FARK.com: (5106916) According to the World Health Organisation (WHO), the likelihood of a woman dying in childbirth in the US is five times greater than in Greece

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		According to the World Health Organisation (WHO), the likelihood of a woman dying in childbirth in the US is five times greater than in Greece (guardian.co.uk)		268
		More: Sad, World Health Organisation, Amnesty International, United States, childbirth, Greece, death rates, caesarean sections, Secretary of State Clinton

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feckingmorons		2010-03-13 10:16:56 PM

Um, the Greeks.... they um, well you see a man and a woman...

Nevermind.

Cake Hunter		2010-03-13 10:28:30 PM

It's the protective layer of body hair.

Infinite Monkeys In Front Of A Computer		2010-03-13 10:38:08 PM

To be fair, Greek women have huge vaginas. They actually don't even give birth. The baby just kind of...falls out at 9 months.

basemetal		2010-03-13 10:52:07 PM

Meh, you probably have to factor in all of the people who nature said no to, but got fertility treatments anyway, and paid the price for pissing off nature. That and all of the fattys who are diabetic.

7of7		2010-03-13 10:52:25 PM

To be fair, the stats are probably inflated for US women since their babies are more likely to be underweight and easier to birth.

eurotrader		2010-03-13 11:47:57 PM

may have something to do with the age of first time mothers in the US if you wait until 40 for the 1st yah there will be a higher rate of death

Cagey B		2010-03-13 11:52:40 PM

That's an unfair comparison. People in Greece are not "born", as such, but spring fully-formed from their father's heads.

ragekage		2010-03-13 11:58:11 PM

basemetal: Meh, you probably have to factor in all of the people who nature said no to, but got fertility treatments anyway, and paid the price for pissing off nature. That and all of the fattys who are diabetic.

When we do these sorts of studies, we generally take those sorts of criteria into account. Though we generally don't label the subgroups "Fatties" and "Fertility freaks", though it would be mildly amusing. That being said, yeah, our rate sucks, even adjusted for cultural differences.

SomeoneDumb		2010-03-13 11:58:19 PM

It doesn't matter. It's just all the plebes who are messing up the stats. Excellent Americans get excellent care.

shivashakti		2010-03-14 12:07:59 AM

Must be the extra lubrication...

brainiac-dumdum		2010-03-14 12:09:31 AM

brainiac-dumdum		2010-03-14 12:18:41 AM

"This country's extraordinary record of medical advancement makes its haphazard approach to maternal care all the more scandalous and disgraceful," said US Amnesty executive director Larry Cox. "Good maternal care should not be considered a luxury available only to those who can access the best hospitals and the best doctors. Women should not die in the richest country on earth from preventable complications and emergencies.

"Mothers die not because the United States can't provide good care, but because it lacks the political will to make sure good care is available to all women."

word to yer mother

/there!

JacksBlack		2010-03-14 12:22:25 AM

shivashakti: Must be the extra lubrication...

Olive oil?

log_jammin		2010-03-14 12:23:33 AM

hmmm...lets see...*throws dart*

"The World Health Organization is run by liberals and the UN has bad countries who violate civil rights, therefore this study is wrong and it's just a way to make people more dependent on government. Oh. And this one form of cancer has a higher mortality rate in the UK than in the US. So there libtards."

SilentStrider		2010-03-14 12:24:46 AM

log_jammin: hmmm...lets see...*throws dart*

"The World Health Organization is run by liberals and the UN has bad countries who violate civil rights, therefore this study is wrong and it's just a way to make people more dependent on government. Oh. And this one form of cancer has a higher mortality rate in the UK than in the US. So there libtards."

well, you've convinced me. I'm going to vote republican.

log_jammin		2010-03-14 12:25:57 AM

SilentStrider: well, you've convinced me. I'm going to vote republican.

That's why I do. Because both sides are the exact same.

tallguywithglasseson		2010-03-14 12:37:03 AM

Jesus Christ, that's almost double!

WhyteRaven74		2010-03-14 12:44:11 AM

SilentStrider: to vote.

for Kang and Kodos!

brainiac-dumdum		2010-03-14 12:48:51 AM

WhyteRaven74: SilentStrider: to vote.

for Kang and Kodos!

i41.tinypic.com

LordZorch		2010-03-14 01:05:24 AM

basemetal: Meh, you probably have to factor in all of the people who nature said no to, but got fertility treatments anyway, and paid the price for pissing off nature. That and all of the fattys who are diabetic.

this.

And the WHO and Amnesty International aren't exactly high on my list of reputable sources of information.

johnsoninca		2010-03-14 01:11:30 AM

What do you expect from a country where enough women don't know that they're pregnant to have a series?

log_jammin		2010-03-14 01:14:40 AM

And the WHO and Amnesty International aren't exactly high on my list of reputable sources of information.

YES!!!! Nailed it!!!!

GoDawgs!		2010-03-14 01:18:19 AM

brainiac-dumdum: basemetal: Meh, you probably have to factor in all of the people who nature said no to, but got fertility treatments anyway, and paid the price for pissing off nature. That and all of the fattys who are diabetic.

you should rta, it tells you who is the most likely to die in childbirth.

SPOILER ALERT:

women and children

oldebayer		2010-03-14 01:25:31 AM

LordZorch: And the WHO and Amnesty International aren't exactly high on my list of reputable sources of information.

I've read at least three blogs that say the same thing, so it must be true.

DoctorCal		2010-03-14 01:26:47 AM

log_jammin: And the WHO and Amnesty International aren't exactly high on my list of reputable sources of information.

YES!!!! Nailed it!!!!

Great minds think alike. Now, if you could work your way up to black belt (and probably nuclear engineer, small business owner, and Patent Attorney), you'll be fit to shine his shoes!

Occam's Chainsaw		2010-03-14 01:27:29 AM

log_jammin: YES!!!! Nailed it!!!!

This is the part where you do donuts in the infield, right? I'll get the the obligatory bottle of sprayin' champagne warmed up.

WhyteRaven74		2010-03-14 01:29:08 AM

brainiac-dumdum: i41.tinypic.com

hahahahahhahahahahhaahahahahahahaha

log_jammin		2010-03-14 01:29:57 AM

Occam's Chainsaw: This is the part where you do donuts in the infield, right? I'll get the the obligatory bottle of sprayin' champagne warmed up.

I wanna thank my momma and our lord and savior jesus christ for making this possible....

DoctorCal		2010-03-14 01:31:48 AM

log_jammin: Occam's Chainsaw: This is the part where you do donuts in the infield, right? I'll get the the obligatory bottle of sprayin' champagne warmed up.

I wanna thank my momma and our lord and savior jesus christ for making this possible....

Make that blessing your biatch!

log_jammin		2010-03-14 01:33:02 AM

DoctorCal: Make that blessing your biatch!

and the sweetest girl in the world! I love you doreen!!!!

brainiac-dumdum		2010-03-14 03:00:13 AM

johnsoninca: What do you expect from a country where enough women don't know that they're pregnant to have a series?

lol, yes that happens all the time

WhyteRaven74		2010-03-14 03:14:17 AM

Apropos of nothing, anyone want some Doritos from China?

www.loneleeplanet.com

/of course it's hot, the pic, no idea about the chips

WhyteRaven74		2010-03-14 03:15:09 AM

Oops, that should be Japan, not China.

brainiac-dumdum		2010-03-14 03:19:05 AM

WhyteRaven74: Apropos of nothing, anyone want some Doritos from China?

/of course it's hot, the pic, no idea about the chips

do you think the unitard men are supposed to be cheese personified?

Somacandra		2010-03-14 03:20:20 AM

Well that's really poopy.

WhyteRaven74		2010-03-14 03:50:25 AM

brainiac-dumdum: do you think the unitard men are supposed to be cheese personified?

I have no idea. My brain just goes all loopy just looking at the pic and thinking it's on a bag of Doritos.

Rohasman		2010-03-14 04:47:29 AM

WhyteRaven74: brainiac-dumdum: do you think the unitard men are supposed to be cheese personified?

I have no idea. My brain just goes all loopy just looking at the pic and thinking it's on a bag of Doritos.

One is cheese, the other is spice. Together they are subtly homoerotic shades of acrobatic awesome.

Vern		2010-03-14 04:51:18 AM

So there's less poor African and Native American's sucking up welfare, and they aren't going to continue to produce children and get larger tax returns because they continue to reproduce? I can live with that.

/Seen enough Native American's smoking and drinking while pregnant.
//Cool story bro.
///Seriously though, they're generally very bad parents.

WhyteRaven74		2010-03-14 04:51:59 AM

Rohasman: subtly homoerotic

A man stepping on another man's crotch is subtle?

scruffy1		2010-03-14 04:52:06 AM

That's why we need to start arming fetuses (feti?), that way they can shoot their way out of the womb if there is ever any danger to their self being. What the hell does the Who know about children... other than being full of pedophiles. All they are good for is drafting the letters that the UN is about to send out.

Coming on a Bicycle		2010-03-14 04:52:22 AM

Infinite Monkeys In Front Of A Computer: To be fair, Greek women have huge vaginas. They actually don't even give birth. The baby just kind of...falls out at 9 months.

img395.imageshack.us

Greek women !

Mr. Shabooboo		2010-03-14 04:54:51 AM

United Nations Organization - World Health Organization..

/Get a Clue people!!

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves		2010-03-14 04:56:17 AM

LordZorch: the WHO and Amnesty International aren't exactly high on my list of reputable sources of information

I bet you won't get fooled again. All the same, women should be careful with the sqeeze box, especially my generation.

dakryoen gelasasa		2010-03-14 04:57:07 AM

As a Greek woman I don't really find it all that sad...

"huge vaginas"... snerk.

Mithiwithi		2010-03-14 05:02:31 AM

log_jammin: hmmm...lets see...*throws dart*

"The World Health Organization is run by liberals and the UN has bad countries who violate civil rights, therefore this study is wrong and it's just a way to make people more dependent on government. Oh. And this one form of cancer has a higher mortality rate in the UK than in the US. So there libtards."

Hear that, Phil Herup? You don't need to post in this thread - log_jammin already has you covered!

lennavan		2010-03-14 05:02:39 AM

LordZorch: basemetal: Meh, you probably have to factor in all of the people who nature said no to, but got fertility treatments anyway, and paid the price for pissing off nature. That and all of the fattys who are diabetic.

this.

And the WHO and Amnesty International aren't exactly high on my list of reputable sources of information.

This. If there ever were an unreputable source it is definitely those hippies at WHO and Amnesty International. Farkin hippies.

a4.vox.com

I'm ready with you my brothers.

zefal		2010-03-14 05:03:32 AM

Why the comparison to Greece? Why not to Britain, France, Germany, etc. Something smells fishy.

lennavan		2010-03-14 05:05:11 AM

dakryoen gelasasa: As a Greek woman I don't really find it all that sad...

"huge vaginas"... snerk.

As someone who enjoys vaginas I do find it sad. "Huge vaginas" barf. What your greek vagina might look like:

i31.photobucket.com

Irascible		2010-03-14 05:06:50 AM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves

I bet you won't get fooled again. All the same, women should be careful with the sqeeze box, especially my generation.

At least the music's all right.
Too bad daddy cant sleep at night.

scruffy1		2010-03-14 05:06:59 AM

zefal: Why the comparison to Greece? Why not to Britain, France, Germany, etc. Something smells fishy.

Because the British don't have sex, the French don't have pregnancies and the Germans are too busy bombing Pearl Harbor to worry about silly things such as childbirth and they grow them in tubes.

fragMasterFlash		2010-03-14 05:08:28 AM

Infinite Monkeys In Front Of A Computer: To be fair, Greek women have huge vaginas. They actually don't even give birth. The baby just kind of...falls out at 9 months.

img682.imageshack.us

Paulistinian		2010-03-14 05:09:09 AM

basemetal: Meh, you probably have to factor in all of the people who nature said no to, but got fertility treatments anyway, and paid the price for pissing off nature. That and all of the fattys who are diabetic.

THIS

As a researcher, I always get a kick out of these reports. They come out whenever someone wants to push something political (is there some healthcare issue going on in the US right now? hmm) and always has the risk overblown.

I especially love the part FTFA where it says:

"The US ranks 41st in the WHO's league table of maternal mortality, with a risk of women dying in childbirth at one in 4,800. Top of the league is Ireland with one in 47,600, which has partly to do with the small population"

Ok, if you're going to fark around with the numbers like this and you attribute lower deaths from birth because of a smaller population, UR DOIN IT RONG. Population should be controlled for when putting out statistics like this, unless you are putting out pure bullshiat. Which these people are.

tl;dr - Article is bullshiat.

AFWX		2010-03-14 05:09:35 AM

It's because they use the Euro, which makes them too poor to die. Die like a man sissy!

