FTA: He pointed out that acupuncture is unregulated in the UK and anyone can set themselves up as an acupuncturist without training or accreditation.

If true, that is pretty scary.

He says acupuncture has also been associated with hepatitis B.

from a different article providing a little bit more information on that comment: Writing in the British Medical Journal, Prof Patrick Woo and colleagues point out that more than 80 people globally may have contracted Hepatitis B from acupuncture since 1970.

So that's 2 people per year out of the whole world that may have contracted Hep B from acupuncture?

I did like the picture in the article of the bent needle that looks like it has been stuck in someone's eyeball...

Wow, so accupuncture is ACTUALLY useful for something then?

Do you know what they call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

There's a reason it's not proven to work.

The Swiss/Italian ice mummy, I think 6,000 years old - didn't that documentary, for a few seconds, reference blue tattoos on his skin that correlated with bone pain issues that they could tell he had while alive?

(I believe they pointed out that the tattoos were in places that correlated with locations that are accepted today as 'where they would stick you' for corresponding ailments?) also, there was no artistic pattern to the tattoos, just dots, suggesting that it was long term pain treatment

/forgive the grammar, on vicodin and struggling for articulation...

the documentary also pointed out that the mummy was European and if an example of acupuncture, predated known Chinese origins...

anyone know more?

Acupuncture is currently unregulated in the UK, but the government is consulting on the issue.
Of course actual medical treatment is regulated, because come on, we can't just trust these "doctor" guys. But bob here has some needles in the truck, he'll fix ya up right.

One more reason to not let those pricks near me.

Looks like all those doubters going around saying "alternative medicine doesn't do anything" have a lot of backtracking to do.

Acupuncture is one of the finest placebos money can buy.

2chris2: Acupuncture is one of the finest placebos money can buy.

Homeopathy is less risky. I mean, how often do you hear of an idiot, err, i mean patient dieing of drinking distilled water!

Knock, knock.

Who's there?

Professor

Professor Who?

Exactly.

Barakku:
Of course actual medical treatment is regulated, because come on, we can't just trust these "doctor" guys.

Maybe... maybe not^.

fta: Nine cases of Hepatitis C and 106 were possibly-linked to the clinic, which passed along infection by reusing syringes and single-use medicine vials. The outbreak required health officials to urge about 50,000 patients that they needed to be tested for Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C and HIV.

Looks like acupuncture has a ways to go before catching up to what those "doctor" guys do with their needles.

hardinparamedic: 2chris2: Acupuncture is one of the finest placebos money can buy.

Homeopathy is less risky. I mean, how often do you hear of an idiot, err, i mean patient dieing of drinking distilled water!

And yet...

NeedleGuy: Barakku:
Of course actual medical treatment is regulated, because come on, we can't just trust these "doctor" guys.

Maybe... maybe not^.

fta: Nine cases of Hepatitis C and 106 were possibly-linked to the clinic, which passed along infection by reusing syringes and single-use medicine vials. The outbreak required health officials to urge about 50,000 patients that they needed to be tested for Hepatitis B, Hepatitis C and HIV.

Looks like acupuncture has a ways to go before catching up to what those "doctor" guys do with their needles.

Acupuncture is bunk. Pure placebo. It's over, let it go.

My partner used to study acupuncture. Over time, after many discussions with myself and others, and investigations in to what the studies actually say (not what the media reports they say), she came around.

It was sad in a way, she had invested a lot of time and money into it. A lot of people find it near impossible to let something like acupuncture go after they've invested so heavily. But she was brave and honest enough with herself to break free. I'm very proud of her.

Fuller: But she was brave and honest enough with herself to break free. I'm very proud of her.

It's never easy to give up the needle.

Professor Woo believes the link with acupuncture often goes unrecognised because of the long incubation period of some of the transmitted infections.

Perfect name for someone who dedicates himself to discrediting quacks!

The Fabulous Randi Approves.

Fuller:
Acupuncture is bunk. Pure placebo. It's over, let it go.

My partner used to study acupuncture. Over time, after many discussions with myself and others, and investigations in to what the studies actually say (not what the media reports they say), she came around.


Lol! You really did have me Lol'ing. Yes... UCLA, Duke, Stanford and a host of other medical universities should all shut down their Acupuncture Research Centers because you and others say otherwise.

