FTA On orders from Maricopa County, a third-party vendor has archived an unknown quantity of e-mails written by Maricopa County Sheriff's Office personnel since August 2008.

The Sheriff's Office says the e-mails belong to them, and they should have been deleted from an emergency backup system after 28 days.

County management says the e-mails are county property. And the messages play into two federal cases, a racial-profiling civil lawsuit against Sheriff Joe Arpaio and an FBI criminal investigation into Arpaio's office, so they refused to turn them over to the sheriff.

So the sheriff ordered the emails archived, forgot, then deleted their emails thinking they were covering their tracks and now finds out that the order they had to save them was followed?

I hope you go down in flames, sheriff, along with your play mates, Andrew Thomas and Hendershott.

This guy just gets better and better.

Just remember Corporate America, when IS/IT guys get bored they read your emails.

Just wonderin' how sweeeet Sheriff Joe might look in a pink prison uniform

Andyr2120: Do I sound wishy washy if I say that he is perhaps the biggest douchebag in the US?


No there's bigger douchebags, but he's certainly in the top 10.

Joe Francis is likely the reigning King of the Douchebags in North America.

Dick Cheney is also up there near the top... I'd think Arpaio is somewhere around number 5 or 6? I dunno, I haven't done the research.

No, the biggest douchebag in America has got to be Fred Phelps.

But I would pay money to see Sheriff Arpaio chewing on moldy bologna in his pretty pink outfit. Heck, I would buy the special edition DVD.

Like it or not, Sheriff Joe is completely in the right here.

The emails from his office belong to him, and not some government hack on a fishing expedition.

Ikahoshi: in the top 10.

What's scary about Sheriff Jpe is his official status. I hope this is as far as he gets!

/just missing the small mustache...

So, I read the article and MY arse involuntarily puckered in sympathy for Sheriff Joe... and I'm more than diametrically opposed to the guy.

Sarrah Barracuda: Like it or not, Sheriff Joe is completely in the right here.

The emails from his office belong to him, and not some government hack on a fishing expedition.

Well, if he hasn't done anything wrong he's got nothing to fear, right?

Sarrah Barracuda 2010-03-09 05:43:15 AM
Like it or not, Sheriff Joe is completely in the right here.

The emails from his office belong to him, and not some government hack on a fishing expedition.

No, Sheriff Joe is rarely if ever in the right.
He was destroying evidence that he was ordered to turn over.
He's been hoist by his own petard.
He should put on a pink jumpsuit, grab a green bologna sandwich and hit the tent city. Nd hope no one beats & stabs him with a sharpened rebar tentspike.

Sarrah Barracuda: Like it or not, Sheriff Joe is completely in the right here.

The emails from his office belong to him, and not some government hack on a fishing expedition.

It's too bad you think this.

The emails belong to his employer. It's been pretty much decided in courts all over. You have no expectation of privacy when using your companies resources.

Also? They own any code you write. If you write something on company time and release it to the wild, you can be held financially responsible for not keeping held internally. You -must- get corporate legal clearance to release any code you write on while on the dole.

Sorry if you think otherwise.

Well. This should be entertaining...

Oh, shoot - I'd better go turn down the gain on the schaudenfreudeometer; took two weeks to fix it after it was announced he was being investigated... I let it go now, and it might take out a good chunk of the state.

Also, I need to go pop some corn; this ought to be GOOD.

Rohasman: So, I read the article and MY arse involuntarily puckered in sympathy for Sheriff Joe... and I'm more than diametrically opposed to the guy.

But I'm not opposed to the diameter of his sphincter radically increasing at an alarming rate.

sgnilward: What are they doing trying to delete the archived messages anyhow?

Most governments would keep those archived for eternity in order to prevent future legal action.

Sheriff Joe is going to end up in Federal PMITA Prison methinks.

You take the number of years you could get if the Feds get access to your emails; let's call this number "X".

Now you take the number of years you could get if the Feds want to do you up for destruction of evidence; let's call this number "Y".

If X>Y, you delete the emails and lie like your ass depends on it. Because it does.

See: BushCo & the Magical Missing Emails.

HAHA Stupid people don't know the internets!

I'd mock them more but I have to update my Facebook status in 26 minutes.

Rohasman: So, I read the article and MY arse involuntarily puckered in sympathy for Sheriff Joe... and I'm more than diametrically opposed to the guy.

So you're not completely opposed to him?

/diametrically opposed means across the diameter
//if you are are more than 180 degrees away from something, you're less than 180 degrees away from it

Joe should have just done what Sarah Palin did and use yahoo, at least then we all would have Joe's email thanks to /b/.

Sarrah Barracuda: Like it or not, Sheriff Joe is completely in the right here.

The emails from his office belong to him, and not some government hack on a fishing expedition.

Weak troll. 2/10 since you had a bite.

