This is really bullshiat. The FDA has a responsibility to closely monitor this given the exuberant rates that accompany organic products. I would really like to see "organic" as still meaning something in 5 years as opposed to how the meaningless term "All natural" is used today.

I'm not a crazy organic everything guy, but there are some things I would prefer to get sans pesticide use, particularly root veggies

Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

THIS

MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Exactly. Cigars are incredibly organic. So is a pile of dung.

Drink_Outside_The_Box: So is a pile of dung.

Nancy Pelosi is organic?

zymosan: This is really bullshiat. The FDA has a responsibility to closely monitor this given the exuberant exorbitant rates that accompany organic products. I would really like to see "organic" as still meaning something in 5 years as opposed to how the meaningless term "All natural" is used today.

I'm not a crazy organic everything guy, but there are some things I would prefer to get sans pesticide use, particularly root veggies

FTFY

Clete Orris: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

THIS

From Dictionary.com

Organic
1.noting or pertaining to a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals, but that now includes all other compounds of carbon.
2.characteristic of, pertaining to, or derived from living organisms: organic remains found in rocks.
3.of or pertaining to an organ or the organs of an animal, plant, or fungus.
4.of, pertaining to, or affecting living tissue: organic pathology.
5.Psychology. caused by neurochemical, neuroendocrinologic, structural, or other physical impairment or change: organic disorder. Compare functional (def. 5).
6.Philosophy. having an organization similar in its complexity to that of living things.
7.characterized by the systematic arrangement of parts; organized; systematic: elements fitting together into a unified, organic whole.
8.of or pertaining to the basic constitution or structure of a thing; constitutional; structural: The flaws in your writing are too organic to be easily remedied.
9.developing in a manner analogous to the natural growth and evolution characteristic of living organisms; arising as a natural outgrowth.
10.viewing or explaining something as having a growth and development analogous to that of living organisms: an organic theory of history.
11.pertaining to, involving, or grown with fertilizers or pesticides of animal or vegetable origin, as distinguished from manufactured chemicals: organic farming; organic fruits.
12.Law. of or pertaining to the constitutional or essential law or laws of organizing the government of a state.
13.Architecture. noting or pertaining to any work of architecture regarded as analogous to plant or animal forms in having a structure and a plan that fulfill perfectly the functional requirements for the building and that form in themselves an intellectually lucid, integrated whole.
14.Fine Arts. of or pertaining to the shapes or forms in a work of art that are of irregular contour and seem to resemble or suggest forms found in nature.
-noun
15.a substance, as a fertilizer or pesticide, of animal or vegetable origin.

"This" is a little oversimplified, don't you think??

Mans, how am I going to know if these volatile compounds are actually organic or not?

Maybe I'll ask my cute-as-a-button chemical engineer friend. She works for a business that knows from organic.

An oil refinery.

MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Seriously.

Anybody who thinks "organic" means that their food is cleaner, or better, or healthier, is a moron.

LavenderWolf: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Seriously.

Anybody who thinks "organic" means that their food is cleaner, or better, or healthier, is a moron.

On a few rare occasions, when a company is making something organic, they also go the extra mile to make it premium as well. Stonyfield Farms' organic dairy products will almost certainly win a side-by-side taste test with store brands. I also know people who swear up and down they can taste the difference between cage-free eggs and regular, but I've never tested it.

Still, when it's like organic bananas or something, my thought is "Great, so I'm getting the ones the bugs didn't want, am I?"

As much as I'm for stronger regulation of food labeling, does this really matter?

People don't understand what "organic" means in the first place.

Look at the vast majority of people who are shocked when you inform them that pesticides can and are used on organic food, quite legally.

With thousands of pages of regulations, dozens of forms that need to be filled out and filed with every activity, registration fees for every premise and every activity, records that must be kept of every bug that shows up in your vegetable patch and what you did to get rid of it and more forms to be filled out every time your dairy goat farts, why would anyone be tempted to in any way cheat the system?

EighthundredmillionthFarker: From Dictionary.com

...

"This" is a little oversimplified, don't you think??