Gordon Bennett		2010-03-14 05:11:21 AM

Interestingly enough it was my father who died as a result of childbirth.

All I can say to you Farkers is that while it is normally OK to go down on your woman while she is pregnant, you don't want to be there when her water breaks.

AFWX		2010-03-14 05:13:03 AM

Gordon Bennett: Interestingly enough it was my father who died as a result of childbirth.

All I can say to you Farkers is that while it is normally OK to go down on your woman while she is pregnant, you don't want to be there when her water breaks.

So would that be earning your "baby wings"?

thamike		2010-03-14 05:13:08 AM

Whether or not it's true, at least U.S. doctors don't put out their cigarettes on your belly during delivery.

thamike		2010-03-14 05:15:38 AM

That wasn't a grossly humorous, over-exaggeration, BTW.

RadiKS		2010-03-14 05:16:22 AM

Paulistinian:
As a researcher, I always get a kick out of these reports. They come out whenever someone wants to push something political (is there some healthcare issue going on in the US right now? hmm) and always has the risk overblown.
tl;dr - Article is bullshiat.

Then maybe you should read the actual report before you call bullshiat? If you really are a "researcher" then you should see what their methodology is.

Nightie don't call me Wig		2010-03-14 05:23:30 AM

If theres any truth to those numbers at all, that's a hell of a lot of uninsured or undercovered poor people offsetting the insured, whose chances of dying in childbirth are probably bordering on nonexistent. I guarantee this country's rich white folk beat Ireland for the top spot per capita.

The gap. It widens. Nice to see that at least half of America is interesting in keeping it that way. Even when most of them are on the wrong side of the gap.

thisispete		2010-03-14 05:26:28 AM

Cagey B: That's an unfair comparison. People in Greece are not "born", as such, but spring fully-formed from their father's heads.

I see what you did there.

Omnis_evil_twin		2010-03-14 05:27:37 AM

fragMasterFlash:
img682.imageshack.us

Um...is the little baby about to give the big baby an enema?

ScottHimself		2010-03-14 05:28:08 AM

Didn't they just cancel funding for free pre-natal care? This is a really ignorant stab, and I'm not googling it because I'm heavily under the influence at the moment, but I'm certain the pre-natal care buses that cruised New Orleans are no longer operating.

Anyways, women used to go into battle much the same as men have throughout history everytime the bill for that wonderful meal of sex came due. Some still do.

/thanks mom

T.M.S.		2010-03-14 05:32:57 AM

My wife nearly died in childbirth. The kid too. But we knew that was a real possibility going into it. It's just that when the shiat actually hits the fan you only then start to really believe it could happen.

2.5 hour c-section and an OR that looked like something out of Apocalypse Now. Not so awesome.

gund		2010-03-14 05:37:18 AM

Paulistinian: basemetal: Meh, you probably have to factor in all of the people who nature said no to, but got fertility treatments anyway, and paid the price for pissing off nature. That and all of the fattys who are diabetic.

THIS

As a researcher, I always get a kick out of these reports. They come out whenever someone wants to push something political (is there some healthcare issue going on in the US right now? hmm) and always has the risk overblown.

I especially love the part FTFA where it says:

"The US ranks 41st in the WHO's league table of maternal mortality, with a risk of women dying in childbirth at one in 4,800. Top of the league is Ireland with one in 47,600, which has partly to do with the small population"

Ok, if you're going to fark around with the numbers like this and you attribute lower deaths from birth because of a smaller population, UR DOIN IT RONG. Population should be controlled for when putting out statistics like this, unless you are putting out pure bullshiat. Which these people are.

tl;dr - Article is bullshiat.

What? How do you control for size of population of the country? It's an indirect factor that affects everything. This isn't size of sample population here.

You are a researcher? Sure, whatever that means. I research porn.

Lastly, why would you control for size of population?
USA government and retards: Yeah we suck at childbirth rates, but that's because we have a big population. If our population size was the size of ireland's, we would do as well or better.
USA mothers that don't get prenatal care: Ok... I'll imagine our population is a lot smaller, maybe the chances of my survival increases.

Omnis_evil_twin		2010-03-14 05:39:02 AM

WhyteRaven74: Apropos of nothing, anyone want some Doritos from China?
/of course it's hot, the pic, no idea about the chips

電気アンマis Japanese for "electric massage". It's kind of like a noogie, except it's on yer ballz. I've only see my elementary school students doing it once or twice. Used to be popular in pro wrestling.

Now it's more popular in lesbian porn. Like scissoring. I don't know if the actresses actually like it or not. Omnis_evil_boyfriend tried it once and Omnis_evil_vagina was not amused.

Party-sized bucket of flan		2010-03-14 05:41:54 AM

Quit breeding.

aearra		2010-03-14 05:42:52 AM

America - Proud to lead the way from the first world to the third world.

Delay		2010-03-14 05:47:17 AM

Paulistinian: I especially love the part FTFA where it says:

"The US ranks 41st in the WHO's league table of maternal mortality, with a risk of women dying in childbirth at one in 4,800. Top of the league is Ireland with one in 47,600, which has partly to do with the small population"

Ok, if you're going to fark around with the numbers like this and you attribute lower deaths from birth because of a smaller population, UR DOIN IT RONG.

What research? The risk is presented as deaths per childbirths. That normalizes the two populations. 1/4,800 and 1/47,600. I suppose you could normalize to Ireland, then the US risk would be 10/47,600 and Ireland 1/47,600, but that would be kind of silly.

The population size is relevant in that it would be practical for the pregnant women in Ireland to find care. And if the pregnant Irish women find it they can obtain prenatal care. US, not so.

DrBenway		2010-03-14 05:49:32 AM

Huh. World Kool-Aid Organization, more like it. Anything to tear down the USA and the BEST HEATHKIT IN THE WORLD I supp-hose.

log_jammin		2010-03-14 05:50:00 AM

Omnis_evil_twin: WhyteRaven74: Apropos of nothing, anyone want some Doritos from China?
/of course it's hot, the pic, no idea about the chips

電気アンマis Japanese for "electric massage". It's kind of like a noogie, except it's on yer ballz. I've only see my elementary school students doing it once or twice. Used to be popular in pro wrestling.

Now it's more popular in lesbian porn. Like scissoring. I don't know if the actresses actually like it or not. Omnis_evil_boyfriend tried it once and Omnis_evil_vagina was not amused.

that post combined with the what you said in your profile make me both attracted to and deathly scared of you.

swahnhennessy		2010-03-14 05:54:29 AM

Nearly a third of all deliveries in the US are by caesarean section, which is a rate twice as high as that recommended by the WHO. Caesareans carry a risk of death three times as high as natural birth.

Seeing the headline, I immediately thought of C sections. The US has an assembly line mentality when it comes to childbirth and is notorious for making Cesareans standard. It is easier and faster for the hospital (hell, they can schedule your delivery), and few women complain since the alternative has been made to sound so barbaric and painful.

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor		2010-03-14 05:54:35 AM

Death rates among women in pregnancy and labour have doubled in the US from 6.6 per 100,000 in 1987 to 13.3 per 100,000 in 2006.

I'ma just point out the obvious. There may have been an influx of people who might negatively impact that statistic over that span of time.

static.howstuffworks.com

pippi longstocking		2010-03-14 05:59:25 AM

1. Because they don't get proper term treatment, because of high cots.
2. Overall care is substandard for a developed nation.
3. High costs.
4. The policy is to give them unnecessary cesareans so they can charge you a fortune.
5. No, there is no free market when health care policy is dictated by a few insurance groups.

lobootomy		2010-03-14 06:01:44 AM

Amnesty International would make native African birth survival rates higher than the US just to get money.

Nothing to see here. If they don't meet their agenda, they cannot survive.

log_jammin		2010-03-14 06:01:53 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: There may have been an influx of people who might negatively impact that statistic over that span of time.

so....so you're saying that women of Mexican ancestry are more prone to die during child birth than other women?

what gene causes that?

Purplebuzz		2010-03-14 06:02:39 AM

log_jammin: SilentStrider: well, you've convinced me. I'm going to vote republican.

That's why I do. Because both sides are the exact same.

Than relly, you could save yourself the time and not vote at all.

jbb		2010-03-14 06:03:21 AM

Ah what this article is basically saying is that they should steal people's money and use it to pay for poor people to have children. Nice

log_jammin		2010-03-14 06:04:48 AM

Purplebuzz: Than relly, you could save yourself the time and not vote at all.

why would i do that?

Wittenberg Dropout		2010-03-14 06:06:39 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: Death rates among women in pregnancy and labour have doubled in the US from 6.6 per 100,000 in 1987 to 13.3 per 100,000 in 2006.

I'ma just point out the obvious. There may have been an influx of people who might negatively impact that statistic over that span of time.

Lol, just to fill your racist ass in, many immigrants are going home because they would rather take their chances in a 3rd world country instead of getting 5 bucks an hour for scrubbing toilets for spoiled entitled brats that think they should graduate from high school and instantly get 6 figure paying jobs. Wont it be funny when your kids are crossing the border to the south to get jobs washing dishes or worse? But of course you'll just take the high road and disown them if they did because when America becomes the trailer park it's destined to become you'll probably already have your lot picked out with little pink flamingo's picketing around an astroturf lawn. Keep dreaming that american dream buddy.

Purplebuzz		2010-03-14 06:09:55 AM

Maybe the fact lies somewhere with American's inability to accept criticism of anything to do with America?

Look at it this way. You are the best at killing babies and mothers at birth. Well at least you beat Greece at it.

USA, USA, USA...

Purple_Jack		2010-03-14 06:11:34 AM

The Greeks have been known to seduce their women by turning into swans and other creatures. Have the effects of these unusual conception methods been adequately studied and factored in?

JustTheTip		2010-03-14 06:16:52 AM

Cagey B: That's an unfair comparison. People in Greece are not "born", as such, but spring fully-formed from their father's heads.

+1!

Or grow from his thigh...

ShannonKW		2010-03-14 06:19:14 AM

"Mothers die not because the United States can't provide good care, but because it lacks the political will to make sure good care is available to all women."

It's a democratic country. Apparently the majority of voters believe that babymaking is something you do on your own dime. (Damn. I actually agree with the government on something...) Those who wish to assist the underclass in producing impoverished children are free to donate for that purpose. Even WHO officers could contribute to such a worthy cause, if they can spare the time away from being outraged.

NannyStatePark		2010-03-14 06:25:12 AM

I think that alternative birth practices being trendy are to blame for this. I had regular prenatal care and hemorrhaged during delivery. If I hadn't been in the hospital I'd be dead. Instead, I got a shot.

Wonko Fortytwo		2010-03-14 06:25:28 AM

DEADLY DELIVERY The Amnesty International Report (new window)

Vlad the Impala		2010-03-14 06:25:34 AM

Cagey B: That's an unfair comparison. People in Greece are not "born", as such, but spring fully-formed from their father's heads.

Well played. I lol'd.

fdr		2010-03-14 06:30:21 AM

log_jammin		2010-03-14 06:35:34 AM

fdr: log_jammin: hmmm...lets see...*throws dart*

"The World Health Organization is run by liberals and the UN has bad countries who violate civil rights, therefore this study is wrong and it's just a way to make people more dependent on government. Oh. And this one form of cancer has a higher mortality rate in the UK than in the US. So there libtards."

So what are the correct numbers?

really? The *throws dart* and putting the whole comment in quotes wasn't obvious enough for you?

ambercat		2010-03-14 06:37:33 AM

log_jammin: Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: There may have been an influx of people who might negatively impact that statistic over that span of time.

so....so you're saying that women of Mexican ancestry are more prone to die during child birth than other women?

what gene causes that?

It's not a gene, it's a cultural issue. Don't go to the doctor, don't do any prenatal care (even though in California there are FREE clinics that are set up specifically to cater to spanish speaking illegal immigrants) and see what happens. Not to mention getting knocked up in rapid succession. The level of education and industrialization in Mexico is widely varied. Lots of people (especially those of native extraction) literally came from one room huts with all the education that implies, and a BABY BABY BABY GET KNOCKED UP EARLY mentality. Where I live the misconceptions people have about how to deal with common ailments are so severe that they do regular health PSAs over the spanish language radio stations periodically because that is the only way to educate people. Over stuff like what to do with diaper rash. Even then people don't always listen, preferring folk remedies instead.

People have to hook into wider social systems to get educated about stuff. If you don't speak the dominant language and you don't socialize or interact with other adults outside a social circle that is only comprised of people from your background with your education level or go out and read books or consciously attempt to educate yourself that is what happens. You think someone's fourth grader is going to come home from school and tell their mom about prenatal care? Or germ theory? What's 'common knowledge' to you isn't common knowledge to them. There are areas that are so dominantly Mexican now that people don't have to have much contact with non-spanish speakers or non-hispanics if they don't want to. Some people just make the choice to stay inside their comfort zone without having any idea of what other stuff is out there.

