Kpar90 Really? I coulda sworn this was happening now.

Gimme that Old Time Religion......

"We had so many break-ins and vandalism out here this winter. They're not going to stop until somebody gets killed."

Or maybe arrested and convicted.
Or finds Jesus and gives up their thievin' ways.
Or gets a case of the gout.
Or gets chased up a tree by a bear.
Or leaves town.
Or gets a bad rash and can't go lootin'.

There are options other than death, dumbass.

04-25-03 04:30:15 PM Kpar90

Although we do tend to kill ourselves quite a bit, it's not any worse than many other countries.

Source, please?

All speeders deserve to be shot. Usually they're going so fast you can't hit them though.

One evening at twilight I was walking along a trail with a friend. We lost the tail and got tangled up in some blackberry bushes. We struggled up onto the edge of the lawn of a house that had just been built. We walked along the edge of the property to get back to the road. The owner came out with a rifle and accused us of being peeping toms. He held us at gun point until the police arrived. After questioning us, searching our car, and seeing the scratches on our arms, they convinced the owner we were harmless and let us go.

I can not help but think that if that guy wanted to he could have shot us dead and many people would just say we deserved it because we must have been up to no good.

"What if they were spray painting his walls outside the church?" That's what photographic evidence and the police are for.

"What if they'd broken in to get warm? What if they were just plain ol stinkin drunk and came to the wrong house (their house was schoolhouse red too?)? What if they were Japanese students looking for a halloween party? "


What if they were? Anyone who enters my home without my permission I will assume hostile first. Doubt will get you killed. No-one has any business breaking into my property. Things would be so much more better if people would just learn "not yours, don't touch". Someone comes into my home and trys touching my things, I will assume them armed and simplify the situation. Dead men don't sue.

GojiraXP

You're so sexy when you talk tough like that.

Well, I actually did *read* the article, and I just have one observation:

I would have thought Marion Jones would be fast enough to run away. And I always thought she was a man.

O.K. people, let's make them holy!

Where was this guy's god? Why would a loving, caring god allow thugs to break and enter his sacred building?

no monty python? Farkers are slacking.

Armaments, chapter two, verses nine to twenty-one:

And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that, with it, Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits in Thy mercy.'

And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu--...

And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.' Amen.

Burn98

The owner was out of line. You hadn't made any indication that you had hostile intentions, since you'd not broken into any buildings of his and you'd not damaged any of his property -- at least not deliberately.

1-2-5
3 sire
3

Outlaw_Rudy I prefer the "self defense against assailants wielding fruit" sketch myself. "what if 'es got a pointed stick?"

My family lives out in rural Texas, so the number of guns in houses isn't small.

My brother, 16 years old and just got his license, lost control of his car on a dirt road and hit a tree. Justifiably shaken up he went to the nearest house to make call our dad to come help him. No one was home, so in a move of complete stupidity, he went into the house (which was unlocked) and used the phone. My dad figured out where he was and freaked out. He told him to get out of the house quick because if he was caught, there was a better than certain chance he'd be shot.

What he did was totally stupid. No doubt about it. But he didn't mean any harm. He was scared and frightened, and it caused him to make a really bad mistake. Luckily he got out of there. But to have lost him to a "justifiable" shooting over something like that is just to scary.

I have no suggestions as to how to fix the situation, and I'm not weighing in on the whole 2nd Amendment, shoot first-ask questions later debate. Just offering more examples of times where it would cause more harm than good.

What? A discussion involving religion, gun rights, and vigilantism?

/grabs popcorn

SuseJ

If someone is vandalizing my property then they have shown a flagrant disregard for my property rights. If they are demonstrating that they have no respect for my property rights, then why should I assume that they might have respect for my personal safety? I can't, and I won't and, to keep myself safe, I'll assume the worst. It's their damn fault for trying to destroy my property.

Dimensio
Burn98

The owner was out of line. You hadn't made any indication that you had hostile intentions, since you'd not broken into any buildings of his and you'd not damaged any of his property -- at least not deliberately.

Agreed, walking on the property line edge wouldn't be considered hostile (pacing back and forth along it would). That property owner might have been edgy for another reason though...

Although we do tend to kill ourselves quite a bit, it's not any worse than many other countries.

I've just run through many results of a google for GUN DEATHS STATISTICS INTERNATIONAL.

Even the pro-gun sites note that the US has a higher rate but they obfuscate (ie: most of these deaths are suicides and the japanese kill themselves more often by means other than guns so comparing japanese to US gun deaths is meaningless -- like THAT means anything???) whereas the govt stat-type sites note that yes, the US has 3 times more guns 8 times more handguns and 10 times more gun homicides than their Canadian neighbours.