No. Dictionaries document usage, including hijacked and/or misleading terms. (See: cracker vs hacker, or theory vs theory).

Please note that the molecule-containing-carbon definition is the first definition, rather than the 11th.

Your clue that this is a hijacked-by-scammers word should be the fact that dictionary.com recognizes fifteen distinct (and often mutually contradictory) definitions for the single term.

Notice that every definition past the fifth is all about the attempt to hijack the word as a sciency-sounding tool of persuasion. Every definition from the sixth is used solely to market products or ideas.

Mr. Right: With thousands of pages of regulations, dozens of forms that need to be filled out and filed with every activity, registration fees for every premise and every activity, records that must be kept of every bug that shows up in your vegetable patch and what you did to get rid of it and more forms to be filled out every time your dairy goat farts, why would anyone be tempted to in any way cheat the system?

Uh?

What?

PJ_the_Barbarian: LavenderWolf: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Seriously.

Anybody who thinks "organic" means that their food is cleaner, or better, or healthier, is a moron.

On a few rare occasions, when a company is making something organic, they also go the extra mile to make it premium as well. Stonyfield Farms' organic dairy products will almost certainly win a side-by-side taste test with store brands. I also know people who swear up and down they can taste the difference between cage-free eggs and regular, but I've never tested it.

Still, when it's like organic bananas or something, my thought is "Great, so I'm getting the ones the bugs didn't want, am I?"

I don't buy much organic produce, but I always get organic milk.
I can clearly taste a difference in it and regular milk especially
when it comes to whole milk. The fat, or something, is better tasting.

As per eggs, I can't taste a difference, but those eggland's best,
and similar, have a darker, richer looking yolk than the
regular ones. Their shells are harder too. With the exception of
them being bright white, they remind me of home/farm eggs.

MooseUpNorth: EighthundredmillionthFarker: From Dictionary.com

...

"This" is a little oversimplified, don't you think??

No. Dictionaries document usage, including hijacked and/or misleading terms. (See: cracker vs hacker, or theory vs theory).

Please note that the molecule-containing-carbon definition is the first definition, rather than the 11th.

Your clue that this is a hijacked-by-scammers word should be the fact that dictionary.com recognizes fifteen distinct (and often mutually contradictory) definitions for the single term.

Notice that every definition past the fifth is all about the attempt to hijack the word as a sciency-sounding tool of persuasion. Every definition from the sixth is used solely to market products or ideas.

I'm just open to the fact that words have the ability to evolve over time, and take on different meanings.

You go to the store and you see "organic" food and everything else, and in that context you pick out the stuff that you want. That's pretty much it.

MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Wow I can repeat a 10 year old joke that wasn't funny in the first place. Look how witty I am!

EighthundredmillionthFarker: MooseUpNorth: EighthundredmillionthFarker: From Dictionary.com

...

"This" is a little oversimplified, don't you think??

No. Dictionaries document usage, including hijacked and/or misleading terms. (See: cracker vs hacker, or theory vs theory).

Please note that the molecule-containing-carbon definition is the first definition, rather than the 11th.

Your clue that this is a hijacked-by-scammers word should be the fact that dictionary.com recognizes fifteen distinct (and often mutually contradictory) definitions for the single term.

Notice that every definition past the fifth is all about the attempt to hijack the word as a sciency-sounding tool of persuasion. Every definition from the sixth is used solely to market products or ideas.

I'm just open to the fact that words have the ability to evolve over time, and take on different meanings.

You go to the store and you see "organic" food and everything else, and in that context you pick out the stuff that you want. That's pretty much it.


They call it organic, so the dictionary folk add to the definition of organic.

You then use the dictionary definition as proof that something is organic.

Do you see, yet, what the problem is? People like you are letting marketers change the language we speak. For example, there is no such thing as "viral advertisement". There's literally nothing new to it. People pass on things they like on the internet. Been happening since before I started back in '95.

When you alter a word's meaning to include several contradictory definitions, that's not the evolution of language, that's the collapse of it. Words carry meaning, and you shouldn't be able to simply change it because somebody wanted to sell some apples he forgot to spray with pesticide.