Mi-go amigo		2010-03-14 06:37:52 AM

Yeah, but America has the best health care in the world because America is the best place in the world and we don't need to think about changing anything because everything is awesome, and even if it isn't that's only because of the illegal immigrants and minorities who are ruining it for everyone else, but the WHO and the UN and all those other international organizations are all a bunch of liars anyway who are just tearing America down because they are jealous so this article is bullshiat go USA!!!1!eleven!

blackheart666		2010-03-14 06:43:14 AM

Wittenberg Dropout: Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: Death rates among women in pregnancy and labour have doubled in the US from 6.6 per 100,000 in 1987 to 13.3 per 100,000 in 2006.

I'ma just point out the obvious. There may have been an influx of people who might negatively impact that statistic over that span of time.

Lol, just to fill your racist ass in, many immigrants are going home because they would rather take their chances in a 3rd world country instead of getting 5 bucks an hour for scrubbing toilets for spoiled entitled brats that think they should graduate from high school and instantly get 6 figure paying jobs. Wont it be funny when your kids are crossing the border to the south to get jobs washing dishes or worse? But of course you'll just take the high road and disown them if they did because when America becomes the trailer park it's destined to become you'll probably already have your lot picked out with little pink flamingo's picketing around an astroturf lawn. Keep dreaming that american dream buddy.

LOL wut?
0/10

Ablejack		2010-03-14 06:46:22 AM

Excellent article.

Moray		2010-03-14 06:46:45 AM

The number went up from 6 to 13 deaths per 100,000 because of older, overweight women in the US who died from complications of a C-section birth. Thats 3X the risk factors walking in the door. This story was out about 8 weeks ago in the US.

fdr		2010-03-14 06:46:45 AM

log_jammin: fdr: log_jammin: hmmm...lets see...*throws dart*

"The World Health Organization is run by liberals and the UN has bad countries who violate civil rights, therefore this study is wrong and it's just a way to make people more dependent on government. Oh. And this one form of cancer has a higher mortality rate in the UK than in the US. So there libtards."

So what are the correct numbers?

really? The *throws dart* and putting the whole comment in quotes wasn't obvious enough for you?

Damm you got me.

log_jammin		2010-03-14 06:50:20 AM

ambercat: It's not a gene, it's a cultural issue. Don't go to the doctor, don't do any prenatal care (even though in California there are FREE clinics that are set up specifically to cater to spanish speaking illegal immigrants) and see what happens.

That completely contradicts the "illegals are whats making health care 'spensive!" talking point I always hear.

ascottlynn		2010-03-14 07:01:10 AM

USA! USA! USA!

Tomflry7		2010-03-14 07:01:43 AM

That's unpossible, we have the most expensive health care system in the world.

thamike		2010-03-14 07:04:51 AM

Tomflry7: That's unpossible, we have the most expensive health care system in the world.

And LASERS.

Mr. Right		2010-03-14 07:05:18 AM

The numbers in this report may or may not be accurate. It is fairly well established that the UN in general, and WHOand Amnesty International in particular have an anti-U.S. bias. Within the article, there are a couple of comments that should raise one's suspicions.

While claiming that there is inadequate access to health care in the U.S. it also reports that a third of births in the U.S. are C-section. Are these done at home? It also reports on the high number of minority women giving birth without health insurance. Would that number in any way correlate to the number of illegitimate births? We already know that children living in single parent homes are far more likely to live in poverty than children where both parents are lving together. Could it be that the lack of personal responsibility toward pregnancy and child-rearing (by fathers even more than mothers) puts mothers at greater risk than health care funding methodology?

The last paragraph ia the real kicker. "Amnesty says that the death rate in the US is probably even higher than it appears, because there is no federal requirement for the reporting of deaths in childbirth." This is eerily reminiscent of NOW's claim that only one in three rapes is reported, or violence against women is far more prevalent than is reported. How do they know? Is the reporting in every other country absolutely accurate?

I am not arguing that we don't have health care problems in this country. I would argue that groups like WHO and Amnesty Internatioanl lend nothing credible to the debate. Also from the article: Whatever form they finally take, President Obama's healthcare reforms will not resolve the crisis of unavailable and unaffordable maternal care, says Amnesty

Don't you guess Obama, Ried, and Pelosi along with all of their staffers who have been working so hard on the huge health care bill would be heartened to know that their work is futile because Amnesty International says so?

WhyteRaven74		2010-03-14 07:13:43 AM

Mr. Right: Is the reporting in every other country absolutely accurate?

The reporting is inline with what's already known. Also if check the methodology, it checks out. Oh and c-sections aren't all the same, quite a few are emergency c-sections, some percentage of which are required owing to a lack of proper pre-natal care.

bingethinker		2010-03-14 07:17:04 AM

Ah, the American healthcare system. If you're rich, it's the best in the world. No money? You might as well be in a third-world country.

thamike		2010-03-14 07:24:08 AM

Mister Gone: What an American childbirth might look like.

Don't let it happen to you!!!

LIAR! It's all British!

Mr. Right		2010-03-14 07:39:44 AM

WhyteRaven74: Mr. Right: Is the reporting in every other country absolutely accurate?

The reporting is inline with what's already known. Also if check the methodology, it checks out. Oh and c-sections aren't all the same, quite a few are emergency c-sections, some percentage of which are required owing to a lack of proper pre-natal care.

What is it that drives a lack of proper pre-natal care? In our state, there are welfare programs of every size, shape, and description for low-income, no-income, single mothers or families. Lack of insurance should be no deterrent.

The article claims a lack of political will. On what basis do they make that claim? Is that from the same statistical pool of data that assures us that nothing Obama's health care bill will do can fix the problem?

gund		2010-03-14 07:39:53 AM

Mr. Right: The numbers in this report may or may not be accurate. It is fairly well established that the UN in general, and WHOand Amnesty International in particular have an anti-U.S. bias. Within the article, there are a couple of comments that should raise one's suspicions.

While claiming that there is inadequate access to health care in the U.S. it also reports that a third of births in the U.S. are C-section. Are these done at home? It also reports on the high number of minority women giving birth without health insurance. Would that number in any way correlate to the number of illegitimate births? We already know that children living in single parent homes are far more likely to live in poverty than children where both parents are lving together. Could it be that the lack of personal responsibility toward pregnancy and child-rearing (by fathers even more than mothers) puts mothers at greater risk than health care funding methodology?

The last paragraph ia the real kicker. "Amnesty says that the death rate in the US is probably even higher than it appears, because there is no federal requirement for the reporting of deaths in childbirth." This is eerily reminiscent of NOW's claim that only one in three rapes is reported, or violence against women is far more prevalent than is reported. How do they know? Is the reporting in every other country absolutely accurate?

I am not arguing that we don't have health care problems in this country. I would argue that groups like WHO and Amnesty Internatioanl lend nothing credible to the debate. Also from the article: Whatever form they finally take, President Obama's healthcare reforms will not resolve the crisis of unavailable and unaffordable maternal care, says Amnesty

Don't you guess Obama, Ried, and Pelosi along with all of their staffers who have been working so hard on the huge health care bill would be heartened to know that their work is futile because Amnesty International says so?

Your post is full of bias that you accuse the opposite side of being guilty off.

Lets only state the obvious ones, that should be more than enough.
1. Inadequate access and C-sections. How from two separate contributing factors, you lead to asking whether those C-sections are done at home, is quite the jump. And is just your bias speaking. Quite likely, it's C-sections for those with access. Two separate contributing factors here, higher C-section rate, and inadequate access (prenatal care).

2. You use words like "we already know". Citations please. You just accused them of not citing, a news article that describes some research that probably actually has citations and data. Maybe you should go request the data and analyze it for us.

3. They said "probably higher", they didn't actually come out like NOW and give a higher rate and state that's factual did they? Obviously the actual rate is greater or equal to the reported rate. It can't actually be less than unless there are fake reports. You would have to show that. Not provide a poor analogy.

4. Why ask whether the reporting in other countries are absolutely accurate? The obvious answer is no. What's your point? That does not imply or reflect bias. You actually have to show it instead of just rambling off.

5. They say the current healthcare reform proposed won't help maternal care. You didn't show that to be untrue. And that obviously doesn't make it useless to other types of care. To actually state such a lie is quite sad.

6. You say WHO and amnesty don't lend anything to the debate. How so? Don't just state something that isn't obvious. They provided a report with stats, you provided nothing.

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor		2010-03-14 07:47:03 AM

log_jammin: so....so you're saying that women of Mexican ancestry are more prone to die during child birth than other women?

what gene causes that?

What gene? Poverty. The vast majority of those immigrants here illegally are poor. Good to know you see things only the in the prism of race though, racist.

thamike		2010-03-14 07:49:00 AM

Mr. Right: The numbers in this report may or may not be accurate.

You might as well post pictures of your cats, after you have tormented them to the point of making an expression you can convince yourself is "laughter."

log_jammin		2010-03-14 07:49:48 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: Good to know you see things only the in the prism of race though, racist.

what?? you brought it up. not me.

thamike		2010-03-14 07:49:55 AM

Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: What gene? Poverty

Poverty's genetic?

Rohasman		2010-03-14 07:57:06 AM

thamike: Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: What gene? Poverty

Poverty's genetic?

Well, wealth is inheritable. Of course, it only runs in your jeans if you've got a hole in your pocket.

Nightjars		2010-03-14 07:57:43 AM

thamike: Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor: What gene? Poverty

Poverty's genetic?

You can tell paupers by the holes in their genes.

thamike		2010-03-14 07:58:43 AM

You two need to dance around.

Mr. Right		2010-03-14 08:00:40 AM

gund:
You'd be better off drinking coffee than AI Kool-aid.

category_five		2010-03-14 08:01:16 AM

Rohasman		2010-03-14 08:03:12 AM

Rohasman: Well, wealth is inheritable. Of course, it only runs in your jeans if you've got a hole in your pocket.

Nightjars: You can tell paupers by the holes in their genes.

So... close... to... simul... post...

tony41454		2010-03-14 08:03:37 AM

Propaganda to promote government run health care. Any "world organization" has already been compromised by liberal agendas.

thamike		2010-03-14 08:05:57 AM

Mr. Right: gund:
You'd be better off drinking coffee than AI Kool-aid.

weblogs.baltimoresun.com

That's not very sportsman-like.

thamike		2010-03-14 08:07:16 AM

tony41454: Propaganda to promote government run health care. Any "world organization" has already been compromised by liberal agendas.

I know syllables are new to you, but could you please attempt to explain yourself?

Uncle Tractor		2010-03-14 08:11:07 AM

Mr. Right: The numbers in this report may or may not be accurate. It is fairly well established that the UN in general, and WHOand Amnesty International in particular have an anti-U.S. bias.

Seems more like it's reality that has an anti-US bias. (well, an anti-Republican bias, anyway)

thamike		2010-03-14 08:11:09 AM

What;s that squeaking noise?

Jim_Callahan		2010-03-14 08:12:38 AM

When the number is "basically none" for every remotely civilized country, simple randomness is going to lead to pretty large % differences.

And, to balance out having implicitly said something positive on the internet, what Mr. Right said about the UN and its subsidiaries. Though, in this case, we're talking about Amnesty International, which, for all its good work, is to a large degree a lobbying organization (and not part of the UN unless something'c changed since I last checked) with a very, very pronounced set of agendas. I'll believe them right after I accept MADD's claim that 110% of traffic accidents are caused by drunk drivers and the NRA's that 99% of gun use is actually by nonviolent pacifists being attacked by Nazis.

//I hyperbolize with all love, I actually like the NRA. Can't say that for MADD, but still.
//I'd also except WHO from the generalization. They have serious work to do, unlike most UN-sponsored organizations. They keep their statisticians on-topic and under control with the speculating.

Nayest		2010-03-14 08:17:10 AM

Cagey B: head

So. Win.

Nayest		2010-03-14 08:18:43 AM

Cagey B: That's an unfair comparison. People in Greece are not "born", as such, but spring fully-formed from their father's heads.

Very very Win.

OscarTamerz		2010-03-14 08:20:18 AM

Here's a real shocker for the liberturds at amnesty, some people deserve to die. If you've been convicted of a capital crime and are executed then you deserve to die. If you get pregnant and weigh 400 pounds and smoke meth and your first visit to the doctor occurs about the same time as your third hour of contractions then you deserve to die. Especially if your placenta covers the exit to the uterus, a condition called placenta previa, which mean the placenta is ripped to shreds by the baby well that causes mommy to loose a unit of blood every minute or so and even if she weighs 400 pounds that puts her life expectancy at around 5 to 10 minutes. This is especially true if mommy is so fat she didn't even realize she was pregnant. You just don't see walruses waddling around Europe like this.

t3.gstatic.com

pestluvr		2010-03-14 08:22:23 AM

Party-sized bucket of flan: Quit breeding.