The anti-gunner sites, of course, make the USA sound like the set of "The Quick and the Dead" with lead whizzing around everyone's heads. S'not that bad, obviously, but they require less manipulation of stats to make their point than the pro-gunners do to make theirs.

Well, maybe he had the right to shoot them or maybe he didn't. But if that were my pastor, I'd be out looking for another spiritual leader who was...I don't know...a little more turn-the-other-cheeky.

Danho

Yes, what your brother did was very stupid. It could have gotten him killed. The owner of the home would have no way to know why your brother was in the house like that.

Then of course there was the bus hijaacking in Germany this morning. Seems a man armed with a gun hijaaked a bus. Wait, I thought personal firearms were illegal in Germany, how could THAT have happened?

Bill Wick's Friend note I asked for a source on that exact sentence already... no answer yet...

I love when people try to debunk facts and stats with their own ideas and assumptions. Sorry, it don't work.

Dimensio- If you saw someone outside your house, spraypainting your car, and you shot them and killed them, you would go to jail for a few years. They are easy on guys that kill off of that kind of stuff, and they dont normally get 20 years, but you would go in for a few.

Just letting you know, dont act shocked now if it happens

Dimensio
If someone were spraypainting the walls of my home, I'd shoot them before I'd let them escape. They are destroying MY property.

That's called depraved indifference to human life and 8-1/3 to 25 years.

SuseJ
And that's what I don't understand about the idiots who've set up your legal system. Why is it illegal for me to defend my property against vandals?

DimensioIf they are demonstrating that they have no respect for my property rights, then why should I assume that they might have respect for my personal safety? I can't, and I won't

Not to say anything about your stance on self defense, wow you are a chicken.

"Oh my god, spraypainting! They might be murderers!"

What are you a soccor mom?

got what they deserved

04-25-03 04:31:23 PM
Dimensio

What if they were spray painting his walls outside the church?

If someone were spraypainting the walls of my home, I'd shoot them before I'd let them escape. They are destroying MY property.

What ifthey'd broken in to get warm?

And how is one supposed to determine the purpose for an intruder's invasion while still doing it in such a fashion that they can react should the intruders have violent intent?

What if they were just plain ol stinkin drunk and came to the wrong house?

It would be an unfortunate incident that further provides proof that you should drink responsibly.


better hope no one breaks into your house -- cause your ass would land in jail for a long time for all of these infractions.

Hey, here's a wacky question...Did Rev. Bang-Bang give them a warning at all? Like maybe fire a shot over their heads? Or yell out to them? Something like, "Lighten up, Francis Marion Jones IV, 23, of Wasilla"?

Or did he carry out his pastoral duties by simply putting daylight through them?

GojiraXP says:
Someone comes into my home and trys touching my things, I will assume them armed and simplify the situation.

Someone breaks into my home I will assume they're NOT armed and statistically I'd be right.

Of course, if you live in the USA you'd be right in your assessment too.

Problem that i see is that it's too late for the USA to go back. You are right...EVERYONE is armed so it makes sense to ensure you're armed too and that you assume everyone else is armed. Too late to put your genie back in the bottle.

When did society come to the point where it's considered morally superior to let criminals and thieves walk off with your property rather than take whatever means necessary to prevent the theft? No wonder the crime rate in the UK and the US is as it is, people are quite happy to defend the rights of criminals to break the law unmolested.

Bill_Wick's_Friend:

There's one other problem here in the states. Assuming I don't shoot them, and they are not armed, the great likelihood is that if they are apprehended they will SUE me for made up damages. See, if they cut themselves going through my window, it's MY fault in this country for not putting easy to break safety glass in for their benefit. Again. Dead men don't sue.

I once shot some kids who were toilet papering my car. Effing vandal punks. Granted it was no skin off my back to get a big garbage bag and clean it all up, but I shudder to think if the TP got wet. Wet TP on a car is a beeyatch to clean up.

Dimensio

Welcome to reality buddy, crime here is a lot less terrible than it is in the rest of the world.

You can shoot to kill quite happily in lots of Africa and Asia, but it's not magically tranquil and peaceful there.

Meanwhile, Japan is more peaceful than us with regards to violent crime, and I believe they are even more strict on violent self-defense.

It's not a holistic phenominon.

LarsThorwald: Yep, sorry, nothing in here about gunning down rednecks in the House of the Lord for burglary. Sorry, Ms. Blank--if that is your real name--but you are a bit off in your legal position, at least as far as the common law goes. Now, as far as the law of He Who Walks Behind the Rows or whatever Hillbilly Justice you have in lieu ofthe rule of law, well, you got me.

