mofomisfit:
You must now justify your life. What are you doing that's so much more awesome?

/this works either way for me, because if you really are doing something spectacular, good for you! I'd love to hear it.


Well, I'm Grand Dragon of my local chapter of...no, better not write that.

Seriously, I don't have to justify my life to anyone but myself, but I'll just tell you what's up and you decide.

I'm a recovering alcoholic who did two tours in rehab before I got the monkey off my back. I also smoked a lot of pot, but I didn't have a problem quitting that. Booze was my problem.

I spent many, many years not doing anything career-wise and I had a long list of excuses to explain why. Instead, I took jobs that were easy and simple and didn't conflict with my "lifestyle." I would tell people that I was happy. I had a "good job" with a "cool boss" and I could live my life any way that I chose.

The truth was that I was miserable. I felt like a failure because I wasn't really doing what I wanted to do and any attempts I made to break out of the cycle I was in never worked out, usually because I was in an altered state of mind most of the time and I was hardly in a position to give things my very best effort. I was also afraid to try.

Long story short: I'm lucky that booze is so hard on the human body. I had a hilarious vomiting-blood episode which led to a hospital visit, followed by a weekend in rehab, another year of drinking and drugging, and then my final rehab visit.

When I got out the (hopefully) last time. I finally realized that I had a choice to make. I could either 1) drink, or 2) do absolutely anything else in the world I felt like doing. I chose option 2.
That was years ago, but the results were almost immediate. As soon as I really found out what I wanted to do, and as soon as I really tried, opportunities just popped up on all sides. It was freaky.
So, now, I'm not rich, but I'm successful. I'm doing work that I love and I'm really good at it, and I'm getting paid for it. I'm not working some job just to support my "lifestyle," (which wasn't much of a life anyway) my work and my life are one and the same and I'm very happy.

The original post which started all this was about a guy who smoked pot all day while he worked in food service. If that's what truly makes you happy and gives you a sense of fulfillment, then I say go for it. I'm just saying if you took the pot out of the equation, would you still be happy? If not, then you need to take a good look at what you're spending your time on.
Myself, I don't need to add any chemicals to myself to make my day fun any more. My life now is my drug.

reklamfox: Thats the difference, people with cancer or Alzheimer don't get that choice. Drug addiction is 100% preventable. Stopping the drug abuse cycle is very difficult but that alone shouldn't ensure it a "disease" label. You can halt the course of your addiction with very strong self control. It's a choice.

Your choice argument regarding the medical definition of a disease is deeply flawed. If an alcoholic gets cirrhosis (sp?) or a chain smoker gets lung cancer, are they not diseases due to the fact that they were caused by choices? If I avoid vitamin C like the plague and get scurvy, is it not a disease because I chose to avoid vitamin C? If I lie in the sun 60 hours a week as a pasty white guy and get melanoma, is it not a disease because I chose to put myself in a situation? I could come up with dozens more examples but I think my point is obvious... A hardcore alcohlic or a heroin addict will become extremely ill mentally and physically if their drug is taken away from them cold turkey. A non-addict will not have this reaction in the absence of the same substances. Addiction is a disease.

helloooooooo fark

long time lurker, rare poster.. also a regular smoker here, so i feel i must contribute my two cents: i find that i can code far more effectively if i'm high. and nothing beats a fat bowl of tasty dank with a cup of fresh coffee out of the french press on a beautiful spring morning. _nothing_.

also, i just have to say how astonished i am that i'm agreeing with Phil_Herup. first time for everything, i suppose. well done sir!

jessicat: Weed motivated me to get things done so I could smoke and relax.

Typical stoner rationalization. Imagine how much more productive you could have been, without the weed and the relaxing.

Seriously, though, I've found that weed can make me more productive at certain things. For instance, I don't like painting, and I don't do a good on the trim - my patience wanes, since I just want to get it over with. However, after a hit or two, I can paint trim for hours, if necessary, and the job will be done faster and better, as I'm not rushing to finish and having to redo sections.

I wouldn't toke up while writing code at work, cutting firewood with a chainsaw, or carving a wooden spoon, but for painting trim, it's the bomb.

reklamfox: What those people didn't see is the YEARS my father spent heavily drinking himself into a stupor every day.

Uh... what? He drank himself stupid every day because he was an alcoholic for all those years. That's what alcoholism is.

Dear Daughter,

Drugs are rarely dangerous until money or its equivilant are involved. If you only do drugs that are given to you freely by someone you are certain is not looking for something in return, your drug karma will be positive, your use extremely infrequent, and you will have very little to worry about.

