You don't have to believe in God to be a follower of Buddha's teachings.

here we go again. atheism is not agnosticism

Buddhism has always been a crutch for westerners who were too weak to give up religion for good.

I hate to break this to you, but there are a fair number of folks who are agnostic or atheist who follow the Middle Road.

The only real belief that you need to walk the Eightfold Path is a belief that you can take responsibility for your actions. That you can extend compassion, if you choose to. That your actions, and the consequences of those actions, are yours to accept and that you can understand why you take actions.

Even the gods in Buddhist lore, are examples of those trapped in their roles and actions. While there is veneration of these powerful entities for their roles as forces of nature, they are still forever trapped in them. They are respected, but also are a caution. In many ways, the gods of Buddhist lore are to be pitied, because they are their roles, and unable to break their chains.

7of7: Buddhism has always been a crutch for westerners who were too weak to give up religion for good.

Really? So, the Buddha, who predates Christ, has always been a tool of Westerners?

Buddhism is an atheist way of life. Of course there are the nuts who believe that he was some kind of smiling obese god, but there in the minority.

It's no more a religion than Utilitarianism. It's just a moral code.

Tiger Woods used to be atheist?

coco ebert: You don't have to believe in God to be a follower of Buddha's teachings.

Done in one.

While I'm not a Buddhist, I lean on its philosophy more than any other religion, because I find it has beneficial effects for my personal psyche. Is this some kind of problem?

The Icelander: coco ebert: You don't have to believe in God to be a follower of BuddhaChrist's teachings.

This can also be true. Jesus did say a lot of pretty good stuff. Heck, there are even some things in the Old Testament that are decent.

The problem is, the reason Jesus tells you to do stuff is not really connected to your personal life. It's about obeying God. Buddhist ideas can actually be argued and persuasive on a personal level. You don't need to assent to any higher being's will.

hubiestubert: The only real belief that you need to walk the Eightfold Path is a belief that you can take responsibility for your actions.

Do you have to believe that Buddha was born from a hole in his mother's side?

Uakronkid: Buddhism is an atheist way of life. Of course there are the nuts who believe that he was some kind of smiling obese god, but there in the minority.

Wrong monk.

The Jesus myth was actually the work of Buddhists infiltrating middle eastern faith to make it more acceptable.

True story.

albo: following a system that has gods as part of its lore casts a question on whether you really can be considered an atheist.

Depends. Its been awhile since I knew the inside baseball of Buddhism... are you allowed to believe such tales are "lore?"

You can still call them "Gods." and be atheist. Just like you'd call Greek Gods, "Gods." Its their name. And you can learn from them I suppose and not believe they're Gods or even existed at all.

albo: hubiestubert: Even the gods in Buddhist lore, are examples of those trapped in their roles and actions. While there is veneration of these powerful entities for their roles as forces of nature, they are still forever trapped in them.

following a system that has gods as part of its lore casts a question on whether you really can be considered an atheist.

Not so much, when you consider that Buddhism is very much a path steeped in duality and metaphor. Much of Buddhism is metaphor, and that includes the role of the gods themselves. Belief and respect are different things. Do you have to believe in Agni to respect fire? Can you tell parables about Agni that have practical application through the power of metaphor? Much of Buddhist thought is taught in ways that lead folks to ponder their own interpretations--and the tales are ways of leading folks down paths to consider, so that they can come up with their own answers. Metaphor is useful in that context.

We are talking about a system of thought that is half a millennia older than Christianity. That metaphor is tied up with the concept of deities, and mind you, at the time, very different interpretations than the Hindu priests taught themselves, it isn't surprising that it uses the language and imagery of that faith--and likewise, when Buddhism has moved, it has adopted the metaphor and imagery of the culture it finds itself in to teach. And that includes a culture that accepts no gods.

Gods are not necessary to walk the Middle Road, but the language and metaphor are often useful for bridging concepts.

downstairs: You can still call them "Gods." and be atheist. Just like you'd call Greek Gods, "Gods." Its their name. And you can learn from them I suppose and not believe they're Gods or even existed at all.

