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(BBC)   Cardinal's defense for covering up child molestation: I was just following orders   (news.bbc.co.uk) divider line 188
    More: Asinine, child molestation, child abuses, cover up, civil law, pedophile, reckless endangerment, diocese, bishops  
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8107 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Mar 2010 at 2:42 PM (4 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-03-15 03:16:43 PM  
Sword and Shield: ToxicMunkee: Sword and Shield: lilbjorn: fenianfark: Does that headline technically Godwin the thread before it even begins?

Since the Pope was a Nazi, yes.

Hitler Youth does not equal Nazi, sorry, try again. Not to stand up for him, as I despise Benedict's politics, but being a member of the HY is not the same as the Nazi party.

So being a member of the Young Republicans is not the same as the Republican party?

Membership in the HY was mandatory. Membership in the Young Republicans is not. Follow?


Even so, they were being indoctrinated into the Nazi Party, period. The only reason many of those kids didn't become official badge carrying Nazis was because the Nazis lost.
 
2010-03-15 03:17:32 PM  
JohnCarter: The following orders defense has been tried before, and it was unsuccessful

[photo of Nuremberg defendants]

/ Not actually comparing the Catholic Church to Nazis
// Feel free to do so if you feel that way


Actually, the "following orders" defense was very successful. That's why there are no Allies in the photo.
 
2010-03-15 03:18:13 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com

See this. Unreal stuff and heartbreaking stuff.
 
2010-03-15 03:18:18 PM  
The Catholic Church: good for teh lulz
 
2010-03-15 03:18:22 PM  
Catholics should post a list of grievances on the doors of their local church.

/worked before
 
2010-03-15 03:18:35 PM  
So... No one here payed attention in Psychology class? The Milgram Experiment anyone?

People will do absolutely messed up, horrible things if someone that they perceive as an authority tells them to do it.
 
2010-03-15 03:20:43 PM  
you have pee hands: you have pee hands: Came to this thread looking for shoops of the pope.

Left without half my post.


images.quickblogcast.com
 
2010-03-15 03:24:09 PM  
mikemc3: Aside from the obvious rants and anti-Catholic B.S. that will dominate this thread..Speaking from experience it was the 70's and while that doesn't excuse shiat there was a complete culture of denial back then and NOT just the Catholic church but everywhere!!!!

It was far easier for the neighbors (society) to blame the abused kid or his/her parents who went after the accused attacker. Mostly by harassment or gossip...TRUST ME..My best friend's parents lost ALL their friends when their kid was attacked and they went to the accused parents.

And as much as this thread can and most likely will turn into an Anti-Catholic bash-fest...Just remember times have changed. People for the most part at least on this issue have grown / changed and this includes the Catholics. I have known some priests I would trust with my life, my kids life and my wife's life (really good people who actually care about what they are doing and the community). And there are still some fark-holes out there too..BUT THEY ARE THE EXCEPTION NOW AND NOT THE RULE.

Just remember this when your trying to be funny please.

/Sorry about being so serious about this, this is a VERY hot-button topic to me.



All of which is true...

...but does not negate the fact that the Pope (in his previous "holy" office) threatened people who went to the police with excommunication. Not the rapists - the people who might have brought them to justice.

And he didn't do this in the '70s...he did this in 2001 (new window).

Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.

The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.


...

It orders that 'preliminary investigations' into any claims of abuse should be sent to Ratzinger's office, which has the option of referring them back to private tribunals in which the 'functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests'.

'Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,' Ratzinger's letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication.

.....

The Ratzinger letter was co-signed by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone who gave an interview two years ago in which he hinted at the church's opposition to allowing outside agencies to investigate abuse claims.

'In my opinion, the demand that a bishop be obligated to contact the police in order to denounce a priest who has admitted the offence of paedophilia is unfounded,' Bertone said.

 
2010-03-15 03:24:33 PM  
Bullshiat! If they truly believed in their religion, there would be no way, NO WAY, they would allow this to happen and push it off as "I was only following orders!" This is a cop out, they knew it was wrong and did nothing. No excuses!