/Sarrah Barracuda is now marked in orange as a favorite
//orange == troll

FlashHarry: i don't know what joe arpaio looks like, so i'll just insert this pic of the "porky's" sheriff.



Looks just like but not as corrupt as Porky's.

Phlem Pickens: Just remember Corporate America, when IS/IT guys get bored they read your emails.

And then as a result they become MORE bored.

You are boring.

Opinions on the Sherriff aside, Just goes to remind you kiddos... Never put something in a work email that you wouldn't be willing to have printed on the front page of your local newspaper!

ak_hepcat: The emails belong to his employer. It's been pretty much decided in courts all over. You have no expectation of privacy when using your companies resources.

This may depend on other details of Arizona law. In some states, the sheriff is a constitutional officer not directly under the control of anyone. He may be his own boss.

More uninformed guessing: That said, I don't know if a judge would order the destruction of e-mails being used in at least three cases, though I suspect it'd be a lower bar to prohibit further e-mails from being archived. And I don't know what power is in this: "its e-mails had been archived since August 2008, following an order by another attorney for the county in an unrelated lawsuit involving county officials."

And of course we don't know if a state judge would have the power to destroy records already in the hands of a federal grand jury -- there may be a backup to the backup.

The federal grand jury angle sounds awful interesting to me.

Sherriff's raids on homes of third-party vendor in 3... 2... 1...

FTFA: "They never once told anybody that for the last two and half years, they've been backing up every single e-mail," Dowell said. "If some attorney is looking at my attorney-client e-mails, there are going to be some ethical problems."

Bwahahahaha!

This guy actually believes that plain text email sent over the internet is private?

Hey Matlock, Would you expect privacy and confidentially if you sent attorney-client privileged communication via postcard? Regular, unencrypted email is just that, a message written in clear text sent from point A to point B handled by an unknown number of persons along the way, any of which could look at or keep an archival copy of what you wrote.

Unless you take steps to keep your email private, it isn't, and you should not reasonably expect otherwise.

Encryption FTW!

When one used encryption, it acts like an envelope for your message, keeping it private from casual inspection by those that handle it along its journey. Records can still be kept of person X sent a message to person Y at such and such date at so and so time. Heck the message can be archived, but without the decryption key passphrase, it's unreadable. Of course, once a judge orders you to hand over the key passphrase so that the email can be used as evidence, you are Borked.

Patiently awaiting the leak of the emails unto the innertubes...

Were I the vendor I'd have copies to the Feds and in about a dozen vaults ASAP. One thing is clear - if that guy thinks you're in his way he's going to take you down, law or no law.

"They never once told anybody that for the last two and half years, they've been backing up every single e-mail," Dowell said. "If some attorney is looking at my attorney-client e-mails, there are going to be some ethical problems."

If you are discussing work matters with an attorney, then that is work business. I would grant that possibly some things may be private, but mostly they won't be.

If you are discussing personal legal matters with a private attorney via work email you are stupid. It is a work resource and most places force you to acknowledge your loss of privacy when using their resources.

Get a freaking gmail, hotmail, ISP account or whatever and keep your personal business person. Bonus is that when you leave your job, you don't have to beg to bring you email and contacts with you. You also don't have to worry about calling the IT guy biatching about why your emails to your wife are not going out, forcing us to do a search for your urgent messages inquiring as to the quantity of wetness of your wife's panties.

All I can say is I hope their search for quick justice doesn't cost us something far more valuable in the long run.
Because the method they intend to employ is one these guys would certainly approve of.



Being that the nature of the internet means your data is always in someone elses hands. Setting a precident that anyone who happens to have a copy can be enlisted to snitch on you is a habit that could certainly hamper the growth of this system.

Sarrah Barracuda: Like it or not, Sheriff Joe is completely in the right here.

The emails from his office belong to him, and not some government hack on a fishing expedition.

Don't worry. If he's missing them, I'm sure he can get a copy.

It will be interesting to see how this one plays out, but I figure no matter what the judge decides this will be in the courts for a long time. It could set some new precedents as far as electronic communications go.

Also, I wonder how much storage 2 years' worth of email takes up.

JoGold: FTFA: "They never once told anybody that for the last two and half years, they've been backing up every single e-mail," Dowell said. "If some attorney is looking at my attorney-client e-mails, there are going to be some ethical problems."

Bwahahahaha!

This guy actually believes that plain text email sent over the internet is private?

Hey Matlock, Would you expect privacy and confidentially if you sent attorney-client privileged communication via postcard? Regular, unencrypted email is just that, a message written in clear text sent from point A to point B handled by an unknown number of persons along the way, any of which could look at or keep an archival copy of what you wrote.

Unless you take steps to keep your email private, it isn't, and you should not reasonably expect otherwise.

Encryption FTW!