Quit breathing.

Riffington		2010-03-14 08:26:17 AM

As an anesthesiologist who does obstetrics, I'm really getting a kick out of these replies...

Maternal death is not "dying in childbirth". The article just misunderstood. It's any death during pregnancy or up to 42 days after the pregnancy ends.

So: top causes of maternal death in industrialized countries: Trauma* (homicide and auto), preeclampsia, hemorrhage, pulmonary embolism.

Trauma is obviously higher in the US than most European nations; this will be difficult to fix. Preeclampsia and pulmonary embolism are highly related to obesity/race; hemorrhage less so.

Obviously it would be great to fix obesity, violence, and driving. Let's assume for now that we can't. The main thing that can be fixed are delays. Right now, there are major delays caused by difficulties in transportation and delays in the decision to seek care in the US. There is a lot of work that can be done to reduce those delays.

*some statistics don't count it, but it's by far the main cause.

OregonVet		2010-03-14 08:42:21 AM

Wittenberg Dropout:

Lol, just to fill your racist ass in, many immigrants are going home because they would rather take their chances in a 3rd world country instead of getting 5 bucks an hour for scrubbing toilets for spoiled entitled brats that think they should graduate from high school and instantly get 6 figure paying jobs. Wont it be funny when your kids are crossing the border to the south to get jobs washing dishes or worse? But of course you'll just take the high road and disown them if they did because when America becomes the trailer park it's destined to become you'll probably already have your lot picked out with little pink flamingo's picketing around an astroturf lawn. Keep dreaming that american dream buddy.

4/10 (I would score that a little higher if it weren't obvious you'd have to be sofa king retarded to believe that typing would be too great of a challenge.)

proteus_b		2010-03-14 08:44:56 AM

greece, where you have to bribe the doctor to operate---and that's even after having both "free public insurance" and a private insurance plan.

greece, the only third world nation in western europe. yea, let's emulate them, libtards.

DeathByGeekSquad		2010-03-14 08:47:20 AM

v"Mothers die not because the United States can't provide good care, but because it lacks the political will to make sure good care is available to all women."

That's right, let us round up all of the pregnant women who fall below the poverty line and put them in a birthing community where they are watched 24/7, not allowed to fark, smoke, drink, or eat unhealthy things.

Oh, that wasn't what you meant you shill of an article? Too bad. Irresponsibility on the part of the mother does not mean shiat.

AnyName		2010-03-14 08:48:57 AM

Riffington

Excuse me but we're trying to scream about our horrific .02% rate of mothers dying in childbirth. Please take your helpful information elsewhere.

Witchyman		2010-03-14 08:51:18 AM

I blame it all on a lack of Windex in delivery rooms.

/snark off

My g/f is pregnant. She is getting excellent care through our health insurance from work. I'm old. She's not.

We're gonna be just fine.

farkeruk		2010-03-14 08:51:28 AM

Does anyone have a link to the actual report? Because Unicef's report on this (http://www.unicef.org/pon96/leag1wom.htm) states that the US is actually equal 13th worst, not 41st.

miltoncharles		2010-03-14 08:52:58 AM

OscarTamerz: If you get pregnant and weigh 400 pounds and smoke meth and your first visit to the doctor occurs about the same time as your third hour of contractions then you deserve to die.

THIS

Seriously, my wife worked for OB-GYNs for a couple of decades. Every single lost-mother case was similar to this. They came in the door late in the final trimester, had had zero pre-natal care and would have sent a tox-screen off the charts. Those that didn't die had kids with birth defects. They would sue the clinic and frequently win. The last Dr my wife worked for stopped doing obstetrics because he couldn't afford the insurance anymore.

HelenKellersFingers		2010-03-14 08:53:27 AM

stop breeding. that's the ticket.

Fupac		2010-03-14 09:01:19 AM

AFWX: Gordon Bennett: Interestingly enough it was my father who died as a result of childbirth.

All I can say to you Farkers is that while it is normally OK to go down on your woman while she is pregnant, you don't want to be there when her water breaks.

So would that be earning your "baby wings"?

How about water wings?

Jim_Callahan		2010-03-14 09:02:26 AM

miltoncharles:
Seriously, my wife worked for OB-GYNs for a couple of decades. Every single lost-mother case was similar to this. They came in the door late in the final trimester, had had zero pre-natal care and would have sent a tox-screen off the charts. Those that didn't die had kids with birth defects. They would sue the clinic and frequently win. The last Dr my wife worked for stopped doing obstetrics because he couldn't afford the insurance anymore.

There's no reason an Obstetrician should ever lose a birth-defect case. In fact, they should automatically be rejected with prejudice by judges as frivolous, as I'm pretty sure not a single one, ever, has had the slightest merit.

//Juries... so very farking gullible.
//Though most of the issue there is that Ob_Gyns working for hospitals settle automatically. Private practice ones tend to actually go to court, which typically results in a big legal "fark you" to the plaintiff-- sometimes, the prosecuting lawyer immediately starts backing off once the case gets to court for fear of being named in a countersuit.

cookiefleck		2010-03-14 09:03:48 AM

That's one of my biggest fears...Dying in chiildbirth. I fear it because im little(um 5 ft,yo)and because of that there could be complicatons? Like I would never drink or do drugs or not go to a doctor while preggers, so crazy prolly. But my sister has fears of randomly being attacked while preggers, so I dunno what that says about us.

Phil Herup		2010-03-14 09:06:57 AM

pippi longstocking:

1. Because they don't get proper term treatment, because of high costs.
2. Overall care is substandard for a developed nation.
3. High costs.
4. The policy is to give them unnecessary cesareans so they can charge you a fortune.
5. No, there is no free market when health care policy is dictated by a few insurance groups.

Progressive lies not ghetting called out on FARK?

It's moar likely than you think.

SystemFault		2010-03-14 09:08:34 AM

The inner city single moms skew the US numbers high. It's not uncommon for these moms to NEVER see a physician during pregnancy. One big reason: crime and local taxation have chased away all nearby doctors just as these factors have chased away the supermarkets and the big box stores. (Detroit is jam packed with single moms and their bastard offspring, but there's not a single supermarket or Walmart in the city.)

Is it my fault that these single moms are pregnant? No, I kept my pants on.

Is it my fault that inner city crime and taxation has chased away doctors? No, I'm not a criminal and I believe people should be able to keep most of what they make.

Rigorous, mandatory birth control and sterilization initiatives will solve the problem. Everything else has failed.

Fupac		2010-03-14 09:09:24 AM

Cold1s		2010-03-14 09:10:15 AM

Gawds, that IS sad.

Phil Herup		2010-03-14 09:18:56 AM

Cold1s: Gawds, that IS sad.

Don't worry.

It is not true.

Remember the socialists will lie to preserve the system. The W.H.O. will weigh the priority of FREE Care unfairly over the actual superb quality of care delivered to millions of people everyday.

People who trust the rankings put out by the World Health Organization are idiots.

liverleef		2010-03-14 09:22:56 AM

I was somewhat surprised to see that native Americans were singled out in the article. I worked on an Indian reservation and they get good medical care free. They do not, however, take care of themselves. Obesity, alcoholism, diabetes and drug abuse are all extremely common.

Ctrl-Alt-Del		2010-03-14 09:23:22 AM

OscarTamerz: Here's a real shocker for the liberturds at amnesty, some people deserve to die. If you've been convicted of a capital crime and are executed then you deserve to die. If you get pregnant and weigh 400 pounds and smoke meth and your first visit to the doctor occurs about the same time as your third hour of contractions then you deserve to die. Especially if your placenta covers the exit to the uterus, a condition called placenta previa, which mean the placenta is ripped to shreds by the baby well that causes mommy to loose a unit of blood every minute or so and even if she weighs 400 pounds that puts her life expectancy at around 5 to 10 minutes. This is especially true if mommy is so fat she didn't even realize she was pregnant. You just don't see walruses waddling around Europe like this.

"Liberturds" : a refreshing new twist on "Libtard", and just as stupid sounding. Nice.

"some people deserve to die": Over the top Randian survivalist frothing. Also nice.

"If you get pregnant and weigh 400 pounds and smoke meth ": demonization of desired target by ridiculously exaggerated strawmen. Well Done.

The barely literate run-on sentence talking about placenta previa adds value, too.

But seriously - all that effort just to post some fat-hate? C'mon, dude, nobody's gonna buy it. that kind of slackjawed ignorance is best left for political issues. If you want to troll the fatties, ditch the basement dwelling survivalist schtick and go with something a bit more subtle.

Fupac		2010-03-14 09:28:06 AM

Phil Herup: Cold1s: Gawds, that IS sad.

Don't worry.

It is not true.

Remember the socialists will lie to preserve the system. The W.H.O. will weigh the priority of FREE Care unfairly over the actual superb quality of care delivered to millions of people everyday.

People who trust the rankings put out by the World Health Organization are idiots.

Phil, I just read your profile. That is farking awesome! I have never seen so much disdain in one profile. Keep up the good work.

EmmaLou		2010-03-14 09:28:49 AM

I'm not a doctor, but using common sense I agree with the proper care argument. I've got a friend who's 4 months along now with her second child and she's been telling me about all of the tests they do, even in the first trimester. (Basically cuz I'm super interested because I've never been pregnant.) I would assume if you were able to and made the effort to go to the doctor from the beginning, the risks would be minimal.

Rohasman		2010-03-14 09:29:46 AM

cookiefleck: That's one of my biggest fears...Dying in chiildbirth. I fear it because im little(um 5 ft,yo)and because of that there could be complicatons? Like I would never drink or do drugs or not go to a doctor while preggers, so crazy prolly. But my sister has fears of randomly being attacked while preggers, so I dunno what that says about us.

As long as they stay worries, and don't get to be anything more, it's all ok.

spawn73		2010-03-14 09:31:21 AM

proteus_b: greece, where you have to bribe the doctor to operate---and that's even after having both "free public insurance" and a private insurance plan.

greece, the only third world nation in western europe. yea, let's emulate them, libtards.

No libtard, there's no need to emulate Greece.

Libtard, I think it would be more prudent to emulate any other western European country that also does better.

rlongenbach		2010-03-14 09:34:46 AM

Jim_Callahan:
There's no reason an Obstetrician should ever lose a birth-defect case..

Well, unfortunately, they do.

Because an attorney will find some "expert" to say that the OB failed to do something during delivery. And as a result the "defect" was caused by a lack of oxygen during delivery, even for 0.5 seconds, and appeals to the jury about how hard it will be for the mom to raise this child without financial help.

Ever wonder why the US has the highest c-section rate in the world? (Which the article does mention, but doesn't even address) Because OBs have been scared into doing them even when not-needed, as the legal "standard" of care demands it to reduce the chances of a malpractice suit.

SCHIP already covers the women mentioned in the article. And how many other countries have programs in place to make sure that non-native language speakers are aware of the programs already in place? I know that CA and TX publish billboards about SCHIP in Spanish. The question is, how many of them can read their own language? (that is a factor)

I'd love to see how many of these deaths are post c-section. Mainly because I think that is the largest factor involved, but they probably don't have the data broken down that far. (or they've lost the original data)

mea.culpa		2010-03-14 09:35:47 AM

Studies like this always annoy me. Sure, the numbers are bad if you count the hoi poli, but I mean, we only gave citizenship to everybody to settle down the plebs in the first place. I mean really, the patricians are the only real citizens and they are well taken care of. If you checked the rates of the actual citizens, and not every warm body crammed into the slums, you'd see that we have the best health care in the world!

And in my opinion, Carthage must be destroyed.

FarKnight		2010-03-14 09:38:01 AM

Here's an idea....if you're poor, don't have a frkking baby.

Smackledorfer		2010-03-14 09:39:19 AM

Jim_Callahan: when the number is "basically none" for every remotely civilized country, simple randomness is going to lead to pretty large % differences.

Not really. When you are dealing with a sample size of hundreds of millions, its unlikely randomness would make one group have 2-3 (or 5) times as much of something happening w/o an actual cause.

That doesn't mean that blame can be placed on our health insurance industry though.

Without Fail		2010-03-14 09:41:29 AM

Phil Herup: Cold1s: Gawds, that IS sad.

Don't worry.

It is not true.

Remember the socialists will lie to preserve the system. The W.H.O. will weigh the priority of FREE Care unfairly over the actual superb quality of care delivered to millions of people everyday.

People who trust the rankings put out by the World Health Organization are idiots.

