products. I could die if I need nuts but I have a RIGHT to eat that Almond Joy there. Solution ban nuts from the frickin candy bar. Sheer genious.

Champship: Hehe I'm hard-core capitalist. The commie in my tag is just there because for some reason it amuses me.
 
2003-05-02 12:02:22 PM  
Any website with an Anime character on the splash page and thirty popups is gauranteed to never be visited by me ever again.

If you want to advertise on Fark, pay your ten bucks like everyone else.
 
2003-05-02 12:03:58 PM  
I believe that it should be left up to the proprietor. If I want a non-smoking bar, so be it. If I want to open a Menthol-Only bar, it's my choice. If there is no law against the substance and circumstance (so save your "shooting range:gun as bar:smoke" comparisons), then there should not/could not be a ban.
 
2003-05-02 12:04:42 PM  
need = eats

/tired
 
2003-05-02 12:05:06 PM  
BurnDown99

Please remove head from anus and notice where Champship called me a nazi. I was referring to that.

Champship- same old arguement from you guys. No one took away your precious smokes. But what about taking away my right to breathe? Why do I have to suffer so you can enjoy a smoke. Makes no sense. You don't have a right to intrude on my rights. Also the Nazi label doesn't apply because I couldn't care less what you do, I don't want to breathe toxic air in public places. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO MAKE THE AIR I BREATHE TOXIC.
 
2003-05-02 12:05:17 PM  
The smell of New Jersey is worse than the smell of cigarettes, and probably five times as harmful. Are we going to make New Jersey illegal?
 
2003-05-02 12:05:58 PM  
"Suicidal_Elmo
Let me say that I love these smoking bans. I wish they extended the bans to make smoking in lines illegal too. Ever since California banned smoking in all eating establishments things have been great. If you want to smoke, go ahead, but when I have to breath in your cancer stick, sorry but that's wrong."

Well then, I shouldn't have to breathe in exhaust fumes from cars, trucks, etc., but I have to every day. That's wrong too, but I don't see any laws banning that! I don't care either way (I'm a smoker), but I do have a problem with these "lifestyle" laws. Are they going to ban McDonald's next?
 
2003-05-02 12:07:12 PM  
The smart thing to do would be to have some smoking bars, and some non-smoking bars, as dictated by SUPPLY AND DEMAND. What's this called kids? Say it with me... "free market economics"
 
2003-05-02 12:07:30 PM  
BurnDown99

Please remove head from anus and notice where Champship called me a nazi. I was referring to that.


Good God, can everyone just chill out? It was a joke Mango*2, do me a favor and treat it like one. I think everyone needs to calm their nerves with a tasty smoke.
 
2003-05-02 12:07:58 PM  
And do you want to know who's fault these laws really are? The smokers. If I had a nickel for every time I said "excuse me, but would you mind either smoking over there, away from my table, or maybe putting it out?" and got back a nasty response, I'd be a wealthy man, indeed.

If anyone asked me to put out a cigarette anywhere where I'm still allowed to smoke, I'd put it out on their eye.

I guess that's rude, though. Sorry, everybody.
 
2003-05-02 12:09:21 PM  
"I couldn't care less what you do, I don't want to breathe toxic air in public places. "

You mean the car fumes on the street?

Or do you mean public place as in bar someone owns and opened to the public, that no one is forcing you to go to? Hey, if you came to my house for a dinner party, what would you do if I lit up at the table?
 
2003-05-02 12:09:28 PM  
Mangomango :
I don't want to breathe toxic air in public places


Say it with me Mango: A bar is not a public place. The public does not own bars unless it is owned by the government. A bar is a private establishment.
 
2003-05-02 12:09:33 PM  
cigs are a tool of the weak
 
2003-05-02 12:10:08 PM  
Godwin's Law..

05-02-03 11:05:50 AM Champship

This argument is now OVAAAAHHHHH...nonsmokers take it due to a technical.
 
2003-05-02 12:10:53 PM  
Geeman - noone's foprcing you to do anything. If you want to run with no risk fromothers, do it inside in the environment of your homr. In your personal property. Nice try, me forcing you to do anything. I'm not like that. I'm just trying to find a way for you to live WITHOUT imposing your will on others. You're welcome
 
2003-05-02 12:11:07 PM  
I think the smoking ban is a little redundant. Considering all the toxic smoke released into the air during 9/11/01 and from the exploding oil barge incident, I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation of NY'ers were *born* with lung cancer.
 