When one used encryption, it acts like an envelope for your message, keeping it private from casual inspection by those that handle it along its journey. Records can still be kept of person X sent a message to person Y at such and such date at so and so time. Heck the message can be archived, but without the decryption key passphrase, it's unreadable. Of course, once a judge orders you to hand over the key passphrase so that the email can be used as evidence, you are Borked.

It doesn't farking matter if they encrypt it or not. The emails belong to the county as it used their servers for delivery/storage. People need to learn that once you send an email, you do not own it anymore.

Goddamitsomuch people are ignorant. If you don't want anyone but you, Ed Begly Jr and God to know about it - then don't put it in an email or on your damn Facebook page.

At least in this particular case, it's likely the technological ineptitude of the Sherrif's department is going to cause them to come down with a serious case of just deserts.

JoGold:

Unless you take steps to keep your email private, it isn't, and you should not reasonably expect otherwise.

Encryption FTW!

When one used encryption, it acts like an envelope for your message, keeping it private from casual inspection by those that handle it along its journey. Records can still be kept of person X sent a message to person Y at such and such date at so and so time. Heck the message can be archived, but without the decryption key passphrase, it's unreadable. Of course, once a judge orders you to hand over the key passphrase so that the email can be used as evidence, you are Borked.

Eh, most big mail exchanger use TLS now. Once a TLS session kicks off there is no point in the transaction where email is in clear text on the internet. New internal servers also use encrypted sessions to communicate. So from that standpoint, the message is in an envelope, its just taken out by the secretary (mailbox server) when it gets to you.

Sarrah Barracuda: Like it or not, Sheriff Joe is completely in the right here.

The emails from his office belong to him, and not some government hack on a fishing expedition.

Actually, they don't. They are written communications to/from government officials. They are, therefore, public record.

/Works for government contractor in Arizona.
//Been warned about this numerous times.

"They never once told anybody that for the last two and half years, they've been backing up every single e-mail," Dowell said. "If some attorney is looking at my attorney-client e-mails, there are going to be some ethical problems."

Hey isn't that the very issue that one of his sheriffs had to go to jail over? The guy TOOK some documents from a defense attorney in the courtroom. Joe stood behind that guy, now he says this? Wooow.

"If some attorney is looking at my attorney-client e-mails, there are going to be some ethical problems."

There already appear to be . . . for your clients.

These two quotes from the article are interesting, though:

...its e-mails had been archived since August 2008, following an order by another attorney for the county ...

and

...e-mail from all county departments except the County Attorney's Office and the libraries are archived in the same manner.

So the county attorney's office ordered everybody's email to be archived . . . EXCEPT their own? Sauce for the goose, gentlemen.

stucka: "This may depend on other details of Arizona law. In some states, the sheriff is a constitutional officer not directly under the control of anyone. He may be his own boss.

More uninformed guessing: That said, I don't know if a judge would order the destruction of e-mails being used in at least three cases, though I suspect it'd be a lower bar to prohibit further e-mails from being archived. And I don't know what power is in this: "its e-mails had been archived since August 2008, following an order by another attorney for the county in an unrelated lawsuit involving county officials."

And of course we don't know if a state judge would have the power to destroy records already in the hands of a federal grand jury -- there may be a backup to the backup.

The federal grand jury angle sounds awful interesting to me."

Replies, kick out of them, IT for police department yadda yadda...

I'm very curious to see how this plays out. My guess is going to be that the judge decides in favor of the town/city/Feds due to similar rulings in the past. Emails which Sheriff Dickbrain and his officers sent and received while on the job and using city/town owned systems are not his "property" but that of the town, which means they have the ability to view, store, etc to their heart's content. However, if he had been sending and receiving emails via gmail or something of the like, at least according to Law.com, he would have a reasonable expectation of privacy (except, of course, for any information or portions of emails stored in temporary internet files).

Personally, I archive all phone and radio transmissions for 5 years, even though we're required by law to only store radio and phone for 1 year. Emails we archive... Ye gods, I've been here nearly 8 years, and I think that most of my users, since I moved everyone to IMAP, we can go back that far. It makes sense to do that IMO (unless, of course, you're up to illegal shiat like this mook is...).

Is it wrong that my inner 12-year-old laughed at this particular subhead in the article?

"Special investigator takes up Bar probe of Thomas"

hehe. Bar probe.

wingnut396
Eh, most big mail exchanger use TLS now. Once a TLS session kicks off there is no point in the transaction where email is in clear text on the internet.
So from that standpoint, the message is in an envelope, its just taken out by the secretary (mailbox server) when it gets to you.

Wouldn't that only be encryption between two mail servers?
So e.g. a random router between two servers couldn't read the plain text, but you would still have to trust each relaying server (all secretaries and post offices involved).

As much as I would like to see this assclown skewered, I have a feeling he will escape any serious punishment. He may belong to or have ties to a network that defends/deflects any misconduct. How many other abusers of the law have seen any type of come-uppance in the past?