Remember: Racist, conservative shills will lie to preserve the status quo.

Hi Phil!

Damn Man		2010-03-14 09:43:34 AM

There is just too much fail in here to really comment. I swear to God I could talk half you stupid motherfarkers into thinking I was doing you a favor in having a 7 foot fat ass biker bear rape you in the ass every other day.

Also Nightie don't call me Wig: I guarantee this country's rich white folk beat Ireland for the top spot per capita.

Way to inject race into an argument where it has no place. Rich people period. The only color that matters is green. Think Obama's wife and kids get worse services over their fellow white Ivy league alum? Think the "Melanin-American" doctors kids are gonna have a harder time at life than a white prison guards kids?

TheGreatGazoo		2010-03-14 09:45:59 AM

For a lot of these deaths it is the symptom of other problems, like drug abuse, no prenatal care, and generally not caring about your own body. If you care about your body you don't take meth and crack. You don't smoke or drink yourself silly. You do what you have to so your weight is reasonable.

The other problem I see is that the doctors don't seem to treat c sections as major surgery. Yea it can save everyone's life but some hospitals do them for almost half of all births. Others have them down to about 20%.

Slartibartfaster		2010-03-14 09:49:55 AM

log_jammin: So there libtards

proteus_b: let's emulate them, libtards

Why do you hate liberals ?
4.bp.blogspot.com

and retards

static.thehollywoodgossip.com

need one of these ?

yesutopia.org

Phil Herup		2010-03-14 09:51:02 AM

rlongenbach: Because an attorney will find some "expert" to say that the OB failed to do something during delivery. And as a result the "defect" was caused by a lack of oxygen during delivery, even for 0.5 seconds, and appeals to the jury about how hard it will be for the mom to raise this child without financial help.

"Hi... I made $50 million doing just that for years. I even made stuff up and used junk science, to ruin doctors' lives. Then even though I had wads of cash, I still misappropriated campaign funds to attempt to cover up the birth of a child that was not my wife's. I then denied that I was the babby's daddy for a couple of years. Idiots still voted for me because I am a pretty boy."

scrapetv.com

Slartibartfaster		2010-03-14 09:55:08 AM

TheGreatGazoo: Others have them down to about 20%.

Ive been living in this great nation for almost 5 years
4 of my friends have given birth in that time, one is about to
every single one of them are cesarean

my daughter was born here (in California)
health care was superb (very very expensive, for the total cost from conception to weaning I could have purchased a house where I am from.... 5 figure medical "bills" should be questioned, I did, managed to knock off some of the more openly dishonest charges, still had to pay 5 figures, and the first digit wasnt a 1)

Cesareans are WAY too common here... my pregnant friend has a set date for birth, ... we just organized babysitters who can attend on really short notice

maxwahrhaftig		2010-03-14 09:55:12 AM

basemetal: Meh, you probably have to factor in all of the people who ... got fertility treatments...

There are many factors like this that clearly weren't controlled for. What about people doing home births, or other "alternative" births that involve being away from medical attention by choice? I'm not saying the data are wrong, I'm saying it's hard to tell if they're right. To simply say that the rate of deaths during childbirth are five times higher in one country than another is not enough information upon which to suggest policy change.

Mister Gone		2010-03-14 09:55:35 AM

Wittenberg Dropout: Lol, just to fill your racist ass in,

lol

/ass filler

Phil Herup		2010-03-14 09:56:04 AM

TheGreatGazoo: The other problem I see is that the doctors don't seem to treat c sections as major surgery.

100% pure BS.

Abdominal surgery involving two patients is a big deal, and no doc would ever make anything light of it.

Five Minute Standup		2010-03-14 09:56:51 AM

Mr. Shabooboo: United Nations Organization - World Health Organization..

/Get a Clue people!!

The UN is really a front for Voldemort! My god!

museisluse		2010-03-14 10:01:42 AM

JustFark		2010-03-14 10:01:56 AM

The only rational thing to do is to send all high-risk pregnant women and potential high-risk women to Greece, where they stand a chance to live. Clearly health care in the USA is a death sentence.

stiletto_the_wise		2010-03-14 10:09:10 AM

It's interesting to see everyone here jumping in to blame:

* The patients
* The doctors
* The World Health Organization
* Liberals
* Socialists
* Entire ethnic groups
* Trial lawyers

It's like you live in a world with comic-book-style villains plotting to destroy you. Put a few brain cells together.

clowncar on fire		2010-03-14 10:13:06 AM

The US ranks 41st in the WHO's league table of maternal mortality, with a risk of women dying in childbirth at one in 4,800. Top of the league is Ireland with one in 47,600, which has partly to do with the small population, followed by Bosnia and Herzegovina and then Italy and Greece. The UK ranks 26th with a risk of one in 8,200.

I was going to get all snarky about give-peace-a-chance thing as the counties that lead us have historically more violent histories or that Amnesty hates the US and would never skew the info...

Contributing factors left out: lack of eductiion in regards to giving birth (ignorance does not discriminate), acts of neglegence on the part of the mothers to be (we all know at least one or more future moms still engaged in drinking, smoking, drugs, poor nutrition, etc) which tend harm the fetus and increase complications at birth, and my favorite peeve- the over use of epidural and labor drugs and cesarean birth as elective" or convenience methods of delivery.

My wife, who worked in healthcare in Japan, was rather shocked to see - and personally expirience-- the amount of over medication, artificially induced labor, and willingness to proceed with surgical means all in the name of conveience (for both the staff as well as the patient) and patient comfort. Each of these procedures in themselves increase mortality rates in child birth in themselves but many are used in tandem increasing the risk still further.

To be fair though, this article states that this has may be about the disparity in the quality of healthcare the pre- and post- natal care available to the mom's-to-be but also states that the proposed healthcare bill will do little to address the root causes of infant mortality in the USA.

Con_Authority		2010-03-14 10:14:46 AM

thamike: Whether or not it's true, at least U.S. doctors don't put out their cigarettes on your belly during delivery.

No, they just carve their initials on the mother's stomach during labor.

Link (new window)

kukukupo		2010-03-14 10:20:16 AM

In 2005 (first study I could find), there were 14 per 1,000 giving birth in the US, and 9 per 1,000 in Greece, and 11 per 1,000 in the UK (the article mentions the UK, but does not give Greece's statistic)

Pop. per units births
U.S. : 300,000,000 / 1,000 = 300,000 * 14 = 4,200,000 births
Greece: 11,000,000 / 1,000 = 11,000 * 9 = 99,000 births
U. K. 62,000,000 / 1,000 = 62,000 * 11 = 682,000 births

That means the U.S. gave birth to 42 times as many people as Greece, and six times as many as the UK. That means every month the U.S. has 3.5 times as many births as Greece has in an entire year.

According to the article, one in 4,800 is the risk of death in the US. They don't give Greece's rating, so I will go with the UK, which is one in 8,200 (ranked 17 spots above the U.S.).

That means :

Births/year Units
4,200,000 / 4,800 = 875 x 1 = 875 deaths per ~4 million or .02% die in childbirth

682,000 / 8,200 = 83 x 1 83 deaths per 682,000. If we try to get the percentage to compare, it is almost nothing.

So, the difference between the US (41st) and the U.K. (24th) is between 0.0 and 0.02% of the births.

Please keep in mind numbers are rounded.

//sources
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_bir_rat_cru_per_1000_peo-crude-per-1-000- p eople
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom
This article

Nightjars		2010-03-14 10:22:19 AM

stiletto_the_wise: It's like you live in a world with comic-book-style villains plotting to destroy you. Put a few brain cells together.

I'm amazed nobody's called out Obama for his expectant mother killing ways.

Con_Authority		2010-03-14 10:27:30 AM

I hope you folks realize that as you're arguing about Liberals and Conservative failings, the politicians you have elected, both republican and democratic are figuring out how to move your wealth to the pockets of the corporate interests that funded their campaigns. They're slowly restricting your liberties and empowering corporate interests at the expense of your health and the future stability of this country.

Argue on fools... or wake up and focus on the real problems

Nightjars		2010-03-14 10:28:47 AM

Con_Authority: I hope you folks realize that as you're arguing about Liberals and Conservative failings, the politicians you have elected, both republican and democratic are figuring out how to move your wealth to the pockets of the corporate interests that funded their campaigns. They're slowly restricting your liberties and empowering corporate interests at the expense of your health and the future stability of this country.

Argue on fools... or wake up and focus on the real problems

LOUD NOISES

do you love lamp perchance?

illuminaeti		2010-03-14 10:29:12 AM

Are those the same people who predicted everybody would die from pig flu?

cryinoutloud		2010-03-14 10:30:00 AM

I would have died in childbirth twice--well, once would be enough, wouldn't it?--from just not being able to get the baby out, and then from what used to be called "childbed fever." But they saved me, all that modern medicine. Emergency C-section and antibiotics.

And before you start saying, So why did you have TWO, if the first one almost killed you?--the first baby died.

Sometimes babies die. Someone doesn't always need to be sued over it. That's why you had to have a C-section, because somebody got sued.

dwh1963		2010-03-14 10:32:32 AM

thamike: Mister Gone: What an American childbirth might look like.

Don't let it happen to you!!!

LIAR! It's all British!

You can tell because the baby's teeth are all farked up.

clowncar on fire		2010-03-14 10:37:04 AM

DrBenway: Huh. World Kool-Aid Organization, more like it. Anything to tear down the USA and the BEST HEATHKIT IN THE WORLD I supp-hose.

store.cq-amateur-radio.com

A new generation of nerd's building crystal radios instead of impregnating or getting impregnated: This Obama Heathkit idea might just catch on yet.

Thrakkerzog		2010-03-14 10:38:46 AM

cryinoutloud: I would have died in childbirth twice--well, once would be enough, wouldn't it?--from just not being able to get the baby out, and then from what used to be called "childbed fever." But they saved me, all that modern medicine. Emergency C-section and antibiotics.

And before you start saying, So why did you have TWO, if the first one almost killed you?--the first baby died.

Sometimes babies die. Someone doesn't always need to be sued over it. That's why you had to have a C-section, because somebody got sued.

Well, I was getting ready to dish out some snark, but.. that sucks. =/

Being there for the birth of my two children was the most happy and terrifying moments of my life. The first one went well, and the second one did too, but it took them a LONG time to stop the bleeding. When the nurses look concerned, you know something is not going according to plan.

Thrakkerzog		2010-03-14 10:39:26 AM

clowncar on fire: A new generation of nerd's building crystal radios instead of impregnating or getting impregnate

You've summed up Germany's problems quite well!

Musto		2010-03-14 10:40:37 AM

/I've studied these reports in a few college classes...which makes me an Internet Expert!

Even in "developed" European countries a majority of women give birth outside of a hospital. The one interesting thing I learned was that if a mother dies in childbirth it is often listed as a "natural" death. Statistics are only as accurate as the information included.

Mother Nature can be a biatch!

/slashes before and after biatch!

swahnhennessy		2010-03-14 10:42:33 AM

Musto: Even in "developed" European countries a majority of women give birth outside of a hospital.

Yeah, OK.

dwh1963		2010-03-14 10:45:33 AM

DNRTFA, but did the WHO use rates provided by the respective governments, or did they analyze all the source data themselves?

Because if they used the rates given, the study is fatally flawed, because nobody counts death rates the same.

BunkyBrewman		2010-03-14 10:45:41 AM

illuminaeti: Are those the same people who predicted everybody would die from pig flu?

No. That was the liberal media.

/or was it Glenn Beck?

Stupid Floppy Clownshoes		2010-03-14 10:46:45 AM

Phil Herup: TheGreatGazoo: The other problem I see is that the doctors don't seem to treat c sections as major surgery.

100% pure BS.

Abdominal surgery involving two patients is a big deal, and no doc would ever make anything light of it.

There's a little bit of truth to what TheGreatGazoo wrote, at least in my experience. My wife's C-section went very quickly, and while I know the doctors took it seriously, the way in which they stuffed her innards back through the incision seemed sort of like that scene in Braveheart in reverse.

C-sections are expedient and done in a all-too blase way. In our case, her regular OB-GYN couldn't be bothered to come from a golf outing to perform the operation, so a couple of doctors we had never met did the operation.

This was after 54 hours of labor. No doctor around that whole time, I shiat you not. And this was at an adjunct of the Riley Hospital, one of the best in the world.

Luckily, our boy was fine, although he came out six weeks early.

Smackledorfer		2010-03-14 10:51:45 AM

kukukupo: Please keep in mind numbers are rounded.

Why would you expect to have any significant results after dropping most of the digits?

Nightjars		2010-03-14 10:54:33 AM

Smackledorfer: Why would you expect to have any significant results after dropping most of the digits?

This is about pregnant women, not lepers.

