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(ABC)   Germans convict 88-year-old former Waffen SS man of murdering Dutch civilians during the war. He'll get life in prison or six months, whichever is longer   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 353
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6664 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Mar 2010 at 11:07 AM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-03-23 10:30:17 AM  
Good. None of these monsters should die in their own bed.

I wish you a full 120 years of life, you monster.
 
2010-03-23 10:43:00 AM  
Well, may as well get this started... Not that I have any sympathy for this guy, but something seems odd about murder charges for killings during a declared state of war.
 
2010-03-23 10:44:11 AM  
Yeah, way to go. Whatever. I guess.

Hard to get too worked up over a common foot soldier who kills a few civilians in the heat of a war that took place generations ago.
 
2010-03-23 10:46:30 AM  
ne2d: but something seems odd about murder charges for killings during a declared state of war.

Just because there is a declared state of war doesn't mean it's fine to enlist in a special squad, then go around executing people for their views.

SchlingFocker: common foot soldier

Waffen SS hitman is definitely not a 'common foot soldier'
 
2010-03-23 10:46:37 AM  
ne2d: Well, may as well get this started... Not that I have any sympathy for this guy, but something seems odd about murder charges for killings during a declared state of war.

If he were a lawful combatant killing another lawful combatant in combat there wouldn't be. If a U.S. soldier kills a militant with an RPG, it's an enemy kill. If a U.S. soldier went into an unarmed civilian's house and shot and killed him, he would be charged with murder.
 
2010-03-23 10:48:54 AM  
Tatsuma: Waffen SS hitman is definitely not a 'common foot soldier'

I'm using that term to differentiate between him and the architects of the Holocaust.

I'd put him in a different category than, say, the Commandant of Auschwitz.
 
2010-03-23 10:54:19 AM  
SchlingFocker: I'm using that term to differentiate between him and the architects of the Holocaust.

Just as he definitely is in a different category than a 'common foot soldier' in the Wermacht, particularly those who were drafted.
 
2010-03-23 10:59:00 AM  
nekom: If he were a lawful combatant killing another lawful combatant in combat there wouldn't be. If a U.S. soldier kills a militant with an RPG, it's an enemy kill. If a U.S. soldier went into an unarmed civilian's house and shot and killed him, he would be charged with murder.

The legal status surrounding this dude was a clusterfark, from reading the article.

He was a Dutch citizen who joined up with the German army, and killed Dutch civilians while not in a lawful combatant status.

Further added to the mix is the fact that the Geneva convention articles defining lawful combatant status weren't adopted until 1949, AFTER this dude did the killing.

A lot of the laws used to try these guys were made up as they went along, often after the killings were committed. They allow for retribution, but not justice.
 
2010-03-23 11:10:17 AM  
Tatsuma: Just as he definitely is in a different category than a 'common foot soldier' in the Wermacht, particularly those who were drafted.

Ok, some exaggeration on my part. Still, he was a low-ranking soldier. He was given the orders and told to carry them out. He wasn't formulating policy.

I don't have a problem with him being tried under solid law, but I don't tend to view him as a monster. War and instability brings out the best and the worst in people. Always has, and always will.

We're kidding ourselves if we think this guy is fundamentally different from the vast majority of people surrounding us in our lives today.
 
2010-03-23 11:11:24 AM  
ne2d: Well, may as well get this started... Not that I have any sympathy for this guy, but something seems odd about murder charges for killings during a declared state of war.

wat
 
2010-03-23 11:13:09 AM  
Isn't that like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500?
 
2010-03-23 11:13:36 AM  
So, how about bringing the tens of thousands of Russian troops who slaughtered German civilians to justice? They don't seem to be doing a lot of that and I'm wondering when that's going to start happening.
 
2010-03-23 11:14:06 AM  
Heinrich Boere, number six on the Simon Wiesenthal Center's list of most-wanted Nazis, was given the maximum sentence of life in prison for the 1944 killings.

Jesus, that's a lot of dead dudes!