They messed up a bunch of innocent kids and allowed it to continue by shuffling them around. If I was catholic, I wouldn't be anymore.
 
2010-03-15 03:25:17 PM  
Remind me again why Christianity enjoys such a position of prominence in western culture?

/bastards, every one of them.
 
2010-03-15 03:26:51 PM  
When the pro-catholic farkers start to trumpet about how much good the catholic church has done around the world, I'd like everyone to take a step back and weigh the benefits of the church's civic programs versus the damage caused by their stance on birth control. Even the lauded Mother Theressa was telling the desperately impoverished not to use birth control when they couldn't feed the children they were already burdened with.

Perhaps some more resourceful farker could cite some numbers, but I expect that much of the suffering in predominately catholic countries is the result of the church's stance on birth control. I remember reading a paper about impoverished people in Brazil intentionally starving infants to death because they couldn't feed them, and the local catholic churches having mass child graves that were overfull with infant corpses.

That and, you know, the gay bashing and kiddie-diddling doesn't help their cause.
 
2010-03-15 03:27:17 PM  
Altourus:
//Played far to many Knights of the old republic


And watched far too little South Park...
 
2010-03-15 03:27:31 PM  
kbotc: People will do absolutely messed up, horrible things if someone that they perceive as an authority tells them to do it.

And they should still be accountable for their actions.
 
2010-03-15 03:27:58 PM  
Eh - the 'I was only following orders' defense *should* work; given the situation.

In the military - it's valid. You are forced to do what you are told, in a lot of places it's both accepted and expected; for you to be shot and killed if you don't follow orders.

When the choice is 'do what I say - or I kill you' that should totally give you an out. Particularly when you consider, for a lot of people, being in the military isn't a choice. They are forced into it, by their government.

None of this applies to the cardinal - but it should apply to the Nazis.
 
2010-03-15 03:29:15 PM  
Slappy Kincaid

FarkinHostile - it's a question I wrestle with on a daily basis.

I'm Catholic born and bred, but I condemn these guys along with everyone else. For the record, I disagree with about 90% of what the church stands for and teaches: antigay, pro-life, etc.



Well, I was born catholic, raised pentecostal, but I identify with neither, nor do I support/defend them (not saying you are, btw.) To me, this should be an easy decision for you; you disagree with 90% of their doctrine and condemn their heinous crimes. How can you struggle with not wanting/identifying with being a catholic?

It's like being a member of the KKK but not being a racist just because you were raised in that kind of home.
 
2010-03-15 03:30:33 PM  
Slappy Kincaid: FarkinHostile - it's a question I wrestle with on a daily basis.

I'm Catholic born and bred, but I condemn these guys along with everyone else. For the record, I disagree with about 90% of what the church stands for and teaches: antigay, pro-life, etc.

Mainly I try and take the positive out of what I've been taught and live my life.


You are definitely a closet Episcopalian. (It's Catholic lite...same religion, half the guilt)
 
2010-03-15 03:30:44 PM  
kbotc: So... No one here payed attention in Psychology class? The Milgram Experiment anyone?

People will do absolutely messed up, horrible things if someone that they perceive as an authority tells them to do it.


This.

If you have a group that encourages people to be free thinkers, and teaches people to assess others on a case by case basis, you're going to get people that aren't so gullible.

If, on the other hand, you have a group that starts with the premise "this person is in our group, all people in our group are good, outsiders can only become as good if they join our group, therefore this man is good" ... well, how many times do we have to run this social experiment in reality to see how it leads to the suppression of knowledge and education and the increase in people of all ages being taken advantage of (both for money and their selves)?

And when I say "social experiment in reality"...? Google News hits for: priest, child molestation = 1,946 (featuring reports of religious leaders from many sub-sects taking advantage of their flocks) ... Google News hits for: atheist, child molestation = 2 links (an article on Christian Humanist that mentions Christian abuses, and the second is a piece that says "And while they prohibit reading the Bible in school; it was perfectly all right for an atheist teacher to stand in front of the classroom and tear pages out of the Bible and sail them across the room.")
 