I call the Christian god God. I capitalize pronouns in reference to Him. That doesn't make him real. That just means I grew up speaking a language dominated by Christians.

albo: There are certainly theist Buddhists. There are likewise agnostic Buddhists, and even atheists as well. In a similar fashion, there are theist Unitarians. And agnostic Unitarians. And atheist Unitarians. There is a lot of room for discussion between all of those parties, and none of that distracts or detracts from the basics of the Eightfold Path.

1. Right View--To be able to see the impermanent nature of our existence, and that all beings suffer. From a grasping of this commonality, we can perform actions.

2. Right Intention--To commit oneself to ethical and mental self improvement. The intention to resist desire. The intention of good will. The intention of harmlessness and compassion.

3. Right Speech--In application of our Right Intentions, we apply that concept. To abstain from deceit in our words. To abstain from harming others with our speech. To abstain from malice in our speech. To use our words for purpose.

4. Right Action--In application of our Right Intentions, we apply that concept further. To abstain from actions that harm others. To abstain from stealing and defrauding. To abstain from sexual misconduct. Our actions are an expression of our compassion with others.

5. Right Livelihood--Further application of Right Intentions. Earn your living without harming others. Avoid professions that would have you violate Right Speech and Right Action.

6. Right Effort--In a refinement of Right Intentions and Right Thought, we discipline ourselves to prevent the rise of unwholesome states. Our efforts to direct our energies to the useful.

7. Right Mindfulness--In further refinement, we discipline ourselves to perfect our cognition and mental clarity. To be able to consider our perceptions and be mindful and aware of our interpretations. Be aware of our process of conceptualization. The Buddha taught the Four Foundations of Mindfulness: 1. contemplation of the body, 2. contemplation of feeling, 3. contemplation of the state of mind, and 4. contemplation of the phenomena.

8. Right Concentration--A further refinement of mindfulness, we must apply not just our cognition, but develop natural and wholesome concentration. To learn to develop our ability to concentrate, we practice with meditation, and to learn to apply that concentration and direct it.

None of these things requires a deity. None of these things require a belief in anything but your own ability to take responsibility for your own actions and your own development. Buddhism is about taking responsibility for your own life. You begin with yourself, and when you do that, you may realize how responsibility to ourselves can extend compassion to others.

Not because it is commanded, but through realization that those around us are connected to us, and that they are deserving of compassion, not because a Sky God commands it, but because folks are just like you, and even extensions of yourself. It is a philosophy of equality and responsibility, not submission. Respecting yourself leads to the respect of others. Exercise of compassion and understanding for yourself leads to compassion and understanding of others.

itazurakko: Thing is, Buddhism is huge, with tons of different streams. Some of them are absolutely packed with woo (even if not exactly "sky fairy" woo). But a lot of the varieties of Buddhism that people (non-atheist, non-Western) people I know have practiced isn't very much like the stuff you see outside of ethnic communities in the US.

Pureland Buddhism. *shudder* It's Eastern-Christianity-lite.

SphericalTime: itazurakko: Thing is, Buddhism is huge, with tons of different streams. Some of them are absolutely packed with woo (even if not exactly "sky fairy" woo). But a lot of the varieties of Buddhism that people (non-atheist, non-Western) people I know have practiced isn't very much like the stuff you see outside of ethnic communities in the US.

Pureland Buddhism. *shudder* It's Eastern-Christianity-lite.

...and then there's the Nichiren...

incrdbil: Trend followers jump on the new shiny thing in their effort to look cool and feel smug. Atheism has peaked, time for the next fad.

You mean like Purity Rings?

Becoming a Buddhist is one of those things people do so they can look cool....like claming you're a huge Dave Matthews Band fan.

PeterPipersPickledPecker: jehovahs witness protection: Tiger Woods used to be atheist?

What's the difference between Tiger Woods and Santa Claus?


I have no idea.