Also, don't smoke crack and never trust a tweaker.

Dad

Weaver95: y'know what our problem is? with the war on drugs I mean. Our problem is that we don't treat addiction as an illness. For some reason, our society ignores addiction. Our society assumes that if someone is addicted, then they're weak. And we despise weakness, so we punish them when we find out about it. we create the cycle of shame, drug abuse, prison and more drug abuse and then we blame the addict for the whole thing.

addiction isn't a moral weakness. it's a valid, measurable biochemical condition. it's no different than any other disease, and just as treatable. I'm not excusing crimes committed under the influence of drugs mind you...but what I am saying is that we need to treat addicts for their addiction. locking up addicts only means that when they come out of prison...they're still addicts. you don't lock up a cancer patient and expect them to not have cancer when they get out of jail.

*sigh*

sorry. it's late and the whole 'war on drugs' thing just pisses me off. especially our hypocrisy when it comes to drugs.

Find me one single person "addicted" to weed.

Slaves2Darkness: pdxbarista: Potheads are harmless when left alone, but when poked, may attack. Handle with care.

But it is a lot of fun to poke them. They get so indignant when you point out that they must be broken inferior humans who need a chemical crutch to get through life.

I am, and I do. So farking what? Would you rather I go on a shooting spree?

reklamfox: Chickenpox is a disease even though some people get it and some people don't, and it can be cured.

Alcoholism is classified as a disease for a reason. Mainly because the people who have studied it, treated it, and devoted a significant portion of their professional lives to understanding it know a little more about it than you do...

All I know is what I've seen growing up with an alcoholic for a parent. Over and over people have told me "Well you should pity him because he's sick from a disease". Why? What those people didn't see is the YEARS my father spent heavily drinking himself into a stupor every day. It took effort for him to become a homeless alcoholic bum. Thats why I say it's a choice. Call me ignorant all you wish, but I simply fail to see how drug addiction is classified as a disease. My father could have put the bottle down and gotten his life back at any point. The side affects of that "disease" were all 100% preventable. I know there are plenty of other farkers who agree with me.


O.K., You're ignorant. I was raised with an alcoholic mother, and I am an alcoholic as well. Saying that your father could have put the bottle down on his own is proof of your ignorance of alcoholism. I lost every thing I had, and still was not willing to let go of the bottle. Luckily, my one and only remaining friend got a member of A.A. involved, and I learned about why I drank. An alcoholic's mind tells him or her that it is O.K. to take just one little drink. They can handle it this time. However, our physical makeup is different from those who do not have the disorder. Something clicks when we take alcohol into our system, and we lose the ability to stop or moderate. Period. I, by the way have been sober since June 2,2001. I am one of the lucky ones. My mom? No longer with us.

CheekyMunky: mofomisfit: You must now justify your life. What are you doing that's so much more awesome?

/this works either way for me, because if you really are doing something spectacular, good for you! I'd love to hear it.

Don't know what his answer is, but I can throw a story out there. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I've done my share of wasting time and being stupid in the past, and I don't do it much now because I have a lot to do and need to be sharp.

[snip]

Well I'm glad you're feeling fulfilled. I don't see anything in your post that says to me that there's anything...more special? more inherently valuable? about your life than a stoners, but I truly am glad you feel like your life is going in a positive direction.

CheekyMunky: Slaves2Darkness: They get so indignant when you point out that they must be broken inferior humans who need a chemical crutch to get through life.

How do you view alcoholics?

They should diaf. Yes even my mother, farking biatch. Yeah I'm a little bitter about my childhood surrounded by drug addicts, alcoholics, sex abusers, rapists, murders, arsonists, and thieves. I called them family.

CheekyMonkey: jessicat: Weed motivated me to get things done so I could smoke and relax.

Typical stoner rationalization. Imagine how much more productive you could have been, without the weed and the relaxing.

Jesus man, you keep almost getting me. :D

thinks_on_feet:
When you take a math test and you prepare and you do well on that test, do you believe it was luck, preparation or genetic predisposition that helped/allowed you to achieve the passing grade?

It was your choice to prepare, just as it was your choice to not buy more cocaine (eventually).

There is no medical evidence an "addict" has a different brain, or any other damn thing, when compared to a "non-addict" because "addiction" is a behavioral diagnosis.