/yes, I'm joking
 
2010-03-23 11:14:10 AM  
To celebrate...this seems oddly appropriate:

tasty.soylentsoft.com
 
2010-03-23 11:14:14 AM  
SchlingFocker: We're kidding ourselves if we think this guy is fundamentally different from the vast majority of people surrounding us in our lives today.

Yes, I personally know people who I'm pretty sure would have been happily marching to the Nazis' drumbeat if they were born in Berlin in 1910.

We still need to prosecute war criminals.
 
2010-03-23 11:14:42 AM  
SchlingFocker: Tatsuma: Just as he definitely is in a different category than a 'common foot soldier' in the Wermacht, particularly those who were drafted.

Ok, some exaggeration on my part. Still, he was a low-ranking soldier. He was given the orders and told to carry them out. He wasn't formulating policy.

I don't have a problem with him being tried under solid law, but I don't tend to view him as a monster. War and instability brings out the best and the worst in people. Always has, and always will.

We're kidding ourselves if we think this guy is fundamentally different from the vast majority of people surrounding us in our lives today.


He's a Dutch citizen who joined Waffen SS (as a volunteer according to the article) and killed fellow citizens to help the invaders. I'd say he's pretty farked up. In America I'm pretty sure his ass would have been fried for treason long ago.
 
2010-03-23 11:14:45 AM  
Those crazy German pacifists and their fancy "trials" for "war criminals".

Don't they know it's best to just use a missile or a Predator or an assassination team to snuff the guy out in some hotel or park somewhere? That's how you deal with suspected war criminals and monsters.
 
2010-03-23 11:14:49 AM  
Senescent Dawn: wat

This one is a bit legally stretched.

A Dutch man who killed Dutch citizens in the Netherlands has been convicted of murder in a German court.

It doesn't pass the smell test.
 
2010-03-23 11:15:34 AM  
SchlingFocker: Ok, some exaggeration on my part. Still, he was a low-ranking soldier. He was given the orders and told to carry them out. He wasn't formulating policy.

The members of the Einstazgruppen machinegunning Jews next to ditches all day long weren't formulating policy either.

Mengeles wasn't formulating policy either.

People releasing the gas in the gas chambers were not formulating policy either.

SchlingFocker: We're kidding ourselves if we think this guy is fundamentally different from the vast majority of people surrounding us in our lives today.

I am willing to bet (hope?) that most people here wouldn't see a post from Himmler and think 'Cool, want some of that' and then join a hitsquad and assassinate innocents due to their views.
 
2010-03-23 11:16:18 AM  
Au revoir, Shosanna!
 
2010-03-23 11:16:33 AM  
Aw, Fark sent me a message wishing me a happy birthday! And I figured this probably the worst thread to say that in.
 
2010-03-23 11:17:19 AM  
Senescent Dawn: Yes, I personally know people who I'm pretty sure would have been happily marching to the Nazis' drumbeat if they were born in Berlin in 1910.

We still need to prosecute war criminals.


Hey, I don't have a problem with it. It just kind of loses its oomph when the conviction is generations later, and the convict is probably wearing diapers.

I would, however, like to know how in the hell a Dutch guy who killed Dutch civilians in the Netherlands was convicted in a German court.
 
2010-03-23 11:17:19 AM  
SchlingFocker: It doesn't pass the smell test.

www.orange-papers.org
"My dog has no nose."
 
2010-03-23 11:18:19 AM  
He'll get life in prison or six months, whichever is longer

So if he dies before 6 months is up they will keep his body in jail until then?
 
rpl
2010-03-23 11:18:53 AM  
Number six on Weisenthal's list killed three whole guys, huh? Wow.

The more I read about the unstoppable Nazi death machine of death, the more sense Suvorov's "icebreaker" theory makes.
 
2010-03-23 11:20:35 AM  
What a Dutch girl might look like, just in case we need some perspective here:

euro2008girls.com

/het
 
2010-03-23 11:20:43 AM  
SchlingFocker: A Dutch man who killed Dutch citizens in the Netherlands has been convicted of murder in a German court.