2003-05-02 12:11:41 PM  
"If I had a nickel for every time I said "excuse me, but would you mind either smoking over there, away from my table, or maybe putting it out?" and got back a nasty response, I'd be a wealthy man, indeed. Granted, there have been a few smokers I've come across who will move, or will put it out, and will take care of their garbage, but they are far outnumbered by the nasty smokers who don't give a rats ass about anyone but themselves."

Well I can only speak for myself when I say I respect non smokers wishes. I don't need to be told because I don't put myself in a position where I would need to be. (Except maybe when I'm in the middle of a field and GeeMan comes jogging by and starts screaming I'm ruining his health).
But the smokers who give you this attitude are no different than the asshat smokers and non smokers who get on the elevator before letting the people get off, get on the bus before letting people off, etc, etc. Jerks are jerks.
 
2003-05-02 12:13:07 PM  
AuntofDogface

There are laws concerning car exhaust - the emissions laws are getting stricter each year, as well they should. As far as I'm concerned, and many others, I'm sure, they aren't moving fast enough.

Just like with the laws for smoking, it's a gradual process. If the government, be it federal or local, wanted to be real asses about it, it could have been a "no smoking, nowhere, ever" deal. And had they attempted a law like that, I don't think I'd be awful surprised if it passed.

I'm not saying cigarettes should be cut out all together - you want to smoke, be my guest. But I don't want to breathe it in, and my kids will *not* breathe it in. My parents raised me, cared for me, and pretty much molded my life. I've got nothing but respect for them. But when one of them lights up in front of my kids, I toss them out of my house, or I leave theirs.

Knowing full well, as I'm sure all smokers do by now, that smoking is very bad for you, I really don't get why they are so worked up over it. Think of these laws as an excuse for you to save a few bucks each day, and be a little healthier.
 
2003-05-02 12:15:46 PM  
"Think of these laws as an excuse for you to save a few bucks each day, and be a little healthier."

Might be easier for smokers to think that way if the ridiculous cig taxes went to free nicotine patches instead of pointless anti-smoking ads and lining politicians pockets.
 
2003-05-02 12:16:21 PM  
2MAngo - Nazis removed guns from every citizens house because society as a whole shouldn't have to endure that risk. I don't smoke, you don't have the right to tell someone else what to do. It is the owner of the bars' decision. I'm sorry you don't respect others' property rights.
 
2003-05-02 12:18:59 PM  
Rhiannon,

Of course, you're 100% correct. But then, Mccallcl proved my point. It's the jerks who ruin it for everyone else.

Want a real kick? I think smoking should be legal in open air stadiums. Lots of fresh air means lots less risk. I don't believe smokers should be prevented from smoking, not at all - but I do believe non-smokers shouldn't be forced to "smoke", either, as a result of stagnant, second hand smoke.

The real problem isn't smoking vs. non-smoking - it's courtesy. More people need to learn a little about it.
 
2003-05-02 12:19:09 PM  
This whole banning things people are allergic to is the reason some kids can't eat PB&J in schools. Honestly - some schools have banned anything with nuts in any kid's lunch because a couple kids are allergic to nuts.
Nice world we live in. Make the many suffer for the few.
 
2003-05-02 12:20:38 PM  
Every time you gripe because you've got to go outside to smoke, consider how you'd feel if te guy at the bar next to you unzipped and pissed all over your leg

What if you went outside for a smoke and the guy at the bar next to you followed you outside and pissed all over your leg? That would suck.
 
2003-05-02 12:21:11 PM  
From the following website:

http://www.healthri.org/disease/tobacco/secondhandsmoke.htm

1. Read this
2. Justify your "free will" to smoke around non-smokers

End of my argument. Time to get out and enjoy some fresh air.


How your smoking affects others:
Everybody knows how smoking affects the smoker, but there is a growing body of scientific and medical evidence that shows just how harmful secondhand smoke really is.

If you're a parent or someone who is around children, you've got a big responsibility. Secondhand smoke is especially harmful to children. It causes 300,000 cases of pneumonia and bronchitis in children every year. These children are also more likely to get colds, allergies, asthma and ear infections. And babies of parents who smoke are twice as likely to die from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS).

Each year in the U.S., 3000 nonsmokers die from lung cancer caused by secondhand smoke, and smoke from the burning end of a cigarette has more toxins than smoke inhaled by the smoker. So, smoking in another room of the house when children are home still puts them at great risk. And smoking in the car, even with the window open, affects your passengers. Children are very vulnerable to the effects of secondhand smoke.