EighthundredmillionthFarker: I'm just open to the fact that words have the ability to evolve over time, and take on different meanings.

You're thinking that fifteen definitions, ten of them originating from marketing and all ten being sharp contradictions of the original... dare I say organic... meaning, is evolution of a term?

Evolution is about building up gradual changes over a great deal of time. Not "*poof* You're a crocaduck".

As I said: marketers need to make up their own bloody words rather than ruining useful scientific terms.

MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Then can we take back conventional, as in conventional farming?

As if humans have been farming with chemicals for the bulk of our existence.

LavenderWolf: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Seriously.

Anybody who thinks "organic" means that their food is cleaner, or better, or healthier, is a moron.

Any time someone tells me that something is 'natural' or 'organic' like it's supposed to make it better, I start listing off all the poisonous plants I can think of that are also natural and organic.

Sergent D: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Wow I can repeat a 10 year old joke that wasn't funny in the first place. Look how witty I am!

It's not so much a "joke" as an "expression of dismay that society is sufficiently uneducated that some vaguely science-y words can make something sound better, while others can make something sound dangerous"

"Organic" is like the positive variation of the old "dihydrogen monoxide" hoax. What it does is cause an emotional response for no sane reason.

Sergent D: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Wow I can repeat a 10 year old joke that wasn't funny in the first place. Look how witty I am!

Now if only you can find a way to be the witty one that thinks of it first, you could get all the backpats for yourself.... *pulls out monocle*

bonkmeist: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Then can we take back conventional, as in conventional farming?

As if humans have been farming with chemicals for the bulk of our existence.

oh god not chemicals. Anything but chemicals

OniNeko: LavenderWolf: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Seriously.

Anybody who thinks "organic" means that their food is cleaner, or better, or healthier, is a moron.

Any time someone tells me that something is 'natural' or 'organic' like it's supposed to make it better, I start listing off all the poisonous plants I can think of that are also natural and organic.

I did that once.

Except I just went with tigers.

100%, all natural, and will eat the hell out of you.

Sergent D: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Wow I can repeat a 10 year old joke that wasn't funny in the first place. Look how witty I am!

1) I wasn't joking.
2) The "organic" marketers have been abusing the term since the early 1990s, when I first started biatching about it.
3) Hippie.

LavenderWolf: OniNeko: LavenderWolf: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Seriously.

Anybody who thinks "organic" means that their food is cleaner, or better, or healthier, is a moron.

Any time someone tells me that something is 'natural' or 'organic' like it's supposed to make it better, I start listing off all the poisonous plants I can think of that are also natural and organic.

I did that once.

Except I just went with tigers.

100%, all natural, and will eat the hell out of you.

The crowd I have to pull that on is usually talking about marijuana and how "It's natural, how can it be bad for you?" to which I usually respond, "Go smoke some hemlock and get back to me on that."

MooseUpNorth: Sergent D: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Wow I can repeat a 10 year old joke that wasn't funny in the first place. Look how witty I am!

1) I wasn't joking.
2) The "organic" marketers have been abusing the term since the early 1990s, when I first started biatching about it.
3) Hippie.

Have you considered just letting it go?

Let it go man... c'mon, let's hug it out.

bonkmeist: Then can we take back conventional, as in conventional farming?

I'd have no problem with that.

Except...

As if humans have been farming with chemicals for the bulk of our existence.

Uh, just so you know: Poop is a chemical. So is dirt. So is water.

Other than that, have fun.

PJ_the_Barbarian: oh god not chemicals. Anything but chemicals

I can tell from your nuanced position you know a lot about horticulture.

MooseUpNorth: Uh, just so you know: Poop is a chemical. So is dirt. So is water.

Other than that, have fun.

Everyone thinks it is super cute when you get all literal.

bonkmeist: PJ_the_Barbarian: oh god not chemicals. Anything but chemicals

I can tell from your nuanced position you know a lot about horticulture.