It's psychological. I'm not saying it's psychosomatic -- clearly there's a phsyiological response to drugs (when you get them, when you don't get them and want them) -- but it's choice-driven behavior that starts the cycle wherein the "addict" forgets that, unlike my aunt who died from cancer regardless of the body parts they kept removing over the years, the "addiction" disease is CURED when the patient stops engaging in the behavior that is killing him.

So, yeah, STFU and DIAF, idiot.



Boy, you're an angry little man, aren't you?

cryinoutloud: Slaves2Darkness: pdxbarista: Potheads are harmless when left alone, but when poked, may attack. Handle with care.

But it is a lot of fun to poke them. They get so indignant when you point out that they must be broken inferior humans who need a chemical crutch to get through life.

I am, and I do. So farking what? Would you rather I go on a shooting spree?

Yeah actully I would. I also believe that there are too many humans on earth and the more people we kill the better off we will be.

PainInTheASP: I have no problem with this article, save for the following line:

They smoke all the time - they may even "wake an bake" which means smoking first thing in the morning instead of coffee.

...to which I call bullshiat. Coffee is a neccesary part of the wake-n-bake. Almost as much as the pot itself.

/AGREED!

Rereading this thread has me in total amazement that I've actually agreed with well thought out posts by Phil Herup... I must have woken up in bizzaro world.

thinks_on_feet: So, yeah, STFU and DIAF, idiot.

I AM NOT BIATCH

Phil Herup: It is a plant. It has been on Earth for eons.

That's a farking stupid argument and I hate you for using it. Arsenic and uranium have been around a lot longer than pot. Should we all eat arsenic sammiches and stick uranium up our butts? Bobcats and killer whales are 100% natural as well. Should we try to cuddle with them?

EABOD plz.

Karma Curmudgeon: thinks_on_feet: It's psychological.

Here you go. 23,100 scholarly articles on the link between genetics and additction. (new window) And when you're done disproving those, you should let the American Psychiatric Association know because they're under the impression that approximately 50% of the causes of addiction are genetic in nature. Happy reading!

I'm not sure you know what "psychological" means, so I'm not going to vigorously attack the rest of what you said, mostly because I don't disagree with it.

Most of what happens to us, phsiologically, as we are developing and later, as we're in decline, is in some way "genetic."

Your pedantic attempt to target semantics is super gay.

Jimbo-slam: "A Child's Garden of Grass" ...one of the best "how to" books about weed. Very informative, very funny. Written in the early '70s I think.

Thank you for the reference - title has been added to my Amazon wishlist for later purchase.

/Glad the husband understands some books are just too interesting to pass up

O.K., You're ignorant. I was raised with an alcoholic mother, and I am an alcoholic as well. Saying that your father could have put the bottle down on his own is proof of your ignorance of alcoholism. I lost every thing I had, and still was not willing to let go of the bottle. Luckily, my one and only remaining friend got a member of A.A. involved, and I learned about why I drank. An alcoholic's mind tells him or her that it is O.K. to take just one little drink. They can handle it this time. However, our physical makeup is different from those who do not have the disorder. Something clicks when we take alcohol into our system, and we lose the ability to stop or moderate. Period. I, by the way have been sober since June 2,2001. I am one of the lucky ones. My mom? No longer with us.

No, I'm sorry but when you pick that bottle up and put it to your lips, you are personally responsible for everything that happens to you. If it were a matter of your brain being unable to tell you to stop drinking, there would be no sober alcohol users. At what point does personal responsibility come into play? When my father saw his life shatter, his kids taken away, his company lost, his house sold and his life ruined he could have stepped back and gotten help for himself. But instead he choose to drink.

When I have a crisis in my life, I don't drink myself into a stupor. I get help like a normal person should. All those years he spent drinking himself into a stupor are when he was still working and able to afford to do so. Now in his later years, he is just an alcoholic.

CheekyMunky: reklamfox: What those people didn't see is the YEARS my father spent heavily drinking himself into a stupor every day.

Uh... what? He drank himself stupid every day because he was an alcoholic for all those years. That's what alcoholism is.

You are biased, reklamfox because of what you grew up with. I don't blame you for being bitter. But you don't know what addiction feels like.

I was a drunk from the first time I had a bottle of Boone's Farm. I remember it well--I was staggering all over the place, my friend had given up and was just sitting on the ground, and I took her bottle and finished it too. Since that first time I drank every single time I got a chance.