He was convicted by a Dutch court and the Germans weren't able to decide whether or not to extradite. Either way the issue of jurisdiction gets a little muddled when borders are moving by miles per day. I don't see a significant problem here.
 
2010-03-23 11:20:48 AM  
Tatsuma: I am willing to bet (hope?) that most people here wouldn't see a post from Himmler and think 'Cool, want some of that' and then join a hitsquad and assassinate innocents due to their views.

I'm willing to bet that there's many, many politicians in the world today who run totalitarian regimes who use a lot of Himmler's texts on propaganda, without launching new holocausts. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to find a few Himmler texts in Cheney's office.
 
2010-03-23 11:21:22 AM  
rpl: Number six on Weisenthal's list of war criminals still alive today who haven't been caught yet killed three whole guys, huh? Wow.

ftfy
 
2010-03-23 11:21:45 AM  
Those crazy Dutch. One of the more successful nations at surrendering its Jews to the Nazis for extermination. The French were much more adept at saving Jews. The French even screwed with the Nazi punch cards and IBM tabulation machines so as to really fark up the transfer of Jews.

Surrendering has its pluses.
 
2010-03-23 11:22:10 AM  
jakomo002: Those crazy German pacifists and their fancy "trials" for "war criminals".

Don't they know it's best to just use a missile or a Predator or an assassination team to snuff the guy out in some hotel or park somewhere? That's how you deal with suspected war criminals and monsters.


It might be cheaper to find some impressionable youths and pay them to assassinate him at his place of work, or apartment.
 
2010-03-23 11:22:51 AM  
There's your 88.
 
2010-03-23 11:23:32 AM  
i44.tinypic.com
 
2010-03-23 11:23:37 AM  
Tatsuma: ne2d: but something seems odd about murder charges for killings during a declared state of war.

Just because there is a declared state of war doesn't mean it's fine to enlist in a special squad, then go around executing people for their views.



And yet you have no problem with Israel doing the same thing to Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.
 
2010-03-23 11:23:38 AM  
Tatsuma: I am willing to bet (hope?) that most people here wouldn't see a post from Himmler and think 'Cool, want some of that' and then join a hitsquad and assassinate innocents due to their views.

Most people here didn't develop in the sociopolitical hornet's nest that was post WWI Europe.

The Nazi movement in Europe was a prime example of the fact that average, good people can make some terrible choices and support some terrible ideals given the right (or wrong, if you will) environmental factors.

I think it does a disservice to history and to the future to try and paint WWII-era Nazis as monsters. To paint them as monsters creates the illusion that this type of thing couldn't happen again in a society that's filled with "good" people.
 
2010-03-23 11:24:37 AM  
Hold on. Was this guy SS or Waffen-SS? Shades of gray, but there is a difference.
 
2010-03-23 11:24:42 AM  
SchlingFocker: A Dutch man who killed Dutch citizens in the Netherlands has been convicted of murder in a German court.

I'm no international extradition expert, but I'd imagine Germany prefers to incur the costs of prosecution and sentencing and incarceration of all Nazi war criminals, no matter where they commit their crimes. Their legal system is probably far more well-designed for it, what with 60 years of precedents and history in these prosecutions.
 
2010-03-23 11:25:31 AM  
grinderman: What a Dutch girl might look like, just in case we need some perspective here:



/het


Great googly moogly. She's built like a brick shiathouse!
 
2010-03-23 11:25:31 AM  
This thread has me hungry for waffles. Delicious fascist waffles.
 
2010-03-23 11:26:57 AM  
nekom: ne2d: Well, may as well get this started... Not that I have any sympathy for this guy, but something seems odd about murder charges for killings during a declared state of war.

If he were a lawful combatant killing another lawful combatant in combat there wouldn't be. If a U.S. soldier kills a militant with an RPG, it's an enemy kill. If a U.S. soldier went into an unarmed civilian's house and shot and killed him, he would be charged with murder.


