I still remember where I was, and what I was doing when he debuted in the majors.

/i wasn't alive

"The left-hander was 12-10 with an 4.94 ERA in 2009. He is owed $8 million this season."

He'll turn 48 sometime this season and the fact that he can go out and pitch in the bigs is amazing. As far as being too old to do it, well don't tell that to him or Nolan Ryan. Moyer has always been a class act on and off the field and is a good role model for some of the younger pitchers on the staff. This will likely be his last year and I'll be attending more than a few games at Citizen's Bank Park. Hope I get to see him do his voodoo again.

The second sentence in the quote adequately explains why he will likely start the season as the Phillies fifth starter. His main competition is Kyle Kendrick, a relative pup to Moyer.

Whenever I think of Moyer's fastball, it reminds me of this: (new window)


/hope Kendrick is our #5

Moyer would probably be at 300 wins if he hadn't been thoroughly wasted at various points of his career. Wasted as in misused, not as in drunk.

tagjim: /hope Kendrick is our #5

God you Philly fans are worthless.

Moyer still remembers where he was and what he was doing when they invented the wheel.

Kill the mentally ill: tagjim: /hope Kendrick is our #5

God you Philly fans are worthless.

Why? Kendrick (by all accounts) has been stuck to Halladay and is learning better habits. It wasn't so long ago that he was pitching 3.87 and went 10-3. You don't lose talent, but everyone gets a sophmore slump. Moyer can't eat innings like he used to, which is what he's talking about in this article anyway.

Station: Why? Kendrick (by all accounts) has been stuck to Halladay and is learning better habits.

Christ, I hope so.

"Hmm, I'm a young, talented pitcher who fell off last season, and perhaps the best all around pitcher in baseball is now a teammate...should I hang around him and try to pick up tips? Nah, f*ck it, I'll take groundballs with Ross Gload."

moyer been good at it long enough, and and nice about it long enough, that i'd give him enough respect to let him spout off more than this. starting pitching is a lot different now than when he started pitching.

1lastcall: Moyer still remembers where he was and what he was doing when they invented the wheel the chorus and the art critic.

bighasbeen: The secret to the veteran's longevity?

Lefties can get away with throwing 81 MPH.

So can righties(Maddux, Wakefield, etc), it's just that the league wants a specific type of pitcher and doesn't entertain other options. As a lefty, you can get a look by the minors/indie ball throwing 80+ consistently with 1 other pitch. As a righty, you don't get a look unless you're 92+. It has nothing to do with their pitching ability and everything to do with fitting the mold they want for that specific player.

Ultimately, pitching isn't about speed, it's about deception. A flat 100mph fastball is going to fly farther than a flat 85mph fastball when it gets smashed. Speed only matters with the ability to change it without tipping your pitch. Moyer has lasted so long because he's deceptive, not because he's a lefty, but he may have gotten that opportunity despite being a softtosser because he's a lefty. It's a stupid way to do business and makes it easier for hitters since they're facing less variety.

bluorangefyre: Hell, back about a hundred years ago pitchers were still throwing over 400 innings a year. Now they barely get past 250. I'd like to see somebody get ballsy and try a three-man rotation throughout the year and let them pitch complete games all year long. If they could do it before modern sports conditioning, why can't they do it now?

$$$ and babying pitchers.

I still remember where I was, and what I was doing when I first heard that he was leaving the Mariners Pilots.

/ftfy

Jaime Moyer still remembers where he was, and what he was doing when he first heard that the United States was leaving the British Empire.

I love Jamie Moyer.

/Go M's

Moyer also owns because he's one of the last guys left who actually wears proper stirrups

bighasbeen: bhcompy: bighasbeen: The secret to the veteran's longevity?

Lefties can get away with throwing 81 MPH.

So can righties(Maddux, Wakefield, etc), it's just that the league wants a specific type of pitcher and doesn't entertain other options. As a lefty, you can get a look by the minors/indie ball throwing 80+ consistently with 1 other pitch. As a righty, you don't get a look unless you're 92+. It has nothing to do with their pitching ability and everything to do with fitting the mold they want for that specific player.

Ultimately, pitching isn't about speed, it's about deception. A flat 100mph fastball is going to fly farther than a flat 85mph fastball when it gets smashed. Speed only matters with the ability to change it without tipping your pitch. Moyer has lasted so long because he's deceptive, not because he's a lefty, but he may have gotten that opportunity despite being a softtosser because he's a lefty. It's a stupid way to do business and makes it easier for hitters since they're facing less variety.

All very true. My pitching coaches always said that these three things were important (in this order):

1. Location
2. Movement
3. Velocity

Maddux is a great example of that as you mentioned. Wakefield I'm a little hesitant to consider as an example since he is such a rarity as a knuckleballer. I didn't mean to imply that all of his success is attributable to being a lefty, but I don't think you would have seen him in the league the last few years if he were right handed. It's not hard to find a righty who can give you a 4.94 ERA and give him the spot for economic or maturation reasons.