Right before I went into rehab, my mother told me, "I think you just drank yourself into being an alcoholic." Now that hurt--do you think we choose to fark up our lives like that? I didn't go to college and almost flunk out because I loved farking up my life and being a sloppy drunk all the time, when everybody else was having the time of their life in college, planning their lives and accomplishing all kinds of things.

My mother also told me that she had no idea where my alcoholism had come from, since there were no alcoholics in her family (only about half of them, and the rest are crazy. And she's gone through a couple of heavy drinking periods herself.) Never underestimate the power of denial, or of genetics.

Jument: Phil Herup: It is a plant. It has been on Earth for eons.

That's a farking stupid argument and I hate you for using it. Arsenic and uranium have been around a lot longer than pot. Should we all eat arsenic sammiches and stick uranium up our butts? Bobcats and killer whales are 100% natural as well. Should we try to cuddle with them?


No, we should pay our government billions of dollars to fly around in helicopters looking for them and taking them out.

Your choice argument regarding the medical definition of a disease is deeply flawed. If an alcoholic gets cirrhosis (sp?) or a chain smoker gets lung cancer, are they not diseases due to the fact that they were caused by choices?

Cirrhosis is a disease that an alcoholic can develop. What I'm talking about is the conglomerate of all those disorders that arise from long term alcohol/drug abuse together shouldn't be called a disease. It's a choice that's 100% preventable.

//Wish I could stay and argue with you guys, but I've gotta go to work! Stay classy farkers.

mofomisfit: Well I'm glad you're feeling fulfilled. I don't see anything in your post that says to me that there's anything...more special? more inherently valuable? about your life than a stoners, but I truly am glad you feel like your life is going in a positive direction.

If your challenge is to prove to you that a clean life is more "special" or "inherently valuable" than a stoned one, then you've obviously set up an impossible task, as those are entirely subjective criteria. I will, however, point out two things:

1) I do, in fact, feel that my life is moving in a much better direction than I did when I was drinking and such, and I have been far more effective since walking away from it and getting focused.

2) As I said in my post, when I look at the people around me, it is the regular drinkers and smokers that seem to be most dissatisfied with their own lives. I get this impression not simply from the fact that they are drinking and smoking, but by their outlooks and attitudes. The things they say. I'm not judging their lives - I'm simply observing their own judgments.

It could be that it's just where I'm at in my life, and the environments that I'm in. But at this point, that's what I have to go on, and while there are certainly exceptions, the rule seems very clearly to be that people who are relatively clean and active are happier and more successful - again, by their own criteria - than those who are stoned and "relaxing".

Help_Me_I'm_Lost: Jimbo-slam: "A Child's Garden of Grass" ...one of the best "how to" books about weed. Very informative, very funny. Written in the early '70s I think.

Thank you for the reference - title has been added to my Amazon wishlist for later purchase.

/Glad the husband understands some books are just too interesting to pass up

agreed, my copy shall arrive in 2 days!

Devil's Playground: reklamfox: Chickenpox is a disease even though some people get it and some people don't, and it can be cured.

Alcoholism is classified as a disease for a reason. Mainly because the people who have studied it, treated it, and devoted a significant portion of their professional lives to understanding it know a little more about it than you do...

All I know is what I've seen growing up with an alcoholic for a parent. Over and over people have told me "Well you should pity him because he's sick from a disease". Why? What those people didn't see is the YEARS my father spent heavily drinking himself into a stupor every day. It took effort for him to become a homeless alcoholic bum. Thats why I say it's a choice. Call me ignorant all you wish, but I simply fail to see how drug addiction is classified as a disease. My father could have put the bottle down and gotten his life back at any point. The side affects of that "disease" were all 100% preventable. I know there are plenty of other farkers who agree with me.


O.K., You're ignorant. I was raised with an alcoholic mother, and I am an alcoholic as well. Saying that your father could have put the bottle down on his own is proof of your ignorance of alcoholism. I lost every thing I had, and still was not willing to let go of the bottle. Luckily, my one and only remaining friend got a member of A.A. involved, and I learned about why I drank. An alcoholic's mind tells him or her that it is O.K. to take just one little drink. They can handle it this time. However, our physical makeup is different from those who do not have the disorder. Something clicks when we take alcohol into our system, and we lose the ability to stop or moderate. Period. I, by the way have been sober since June 2,2001. I am one of the lucky ones. My mom? No longer with us.

Once you realized why you drank, how did you sober up? By CHOOSING TO PUT THE BOTTLE DOWN. Christ, people.