No, that is murder too. Like the WMDs the RPG didn't exist, however these facts wont see the light of day for 40 years. At which point we will be sentencing American hit men to jail for the rest of their lives. But don't worry your children's children will demonize him the same way you demonize this guy. What he did was despicable so no one will fault you. That said I wouldn't be so quick to stand up for your own soldiers, not with stories like the ones that came out of abu ghraib and blackwater.
 
2010-03-23 11:27:01 AM  
chopit: grinderman: What a Dutch girl might look like, just in case we need some perspective here:



/het

Great googly moogly. She's built like a brick shiathouse windmill!
 
2010-03-23 11:27:28 AM  
Because the Allies never committed "war crimes." What a poor joke.
 
2010-03-23 11:27:40 AM  
SchlingFocker: Hey, I don't have a problem with it. It just kind of loses its oomph when the conviction is generations later, and the convict is probably wearing diapers.

That doesn't bother me, infact it makes convicting this guy all the more important since he basically got away with his crimes for over 50 years.
 
2010-03-23 11:28:44 AM  
One Thirty-two and Bush: Great googly moogly. She's built like a brick shiathouse windmill!

z.about.com

would hit it
 
2010-03-23 11:28:47 AM  
Boere has testified that he decided to join the SS as an 18-year-old after the Germans had overrun the Netherlands and he saw a recruiting poster signed by Heinrich Himmler that inspired him.

After fighting on the Russian front...


HA, that worked out good for him didn't it?
/dumbass.
 
2010-03-23 11:29:31 AM  
nekom: ne2d: Well, may as well get this started... Not that I have any sympathy for this guy, but something seems odd about murder charges for killings during a declared state of war.

If he were a lawful combatant killing another lawful combatant in combat there wouldn't be. If a U.S. soldier kills a militant with an RPG, it's an enemy kill. If a U.S. soldier went into an unarmed civilian's house and shot and killed him, he would be charged with murder.


What, the old man can't use the "enemy combatants" defense like we're doing? If there's one thing I learned from Fark it's that there are no innocents in war. Even that 12-year-old could be an enemy combatant so you should put a bullet in his Muslim head right now.

Of course I exaggerate.

Or do I?
 
2010-03-23 11:30:07 AM  
chopit: grinderman: What a Dutch girl might look like, just in case we need some perspective here:



/het

Great googly moogly. She's built like a brick shiathouse!


I'd hit it. Wooden shoe?
 
2010-03-23 11:30:50 AM  
Yes, I personally know people who I'm pretty sure would have been happily marching to the Nazis' drumbeat if they were born in Berlin in 1910.

We still need to prosecute war criminals.


Yes considering the American left wing establishment loved Hitler and his policies about 95% of fark would be Nazis. The love affair with vicious dictators continues today. See the love for Chavez today for example. Left wingers are trying to distance themselves now but read threads years ago and the left wing love for Chavez was apparent as it was for Hitler and Mussolini back in the 20 and 30s. It is sickening.
 
2010-03-23 11:34:14 AM  
walkingtall: Yes, I personally know people who I'm pretty sure would have been happily marching to the Nazis' drumbeat if they were born in Berlin in 1910.

We still need to prosecute war criminals.

Yes considering the American left wing establishment loved Hitler and his policies about 95% of fark would be Nazis. The love affair with vicious dictators continues today. See the love for Chavez today for example. Left wingers are trying to distance themselves now but read threads years ago and the left wing love for Chavez was apparent as it was for Hitler and Mussolini back in the 20 and 30s. It is sickening.


Link (new window)

Nazis we're a right wing party. So by left wing love what you really mean is right wing love. But hey the facts have never stopped right wingers from making asinine points before, why stop now.
 
2010-03-23 11:34:45 AM  
Small time murderer is small time.

I want Bush and Cheney in prison for life. Unlike this guy, these neocons are still a danger to the public.
 
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