You look at Maddux's last year and their stats were pretty similar (Maddux had a lower ERA by about .65 or so). However the difference between left and right handed hitters' BA was only .04 while the difference for Moyer was almost .50 (RH .290, LH .243) The relative infrequency which batters see LHP means that you can get away with throwing a Jamie Moyer out there and the simple fact that he is left handed will make him harder to hit for both left handed batters and switch hitters who take 70%+ of their ABs from the left side.

Of course you're talking about them while they're in their 40s. They've always been softtossers. And you can replace Wakefield with Paul Byrd if you'd like. Byrd has been fairly successful for a righty with an 85mph fastball, and he gets by on deception, location, and guts.

End result is that righties don't get a fair shake in the current environment if they don't fit the physical and statistical mold teams want while lefties get a lot more benefit of the doubt. Too much reliance on numbers, profiles, and total risk minimization rather than variability and gamesmanship. Maddux went 19 straight years with 199 innings or more, and half of those were over 235. That will never be accomplished again because teams won't allow it, despite the physical ability being present in the league, and to boot Maddux didn't fit the desired physical profile either being too small. Teams are unwilling to take risk anymore, unless it's the risk of the 16 year old Dominican player actually being 22.

bhcompy: That will never be accomplished again because teams won't allow it, despite the physical ability being present in the league, and to boot Maddux didn't fit the desired physical profile either being too small.

I agree with your point but not the reasoning - I argue that it'll never be accomplished today because of the physicality of the sport. The human body isn't meant to throw balls at 100 MPH or have multiple Tommy Johns surgeries, and that catches up to them quicker than the duration of pitching used to, probably thanks to the PHD's most of the hitters use now allowing them quicker bat speed. This allows pitchers like Maddux and Moyer to thrive, as they are old-school in the sense they didn't always rely on velocity dominance, but I wonder, especially with todays pitchers, how much throwing a 90 MPH curveball diminishes their longevity.

But it does continue to astound me, for the point you just made, about Maddux not fitting the physical profile, as if pitchers have a physical profile. The most baffling example is in the NFL, where scouts (although getting smarter) continue to evaluate on pure physicality instead of past performance and future potential. Anyone who watches the combine as gospel needs to hog-tied and carried away. If I were to watch a pitcher in college who never cracked 90 but had 8k's a game and a respectable ERA, I'd give serious consideration while the rest of the crew was scouring for the next Randy Johnson.

Remember, hitters are now being produced as a result of sports conditioning as well. You can't have a 3 man rotation because hitters would knock you all over the place.

VvonderJesus: I still remember where I was, and what I was doing when he debuted in the majors.

/i wasn't alive

I was in Jr. High and remember it well. He almost no-hit the Phillies the next season or so, if memory serves.

/misses Harry Caray

FTFA: If you really listen, your body can send you some really good messages and it can send you some bad messages.

My body sends those messages too, which when translated might say this: "That second bowl of chili was delicious! Now, everyone clear the room..."

bhcompy
Ultimately, pitching isn't about speed, it's about deception. A flat 100mph fastball is going to fly farther than a flat 85mph fastball when it gets smashed.

Listen to this man ladies and gentlemen. He's from LA.
He knows what he's talking about:



\Sorry.
\\Couldn't resist.

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo -- "Remember, hitters are now being produced as a result of sports conditioning as well. You can't have a 3 man rotation because hitters would knock you all over the place." A "3 man rotation?" Oriole and National fans would be ever so grateful to have a one man rotation.

Kill the mentally ill: tagjim: /hope Kendrick is our #5

God you Philly fans are worthless.

Yeah, because it's completely irrational to prefer Kendrick to 48 year old Moyer coming off a terrible season.

He probably will be the 5th starter though. He can't go to the bullpen and they're not going to cut him. And I hope he bounces back, but I have a feeling that he's going to lose his spot again mid season.

/Neither should be the 5th starter
//Should have kept Lee

bluorangefyre: Hell, back about a hundred years ago pitchers were still throwing over 400 innings a year. Now they barely get past 250. I'd like to see somebody get ballsy and try a three-man rotation throughout the year and let them pitch complete games all year long. If they could do it before modern sports conditioning, why can't they do it now?

250? Last year nobody threw more than 240 innings. Bunch of wimps.

You damn kids today:


Nolan Ryan in 1973 was 21-16 for a poor Angels team, 2.87 ERA, pitched 326 innings, struck out a record 383 batters (that'll never be broken) and pitched two no-hitters and 2 one-hitters and he still lost the Cy Young Award to boring Jim Palmer.

/Bitter

Even if he sucks this year, Moyer will have played in the majors in the 80's, 90's, 00's, and 10's, which is a pretty cool feat.

Link (new window)

Henry Holland: Nolan Ryan in 1973 was 21-16 for a poor Angels team, 2.87 ERA, pitched 326 innings, struck out a record 383 batters (that'll never be broken) and pitched two no-hitters and 2 one-hitters and he still lost the Cy Young Award to boring Jim Palmer.

Daaaamn.

Obligatory. (new window)