Random Reality Check		2010-03-14 11:30:06 AM

tony41454: Propaganda to promote government run health care. Any "world organization" has already been compromised by liberal agendas.

It's an amazingly simple world you live in, isn't it?

So, when them liberals claim Fox News is full of it and then go on to present facts to show that the information Fox News presented is incorrect - it's easy in your world, you just think to yourself, those facts are liberal facts and liberal facts are wrong.

So, smart ass, have you any sources that can reliably show that this information is wrong - you know, aside from Fox News?

Random Reality Check		2010-03-14 11:31:13 AM

Con_Authority: ^{I hope you folks realize that as you're arguing about Liberals and Conservative failings, the politicians you have elected, both republican and democratic are figuring out how to move your wealth to the pockets of the corporate interests that funded their campaigns. They're slowly restricting your liberties and empowering corporate interests at the expense of your health and the future stability of this country.

Argue on fools... or wake up and focus on the real problems}

So, both sides are bad, you say?
Tell me, who should I vote for?

Random Reality Check		2010-03-14 11:35:12 AM

dwh1963: Because if they used the rates given, the study is fatally flawed, because nobody counts death rates the same.

When death rates are counted in X deaths per hundred thousand, it's kind of hard to screw up those numbers.

Have you had your coffee this morning?
If not, have you given any consideration towards doing so?
If you have, have you considered that you just made a complete fool out of yourself?

Just asking...

FarkinNortherner		2010-03-14 11:35:52 AM

dwh1963: Because if they used the rates given, the study is fatally flawed, because nobody counts death rates the same.

Nobody counts death rates the same in the adult population? I think I'm going to need a citation for that.

Perhaps you were trying to rely on the talking point that some countries count infant mortality in a different manner and that this nullifies any comparison? Even if that were true, which it isn't, it hasn't got anything to do with TFA.

/not going to hold my breath for the citation
//wouldn't want to add to the numbers

featherspy		2010-03-14 11:37:02 AM

Well when they pump the mom full of drugs to speed up contractions, then dull the pain, then more speed because dulling the pain makes the contractions slow, to the point where she can barely even sign the paper that says "Because of all those drugs we gave you, your baby is now in danger and we need to do an emergency C-section!" what do you expect?

Watch The Business of Being Born a documentary produced by Ricki Lake. It's terrifying but good.

clowncar on fire		2010-03-14 11:42:00 AM

Con_Authority: thamike: Whether or not it's true, at least U.S. doctors don't put out their cigarettes on your belly during delivery.

No, they just carve their initials on the mother's stomach during labor.

Working from the clinical engineering side of the house, I can personally vouch that improper/inadvertant grounding and technique while using an electrosurgical generator often leaves behind some quirky and suspicious burn marks, ranging from minor rashes and red marks, welting and blistering, and on rare occaisions, unintended lacerations and subcutaneous burns.

Unless this ass actually carved or burnt his name into the patient, only a medical pathologist would be able to differentiate between intentional and coincidental runes found on the patient.

I tried googling electrosugical burns- they only seem to want to dwell on the more serious damage which, while intiguing, does not represent the vast majority of mundane burns that result in little more than a rash. I'm sure one of our resident farkers with the clinical medical expertise can back me up on this one.

simkatu		2010-03-14 11:48:57 AM

jbb: Ah what this article is basically saying is that they should steal people's money and use it to pay for poor people to have children. Nice

Let me guess. You don't mind that "they" steal people's money and hand it over to defense contractors to make cowardly killing machines to kill folks with brown skin from miles away?

Reverend Monkeypants		2010-03-14 11:49:29 AM

But but but the US has superior... something... O yeah, elective surgery ROCKS in the US!

paquerette		2010-03-14 11:59:32 AM

NannyStatePark: I think that alternative birth practices being trendy are to blame for this. I had regular prenatal care and hemorrhaged during delivery. If I hadn't been in the hospital I'd be dead. Instead, I got a shot.

This is a good example of doctors creating problems and then getting credit for fixing them.

Did you know that having an epidural, an IV, and/or pitocin all increase your likelihood of having a hemorrhage in the first place?

In my first birth, I had an excessive amount of bleeding... not enough to be considered a hemorrhage, but there was concern. Do you know why that happened? Because the moran doctor was tugging, gently mind you but still tugging, on the cord to get the placenta out just a few minutes after the birth. No fracking patience. So they do this thing that evidence states that you're never ever supposed to do because it can cause bleeding, and then they cause bleeding, and then they force medication upon me to stop the bleeding... meanwhile, I had still not been able to hold or nurse my baby, which would have both helped the placenta detach quickly and safely, and would have helped stop bleeding. Not that there was any concern with her, but they were too busy making sure they could cause bleeding and then stop it and plus they wanted to wipe her off and dress her before they let me touch her.

My second birth, in my living room. Held my baby immediately, nursed her within two minutes, placenta came out when it felt like it, and then we all snuggled in bed. No drugs, no procedures. This is what happens when you don't fark with nature.

dwh1963		2010-03-14 12:01:20 PM

Random Reality Check: dwh1963: Because if they used the rates given, the study is fatally flawed, because nobody counts death rates the same.

When death rates are counted in X deaths per hundred thousand, it's kind of hard to screw up those numbers.

Have you had your coffee this morning?
If not, have you given any consideration towards doing so?
If you have, have you considered that you just made a complete fool out of yourself?

Just asking...

But what killed them? As Riffington pointed out earlier:
"Maternal death is not 'dying in childbirth'. The article just misunderstood. It's any death during pregnancy or up to 42 days after the pregnancy ends.

So: top causes of maternal death in industrialized countries: Trauma* (homicide and auto), preeclampsia, hemorrhage, pulmonary embolism."

Do those deaths count against the US as in childbirth?

dwh1963		2010-03-14 12:02:43 PM

FarkinNortherner: dwh1963: Because if they used the rates given, the study is fatally flawed, because nobody counts death rates the same.

Nobody counts death rates the same in the adult population? I think I'm going to need a citation for that.

Perhaps you were trying to rely on the talking point that some countries count infant mortality in a different manner and that this nullifies any comparison? Even if that were true, which it isn't, it hasn't got anything to do with TFA.

/not going to hold my breath for the citation
//wouldn't want to add to the numbers

Read my reply to Random Reality Check. Get back with me if you can answer the question.

Wolf Flywheel		2010-03-14 12:03:23 PM

So if poor 'African-Americans' and Native Americans are dying in large number during childbirth, who is filling up all of the reservations and projects with shorties?

stiletto_the_wise		2010-03-14 12:04:15 PM

simkatu: Let me guess. You don't mind that "they" steal people's money and hand it over to defense contractors to make cowardly killing machines to kill folks with brown skin from miles away?

As you can see, it's all about Christian morality and a "values-based" approach to governing and funding programs.

Wolf Flywheel		2010-03-14 12:06:58 PM

dstrick44		2010-03-14 12:07:02 PM

DoctorCal 2010-03-14 01:26:47 AM
log_jammin: And the WHO and Amnesty International aren't exactly high on my list of reputable sources of information.

YES!!!! Nailed it!!!!

Yes. You should trust Breitbart & Beck with your healthcare. The WHO is a bunch of libtards.
Besides, Daltrey can't sing his way out of a wet paper sack these days. Didn't anyone watch the Superbowl?

beaverfetus		2010-03-14 12:13:04 PM

we have lots of poor people in this country relative to other industrialized nations. poor people do not get prenatal care in this country.

poor people + shiatty pre-natal care= bad outcomes.

It has nothign to do with our obstetrics around the time of delivery, and nothing to do with our neonatal care (which is easily the best in the world):

There is only so much you can do when you have an immigrant coming in with no prenatal care, with a 3.5 pound preemie with a congenital infection that could have been prevented with vaccination.

next?

dstrick44		2010-03-14 12:15:23 PM

Fupac 2010-03-14 09:28:06 AM
Phil Herup: Cold1s: Gawds, that IS sad.

Don't worry.

It is not true.

Remember the socialists will lie to preserve the system. The W.H.O. will weigh the priority of FREE Care unfairly over the actual superb quality of care delivered to millions of people everyday.

People who trust the rankings put out by the World Health Organization are idiots.

Phil, I just read your profile. That is farking awesome! I have never seen so much disdain in one profile. Keep up the good work.

I have been a huge fan of Phil's work. He is what trolls aspire to. A real Farkian treasure.

paquerette		2010-03-14 12:15:26 PM

Wolf Flywheel: You two should get along divinely.

Heh.

And ftr, my midwife carries that very same shot. She also carries tinctures and such. She can decide based on the situation which or both or whatever. It's nice to have options. She has very, very seldom had to resort to the medication, though. I forget what the rate was... hundreds of babies, only used it maybe three or four times? Something in that neighborhood.

dstrick44		2010-03-14 12:17:57 PM

FarKnight 2010-03-14 09:38:01 AM
Here's an idea....if you're poor, don't have a frkking baby.

Problem Solved!
Why, oh why didn't someone think of this sooner?

paquerette		2010-03-14 12:19:47 PM

beaverfetus: we have lots of poor people in this country relative to other industrialized nations. poor people do not get prenatal care in this country.

poor people + shiatty pre-natal care= bad outcomes.

It has nothign to do with our obstetrics around the time of delivery, and nothing to do with our neonatal care (which is easily the best in the world):

There is only so much you can do when you have an immigrant coming in with no prenatal care, with a 3.5 pound preemie with a congenital infection that could have been prevented with vaccination.

next?

Cites? What percentage of births are immigrants (do you mean illegal, or just recent immigrants of any sort?)? What percentage have zero prenatal care? What percentage with unfavorable outcomes? What percentage of those have vaccine-preventable diseases as the cause? I like numbers.

The only VPD that I'm aware of that impacts pregnancy in that way is CRS, and it's nearly eradicated in the US. I don't think that is influencing stats in any meaningful way.

dstrick44		2010-03-14 12:23:48 PM

stiletto_the_wise 2010-03-14 10:09:10 AM
It's interesting to see everyone here jumping in to blame:

* The patients
* The doctors
* The World Health Organization
* Liberals
* Socialists
* Entire ethnic groups
* Trial lawyers

It's like you live in a world with comic-book-style villains plotting to destroy you. Put a few brain cells together.

This is why the 2nd Amendment is so important.
You need to be able to protect yourself from the trial lawyers & liberals who hate your way of life & want to take away the hard-earned money your grandfather left for you in that trust fund and give your healthcare to illegal immigrants.
Pack one of these babies & the WHO and the UN will think twice before shredding OUR Constitution.
www.novaksblog.com

beaverfetus		2010-03-14 12:30:41 PM

paquerette: Cites? What percentage of births are immigrants (do you mean illegal, or just recent immigrants of any sort?)? What percentage have zero prenatal care? What percentage with unfavorable outcomes? What percentage of those have vaccine-preventable diseases as the cause? I like numbers.

The only VPD that I'm aware of that impacts pregnancy in that way is CRS, and it's nearly eradicated in the US. I don't think that is influencing stats in any meaningful way.

don't have cites. way too lazy to look. Used immigrant legal or illegal as example because this is an underserved population that has high rates of congenital infection, low infant birth weight and bad outcomes.

your comment that CRS is the only disease that effects neonatal mortality is medically illiterate.

start with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TORCH_complex and attempt to fix that. Rubella and Varicella are two biggies that can be vaccinated for. Herpes and Syphilis can be treated with antivirals and antibiotics respectively.

CMV can be prevented by reducing high risk exposures.

Rik01		2010-03-14 12:32:35 PM

The field of Obstetrics has been the number one target for lawsuits so much that many of the physicians have closed their practices. We've actually had a shortage of them and those that remain often charge most of their fee in advance because they also get hit hard by folks not paying their bills after the child is born.

Almost anything can go wrong with a baby before birth for almost any reason and be out of control of the physician and parent. This opened the gates for massive lawsuits against not only the doctors, but hospitals and drug companies.

The massive influx of 'baby momma's', meaning unwed mothers, with a planned pregnancy as some sort of social prestige, financed mainly by social programs, has strained the system tremendously. Especially since Social Services and Children and Families groups have become flooded with kids neglected by such parents.

In some areas, a guy having 6 or 7 kids by 6 or 7 different women and contributing nothing or very little to the financial support and upbringing, is considered a mark of Manliness.

The cost of medical care, due to several specific reasons, has soared to nearly unimaginable levels, making prenatal care difficult to obtain properly. The rising numbers of women showing up at emergency rooms ready to deliver with no OBGYN physician history indicate the problems faced by the poor.

Even with the readily available and cheap birth control available, you can't teach kids about real sex because either assorted religious groups will biatch or parents will sue the krap out of the school system, meaning many young adults don't have a full grasp of the process by the time they graduate.