Cannabis is an annual, dioecious, flowering herb.

aiiee: I've worked with the wake and bake crowd, they aren't reliable, don't want nothing to do with them. Other than that, well, I can't get over that.

I agree. I came into this thread for the typical Fark potheads arguing that the "stoner" group FTA doesn't exist and that they're all really just "regulars." To those folks: You're in denial. You may have been a regular at one point, but you've slipped into the stoner group. If you want proof, look at what you're doing right now: arguing on the internet!

Devil's Playground: O.K., You're ignorant. I was raised with an alcoholic mother, and I am an alcoholic as well. Saying that your father could have put the bottle down on his own is proof of your ignorance of alcoholism.

Hmm. I know 2 alcoholics who've "put the bottle down on their own". Both of them went to a couple of AA meetings, and decided that AA was not for them. I know at least one* of them went through a few "off the wagon" episodes, but he's now been alcohol-free for 13 years. Not saying that everyone can do it this way, but it certainly can be done.

*note that this one finally realized he might be an alcoholic, when, after hosting a New Years party, he started doing doughnuts in his car, on the lawn, and crashed into his apartment house.

trancemission:
Once you realized why you drank, how did you sober up? By CHOOSING TO PUT THE BOTTLE DOWN. Christ, people.

Most of us came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. We didn't do it on our own.

Usage should be at the discretion of the individual and not the government.

It's our right and duty as citizens to take control of our own lives and bear the consequences of our own actions again. We must demand these rights. The validity of the drug war is just one of many serious social issues that must be addressed in the real war for a less litigious society, fought for freedom of personal choice and the reality of the necessity for responsibility in the individual.

trancemission: Devil's Playground: reklamfox: Chickenpox is a disease even though some people get it and some people don't, and it can be cured.

Alcoholism is classified as a disease for a reason. Mainly because the people who have studied it, treated it, and devoted a significant portion of their professional lives to understanding it know a little more about it than you do...

All I know is what I've seen growing up with an alcoholic for a parent. Over and over people have told me "Well you should pity him because he's sick from a disease". Why? What those people didn't see is the YEARS my father spent heavily drinking himself into a stupor every day. It took effort for him to become a homeless alcoholic bum. Thats why I say it's a choice. Call me ignorant all you wish, but I simply fail to see how drug addiction is classified as a disease. My father could have put the bottle down and gotten his life back at any point. The side affects of that "disease" were all 100% preventable. I know there are plenty of other farkers who agree with me.


O.K., You're ignorant. I was raised with an alcoholic mother, and I am an alcoholic as well. Saying that your father could have put the bottle down on his own is proof of your ignorance of alcoholism. I lost every thing I had, and still was not willing to let go of the bottle. Luckily, my one and only remaining friend got a member of A.A. involved, and I learned about why I drank. An alcoholic's mind tells him or her that it is O.K. to take just one little drink. They can handle it this time. However, our physical makeup is different from those who do not have the disorder. Something clicks when we take alcohol into our system, and we lose the ability to stop or moderate. Period. I, by the way have been sober since June 2,2001. I am one of the lucky ones. My mom? No longer with us.

Once you realized why you drank, how did you sober up? By CHOOSING TO PUT THE BOTTLE DOWN. Christ, people.

God, I wish it was so easy. You have no idea how many times I made the choice to "just put the bottle down" only to pick it up again. How I learned to live life with out drinking was simple. I made changes in my personal life that allowed me to feel like I was actually a part of society for the first time ever.

CheekyMunky: mofomisfit: Well I'm glad you're feeling fulfilled. I don't see anything in your post that says to me that there's anything...more special? more inherently valuable? about your life than a stoners, but I truly am glad you feel like your life is going in a positive direction.

If your challenge is to prove to you that a clean life is more "special" or "inherently valuable" than a stoned one, then you've obviously set up an impossible task, as those are entirely subjective criteria. I will, however, point out two things:

1) I do, in fact, feel that my life is moving in a much better direction than I did when I was drinking and such, and I have been far more effective since walking away from it and getting focused.

2) As I said in my post, when I look at the people around me, it is the regular drinkers and smokers that seem to be most dissatisfied with their own lives. I get this impression not simply from the fact that they are drinking and smoking, but by their outlooks and attitudes. The things they say. I'm not judging their lives - I'm simply observing their own judgments.

It could be that it's just where I'm at in my life, and the environments that I'm in. But at this point, that's what I have to go on, and while there are certainly exceptions, the rule seems very clearly to be that people who are relatively clean and active are happier and more successful - again, by their own criteria - than those who are stoned and "relaxing".