It's always a disappointment to me that so much quackery lives on in the world. Not just in the world, but the western world where people ought to know better.

So many people fall for this crap and are parted with their money for nothing. The fact that the practitioners usually believe in it makes no odds, it's still gross charlatanry backed up by selection bias and delusion.

Acupuncture is not pure placebo. It has been shown to be effective for chronic lower back pain in several randomized controlled trials. There probably is a real but unknown biologic reason behind this. Sadly, many of the promoters of acupuncture shill garbage science, thus discrediting the entire technique in the minds of skeptics.

JustinCase: The Swiss/Italian ice mummy, I think 6,000 years old - didn't that documentary, for a few seconds, reference blue tattoos on his skin that correlated with bone pain issues that they could tell he had while alive?

(I believe they pointed out that the tattoos were in places that correlated with locations that are accepted today as 'where they would stick you' for corresponding ailments?) also, there was no artistic pattern to the tattoos, just dots, suggesting that it was long term pain treatment

/forgive the grammar, on vicodin and struggling for articulation...

the documentary also pointed out that the mummy was European and if an example of acupuncture, predated known Chinese origins...

anyone know more?

Link (new window)

NeedleGuy: Fuller:
Acupuncture is bunk. Pure placebo. It's over, let it go.

My partner used to study acupuncture. Over time, after many discussions with myself and others, and investigations in to what the studies actually say (not what the media reports they say), she came around.


Lol! You really did have me Lol'ing. Yes... UCLA, Duke, Stanford and a host of other medical universities should all shut down their Acupuncture Research Centers because you and others say otherwise.

Its not my opinion. Its unavoidable fact.

Acupuncture has no good evidence nor plausible biological mechanism. Just like homeopathy, reiki, crystal healing, and so on. It hails from a pre-scientific age, is based on supernatural ideas (meridians, chi) and is not supported empirically at all.

Deal with it.

anonwums: Acupuncture is not pure placebo. It has been shown to be effective for chronic lower back pain in several randomized controlled trials. There probably is a real but unknown biologic reason behind this. Sadly, many of the promoters of acupuncture shill garbage science, thus discrediting the entire technique in the minds of skeptics.

I concede that cherry picked studies to appear to support (extremely limited) efficacy in very particular cases, as do all serious skeptics. But overall, what you are looking at is a placebo effect. You can not get around this conclusion when you consider the evidence seriously.

NeedleGuy: Lol! You really did have me Lol'ing. Yes... UCLA, Duke, Stanford and a host of other medical universities should all shut down their Acupuncture Research Centers because you and others say otherwise.

PS: you know they have university courses on astrology in India?

Your argument from authority is a logical fallacy.

Just sayin.

Fuller: anonwums: Acupuncture is not pure placebo. It has been shown to be effective for chronic lower back pain in several randomized controlled trials. There probably is a real but unknown biologic reason behind this. Sadly, many of the promoters of acupuncture shill garbage science, thus discrediting the entire technique in the minds of skeptics.

I concede that cherry picked studies to appear to support (extremely limited) efficacy in very particular cases, as do all serious skeptics. But overall, what you are looking at is a placebo effect. You can not get around this conclusion when you consider the evidence seriously.

By the way, if something has been studied enough, you are bound to find a small minority of studies that appear to support whatever it is being tested. You can find the same thing for homeopathy, say. It doesn't mean homeopathy works - its just a point on a bell curve.

Thats why you need a meta-analysis or two. These have been done. The results, as far as acupuncture is concerned? I think you can guess..

anonwums: Acupuncture is not pure placebo. It has been shown to be AS effective AS PLACEBO for chronic lower back pain in several randomized controlled trials.

FTFY.

It's pure placebo dude. Read the studies.

As one who has had acupuncture for a variety of muscle tweaks, strains, and tension, I will attest that it does work. I found it to be far more effective than chemical remedies (muscle relaxants and the like). It's only anecdotal, but for muscle tension, as far as my experience goes, it's the best remedy I have used to date.

(note: this was from a well-trained acupuncturist I visited while living in Korea, not some shady dude in a back alley)

Now, that said, do I think it will cure cancer or regulate sugar in diabetics? No. But it can be an effective remedy if used correctly to treat the ailments for which it is suited.

homerjaythompson: As one who has had acupuncture for a variety of muscle tweaks, strains, and tension, I will attest that it does work.