Mr. Right also has a very valid point in his posting. Several valid points, actually.

What is NOT mentioned by WHO is that, considering the rapid growth of the US population and the advancement of medical techniques, that the incidents of birth related deaths have dropped tremendously within the last 50 years, with an even greater chance of a deformed or birth defective child surviving beyond 4 years.

There has, within the last 20 years, been great advances of corrective surgeries being done to a child while in the womb and a very dramatic rise in the survival of premature children.

The major stumbling blocks have been social stupidity and explosive costs. The latter is due to just a couple of specific reasons, started in the 80s, mainly based on greed, which can be controlled but powerful political lobbies consistently block efforts to change this mess.

WHO also fails to mention that the US has become the most litigious nation on the face of the Earth. This alone has affected society so much that there have been sweeping (and mostly stupid) changes forced on it.

beaverfetus		2010-03-14 12:34:45 PM

beaverfetus: nearly eradicated in the US

another reason I used immigrant as my example. When a substantial portion of your patient population regularly travels back and forth to a developing nation, the endemic rates of disease in the US becomes a bit of a moot point.

I didn't even mention the high five by the way. You want to talk about vertical disease prevention look no further than HIV. But of course that requires, prenatal screening, prenatal treatment, and neonatal follow up treatment.

jbezorg		2010-03-14 12:38:10 PM

log_jammin: And the WHO and Amnesty International aren't exactly high on my list of reputable sources of information.

YES!!!! Nailed it!!!!

How about a U.S. Source?

Infant Mortality Rate and Life Expectancy, by Sex: United States
Year: 2010
IMR Both Sexes: 6.14
IMR Male: 6.81
IMR Female: 5.44
Life expectancy both sexes: 78.24
Life expectancy male: 75.78
Life expectancy female: 80.81

Infant Mortality Rate and Life Expectancy, by Sex: United Kingdom
Year: 2010
IMR Both Sexes: 4.78
IMR Male: 5.31
IMR Female: 4.22
Life expectancy both sexes: 79.16
Life expectancy male: 76.66
Life expectancy female: 81.80

Infant Mortality Rate and Life Expectancy, by Sex: Greece
Year: 2010
IMR Both Sexes: 5.08
IMR Male: 5.58
IMR Female: 4.54
Life expectancy both sexes: 79.80
Life expectancy male: 77.24
Life expectancy female: 82.52

Infant Mortality Rate - The number of deaths of infants under 1 year of age from a cohort of 1,000 live births. Denoted 1q0 or IMR, it is the probability of dying between birth and exact age 1.

Life expectancy at birth. - The average number of years a group of people born in the same year can be expected to live if mortality at each age remains constant in the future.

First Source: U.S. Census Bureau, International Data Base.
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/informationGateway.php

Secondary Sources

United States - Latest Data Used in the Estimates and Projections
Reference years: 2007
Data source: vital registration
Data collection years: 2007
Notes: Preliminary data on total registered deaths.
Citation: National Center for Health Statistics. 2008.

United Kingdom - Latest Data Used in the Estimates and Projections
Reference years: 2000
Data source: vital registration
Data collection years: 2000
Notes: Registered deaths by age and sex.
Citation: Eurostat. 2001. Statistics in Focus 15/2001. Luxembourg.

Greece - Latest Data Used in the Estimates and Projections
Reference years: 1999
Data source: vital registration
Data collection years: 1999
Notes: Registered deaths by age and sex.
Citation: National Statistical Service of Greece. 2002. Statistical Yearbook of Greece 2001. Athens.

Petit_Merdeux		2010-03-14 12:39:53 PM

The Greeks don't want no freaks, man.

swahnhennessy		2010-03-14 12:40:21 PM

The hoops some of you jump through to convince yourselves of what you wish to believe... And for what? So you can continue holding misconceptions that are comforting?

Delay		2010-03-14 12:43:05 PM

FarkinNortherner: Nobody counts death rates the same in the adult population? I think I'm going to need a citation for that.

I could understand how a person might be think it is the case that the UK and the US would count their maternal death rates differently. There are ongoing debates (in the respective medical communities) whether 12 weeks rather than 6 weeks after child birth should be the standard. The studies follow the number of deaths per 100,000 in mothers who have given birth and similar populations without births.

The reason for the debate is that deaths related to child birth is one of the key measures by which the quality of national health care can be quantified. The standard which the WHO uses is 6 weeks. If it were 12 weeks it is likely the US would score even worse.

atomic-age		2010-03-14 12:46:59 PM

WhyteRaven74: Mr. Right: Is the reporting in every other country absolutely accurate?

The reporting is inline with what's already known. Also if check the methodology, it checks out. Oh and c-sections aren't all the same, quite a few are emergency c-sections, some percentage of which are required owing to a lack of proper pre-natal care.

I worked in a hospital for a few years. While it was rare, we did occasionally have women or girls who waddled into the ER in labor, having had zero prenatal care. While it was legal to force them to deliver in the ER, I don't believe any of the OB/GYNs ever did so.

And before anyone asks, sometimes they were white and married, just nuts.

beaverfetus		2010-03-14 12:49:18 PM

jbezorg: How about a U.S. Source?

ok now if you really want to engage some frontal cortex consider this: If instead of considering "infant mortality" you consider neonatal outcome based on birth weight (any birth weight) the US has among the lowest in the world. Now heres the squeeze: the US has such a higher rate of low birth weight neonates, and because low birth weight neonates have such a higher rate of mortality world over, our overall infant mortality is higher. Follow all that? What I just did there is attempt to localize the problem:

If we had bad obstetrics or bad neonatal care, our mortality for a given birth weight would be worse. Our hospitals are doing their job, it's everything leading up to it that stinks.

What are the risk factors for low birth weight that we are doing horribly on? Low SES, young maternal age, smoking, substance abuse, poor pre-natal care. Aka primary care/ demographic issues. Shocking I know, this all comes down to primary care.

beaverfetus		2010-03-14 12:55:22 PM

here is one source, the vast majority of the sources I can dig up require subscriptions. the abstract here says it all

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119961945/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Egalitarian		2010-03-14 12:56:18 PM

I just looked some of this up in World Bank's World Development Indicators database. 2005 was the only recent year with all my selected countries reporting.

Country Name Series Name YR2005
Greece Health expenditure, total (% of GDP) 9.4
Greece Lifetime risk of maternal death (1 in: rate varies by country) 25900
Greece Maternal mortality ratio (modeled estimate, per 100,000 live births) 3

United Kingdom Health expenditure, total (% of GDP) 8
United Kingdom Lifetime risk of maternal death (1 in: rate varies by country) 8200
United Kingdom Maternal mortality ratio (modeled estimate, per 100,000 live births) 8

United States Health expenditure, total (% of GDP) 15.2
United States Lifetime risk of maternal death (1 in: rate varies by country) 4800
United States Maternal mortality ratio (modeled estimate, per 100,000 live births) 11

Yemen, Rep. Health expenditure, total (% of GDP) 5.2
Yemen, Rep. Lifetime risk of maternal death (1 in: rate varies by country) 39
Yemen, Rep. Maternal mortality ratio (modeled estimate, per 100,000 live births) 430

"Life time risk of maternal death is the probability that a 15-year-old female will die eventually from a maternal cause assuming that current levels of fertility and mortality (including maternal mortality) do not change in the future, taking into account competing causes of death. Source: "Maternal Mortality in 2005: Estimates Developed by WHO, UNICEF, UNFPA and the World Bank" (2007)."

"Maternal mortality ratio is the number of women who die during pregnancy and childbirth, per 100,000 live births. The data are estimated with a regression model using information on fertility, birth attendants, and HIV prevalence. Source: "Maternal Mortality in 2005: Estimates Developed by WHO, UNICEF, UNFPA and the World Bank" (2007)."

So is the World Bank, UNICEF and UNFPA similarly prejudiced against the US or is it blatantly obvious that we have an enormously expensive healthcare system and yet a strangely high maternal mortality rate?

But we beat Yemen pretty good. USA! USA!

paquerette		2010-03-14 12:59:16 PM

beaverfetus: your comment that CRS is the only disease that effects neonatal mortality is medically illiterate.

I said that I was aware of... I was familiar with varicella being a cause of miscarriage. Indeed I see now, that of the 1 in 2000 pregnant women who will catch varicella during pregnancy, less than 1% who do so before 20 weeks will have a baby affected with CVS. Not a big number, still.

Herpes and Syphilis can be treated with antivirals and antibiotics respectively.

Yes. Not vaccine-preventable. But correctable with prenatal care.

CMV can be prevented by reducing high risk exposures.

I don't think prenatal care does anything for that, though. Do you need to sit in an exam room for an hour and have a doctor come in for thirty seconds to remind you to wash your hands? Is that really the best use of the medical care system?

In any case, TFA is about maternal mortality, not neonatal. Though that is also a problem in the US. None of these diseases or figures explains maternal mortality.

paquerette		2010-03-14 01:01:58 PM

The low birthweight is strongly connected to the epidemic of early inductions and scheduled c-sections. 36 or 37 weeks should not be considered "good enough, let's get that baby out of there!" The March of Dimes actually issued a statement about this last year. This is not just the natural birth community decrying this trend.

beaverfetus		2010-03-14 01:02:35 PM

paquerette: None of these diseases or figures explains maternal mortality.

I obviously didnt RTFA but maternal mortality is even more preventable with prenatal care. Knowing that mom has a acreta/ precreta or placenta previa and is going to be a farking train wreck when she hits labor and delivery ahead of time prevents much woe.

beaverfetus		2010-03-14 01:03:41 PM

paquerette: The low birthweight is strongly connected to the epidemic of early inductions and scheduled c-sections. 36 or 37 weeks should not be considered "good enough, let's get that baby out of there!" The March of Dimes actually issued a statement about this last year. This is not just the natural birth community decrying this trend.

no OBs I know would consider elective delivery before 38. That is asking for a law suit. No way no how.

PrinceofFark		2010-03-14 01:05:10 PM

Maybe if the US would grow some balls and actually police it's borders, you'd see these numbers improve as the baby factories crossing the border (with ease), would have to stay home and birth Jose in some dirty Tijuana washroom instead.

Also, sounds like a Yemen has it's own version of Russian Roulette, 1:38 chance of paying the ultimate price to bring new life into this world. Yikes!

beaverfetus		2010-03-14 01:05:35 PM

paquerette: I don't think prenatal care does anything for that, though. Do you need to sit in an exam room for an hour and have a doctor come in for thirty seconds to remind you to wash your hands? Is that really the best use of the medical care system?

I'm much more talking about isolating parents from people with active cmv infections, and yes, reinforcing hand washing to a mom is a very good use of the medical care system.

Bohemian		2010-03-14 01:05:45 PM

So we have major pressure in this country to restrict or deter people from using or obtaining birth control to appease mouth breathing religious zealots. We also have a major stigma and huge hurdles for anyone to obtain an abortion. Both of these issues mostly impact the poor groups everyone is biatching about.

Maybe it is about time we tell the Catholic church and the fundie brigade to piss up a rope and provide the tools for the poor to stop reproducing at alarming rates. The childbirth mortality rate will solve itself.

My biggest gripe about democracy in this country is how much time we waste listening to minority opinions that have no merit over and over again.

Over_Zealously_Apathetic		2010-03-14 01:06:25 PM

PRO LIFE!!!!

/except when it raises my taxes...then those leeches should die
//WE'RE NUMBER ONE!

Delay		2010-03-14 01:08:54 PM

Egalitarian: United States Health expenditure, total (% of GDP) 15.2

Out of date. While the world has remained steady at about 8.5% the increase in health care cost in the US has been staggering.

United States health care spending as percent GDP
2000 13.2%
2006 15.3%
2010 17.7%

Put another way the US has 5% of the world's population yet 40% of the world's health care spending is in the US.

booklover555		2010-03-14 01:13:01 PM

Egalitarian: Relevant facts and statistics, not paranoid ramblings like many of the posters on this thread.

So is are (sry) the World Bank, UNICEF and UNFPA similarly prejudiced against the US or is it blatantly obvious that we have an enormously expensive healthcare system and yet a strangely high maternal mortality rate?

So we pay twice as much for something twice as crappy?

15% of our GDP. That's a lot of schoolbooks and teachers/tanks and guns/tax refunds.

/But "socialized" health care is the debil!

Over_Zealously_Apathetic		2010-03-14 01:13:06 PM

Delay: Egalitarian: United States Health expenditure, total (% of GDP) 15.2

Out of date. While the world has remained steady at about 8.5% the increase in health care cost in the US has been staggering.

United States health care spending as percent GDP
2000 13.2%
2006 15.3%
2010 17.7%

Put another way the US has 5% of the world's population yet 40% of the world's health care spending is in the US.