I'm not really "challenging" you to do anything, as you said you can't prove that your life is better than anyone else's, that was the point. As I said before, I am sincerely happy that you have improved your life.

Your second paragraph, as you admit, is just your observation, and not really relevant. I could just as easily point to, say, Carl Sagan. That dude smoked more pot than any of us and look what HE accomplished.

Slaves2Darkness: Voiceofreason01: RockofAges: CheekyMunky: I'm all for legalization of pot, if only to take the glamor out of it. From what I've seen - which is a lot - stoners love to think of themselves as enlightened counter-cultural rebels. They're not. They just like sucking on a flaming plant that makes them stupid.

.
.
.

It's true. Talking about how awesome beer is, that's obviously stupid too. Which is why Fark loves doing it, and has several awesome beer threads on a monthly basis.

God, where does Fark drag up all these dry idiots? You sound like a bitter nerd. It might be time to loosen the clip-on tie for a bit, poindexter.

As a bitter nerd I would like to point out that beer makes everything better. In the Old Testament when they talk about "Mana from heaven" they're refering to cases of beer. Probably Samuel Adams.

/beer is better than weed

Mana is typically considered bread of the gods, the gods live in heaven, heaven is a place that is high, Mana from heaven is obviously a reference to bread that gets you high. Hence gods favorite food is pot brownies.

Actually, that really more supports the beer argument.

reklamfox:

I really feel like I should mind my own business here, but I can't since you know, you put it out there for everyone to read.
I think it's interesting that you point to your father who lost everything and blame him for his choices.


When my father saw his life shatter, his kids taken away, his company lost, his house sold and his life ruined he could should have stepped back and gotten help for himself.
But he didn't. I wonder what was preventing him from stopping? he must have wanted to lose everything, right?
or could it possibly be that he suffered from a disease?

I can only imagine how hard and retarded it must seem to realize he is a victim of a disease. and so you deny it.
wtf do i know. i'm some guy on the internet.

cryinoutloud: CheekyMunky: reklamfox: What those people didn't see is the YEARS my father spent heavily drinking himself into a stupor every day.

Uh... what? He drank himself stupid every day because he was an alcoholic for all those years. That's what alcoholism is.

You are biased, reklamfox because of what you grew up with. I don't blame you for being bitter. But you don't know what addiction feels like.

I was a drunk from the first time I had a bottle of Boone's Farm. I remember it well--I was staggering all over the place, my friend had given up and was just sitting on the ground, and I took her bottle and finished it too. Since that first time I drank every single time I got a chance.

Right before I went into rehab, my mother told me, "I think you just drank yourself into being an alcoholic." Now that hurt--do you think we choose to fark up our lives like that? I didn't go to college and almost flunk out because I loved farking up my life and being a sloppy drunk all the time, when everybody else was having the time of their life in college, planning their lives and accomplishing all kinds of things.

My mother also told me that she had no idea where my alcoholism had come from, since there were no alcoholics in her family (only about half of them, and the rest are crazy. And she's gone through a couple of heavy drinking periods herself.) Never underestimate the power of denial, or of genetics.

We have no sympathy for you. Those of us who have lived with parents who were drunks or addicts have no sympathy for other drunks or addicts. Personally if you are a drunk or drug addict I just wish you would man up and kill your self. The world is better off without you. Yeah I'm very bitter about the subject.

Regnad Kcin: trancemission:
Once you realized why you drank, how did you sober up? By CHOOSING TO PUT THE BOTTLE DOWN. Christ, people.

Most of us came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. We didn't do it on our own.

You may think that it was God, or realizing "why" you drank, or the support of others, or any number of things that enabled you to CHOOSE to stop drinking, but at the end of the day it was all up to you to take responsibility for your life. Congratulations. You've already blamed other things for your failure, why blame other things for your success?

CheekyMonkey: Devil's Playground: O.K., You're ignorant. I was raised with an alcoholic mother, and I am an alcoholic as well. Saying that your father could have put the bottle down on his own is proof of your ignorance of alcoholism.

Hmm. I know 2 alcoholics who've "put the bottle down on their own". Both of them went to a couple of AA meetings, and decided that AA was not for them. I know at least one* of them went through a few "off the wagon" episodes, but he's now been alcohol-free for 13 years. Not saying that everyone can do it this way, but it certainly can be done.

*note that this one finally realized he might be an alcoholic, when, after hosting a New Years party, he started doing doughnuts in his car, on the lawn, and crashed into his apartment house.