2010-03-15 03:31:26 PM  
Altourus:
Wookies aren't from endor, they're from Kashyyyk.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kashyyyk

/ Arguement could be made he lived on the millennium falcon, but not endor
//Played far to many Knights of the old republic


You're doing it wrong
 
2010-03-15 03:31:38 PM  
BarackHusseinObama: Hey, it works for American soldiers when they execute children and drop bombs on wedding parties.

Yeah...'cept with children and wedding parties, you just don't lead 'em as much
 
2010-03-15 03:31:44 PM  
oh look another day and some more catholic people are found to have molested kids.

The only thing sadder than all of this crap are the people that still show up early Sunday morning to fork over their tithe and eat their cracker and booze while believing everything that comes out of the churches mouth.

This is just like a police cover up only more twisted, and with a slightly different badge. It's not going to change anytime soon for either system until people finally wake the hell up and re invent the system and it's people.

Sheeple indeed.
 
2010-03-15 03:32:10 PM  
ToxicMunkee: Sword and Shield: ToxicMunkee: Sword and Shield: lilbjorn: fenianfark: Does that headline technically Godwin the thread before it even begins?

Since the Pope was a Nazi, yes.

Hitler Youth does not equal Nazi, sorry, try again. Not to stand up for him, as I despise Benedict's politics, but being a member of the HY is not the same as the Nazi party.

So being a member of the Young Republicans is not the same as the Republican party?

Membership in the HY was mandatory. Membership in the Young Republicans is not. Follow?

Even so, they were being indoctrinated into the Nazi Party, period. The only reason many of those kids didn't become official badge carrying Nazis was because the Nazis lost.


So, had you been a German child after 1939 when membership became mandatory, you would not have been in the Hitler Youth?

I always find it odd that people hold the Pope accountable for being part of an organization that had mandatory membership. I suppose that he, as a 14 year old child, could have fought against it and won somehow...? Let's not forget that his family members weren't Nazi sympathizers.

Criticize the Pope for whatever, but the Nazi thing is tired and really grasping for straws.
 
2010-03-15 03:37:04 PM  
rufus-t-firefly: Pope 'obstructed' sex abuse inquiry
Confidential letter reveals Ratzinger ordered bishops to keep allegations secret
(new window)


The Great Catholic Cover-Up (new window)
The pope's entire career has the stench of evil about it.
By Christopher Hitchens

Very much more serious is the role of Joseph Ratzinger, before the church decided to make him supreme leader, in obstructing justice on a global scale. After his promotion to cardinal, he was put in charge of the so-called "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" (formerly known as the Inquisition). In 2001, Pope John Paul II placed this department in charge of the investigation of child rape and torture by Catholic priests. In May of that year, Ratzinger issued a confidential letter to every bishop. In it, he reminded them of the extreme gravity of a certain crime. But that crime was the reporting of the rape and torture. The accusations, intoned Ratzinger, were only treatable within the church's own exclusive jurisdiction. Any sharing of the evidence with legal authorities or the press was utterly forbidden. Charges were to be investigated "in the most secretive way ... restrained by a perpetual silence ... and everyone ... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office ... under the penalty of excommunication." (Nobody has yet been excommunicated for the rape and torture of children, but exposing the offense could get you into serious trouble. And this is the church that warns us against moral relativism! (See, for more on this appalling document, two reports in the London Observer of April 24, 2005, by Jamie Doward.)

Not content with shielding its own priests from the law, Ratzinger's office even wrote its own private statute of limitations. The church's jurisdiction, claimed Ratzinger, "begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age" and then lasts for 10 more years. Daniel Shea, the attorney for two victims who sued Ratzinger and a church in Texas, correctly describes that latter stipulation as an obstruction of justice. "You can't investigate a case if you never find out about it. If you can manage to keep it secret for 18 years plus 10, the priest will get away with it."

