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(CNN)   Public schools are failing because they're full of rude asshat kids raised by lazy asshat parents   ( divider line
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6037 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Apr 2003 at 10:42 AM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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2003-04-23 01:00:59 PM  

My point was an extremely general one about the importance of some negative stimuli as developmental factors. The answer to your question could only be yes if I assumed there were no other factors in the equation. Which obviously I do not.
2003-04-23 01:01:17 PM  
Tigger ~ we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I just really don't see the benefit of negative school experiences. Kids will hit opposition throughout their lives in places other than the schools and will have to deal with it. Bad social experiences at schools just teach you to hate school and hence hate learning.
2003-04-23 01:01:47 PM  
Really? Kids are rude? Parents don't care? Teachers are overwhelmed?


This is exactly why I decided not to go into the educational field.
2003-04-23 01:03:04 PM  
Got into a argument with my wife's brother a few weeks ago regarding parent/child/teacher responsibilities...

It's hard for me to take seriously the opinion of a woman who justified her job choice as a teacher because she "gets summers off."

She's been a teacher for about 3 minutes and she's already got the "lazy parents" rhetoric down pat.
2003-04-23 01:03:04 PM  

To put it more succinctly.

If A is a causative factor to B. Not A is not necessarily a causative factor to Not B
2003-04-23 01:03:48 PM  
And for what its worth, this discussion has been fun...another few minutes closer to 5! Woo hoo
2003-04-23 01:03:49 PM  
The people marketing childrens' products don't exactly help things. Has anyone seen these things? They all go with the gimmick that adults are complete idiots who should be punished for stopping children from doing whatever they want.
2003-04-23 01:03:57 PM  
Every single person here seems to forget that the teachers are dealing with parents from the same generation. They are ALL IDIOTS. I am 23, when I was in 7th grade i got a detention in typing class because I was more comfortable typing with the book on the left side on the keyboard instead of the right side, which was the way everyone was forced to. (teachers great way to promote dyslexia) So she asks me to put the book on the other side, I say no, that I am more comfortable this way. So I get a detention handed to me even though I did my work. So I handed it back to the teacher and got suspended. And all you people biatching about parents yelling at school officials can suck an egg. My mom went up there and protested the suspension only to be told by the head administrator that her son was offending gods principles by not obeying orders..... see what some parents have to deal with. Waacked out public schools, with even wackier teachers and admins..... and on top of that all... 90% of the parents are stupid.

2003-04-23 01:05:45 PM  
What about the fact that schools are desperately underfunded and over crowded, with no hope of budget increases in sight?
2003-04-23 01:06:22 PM  
Etihod ~ It's great that you had parents that were understanding and could help you through it.. so did I (classic outsider geek). But I don't think I'm a better person for it.
2003-04-23 01:07:16 PM  
I'll tell you this: Public schools DO blow, but this all begins at home. My dad went to a boarding school. I went to the same one. I was joyous to do it. But I knew, deep in my heart, that if I stepped out of line, my father would have beaten me until I was retarded. Even though I'm bigger, stronger, faster, and smarter than he is. I KNEW this instinctively. I have respect and some modicum of fear for dad. But the thing is, he was no authoritarian. He asked me about academics and extra curricular activities, he flew up and watched important games and events, etc., he discussed issues I was learnign with me. Brought mom too. I am fine now. He RAISED me and was not azy about it... Yeah, I got into trouble just like everyone else does, but I paid the price. I am sending my daughter to the same school when she is a sophomore (like 2015). But anyway, shell know as I did: If the Headmaster calls me, the gloves are off and the pain begins. I love my father.
2003-04-23 01:08:27 PM  

I like public schools and know they do a pretty good job overall. We wouldn't be the greatest nation in the world if they weren't. Of course improvement is always needed. I just don't believe the institution is broke, just abused by the politicians.

The success of the nation's current leaders, and the success of the overall nation, has nothing to do with how public schools operate today. Most leaders are in their mid 40's and up, meaning they graduated high school sometime in the 1970's.

Public schools have steadily gone downhill. If the institution isn't broken yet, it soon will be.
2003-04-23 01:08:32 PM  
Well what kind of person do you want your child to become? The kind that avoids things out of fear? Someone who obeys those who intimidate them? I rather have a child who doesn't do bad things because she learns about consequences and because she understands them to be wrong. Not "they are wrong because if I do so-and-so I get beaten" but the actual reason why it is wrong to behave in certain ways.

I think that once you raise your hand on anyone, whether it be your partner, mom, neighbor, or your child, that's a sign that you lost control.
2003-04-23 01:08:43 PM  
Let me toss an idea out for discussion, then I'll return to lurking.