Actually, you have probably known two "Heavy Drinkers" who made the decision on their own. A true alcoholic can not do that. Also, you may have noticed that I do not use the word disease. In the book of Alcoholics Anonymous the word disease is used just once. We have a malady. There have been many studies that show that an alcoholic processes ethyl alcohol differently.

mofomisfit:
Your second paragraph, as you admit, is just your observation, and not really relevant. I could just as easily point to, say, Carl Sagan. That dude smoked more pot than any of us and look what HE accomplished.

He made a lot of observations. Apparently you consider those relevant, though.

And I did say that there are exceptions. It's easy to cherry-pick, as you can always find a few. I was talking about years of accumulated observation of thousands of cases leading to a strong overarching impression.

Karma Curmudgeon: Citation! (new window)

To begin a discussion of the contribution of genetics to the treatment of addictive disorders, one must first understand that the addictive disorders are complex genetic diseases in which genetic factors interact with environmental factors to affect risk. There are several independent lines of evidence for genetic contributions to vulnerability to alcoholism. These include studies of children adopted at early ages by nonrelatives, which show a stronger correlation of alcoholism in the adoptee with their biological parents than with their adoptive parents (Bohman et al., 1981 and Cloninger et al., 1981). An independent line of evidence comes from studies of twins. The monozygotic co-twin of an alcoholic individual, who is genetically identical to that individual, is more likely to be alcoholic than the dizygotic co-twin of an alcoholic, who shares only half of the genome with the proband. Twin studies generally estimate that 50-65% of the variation in risk is genetic (Pickens et al., 1991, Kendler et al., 1994 and Heath et al., 1997) and that there are both alcoholism-specific genetic factors and factors shared with vulnerability to dependence on other substances. It is important to note that not all monozygotic co-twins of alcoholics are themselves alcoholic, which reinforces the idea that although genetics plays an important role in determining vulnerability, genes are not destiny. A third line of evidence for genetic contributions to the vulnerability to alcoholism comes from animal models (McBride & Li, 1998 and Li, 2000). Several aspects of alcoholism, including consumption or preference for alcohol, intensity of withdrawal seizures, and sensitivity to the sedative or activating properties of alcohol, can be modeled in animals, which can be genetically selected for high or low values of these traits, demonstrating that they are under genetic influence (e.g., Waller et al., 1984 M.B. Waller, W.J. McBride, G.J. Gatto, L. Lumeng and T.K. Li, Intragastric self-infusion of ethanol by ethanol-preferring and -nonpreferring lines of rats, Science 225 (1984), pp. 78-80. View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (67)Waller et al., 1984, Buck et al., 1997, Markel et al., 1997, McBride & Li, 1998, Whatley et al., 1999 and Belknap & Atkins, 2001). A final line of evidence, and in many ways the most compelling, is from genetic studies in humans. We have known for decades that there are variations in the genes that metabolize alcohol (i.e., alcohol dehydrogenases [ADHs] and aldehyde dehydrogenases [ALDHs]), which can dramatically affect one's risk for alcoholism (reviewed in Hurley et al., 2002 and Li, 2000). More recent studies are identifying other specific genes, including those that influence neurotransmitter function, that affect the risk for alcoholism and related traits. It is clear from the convergence of these independent lines of evidence that genetic variation affects risk for alcoholism. Many of these variations affect other phenotypes as well, including depression and responses to other drugs.

Woops. Probably not the citation he was looking for.


Point still missed: Predispositions, some of which can cause a person with no self-control, otherwise, to become (in his mind) "addicted" to the effects of a substance he did not need to ingest in order to continue living, otherwise in reasonably good health, certainly exist... unfortunately, it appears a lot of us have them and they never do a damn thing.

Almost half the time, in fact, nothing happens at all.

Perhaps the numbers indicate nothing about genetic predispositions but a lot about learned behavior? I can't say. I don't work in this field of research.

I also believe it's safe to say the "function" of predispositions is entirely chemical.

I believe you fail to grasp the significant gap between "genetic predispositions" (minor chemical differences causing or resulting in varied physiological response to stimuli) and purposeful and willful behavior intended to cause interactions within the chemical balance of the brain, forcing new chemical variation, hoping to ALWAYS result in pleasure... but which cannot always result in pleasure due to the nature of the structures creating the chemicals.