The next item on this grisly docket will be the revival of the long-standing allegations against the Rev. Marcial Maciel, founder of the ultra-reactionary Legion of Christ, in which sexual assault seems to have been almost part of the liturgy. Senior ex-members of this secretive order found their complaints ignored and overridden by Ratzinger during the 1990s, if only because Father Maciel had been praised by the then-Pope John Paul II as an "efficacious guide to youth." And now behold the harvest of this long campaign of obfuscation. The Roman Catholic Church is headed by a mediocre Bavarian bureaucrat once tasked with the concealment of the foulest iniquity, whose ineptitude in that job now shows him to us as a man personally and professionally responsible for enabling a filthy wave of crime. Ratzinger himself may be banal, but his whole career has the stench of evil-a clinging and systematic evil that is beyond the power of exorcism to dispel. What is needed is not medieval incantation but the application of justice-and speedily at that.


Thank you. Hitchens is a personal hero of mine.
 
2010-03-15 03:38:00 PM  
Cyclometh: Remind me again why Christianity enjoys such a position of prominence in western culture?

/bastards, every one of them.


1 - never underestimate the power that repetition can have on the weak minded.

2 - babies and toddlers aren't known for their scepticism in the face of invented evidence (see: Easter Bunny, Santa, Tooth Fairy), and the Church will have them in attendance as early as possible.

3 - pride is a powerful thing to overcome, nobody likes to be told they're just flat-out wrong, and shaming people because they can't prove otherwise reinforces the 'inerrant' belief they feel is right.

4 - borrowing ideas that already worked helped get a foot in the door.

5 - killing people over a period of centuries for dissent, in the most horrific and sadistic manner imaginable, didn't hurt their cause either.
 
2010-03-15 03:38:30 PM  
Where are the police? Why is this left to the church to investigate?

Put some people in prison, starting with the asshole pope.
 
2010-03-15 03:39:41 PM  
So was the pope when he as a nazi.
 
2010-03-15 03:40:08 PM  
For the life of me I cannot fathom the mistrust of the Catholic church and the papacy. Its history is really beyond reproach. Did a quick google search on the first two hundred years of popes and found a brief history of their stellar accomplishments. And now people are criticizing the pope for protecting the church against the victims of pedophiles?



Boniface VI (896): Died after about 15 days in office - the second shortest Papal term of office in history. He was elected despite having been defrocked twice (once from the sub-diaconate, and once from the priesthood, and without being canonically reinstated to orders) by Pope John VIII for immorality. [3]

Stephen VI (896-897): Exhumed the corpse of Pope Formosus (891-896), tried the body for offenses against canon law in the "Cadaver Synod," and had the former Pope's body mutilated (the three fingers used for blessing were chopped off) and the remains tossed into the Tiber. This outraged the population to the point of insurrection. Stephen was deposed and strangled - and then buried in St. Peter's.

Sergius III (904-911): Jailed and strangled his predecessor Leo V (903), as well as the antipope Christopher who had overthrown Leo. Sergius reaffirmed the "Cadaver Synod" verdict against Pope Formosus, and bore an illegitimate son with the Theophylact noblewoman Marozia; the boy later became Pope John XI.

John X (914-928): In order to gain the release of the French King (Charles the Simple) from his imprisonment by Count Heribert of Aquitaine, John confirmed the election of the Count's five-year-old son as Archbishop of Rheims.

John XII (955-964): Elected at age 18, deposed for "perfidy and treason" in 963, overthrew his successor after a few months, and "died at age twenty-eight - of a stroke suffered while in the bed of a married woman." [4] A traditionalist historian says, "The Lateran Palace was called a brothel in his day, thanks to his diverse taste in lovers - both in terms of gender and number."[5] John "did not hesitate to consecrate as bishop a ten-year-old boy as token of his affection, or to give sacred vessels to prostitutes."[6]

John XIX (1024-1032): Won election through bribery.

Benedict IX (1032-1045): According to a traditionalist historian, "his personal life was so disgusting (filled as it was with mistresses and rumors of incest and sodomy) that one of the city's factions was able to rally support against him and drive Benedict out of Rome."[7] After he fought his way back to power, he soon "accepted a bribe to abdicate in favor of his godfather, the arch priest John Gratian. [8]

Gregory VI (1045-1046): John Gratian was deposed for having bought election to the Papacy.