Kids need motivation to stay in school and do well. Since the motivation isn't coming from their parents, maybe mandatory military service for anyone who can't or won't graduate High School with at least a B average will do it(lord knows, 4 years in the Army would have done me wonders). And ABSOLUTELY NO SPORTS OR OTHER EXTRACURRICULAR ACTIVITIES for anyone who can't maintain a B average. Let the parents cry and whine about THAT all they want. Maybe THEN they'll start driving their kids a little harder.
2003-04-23 01:08:44 PM  
My point was an extremely general one about the importance of some negative stimuli as developmental factors.

What about the effects of negative reinforcement on ESP ability?
2003-04-23 01:10:18 PM  
40 Dog: Heh. We haven't encountered the cussing phase yet. The girls are pretty good about not repeating what they hear, as we have instructed.

In our house, lying is one of the worst things you can do. Because if you aren't honest with others, how can you be honest with yourself. It's one of those things of taking responsbiliy for yourself and your actions. Especially if one of my daughters were to lie after getting caught doing something and not fess up to it. I tell her that no one wants to listen to a dirty mouth that spouts lies. I explain that she will get the bar of soap in the mouth when she lies so maybe next time she will admit what she's done wrong and not lie about it. I tell her the punishment for lying is far greater at times than actually taking the consequences after admitting what you've done wrong to start with.

When people stop taking responsibility for their actions and lie to themselves and each other, that's when problems happen. You hurt those around you as well as yourself because no one can trust you or don't feel that you are responsible.
2003-04-23 01:11:38 PM  
SmallTownGirl - Cool, maybe we passed each other in the library or something *grin*. I dunno, I am a pretty outgoing and confident guy at my age now. A few years into college and I realized that junior high and high school didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. However, whenever I go home and see all of the people who were good looking and popular and didn't have to take crap every day: I see beer guts, rusted out cars, DUI convictions, college dropouts and numerous pregnancies. Thats why I kinda think I'm a better person for it. It taught me that not everything is going to be handed to me and that I need to exert effort to get what I want.
2003-04-23 01:12:03 PM  
Jefe_gonzo -
"The problem lies in parents' refusal to impart any sense of right and wrong in their children. Rather, it's a task left up to the television."

Exactly, but the problem is the parents are ALSO being raised and influenced by television (see Bush's approval rating). How many idiots have you heard repeat the president's statement about this being a war of 'good' vs. 'evil' without having a supporting argument? Parents aren't refusing to teach their children right from wrong, they just don't KNOW right from wrong until it's pointed out to them.
2003-04-23 01:13:33 PM  
There is WAY too much focus on drug use and not enough on simple things like being polite

Dont forget what Robert Heinlein said. (paraphrase) For any culture in which public politness is on the decline, the culture itself is on the decline. (He also said the same thing about public bathrooms.)
2003-04-23 01:14:06 PM  
Everyone has a lot of great ideas for how to improve education. Too bad so many are still convinced that elected officials have any incentive whatsoever to implement these improvements. The greatest fraud ever inflicted on the American populace by the government was convincing us that education is a service we can't provide for ourselves.
2003-04-23 01:14:09 PM  
Cola ~ I think it depends on the age of the child in question. My parent's stopped spanking at 8. Not quite sure where they got that number, but to them that was when I was old enough that spanking would be emotionally damaging.. so they switched to grounding. But, though my Dad never laid another hand me.. I had a healthy amount of fear that stopped me from doing anything too dumb. Now.. I think 8 is too old. I'm talking 1 - ~4 years old. At that age you can't have much of a conversation on right and wrong with a child and if they are doing something dangerous (like my example of the 2 year old tripping his mom while she was cooking) you need to get through to them quickly that it is wrong. Swift spank does that nicely. We're not talking smacking a kid across the face or something, we're talking flat hand onto bottom (which is nicely padded and even more so when still in diapers). Doesn't really hurt some much as shocks and they learn very quickly not to trip mom near the stove.. or touch something hot or pull the tv on their head.
2003-04-23 01:14:33 PM  

if situation A (getting you lunch money taken), is a great part of b (being a good person)

then not A(not getting your lunch money taken), would be more likley to result in not B (not being a good person).

if this is not the case, and B is just as likley in both instances, then A has no influence on B. But you stated that A has a great deal to do with B.

this is different then "if A then B" so "not A not B" which i relize is a logical falacy.
2003-04-23 01:16:15 PM  
Cola -- Spanking between consenting adults is still okay, right? :)
2003-04-23 01:16:20 PM  

We'll agree to disagree. But agree on sorting out the farking schools in the first place.
2003-04-23 01:16:31 PM  
Actually.. breeding/parenting licenses would be a good idea. You need a license to have a pet, drive a car, get married, etc, but to breed you just need broken condom and bad luck. If anything would cull the herd some, it would be this :P
2003-04-23 01:19:13 PM  
Some of the biggest myths floating around out there:

If it wasn't for US Postal Service, the mail wouldn't be delivered.