BZZT, testimonial, done in the first sentence.

Isn't it ironic that today we learned that James Randi likes receiving pricks.

If you'reFuller: anonwums: Acupuncture is not pure placebo. It has been shown to be effective for chronic lower back pain in several randomized controlled trials. There probably is a real but unknown biologic reason behind this. Sadly, many of the promoters of acupuncture shill garbage science, thus discrediting the entire technique in the minds of skeptics.

I concede that cherry picked studies to appear to support (extremely limited) efficacy in very particular cases, as do all serious skeptics. But overall, what you are looking at is a placebo effect. You can not get around this conclusion when you consider the evidence seriously.

If you're not familiar with the Cochrane Reviews, they are probably one of the largest proponents of evidence based medicine. They only cherry pick their studies in the sense that they select studies that are well designed and controlled. If you actually read the link I posted, you will see that they did a meta-analysis of studies and showed that it works. There are other well-controlled studies that show a similar thing. Even the NIH concedes that it works, although not through the mechanism that the practitioners promote.

JustinCase: The Swiss/Italian ice mummy, I think 6,000 years old - didn't that documentary, for a few seconds, reference blue tattoos on his skin that correlated with bone pain issues that they could tell he had while alive?

(I believe they pointed out that the tattoos were in places that correlated with locations that are accepted today as 'where they would stick you' for corresponding ailments?) also, there was no artistic pattern to the tattoos, just dots, suggesting that it was long term pain treatment

/forgive the grammar, on vicodin and struggling for articulation...

the documentary also pointed out that the mummy was European and if an example of acupuncture, predated known Chinese origins...

anyone know more?

Hey I'm on vicodin too! I was drunk last night, wrestling with my buddy, he tackled me straight on while I was in a crouch and totally farked my ankle up. Drunk 6 am hospital visits are always fun. Care to share your tale?

/maybe I should get acupuncture done
//end threadjack

anonwums: If you're not familiar with the Cochrane Reviews, they are probably one of the largest proponents of evidence based medicine. They only cherry pick their studies in the sense that they select studies that are well designed and controlled. If you actually read the link I posted, you will see that they did a meta-analysis of studies and showed that it works. There are other well-controlled studies that show a similar thing. Even the NIH concedes that it works, although not through the mechanism that the practitioners promote.

Huh! Yes, I respect the conclusions of the Cochrane reviews. Lets look at the actual conclusion though:

Thirty-five RCTs covering 2861 patients were included in this systematic review. There is insufficient evidence to make any recommendations about acupuncture or dry-needling for acute low-back pain. For chronic low-back pain, results show that acupuncture is more effective for pain relief than no treatment or sham treatment, in measurements taken up to three months. The results also show that for chronic low-back pain, acupuncture is more effective for improving function than no treatment, in the short-term. Acupuncture is not more effective than other conventional and "alternative" treatments. When acupuncture is added to other conventional therapies, it relieves pain and improves function better than the conventional therapies alone. However, effects are only small. Dry-needling appears to be a useful adjunct to other therapies for chronic low-back pain.

This is basically in line with what I said (except for my claim that they were cherry picked studies, which I happily retract). Small, short lived effect, not more effective than conventional treatment...and for one lonely specific ailment.

I'll give you that.

anonwums:


If you're not familiar with the Cochrane Reviews, they are probably one of the largest proponents of evidence based medicine. They only cherry pick their studies in the sense that they select studies that are well designed and controlled. If you actually read the link I posted, you will see that they did a meta-analysis of studies and showed that it works. There are other well-controlled studies that show a similar thing. Even the NIH concedes that it works, although not through the mechanism that the practitioners promote.

From Cochrane - "Search strategy - We updated the searches from 1996 to February 2003...
...Because most of the studies were of lower methodological quality, there certainly is a further need for higher quality trials in this area."

And here it is - Link (new window)

juan: From Cochrane - "Search strategy - We updated the searches from 1996 to February 2003...
...Because most of the studies were of lower methodological quality, there certainly is a further need for higher quality trials in this area."