I've heard it said that one can lead a horticulture but one cannot make her think.

bonkmeist: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Then can we take back conventional, as in conventional farming?

As if humans have been farming with chemicals for the bulk of our existence.

God, you're an idiot.

Oh noes, chemicals! That's a buzzword, you twat. From the wiki, "A chemical substance is a material with a specific chemical composition."

So, basically... EVERYTHING IN FARKING EXISTENCE, YOU TWATS.

That shiat you left in the toilet? Has a chemical composition. Would make passable fertilizer, with a few more nutrients added to the mix.

Do you know where the DANGEROUS OMGOMGOMGZOMG chemicals came from? Do you know what they are, what they do, why you're such a pussy that you're afraid of them?

/I have such hate, a raw seething hatred, for this hippie new aged food fetish.
//There is one way to feed our race.
///Happy little 'green' farms are a fairytale inside a daydream when it comes to feeding all mankind.

MooseUpNorth: bonkmeist: Then can we take back conventional, as in conventional farming?

I'd have no problem with that.

Except...

As if humans have been farming with chemicals for the bulk of our existence.

Uh, just so you know: Poop is a chemical. So is dirt. So is water.

Other than that, have fun.

Poop is natural. So is breast feeding. This all sounds pretty familiar.

OniNeko: LavenderWolf: OniNeko: LavenderWolf: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Seriously.

Anybody who thinks "organic" means that their food is cleaner, or better, or healthier, is a moron.

Any time someone tells me that something is 'natural' or 'organic' like it's supposed to make it better, I start listing off all the poisonous plants I can think of that are also natural and organic.

I did that once.

Except I just went with tigers.

100%, all natural, and will eat the hell out of you.

The crowd I have to pull that on is usually talking about marijuana and how "It's natural, how can it be bad for you?" to which I usually respond, "Go smoke some hemlock and get back to me on that."

heh, yeah that's a pretty stupid argument against the dangers of smoking pot.

I think tens of thousands of years of history is enough evidence for me that it's not that bad.

MooseUpNorth: Uh, just so you know: Poop is a chemical. So is dirt. So is water.

Other than that, have fun.

Synthetic Pre-Mineralized Salt Solutions.

Better?

EighthundredmillionthFarker: Have you considered just letting it go?

I should only bring it up in Fark threads whose articles talk about the misuse of "Organic" labeling?

/ I think I can manage that.
// Thanks for the advice, I'll get right on that.

OniNeko: Poop is natural. So is breast feeding. This all sounds pretty familiar.

So if I make it inside of me with my intestines, it's "natural" but if I make it on the table in front of me with a test tube and a Bunsen burner it's "unnatural"

LavenderWolf: Mr. Right: With thousands of pages of regulations, dozens of forms that need to be filled out and filed with every activity, registration fees for every premise and every activity, records that must be kept of every bug that shows up in your vegetable patch and what you did to get rid of it and more forms to be filled out every time your dairy goat farts, why would anyone be tempted to in any way cheat the system?

Uh?

What?

In 2002 the USDA took over the regulation and definition of organic as it relates to food products and certification of same. Prior to that, going back to the 70s, local and state groups had their own definitions and certified their members. Prior to 2002, what customers thought of as organic may or may not have been in synch with whatever certification group they were buying from thought of as organic. Under the guise of protecting the consumer, USDA decided to co-opt the term organic and come up with a common definition of the term.

Like any other bureaucratic endeavor, the USDA promulgation of "organic" regulations expanded to fill all available blank paper, require endless forms and proof of compliance, documentation of every activity, etc. etc. When the USDA rules went into force in 2002, it became apparent that a lot of industrial food producers had weaseled their way into the regulations so that they could take advantage of the growing marketplace. Most consumers equated the term organic with cleaner, purer, healthier, more environmentally friendly, etc. By being able to label their food as organic, a lot of the industrial producers capitalized on that perception. Profits on those products are good for small producers; incredible for mass producers.

Some "organic" producers are convinced that nobody can possibly monitor the massive documentation and compliance required so they feel free to cheat. Other, long time organic producers insist on being allowed to call themselves organic because they've been doing it for 40 years but they have no intention of complying with what they perceive as onerous regulations.