If it wasn't for FDA, everyone would get poisoned by the foods they purchased at the grocery and at restaurants.

If it wasn't for the DEA, everyone would be addicted to drugs.

And the big one: If it wasn't for the Dept of Education, we wouldn't have schools.
2003-04-23 01:19:53 PM  
You bribe and revoke the freedoms of your girlfriend. Its nice that you and your family respect each other. Hopefully the rest of your family treats their friends/girlfriends better than you do.
2003-04-23 01:20:14 PM  
Etihod ~ That is a sweet thing isn't it? Most of the popular girls were knocked up right out of high school. But I would trade my well developed sense of irony to not have had to put up with them in the first place. There were many a crying sessions in the bathroom in grade school and I hated every single day of it. Didn't teach me to try any harder though (school was easy for me.. hence the geek part). I can't think of a single good thing that came out of that. I fact, the only thing that came out of it was me trying to fit in, throwing a large party in highschool.. having the police called out and my mines jewelry stolen, get a misdeemer for disorderly conduct and being grounded my entrei senior year. The grounding was the best.. once my folks got me away from my "friends" I straightened up pretty good.
2003-04-23 01:21:25 PM  
schools have corrupt administrations and waste tons of tax dollars, they will cut money to the kids far far far before cutting any administration. Lots of political type scumbags make loads of cash off of "educating the children"
On the other hand parents get home from work flop down in front of the tv and do little else.

The KCMO school district just announced a plan to increase the graduation rate by lowering their standards. Seriously...
2003-04-23 01:21:50 PM  
"Too bad so many are still convinced that elected officials have any incentive whatsoever to implement these improvements. The greatest fraud ever inflicted on the American populace by the government was convincing us that education is a service we can't provide for ourselves."

DoubleGGuy: I'm not sure I entirely understand what you are saying. I get the part about the elected officials...unless you figure out a way to have schools generate physical campaign dollars then no, they have no incentive. But are you saying that all government school institutions are bad? Say federal laws about school didn't exist. Upper class kids would go to private schools. Middle class kids would too, only cheaper ones. What would lower class kids do? Probably what they did before sending you kids to school became a law: They'd either work on dad's farm or go to the factories or something equally terrible. I think that as warped as it is, we need some government regulation. This all just occurred to me so feel free to tear it apart.
2003-04-23 01:22:02 PM  

You are shifting between discussing causative factors and components of a category. I never once mentioned being a good person.

My point is that the negative experiences we have at school are important in our learning to be socially functional human beings, because we realise what it is like to be hurt and choose not to hurt others. (Massive oversimplication)
2003-04-23 01:22:46 PM  
Tigger ~ Oh, they need to be fixed.. I'm not turning my back on that. I just don't see a need to put my kids through that while we try and figure out how to fix them. Heck, I don't have to have my kids in the school to be on the board.
2003-04-23 01:22:50 PM  
Lartrak -
"What about the fact that schools are desperately underfunded and over crowded, with no hope of budget increases in sight?"

Shhh. Don't bring that up. There's a multi-BILLION DOLLAR war going on to 'free' Iraqs indigenous people from themselves, while my daughter's class is forced to share textbooks.
2003-04-23 01:22:59 PM  
Morden2261, yeah I'd say that's the only time I agree with it.
2003-04-23 01:23:31 PM  
04-23-03 11:19:23 AM Bitterman
Yeah, I know.... I keep trying to get her to come around....

Hey, anybody hear of this "Time Out" thing where you put your kid in the corner a minute for each year of their age? What a friggin' joke. She's got a 3 year old, who oddly enough is more mature than the 6 year old. Hell, they can hold their breath for more than 6 minutes, and it is just a joke to them.

My husband and I were babysitting my 4 year old nephew for a weekend. The day we needed to leave, he was whining and throwing a fit about getting dressed. Hes always in time out, cause it means nothing to him. so my husband looked him in the eye, said "if you make me miss my plane, I'm putting you in time out till you are 18. Go get dressed.". Kid looked back at him, said nothing, and put his clothes on. I couldnt stop laughing about it all day.
2003-04-23 01:23:39 PM  
Wheatweasel - I agree there, here in Des Moines one of the High School principals was out doing things like getting his drycleaning done and playing golf on the school's time and money.
2003-04-23 01:23:53 PM  
Every time I see some kid being a disrespectful shiathead and their parent either ignoring or encouraging I am more and more convinced that parents should have to have a liscence to have children. Give them a farking test, make them take a class, something. Our social order used to be set up so that future parents would learn how to rear a child by observing other parents in their community. Now they have no farking clue what to do... and lkook what we got now
2003-04-23 01:25:40 PM  
DROx -

Completely agree with you. This unfortunately reveals a larger problem - a society of ignorant, amoral (not immoral), witless, smartassed drooling clods where like begets like and they run into one another's cars without leaving notes and peeing in yards before marathons. Aaargh.