And here it is - Link (new window)

Aaaand I retract my previous concession, all the stronger for being able to adapt to new information as it comes to me.

/yay go science

Barakku: Acupuncture is currently unregulated in the UK, but the government is consulting on the issue.
Of course actual medical treatment is regulated, because come on, we can't just trust these "doctor" guys. But bob here has some needles in the truck, he'll fix ya up right.

I think the gist of it is "any idiot should know these unlicensed guys are full of shiat. If they weren't, they'd have a license."

Fuller: NeedleGuy: Lol! You really did have me Lol'ing. Yes... UCLA, Duke, Stanford and a host of other medical universities should all shut down their Acupuncture Research Centers because you and others say otherwise.

PS: you know they have university courses on astrology in India?

Your argument from authority is a logical fallacy.

Just sayin.

In fact, wasn't it Dr Rhine (new window) that did all the ESP study for years at Duke? Dr. Venkman would be proud.

juan: Link (new window)

From your link:

The Neolithic origin hypothesis is supported by the presence of nonfigurative tattoos on the Tyrolean Ice Man¬"an inhabitant of the Oetztal Alps in Europe¬"whose naturally preserved 5,200-year-old body displays a set of small cross-shaped tattoos that are located significantly proximal to classical acupuncture points.

Medical imaging shows that the middle-aged man suffered from lumbar arthrosis and the cross-shaped tattoos are located at points traditionally indicated for this condition.

I KNEW I didn't imagine that - thanks!

Still no cure for cancer


can't believe i'm in first with . . . wait, what?

Meh - same thing

Scruffinator: Hey I'm on vicodin too! I was drunk last night, wrestling with my buddy, he tackled me straight on while I was in a crouch and totally farked my ankle up. Drunk 6 am hospital visits are always fun.

At least you were having fun (hope you get better soon)- mine was just surgery... it's knocked me on my ass. I don't know what the big deal is about vicodin. For me it only somewhat ameliorates sharp stabbing pains and makes me stupid and sleepy. I've yet to have one epiphany on vicodin, seems to work for House all the time...

Google search for that term on the National Institute for Health site: acupuncture site:www.nih.gov (new window)

from a cursory glance at the results, seems like they want to know HOW it works. Isn't that the same with a lot of current treatments anyway? they know it works they just can't say how? sounds familiar

NeedleGuy: Fuller:
Acupuncture is bunk. Pure placebo. It's over, let it go.

My partner used to study acupuncture. Over time, after many discussions with myself and others, and investigations in to what the studies actually say (not what the media reports they say), she came around.


Lol! You really did have me Lol'ing. Yes... UCLA, Duke, Stanford and a host of other medical universities should all shut down their Acupuncture Research Centers because you and others say otherwise.

The Stanford Center for Integrative Medicine is not a research center. It's a clinic that's part of the Stanford Hospital. They only provide "treatment" for which they'll gladly take your money.

The one acupuncturist on staff at the clink studied in China (no surprise), but also claims "in 2002 he received a doctorate in Alternative Medicine from Liberty University."

The last time I checked (about two minutes ago), Liberty University is an ultra-conservative Baptist theology school. They don't offer a PhD in any health profession, much less "Alternative Medicine".

I think someone needs to check the info on the resumes better.

rdu_voyager: The last time I checked (about two minutes ago), Liberty University is an ultra-conservative Baptist theology school. They don't offer a PhD in any health profession, much less "Alternative Medicine".

I think someone needs to check the info on the resumes better.

Sounds like a mail order degree.

Hot!
(Link (new window) for the full link)

I just tried acupuncture for the first time today. I am pleased with the results so far. Weirdest thing ever, but it was also pretty damn cool. If it is a placebo, then fine.

It's making me feel better and it's done by a very well trained person, so good enough. Also, its a sliding scale sort of place, which makes me happy too.

Here in Oregon, people have to be licensed to practice this.

screechingbitermonkey: If it is a placebo, then fine.

It's this type of thinking that convinces people to drink their own urine.

screechingbitermonkey: Here in Oregon, people have to be licensed to practice this.

But the license is meaningless if the practice is bunk.

Acupuncture works and can extend life with the right frame of mind.
Period.
And I've got thousands of years of Chinese medical history and eight "Hellraiser" movies to prove you wrong.