Oh there is more. Much more since 1046, but this should be sufficient to understand how magnificent and infallible these Pope folks are.
 
2010-03-15 03:40:57 PM  
Mithiwithi: BarackHusseinObama: Hey, it works for American soldiers when they execute children and drop bombs on wedding parties.

American soldiers at least make up excuses that, if true, would almost justify their actions.


And American soldiers don't ask for donations or pretend they're working for god(s).
 
2010-03-15 03:41:33 PM  
Darth Vador was just following orders too!!

Friggin idiots! GAWD!
 
2010-03-15 03:42:11 PM  
katghoti: Bullshiat! If they truly believed in their religion, there would be no way, NO WAY, they would allow this to happen and push it off as "I was only following orders!" This is a cop out, they knew it was wrong and did nothing. No excuses!

They messed up a bunch of innocent kids and allowed it to continue by shuffling them around. If I was catholic, I wouldn't be anymore.


If you give these people money, you're supporting child molesters.
 
2010-03-15 03:43:12 PM  
Dreadskull: When the pro-catholic farkers start to trumpet about how much good the catholic church has done around the world, I'd like everyone to take a step back and weigh the benefits of the church's civic programs versus the damage caused by their stance on birth control. Even the lauded Mother Theressa was telling the desperately impoverished not to use birth control when they couldn't feed the children they were already burdened with.

Perhaps some more resourceful farker could cite some numbers, but I expect that much of the suffering in predominately catholic countries is the result of the church's stance on birth control. I remember reading a paper about impoverished people in Brazil intentionally starving infants to death because they couldn't feed them, and the local catholic churches having mass child graves that were overfull with infant corpses.

That and, you know, the gay bashing and kiddie-diddling doesn't help their cause.


You forgot to mention that the Church's official stance on AIDS is that it is bad, but condoms are much worse. I hold the Church personally responsible for the suffering of millions of lives in Africa. What they do should be criminal. Apologists be warned; if you defend the church for now allowing condoms in AIDS stricken Africa, you are condemning yourself for this crime as well. Catholics around the world should rally against this stance and demand a change in this doctrine. For an entity that props itself up on the sanctity of life, allowing humans to die AIDS is not only hypocritical, it is outlandish and should be prosecutable.
 
2010-03-15 03:45:41 PM  
aden_nak: If only there were some higher power he could have answered to.

Spoiler: there isn't. You think anyone would ACTUALLY do something merely rash is there was a REAL chance of an eternity of being buggered by helldogs with red-hot barbed johnsons? Come now, be serious. They're playing a role because it gives them power, and (as cannot be refuted) access to impressionable young playthings.

Let me put it this way: if Joe X was into kiddie-fiddling, and he wanted access to kids AND didn't want to get punished for it, hearing stories of Catholic abuses for decades (that never seemed to result in punishment for the abusers) would be like the Bat Signal to Bruce Wayne. The Church set up this system, and even after a long enough period (where even an idiot would figure out where the perverts were going) they still protected the molestors?

What kind of people look out for other people like this?

Silly question. Like-minded people, of course.

Religion: probably making excuses for child abuses since the dawn of man.
 
2010-03-15 03:47:30 PM  
PTBO: Darth Geoff Vador was just following orders too!!

Friggin idiots! GAWD!


Pet peave.
 
2010-03-15 03:48:12 PM  
Inflatable Rhetoric: katghoti: Bullshiat! If they truly believed in their religion, there would be no way, NO WAY, they would allow this to happen and push it off as "I was only following orders!" This is a cop out, they knew it was wrong and did nothing. No excuses!

They messed up a bunch of innocent kids and allowed it to continue by shuffling them around. If I was catholic, I wouldn't be anymore.

If you give these people money, you're supporting child molesters.


Actively supporting and financing, no less.
 
2010-03-15 03:49:13 PM  
Question: Do you think the Pope/Archbishops/ect actually believe in god?
 
2010-03-15 03:49:20 PM  
Duyogurt
I don't understand.....

Are the majority AIDs infected people in Africa, Catholic? I didn't think they were.
 