You know that when you quit smoking you are not only improving your health, but the life and health of those around you.

In 1993 the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) published a landmark report on the health effects of secondhand smoke, otherwise known as "Environmental Tobacco Smoke," or "ETS." The report, based on careful study of the best scientific evidence, concluded that exposure to ETS was widespread and caused devastating health effects, especially among children. Since then, new scientific evidence has only strengthened the EPA's conclusions.
 
2003-05-02 12:21:53 PM  
Jess
Doesn't the bar hold your credit card when you start a tab? I'm fairly certain they do, actually. That makes this act fairly retarded and definitely not news worthy.


Jebus, Jess, where do YOU live? Ashcroft-land???? Yikes! :D

No bar I've ever been in asks for a credit card to run a personal tab.
 
2003-05-02 12:22:32 PM  
Wmichaelis
but I do believe non-smokers shouldn't be forced to "smoke",


No body "forced" them to go there. Agreed it's not couteous. People piss me off all the time. Bad breath, bad dressers, Jennifer Lopez, etc. Doesn't mean you have a right to legislate.
What are you if you go to an establishment that permits smoking and get pissed when people are smoking? An idiot.
 
2003-05-02 12:22:34 PM  
Champship - Yes, but when it affects your health, you have a right to stop it.
 
2003-05-02 12:24:06 PM  
Fossil fuels were burnt to make the electricity for GeeMan to make that comment, I wonder what the EPA thinks about that...
 
2003-05-02 12:26:59 PM  
But then, Mccallcl proved my point. It's the jerks who ruin it for everyone else.

"Could you please move away from me? I don't like what you're doing right now, and my comfort should be important to you, a total stranger."

I guess you're right. What you don't realize is that it's rude to ask a stranger to do anything inconvenient. What would you do if I asked you and your family to move because I couldn't watch the hockey game? If you have any self-respect, you'd cover your kid's ears and tell me to kiss your ass.

Instead of nicely asking your legislature to violate the rights of business owners, why don't you do it for them by throwing a punch? What, it's not important enough to start a fight over? Than shut up and let me smoke for seven damned minutes. Whiner.
 
2003-05-02 12:27:21 PM  
CommieSquirrel

You're wrong, they are privately owned but indeed are public places subject to PUBLIC health inspections and PUBLIC fire codes.
 
2003-05-02 12:27:46 PM  
Good idea on their part - now they can afford to pay their medical bills when the lung disease and cancer and liver disease sets in!
 
2003-05-02 12:28:10 PM  
I liked the "smoking license" idea someone mentioned before. Let's do it one better - as a bar, charge a $8 cover to go inside, and give your patrons a pack of free smokes on the way. By charging a cover, you can safely say you are a private establishment, where nobody can just walk in off the street. And then, only smokers will go in, because who wants to buy a pack of smokes if they don't?
 
2003-05-02 12:29:14 PM  
Nothingyet:
You should have to make smoking illegal if you then want to ban it.

Pissing is also a legal activity, but you aren't allowed to piss on the floor in a bar, you have to go to the bathroom. Just because something is not illegal doesn't mean you can do it anywhere. Jerking-off is also not allowed at the bus stop, though maybe you think it should be?
 
2003-05-02 12:29:29 PM  
DYX - I hear what you're saying. But it is the decision of the owner. I don't smoke. You only have a right to stop it on your property. I know that is difficult, because what I'm saying is that to go to a concert you have to deal with the rules of the owner of the building/venue. If he wants to let people smoke, you gotta live with them. I guarantee I don't like smoking any more than you do. But I understand the profound ramifications of mob rule.
 
2003-05-02 12:30:58 PM  
DYXautic

Champship - Yes, but when it affects your health, you have a right to stop it.

You oversimplified and incorrect argument wins! Almost.

1. Second-hand smoke, in the context of visiting a bar or restaurant is harmless. It's just annoying, that's all. Like some rap music, and people speaking Spanish when you don't understand Spanish.

2. Placing yourself into a situation that may be harmful to your health is not protected by law. See: firsthand smoking is legal.
 
2003-05-02 12:31:16 PM  
Leave it up to us wacky New Yorkers to make the best of a bad situation.
 