A couple of new, private groups have been established as certifying bodies for their own "brand." An example is AWA, or Animal Welfare Approved. I am not a member, nor do I adhere to their program, they are just an example. AWA has written regulations for all commonly raised livestock species. They are closely modeled after USDA organic regulations but have a few differences. The most significant difference is a huge reduction in the cost of compliance. By getting chefs and other consumers to buy into their brand, tbey have established their credibility and they circumvent the USDA organic requirements while still following USDA regs common to all food production. Consumers are assured that producers adhere to the standards, producers find a broader and more lucrative market for their products.

Regs aren't necessarily a bad thing. But when they significantly drive up the cost of production, they become a nuisance to be circumvented.

OniNeko: MooseUpNorth: bonkmeist: Then can we take back conventional, as in conventional farming?

I'd have no problem with that.

Except...

As if humans have been farming with chemicals for the bulk of our existence.

Uh, just so you know: Poop is a chemical. So is dirt. So is water.

Other than that, have fun.

Poop is natural. So is breast feeding. This all sounds pretty familiar.

POOP THREAD

LavenderWolf: OniNeko: LavenderWolf: OniNeko: LavenderWolf: MooseUpNorth: Organic basically means "contains carbon". Get your own terms.

Seriously.

Anybody who thinks "organic" means that their food is cleaner, or better, or healthier, is a moron.

Any time someone tells me that something is 'natural' or 'organic' like it's supposed to make it better, I start listing off all the poisonous plants I can think of that are also natural and organic.

I did that once.

Except I just went with tigers.

100%, all natural, and will eat the hell out of you.

The crowd I have to pull that on is usually talking about marijuana and how "It's natural, how can it be bad for you?" to which I usually respond, "Go smoke some hemlock and get back to me on that."

heh, yeah that's a pretty stupid argument against the dangers of smoking pot.

I think tens of thousands of years of history is enough evidence for me that it's not that bad.

At this point I'd like to go on record as having nothing against marijuana. However, I have everything against bad logic.

bonkmeist: Synthetic Pre-Mineralized Salt Solutions.

Sure. Have fun.

Jeez.

Who is easier to troll, the "hippies" or the people who have actually shown up to this thread.

Can I just say I'm am so sick of hearing "sustainable" in all things related to food and restaurants that I can't stand it.

Almost every tomato and pea you've ever eaten is sustainable. Quit being a farking snob.

OOH! When do we get to the part where someone asserts that if all farming were organic there'd by massive food shortages? 'Cause after that they accuse the hippies of genocide and that's when the fun happens.

bonkmeist: Jeez.

Who is easier to troll, the "hippies" or the people who have actually shown up to this thread.

Aw, somebody has given in to the butthurt and is pulling the "i was just trollin u guys lol" card.

/People like you make my day

PJ_the_Barbarian: OOH! When do we get to the part where someone asserts that if all farming were organic there'd by massive food shortages? 'Cause after that they accuse the hippies of genocide and that's when the fun happens.

Well, I did *sort of* imply it earlier, saying that there's no chance in hell that happy little 'green' farms can feed all mankind.

But that wouldn't result in mankind's destruction, just the severe asswhooping of everybody who insisted on all this crap.

LavenderWolf: Aw, somebody has given in to the butthurt and is pulling the "i was just trollin u guys lol" card.

/People like you make my day

Right. You're welcome, your Saturday is already made!

bonkmeist: Jeez.

Who is easier to troll, the "hippies" or the people who have actually shown up to this thread.

It did get pretty weird in here really quick.

LavenderWolf: Well, I did *sort of* imply it earlier, saying that there's no chance in hell that happy little 'green' farms can feed all mankind.

But that wouldn't result in mankind's destruction, just the severe asswhooping of everybody who insisted on all this crap.

Hydroponics will feed more people than organic farming for sure. Anyone who has ever tried to do hydro-organics will tell you its a losing battle. Huge pain in the ass to keep nutrients in solution and deal with PH swings.