2010-03-15 03:50:10 PM  
FarkinHostile: Question: Do you think the Pope/Archbishops/ect actually believe in god?


I can't see how any person educated in the early origins of their religion could possibly still believe in any god...
 
2010-03-15 03:50:32 PM  
Mithiwithi: BarackHusseinObama: Hey, it works for American soldiers when they execute children and drop bombs on wedding parties.

American soldiers at least make up excuses that, if true, would almost justify their actions.


So much THIS! Great point.
 
2010-03-15 03:51:08 PM  
PTBO: Darth Vador was just following orders too!!

who?
 
2010-03-15 03:52:42 PM  
pwhp_67: I can't see how any person educated in the early origins of their religion could possibly still believe in any god...

You just don't have faith.
 
2010-03-15 03:52:50 PM  
Jacobin:
Oh there is more. Much more since 1046, but this should be sufficient to understand how magnificent and infallible these Pope folks are.


Those guys suck. At least the Borgias might have been fun to party with.
 
2010-03-15 03:52:59 PM  
FarkinHostile: I, for one, am SHOCKED that the catholic pedoph.....er, hierarchy, would cover up such a thing. Shocked, I tell you!


How do they still have any practicing members, or even anyone who would admit to being catholic? I mean, really. If any other organization was shown to systematically condone if not actually participate in child rape no one in their right mind would want to be associated with them. I really can't understand it.


N.A.M.B.L.A.?
 
2010-03-15 03:54:03 PM  
Guma: PTBO: Darth Vador was just following orders too!!

who?


Geoff Vador. He runs the canteen on the Death Star.
 
2010-03-15 03:54:51 PM  
I'm sure Jesus understands.
 
2010-03-15 03:55:07 PM  
Fark_Guy_Rob: Duyogurt
I don't understand.....

Are the majority AIDs infected people in Africa, Catholic? I didn't think they were.


Huge recruiting ground for the Church. Decent size of the population is Catholic in some countries as well.

But I ask you one thing; since when was it the doctrine of the Catholic Church to not help other human beings? With their immense wealth, could they not distribute condoms to a tremendous amount of very poor people regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof? I was under the stupid assumption that the Church did good things to help prop up society. Instead they let them die horrible deaths and personally allow the spread of this awful disease.
 
2010-03-15 03:55:26 PM  
Point02GPA: Bonus points if the kids were Jews.

I wasn't supposed to laugh at that, was I?
 
2010-03-15 03:56:09 PM  
Jackpot777: Guma: PTBO: Darth Vador was just following orders too!!

who?

Geoff Vador. He runs the canteen on the Death Star.


This one is wet, this one is wet, this one is wet, this one is wet...

/Mr Stevens is head of catering
 
2010-03-15 03:56:17 PM  
Clearly had a huge typo in the previous post. You get the point though. My bad.
 
2010-03-15 03:56:42 PM  
whispers: FarkinHostile: I, for one, am SHOCKED that the catholic pedoph.....er, hierarchy, would cover up such a thing. Shocked, I tell you!


How do they still have any practicing members, or even anyone who would admit to being catholic? I mean, really. If any other organization was shown to systematically condone if not actually participate in child rape no one in their right mind would want to be associated with them. I really can't understand it.

N.A.M.B.L.A.?


I'll not have you besmirching NAMBLA's good name!

The North American Marlon Brando Lookalike Association will not stand idly by!
 
2010-03-15 03:58:02 PM  
FarkinHostile: Question: Do you think the Pope/Archbishops/ect actually believe in god?

Might as well ask if a sociopath believes in evil. The question- and the answer- are meaningless.

Their actions, however, are incalculably harmful. I can't fathom how people continue to adhere to and defend what is essentially a child-rape cult.
 
2010-03-15 03:59:50 PM  
Alpha Sierra Foxtrot: Jackpot777: Guma: PTBO: Darth Vador was just following orders too!!

who?

Geoff Vador. He runs the canteen on the Death Star.

This one is wet, this one is wet, this one is wet, this one is wet...

/Mr Stevens is head of catering


Death by tray! With some peas
 
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