The paper is quoting some ignoramus who wasn't involved, and has, shall we say, an imperfect perception of the law. The guy who did the shooting isn't talking, so for all we know, the dead guys attacked him when confronted. In which case, it wouldn't be Hillbilly Justice, it would be South Park Justice ("He's coming right for us!" *BLAM*)

Dimensio:
You believe the penalty to any and all crimes should be death? Or is it just when they cause YOU an inconvenience?

-Stephen

GojiraXP
Dimensio

That property owner might have been edgy for another reason though...


He was. The police told us his wife was the first one to spot us. She was getting dressed when she saw us out of the window. We did not see her.

The point is that if he had shot us, and told the police he shot two prowlers that were outside his wifes window while she was dressing, the two of you would assume we were up to no good and that the owner deserved a medal.

There are three other times I have had a gun pointed at me.

I worked at a 7-11 and got robbed.

Some friends and I stopped along a rural road to pee and some guy in a pickup stopped and threatened to blow my head off. It was not unusual to see people peeing on the side of the road in that area so we could not figure out what the problem was. It turned out there was a small graveyard nearby and he though we were going to vandalize it.

A friend and I knocked on the wrong door. A man answered holding a hand gun and told us it was not smart to be knocking on strange doors. We determined that the girl we were looking for was in the next apartment. We knocked on the door of the next apartment and she let us in.

In either of these last too cases, we could have been shot, and the shooter could have just told the police we were committing a crime and he was defending himself.

So when I here that someone runs across the street to check on headlights and 2 guys end up dead, I can not help but be a little skeptical.

Lars, it's legal in some states to kill to protect property, e.g., you can in Louisiana to stop a carjacking. But thanks for being so condescending about it.

GojiraXP
Then of course there was the bus hijaacking in Germany this morning.

The quick response to this is that these incidents are rare in most of the civilised world. Another example: there have been school shootings in most western countries, but they don't happen with anything near the frequency as in the US.

"The point is that if he had shot us, and told the police he shot two prowlers that were outside his wifes window while she was dressing, the two of you would assume we were up to no good and that the owner deserved a medal."

No, not if you weren't in his house I wouldn't.

So when I hear, NOT here

Hell ya, TheWalrusKing, Boondock Saints kicks ass.

I hate rednecks.

Alright, I'm stating this first, before anything else: I am a strong Christian.

Now, I still think what this pastor did was WRONG! I don't think it's right for someone to steal from/vandalize a church but I really think this pastor was out of line with the gun in the first place. It's called 911...not a gun. I mean, why did the pastor have a gun in the first place?

Secondly, I can't see killing these guys as neccessary. I understand they could kill you and you want to protect yourself/the church. Still, killing the guys??? Shoot at a not vital spot if you're going to shoot someone! These men didn't need to die. Protecting your church is one thing, killing is another.

Sorry folks, but I just can't see why he did it, it was stupid and I can't justify it, so as a Christian, I apologize (because, as proven by this thread, it goes against us all...).

Dimensio -

This stuff is taken on a case-by-case basis. Sure, the idea of self-defense has held up for years, but it isn't a complete legal doctrine.

If you came to your house and saw a 16 year-old kid making a call on your telephone and you shot him at the first instant, your side might hold up in court, yes. You could fundamentally walk. A hero to your house and home.

But if the deceased kid's family had any kind of defense (he was autistic, he had hit a tree and needed to call home, he was unarmed . . . a CHILD, he was not hostile) then I'm pretty sure any jury in the nation (except maybe Texas) wouldn't side with you on this one.

It sucks, yeah - but our system is "of the people." There are rules and enforced laws, but at all times right and wrong is determined by your neighbors themselves - the jury, and what line is crossed and where.



I'll stop, I sound like a junior high Civics teacher with high blood pressure.

Sorry father, I know you've done alot of good work for me, But you're going to hell.
/Godman

Microwavable!

If I came home and found a strange sixteen year-old kid talking on the phone, I'd not shoot first and ask questions later. It's unlikley that a person on the phone could easily and quickly reach for a weapon, so I would likely have an advantage.

Kaikhor - you dont know the details of the situation at hand. It is entirely possible that the pastor confronted the thieves and they turned on him and tried to kill him.
Maybe he didnt have a gun, maybe he took it from one of the thieves.

My point is Kaikhor, that it is entirely possible that he shot them in self-defence, so you shouldn't judge him when you don't know the facts.