But it's true for all of us... so, you probably also underestimate the "complex interaction" (or whatever the guy you cite called it) between all these predispositions and things we begin seeing and hearing as infants... in other words, learned behavior.

Purposeful and preventable behavior is always the sole source of symptoms of the "disease" of "addiction." That being said, you can't call it a disease and you can't claim it's in your blood and out of your control.

I win.

Coconut Tequila: ttyymmnn: Plus it's good for asthma. And I don't need this medical (^) study. I lived it. I smoked weed and stopped my asthma medication.

Money quote: The effects of smoked marijuana on acute, experimentally induced bronchoconstriction and hyperinflation noted in the present study extend our previous observations of significant bronchodilatation and reduction in hyperinflation in resting patients with stable bronchial asthma (3).

I wish I knew someone around here to get some from then, I would kill not to have to know where my inhaler is at every second of the day just in case my lungs decide to stop working. I can't even go for walks much anymore because i make it about 2 blocks then everything closes down.

one word for you: advair. if you're constantly reaching for albuterol, you're doing it wrong.

`Well, dear daughter, avoid the farking Indicas and stick with Sativas that thrive near the equator.'

Can remember when the Indicas started becoming popular. Everyone referred to it as `fat girl dope'. Like being around a bunch of arseholes eating Nembutals and slugging back Southern Comfort; lively conversationalists.

If a plant's first set of Plate leaves can't be tossed into the microwave, vaporized, and put one's head through the ceiling and move one's feet out the door, then it is best just to drink Old Miss Frothingslosh and mumble.

/keep it illegal - fun to plan out where to plant the local ditchweed, i.e., on what local candidate's property it can be placed - call the 1-800-BAD-WEED line two weeks before election and consider how much one voter can make a difference... (maybe they'll catch on to the ramifications someday, but I doubt it)

Devil's Playground: trancemission: Devil's Playground: reklamfox: Chickenpox is a disease even though some people get it and some people don't, and it can be cured.

Alcoholism is classified as a disease for a reason. Mainly because the people who have studied it, treated it, and devoted a significant portion of their professional lives to understanding it know a little more about it than you do...

All I know is what I've seen growing up with an alcoholic for a parent. Over and over people have told me "Well you should pity him because he's sick from a disease". Why? What those people didn't see is the YEARS my father spent heavily drinking himself into a stupor every day. It took effort for him to become a homeless alcoholic bum. Thats why I say it's a choice. Call me ignorant all you wish, but I simply fail to see how drug addiction is classified as a disease. My father could have put the bottle down and gotten his life back at any point. The side affects of that "disease" were all 100% preventable. I know there are plenty of other farkers who agree with me.


O.K., You're ignorant. I was raised with an alcoholic mother, and I am an alcoholic as well. Saying that your father could have put the bottle down on his own is proof of your ignorance of alcoholism. I lost every thing I had, and still was not willing to let go of the bottle. Luckily, my one and only remaining friend got a member of A.A. involved, and I learned about why I drank. An alcoholic's mind tells him or her that it is O.K. to take just one little drink. They can handle it this time. However, our physical makeup is different from those who do not have the disorder. Something clicks when we take alcohol into our system, and we lose the ability to stop or moderate. Period. I, by the way have been sober since June 2,2001. I am one of the lucky ones. My mom? No longer with us.

Once you realized why you drank, how did you sober up? By CHOOSING TO PUT THE BOTTLE DOWN. Christ, people.

God, I wish it was so easy. You have no idea how many times I made the choice to "just put the bottle down" only to pick it up again. How I learned to live life with out drinking was simple. I made changes in my personal life that allowed me to feel like I was actually a part of society for the first time ever.

EASY? Hell no, I never said it was easy. Especially for addictions with a physical component - alcohol, nicotine, opiates, etc. But it still comes down to being responsible for your choices, and you did that - note the bolded portion of your post. Congratulations.

Marijuana and Divergent Thinking (new window)

CheekyMunky: mofomisfit:
Your second paragraph, as you admit, is just your observation, and not really relevant. I could just as easily point to, say, Carl Sagan. That dude smoked more pot than any of us and look what HE accomplished.

He made a lot of observations. Apparently you consider those relevant, though.

And I did say that there are exceptions. It's easy to cherry-pick, as you can always find a few. I was talking about years of accumulated observation of thousands of cases leading to a strong overarching impression.

I'm sorry, the plural of anecdote is still not data.

JonnyJustice: Point being that there would be no benefit to smoking weed if you are in good health. That is dumb?

feeling good isn't a benefit?