The next bubble?

Over_Zealously_Apathetic		2010-03-14 01:15:42 PM

Over_Zealously_Apathetic: PRO LIFE!!!!

/except when it raises my taxes...then those leeches should die
//WE'RE NUMBER ONE!

I realize this is a troll, but it really starts to look this way when I watch some of you rationalize your positions.

mongbiohazard		2010-03-14 01:16:16 PM

My BS meter is lighting up over this one...

Erik_Emune		2010-03-14 01:16:46 PM

lobootomy: Amnesty International would make native African birth survival rates higher than the US just to get money.

Nothing to see here. If they don't meet their agenda, they cannot survive.

Amnesty International? Did you just reach into your mind's grab-bag of "People I don't like" to pull out a random name?

Delay		2010-03-14 01:16:46 PM

Over_Zealously_Apathetic: The next bubble?

It would seem so.

Erik_Emune		2010-03-14 01:19:35 PM

Erik_Emune: lobootomy: Amnesty International would make native African birth survival rates higher than the US just to get money.

Nothing to see here. If they don't meet their agenda, they cannot survive.

Amnesty International? Did you just reach into your mind's grab-bag of "People I don't like" to pull out a random name?Apparently it's my mind that completely misfired. Ignore previous statement. Send coffee.

paquerette		2010-03-14 01:23:46 PM

beaverfetus: paquerette: I don't think prenatal care does anything for that, though. Do you need to sit in an exam room for an hour and have a doctor come in for thirty seconds to remind you to wash your hands? Is that really the best use of the medical care system?

I'm much more talking about isolating parents from people with active cmv infections, and yes, reinforcing hand washing to a mom is a very good use of the medical care system.

Handwashing is awesome. Do we need to pay someone with a medical degree to tell people to wash their farking hands?

NannyStatePark		2010-03-14 01:46:43 PM

Wolf Flywheel: paquerette: My second birth, in my living room. Held my baby immediately, nursed her within two minutes, placenta came out when it felt like it, and then we all snuggled in bed. No drugs, no procedures. This is what happens when you don't fark with nature.

NannyStatePark: I think that alternative birth practices being trendy are to blame for this. I had regular prenatal care and hemorrhaged during delivery. If I hadn't been in the hospital I'd be dead. Instead, I got a shot.

You two should get along divinely.

Why would I fight with her? I'm a Libertarian. Come to think of it, my placenta was "manually delivered." Maybe she has a helluva point, because I was wired for sound and on a whole heap of drugs.

Egalitarian		2010-03-14 01:51:37 PM

oops so much for a clean screen grab.

thamike		2010-03-14 01:52:10 PM

NannyStatePark: Why would I fight with her? I'm a Libertarian. Come to think of it, my placenta was "manually delivered." Maybe she has a helluva point, because I was wired for sound and on a whole heap of drugs.

Maybe you can both get together and protest a stroller.

Funk Brothers		2010-03-14 01:57:46 PM

I don't think it's because of access to healthcare, but instead it's apathy. Even the poorest people in this country has free healthcare.

StreetlightInTheGhetto		2010-03-14 02:24:18 PM

Funk Brothers: I don't think it's because of access to healthcare, but instead it's apathy. Even the poorest people in this country has free healthcare.

The poorest might, but start making the tiniest bit of money and you get cut off. Good luck affording private insurance coverage. Hell, I have insurance and the rates and copays have gone up so freaking fast that if I get truly sick I am screwed. And I'm young and don't have kids.

15% of Americans have no health insurance. Access to health care *may* be a factor, but honestly, everyone speculating in this thread is just talking out of their ass. I'd have to look at the study very closely before I'd feel comfortable making any assumptions about it, and I don't have the time to bother.

basemetal		2010-03-14 02:34:47 PM

Heh, this went green. Good job subbs.

dwh1963		2010-03-14 02:40:30 PM

PrinceofFark: Maybe if the US would grow some balls and actually police it's borders, you'd see these numbers improve as the baby factories crossing the border (with ease), would have to stay home and birth Jose in some dirty Tijuana washroom instead.

Also, sounds like a Yemen has it's own version of Russian Roulette, 1:38 chance of paying the ultimate price to bring new life into this world. Yikes!

Women are property over there. If one croaks, you get another.

dwh1963		2010-03-14 02:41:43 PM

Bohemian: My biggest gripe about democracy in this country is how much time we waste listening to minority opinions that I disagree with.

FTFY.

You don't get to decide.

transplendent		2010-03-14 02:43:13 PM

bingethinker: Ah, the American healthcare system. If you're rich, it's the best in the world. No money? ~~You might as well be~~ You're better off in a third-world country.

FTFY

paquerette		2010-03-14 02:44:24 PM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Funk Brothers: I don't think it's because of access to healthcare, but instead it's apathy. Even the poorest people in this country has free healthcare.

The poorest might, but start making the tiniest bit of money and you get cut off.

Not if you're pregnant. The income threshholds are much higher for medicaid when you're pregnant.

MemeSlave		2010-03-14 03:11:12 PM

fragMasterFlash: Infinite Monkeys In Front Of A Computer: To be fair, Greek women have huge vaginas. They actually don't even give birth. The baby just kind of...falls out at 9 months.

Buttsecks?

That woman could make a mint doing porn.

Man Going His Own Way		2010-03-14 03:23:04 PM

These slags can't do anything without government help.

RY28		2010-03-14 03:31:50 PM

Cake Hunter: It's the protective layer of body hair.

Wasnt expecting that so early on in the thresd . Made me laugh while at work . Everyone at work thinks Im a bit nutty and your not helping !

/Done in 2 BWT.

Slartibartfaster		2010-03-14 04:52:53 PM

Con_Authority: They're slowly restricting

slowly ?

[citation needed]

adp1215		2010-03-14 06:44:37 PM

FarKnight
Here's an idea....if you're poor, don't have a frkking baby

or learn to swallow..fark, if you are that poor you should enjoy a hot meal for a change.

rewind2846		2010-03-14 08:01:32 PM

SystemFault:
Rigorous, mandatory birth control and sterilization initiatives will solve the problem. Everything else has failed.

You know who else wanted to use forced sterilization and mandatory birth control as part of their final solution?

limboslam		2010-03-14 08:06:07 PM

Urinal Gum		2010-03-14 09:05:43 PM

This is what they mean when they say a society will be judged by how they treat their poorest members.

dwh1963		2010-03-14 09:14:57 PM

Urinal Gum: This is what they mean when they say a society will be judged by how they treat their poorest members.

Do you support abortion on demand?

thamike		2010-03-14 09:53:30 PM

dwh1963: Do you support abortion on demand?

You are a f*cking idiot.

Donald_McRonald		2010-03-14 10:56:54 PM

dwh1963: Do you support abortion on demand?

Comcast has gone too far with this.

dwh1963		2010-03-14 11:29:17 PM

thamike: dwh1963: Do you support abortion on demand?

You are a f*cking idiot.

I'm sure it comforts you to...well, "think" isn't really the right word...feel that way, but no. Just gauging the sincerity of the notion "This is what they mean when they say a society will be judged by how they treat their poorest members."

Empty platitude. Just as I thought. Maybe you guys ought to say instead: "This is what they mean when they say a society will be judged by how they treat Democrat special interest groups."

Please...think of the registered Democrats!

ambercat		2010-03-15 02:15:56 AM

log_jammin: ambercat: It's not a gene, it's a cultural issue. Don't go to the doctor, don't do any prenatal care (even though in California there are FREE clinics that are set up specifically to cater to spanish speaking illegal immigrants) and see what happens.

That completely contradicts the "illegals are whats making health care 'spensive!" talking point I always hear.

It's probably too late for you to see this, but the two are not mutually exclusive. You can't for the emergency room for prenatal care. But you CAN go there for a bunch of other stuff, which is what drives up the cost as everything ER costs waaaay more than a regular dr. Also- birth isn't really seen as a medical condition so much as something that women just DO.

justaguy76		2010-03-15 07:53:04 AM

Now I could be wrong but Greece. They have that universal healthcare that the American Failmedia are saying is the great evil in the world right?

thamike		2010-03-15 09:26:12 AM

justaguy76: Now I could be wrong but Greece. They have that universal healthcare that the American Failmedia are saying is the great evil in the world right?

Wrong. Greece's health care system is a mess.

thamike		2010-03-15 09:28:05 AM

dwh1963: I'm sure it comforts you to...well, "think" isn't really the right word...feel that way, but no. Just gauging the sincerity of the notion "This is what they mean when they say a society will be judged by how they treat their poorest members."

Empty platitude. Just as I thought. Maybe you guys ought to say instead: "This is what they mean when they say a society will be judged by how they treat Democrat special interest groups."

Please...think of the registered Democrats!

I'm sure you feel you're responding to something I said, but I called you a f*cking idiot because you can say "do you support abortion on demand" with a straight face.

William Shakesbeer		2010-03-15 09:38:06 AM

It's because that got-dam Obammy cut funding for machines that go "bing"...

SocialFarker		2010-03-15 11:06:15 AM

I wonder if the high rates of C-sections have anything to do with this in addition to the always present "who gives a fark about poor women, or women in general" meme.

mad_prophet_tx		2010-03-15 11:22:23 AM

log_jammin: SilentStrider: well, you've convinced me. I'm going to vote republican.

That's why I do. Because both sides are the exact same.

Is our mothers birthing?

mad_prophet_tx		2010-03-15 11:35:36 AM

Cagey B: That's an unfair comparison. People in Greece are not "born", as such, but spring fully-formed from their father's heads.

The WHO says "She's just a girl - she's a bomb."

dwh1963		2010-03-15 12:16:21 PM

thamike: dwh1963: I'm sure it comforts you to...well, "think" isn't really the right word...feel that way, but no. Just gauging the sincerity of the notion "This is what they mean when they say a society will be judged by how they treat their poorest members."

Empty platitude. Just as I thought. Maybe you guys ought to say instead: "This is what they mean when they say a society will be judged by how they treat Democrat special interest groups."

Please...think of the registered Democrats!

I'm sure you feel you're responding to something I said, but I called you a f*cking idiot because you can say "do you support abortion on demand" with a straight face.

What else would you call it? Why sugar-coat it? What are you trying to hide, and who do you think you're fooling by calling it anything else?

thamike		2010-03-15 12:29:59 PM

dwh1963: What else would you call it?

Abortion. What it is. I'm not even sure what you're trying to imply with "abortion on demand." Who do you think you're fooling with that?

wambu		2010-03-15 02:51:56 PM

In Other News:
"Greek Culture" does not result in pregnancy. Religious Right teens rejoice.

drp		2010-03-15 06:53:23 PM

pippi longstocking: The policy is to give them unnecessary cesareans so they can charge you a fortune.

Your ignorance is sad but not unexpected.

Cesarean rates are high in the United States ONLY because the fear of lawsuits leads to a "when in doubt, cut her and deliver the baby" ...

I live this every day as an anesthesiologist. The OBs hate doing c-sections even more than I hate doing them, which is a lot. They're a lot more work. There are no massive profits or richest to driving us to do c-sections.

But if a baby turns out bad, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, or even if it's anyone's fault: mom will sue, and the insurance carrier will settle or the obstetrician will lose in court.

Because ignorant retards like pippi longstocking populate juries and they're too stupid to see past the poor, brain damaged kid and they figure somebody has to be responsible. 'Cause, you know, it's just not fair.

profplump		2010-03-15 07:41:08 PM

paquerette: My second birth, in my living room. Held my baby immediately, nursed her within two minutes, placenta came out when it felt like it, and then we all snuggled in bed. No drugs, no procedures. This is what happens when you don't fark with nature.

You forgot to mention your third birth, where without drugs or tugging you still had a hemorrhage, and die promptly after delivering the baby. Or maybe slightly before delivering the baby, killing you both.

It's unfortunate that your doctor did something dumb during your first delivery. But that's hardly evidence that the mere presence of doctors is a net detriment to the survivability of childbirth, and even poorer evidence that, in the case of an actual emergency, doctors would not be useful. I know you missed it, but that was the whole point of the original post -- that modern medical care can turn life-threatening events into minor, easily treatable complications.

But I guess there aren't a lot of dead mothers posting their anti-modern-medicine anecdotes online for you to collect comparative statistics.

dwh1963		2010-03-15 09:33:29 PM

thamike: dwh1963: What else would you call it?

Abortion. What it is. I'm not even sure what you're trying to imply with "abortion on demand." Who do you think you're fooling with that?

It's simple, really. Abortion used as birth control, for convenience, instead of protecting the mother's life. You know -- they way it's used in the vast majority of cases.

Note: "Protecting the mother's life" does not mean "so she can keep going to beauty school".

Do you support ending human life for convenience?

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