There's a BIG part of me who hopes that the trend of criminalizing corporal punishment dies out in the years to come.

2003-04-23 01:25:57 PM  
Code_archeologist ~ Doesn't that kinda assume the kids are planned? Would this licensing system force birthcontrol until you pass the test? Then, do you have to retake it for each kid?
2003-04-23 01:26:39 PM  
SmallTownGirl - You're whole senior year? Wow. See, further proof that your parents gave a crap. Its too bad your school experience sucked. So do you wish you had been home schooled? Would your parents have made good teachers?
2003-04-23 01:26:41 PM  
ColaWhile I agree that you should explain why some activity is wrong, young children really have a hard time understanding what you are saying and the long term consequences.

In fact, just explaining why they shouldn't mash the mac and cheese in their hair is over their head.
2003-04-23 01:29:00 PM  
The same sister-in-law got into an argument with her 8 year-old son (which is stupid to being with). He threatened her with moving to my house. She came back with "You wouldn't last 10 minutes at your uncle's house."

They both know the deal.
2003-04-23 01:29:21 PM  
Oh boy, a lot of twentysomething curmudgeons in this thread. "I can't believe what kids of today get away with! No respect for their elders."

"People need to beat their kids more often. My dad beat the sh*t out of me, and look how I turned out! A self-obsessed moron whining on a message board! But at least I didn't say the 'F word' in front of my dad!"

Your argument is older and dumber than dirt. The world will survive even if 6 year olds curse, can you believe that? Now go back to nitpicking about grammar and spelling!
2003-04-23 01:32:16 PM  
...and full of immature, rude, piss-poor teachers who don't really give a rat's patootie.
2003-04-23 01:33:18 PM  
God, I'm so sick of hearing about how well behaved and more polite private school kids are in comparison to public school kids. I went to public schools my whole life, but attended both Andover and Exeter academy in the summer, and found those students to be just as incredibly rude as the ones I dealt with at public school. Even now in college, most of my classmates are from private schools and I see absolutely no difference between them and my public school friends who went on to college.

I handle student conduct at a college with a large percentage of private school students and yes, they are much bigger asshats. They are rude, privleged, feel entitled and their parents are even worse. UGH


BTW, has anyone seen Hillary Duff? I was shocked to find out that she was fifteen.

OMFG, 15, I am going to hell.
2003-04-23 01:33:41 PM  
Im a surprised that there are so many parents here who have such apparently adversarial relationships w/their kids. I'm not making a judgement call here...after all, if there is no permanent damage and the little tykes still know they're loved, spankings aren't necessarily uncalled for. There is, however, a subtle but significant difference between fear and respect. I'm just glad we've been able to instill respect in our daughter with stern words and the occasional whack on the bottom without causing her to be in constant fear.

/proud dad
2003-04-23 01:34:33 PM  
Forced birth control/sterilization for those not fit to breed is how it would have to work, and the christian right would have a heart attack because of it. You would have to renew it every few years, and to get it intially you'd need to go though a few classes to learn to parent, and to prove you are smart/mature enough to be a parent.

Would almost have to invent a new form of birth control/hormone control, one that could be implanted at birth and last for a lifetime that would destroy reproductive cells. But you could turn the system off somehow with wearing a watch that emits a certain magnetic wave :P
2003-04-23 01:36:52 PM  

The parental licensing thing :P
2003-04-23 01:37:09 PM  
Forced birth control/sterilization for those not fit to breed is how it would have to work, and the christian right would have a heart attack because of it.

Call it political intuition but I'm guessing that the left/ACLU etctera may also have a teensy problem with it...
2003-04-23 01:37:34 PM  
Etihod ~ With hindsight being 20/20.. I was a very motivated student and loved learning (used to read encyclopedias and dictionaries just to learn more stuff). I think being able to work at my own pace would have been very beneficial as my pace was roughly 100x faster than the schools taught. I was bored stiff most of the time. My mother is a teacher.. so we would have been fine through gradschool (though highschool math and science would be pushing it for them).. but I've always taught myself anyway. Read ahead in class all the time (even did that in college). With both parents working I don't think it would have been an option for me though. I wish they would have let me skip 5th grade (the school wanted me to), which would have removed me from most of the kids I had trouble with, and let me apply for college after my 2nd year at highschool (had the oppotunity to do that as well.. the college gave you the test for the GED and you started college after 2 years of highschool). They were concerned about bwing put into situation before I was ready. I can see it from their side, but I would have loved the chance.
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