2003-05-02 12:31:31 PM  
Anybody think that this may actually bring in more business to bars?? Think about it. Only about 20% of the population smokes. That's 80% that don't, and a huge number of them don't bother with bars any more because they don't want to come home reeking of smoke and they can't stand breathing it in when they're there.

I've been to smoke-free bars in cities where it's not outlawed, and they've all had huge crowds. Seems like a business opportunity to me.
 
2003-05-02 12:31:44 PM  
Mangomango

CommieSquirrel

You're wrong, they are privately owned but indeed are public places subject to PUBLIC health inspections and PUBLIC fire codes.


So are houses (the fire codes). However, they are undeniably private property. The health codes and fire codes are in place to protect the unsuspecting customers from the owner and any crap that he could try to pull in secret. However, to enforce this law to protect the non-smokers in bars is ridiculous. Why? Because non-smokers do not have a right to be there. If the area were truly publicly owned, then the non-smokers would have a right to be there if they wished and their health would be a valid concern.
 
2003-05-02 12:32:11 PM  
"Jebus, Jess, where do YOU live? Ashcroft-land???? Yikes! :D
No bar I've ever been in asks for a credit card to run a personal tab.
- ZipBeep

I guess it would depend on the area - most bars and clubs here the South Bay Area won't "run a tab" without a card on hand. Elsewhere in the country, maybe so.

And I guess for small towns/tight neighborhoods/regular customers, you know, "where everybody knows your name" (sorry), then running a tab is no big deal, cuz the owner or bartender knows you ain't skippin' out on it.
 
2003-05-02 12:33:06 PM  
Wmichaelis = genius.
 
2003-05-02 12:34:36 PM  
Mccallcl:

If you don't like smoke, don't go where the smoke is.

Bars aside, I've been on the street and had people puff one out right in my face. If smokers were in general more polite, they'd be more tolerable at bars by non-smokers.

If bar-owners were in favor of the smoking bans, there'd be non-smoking bars already.

There are such bars.

It hurts bar/restaraunt revenue and is proven to eliminate freedom.

Do you have facts to back this up? Other than a story about a few people skipping the check, are bars losing business?
 
2003-05-02 12:35:25 PM  
As usual, Fark never let's me down.

I try calmly, rationally explaining a point, rather, my opinion, and I'm called a whiner and an idiot.

Mccallcl, if you told me I was in your way, and you couldn't see, and were polite about it, I'd move. I've done it before, I'll do it again. I purposely don't take my children to restaurants, or movie theatres, because they are too young, and would cause a commotion. It's called courtesy. And it has nothing to do with self respect - I would tell you to kiss my ass if you said "hey, tiny, move your big ass" instead of "excuse me, but I can't see past you - would you mind moving please?".

CommieSquirrel

The idiot is the first one to start flaming. I'm stating my opinion, just as you did yours. I never called you personally an idiot, not did I say your opinion made you an idiot, and as a matter of fact, I never said anything discourteous or disrespectful to you or about you.
 
2003-05-02 12:35:46 PM  
"If bar-owners were in favor of the smoking bans, there'd be non-smoking bars already.

There are such bars."

Then what is the FARKING PROBLEM?
 
2003-05-02 12:36:05 PM  
If you are not allowed to smoke in Bars- then how are you supposed to know which girls Fark?
 
2003-05-02 12:36:57 PM  
Secondhand smoke is especially harmful to children. It causes 300,000 cases of pneumonia and bronchitis in children every year. These children are also more likely to get colds, allergies, asthma and ear infections. And babies of parents who smoke are twice as likely to die from Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS).

Solution: no babies should be allowed to drink alchohol in bars.
 
2003-05-02 12:37:44 PM  
oh yeah, ZipBeep, one other thing ...
"Jebus, Jess, where do YOU live? Ashcroft-land???? Yikes! :D
ok ha ha funny, but the hell does Ashcroft (I assume your angle is personal rights) have to do with guaranteed payment?

Merchants have a right to get paid for their services. if they don't want to serve you without payment up front, that's their choice.
 
2003-05-02 12:39:37 PM  
This is getting rediculous.

Who wants a chaw?
 
2003-05-02 12:41:18 PM  
05-02-03 12:21:53 PM ZipBeep
Jebus, Jess, where do YOU live? Ashcroft-land???? Yikes! :D

No bar I've ever been in asks for a credit card to run a personal tab.


ive seen that in almost every bar ive been in. unless its frequented mostly by known regulars.
 
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