Nordburg -

Good thing we don't have thought police, or I'd be cooling my heels in a federal prison for some of those mental "notes."

Our marching Band was so small, if I quit playing they would have probably shut down the Marching Band program, i was the entire drumline, and pretty much what held the crap together

I grew up in the South. I don't live there anymore but we were always taught all the rules of good behavior (yes ma'am- no ma'am, respect elders, chivalry towards women, etc.) Now I don't know if it was a sign of the times (late 70s early 80s- not THAT long ago) but we were well behaved. Then I moved to the North. Holy cow it was the exact opposite. I thought it was the rudest place on earth. I had never heard such poor manners in my life.
I live in the West now so I have no idea what it's like in the South anymore. I'm cool with the North now, but I'm curious: Does anyone else think the South is a more polite place?

I really think we should go back to allowing teachers to discipline children appropriately. I agree 100% that parents need to take responsibility, but man, nothing scared the shiat out of me more than the thought of Mrs. Haberfield spanking me with a wooden paddle (with holes drilled through it).... man what a battle-axe. BUT: She kept me in line.....

Crap, I need sleep. Ignore those rampant spelling errors in my last post...

/sleep deprived Columbian

The biggest problem in schools has nothing to do with parents or kids. The biggest need is to redefine the teacher's role in providing quality education for their students.

Schools must change or become obsolete, and this change requires a radical rethinking of old rules, roles, and relationships. If they don't change, public education could be lost to a voucher system and the increased need for people to have adaptive skills to be successful in an information based economy wil make us a third world country in twenty years.

In a society where the ability to work with information and knowledge is the key to employability in well-paying jobs and essential to effective citizenship, it is no longer enough to have a relative few who are well educated. Today, most must be well educated.

The aim of schooling should be engaging students in work that results in their learning what they need to learn to be viewed as well educated in American society. If schools are looked at as a business, then students are the primary customers.

Viewing students as a customer places the school in the position of accepting the proposition that the school's obligation is to invent work sufficiently attractive that the students engage in it voluntarily. Coercion of students may gain compliance, but it does not produce engagement and commitment from them.

It is the obligation of the school and the teacher to invent work that attracts the attention and compels the energy of students. Schools should be inventing products that customers will buy that a customer- focused business creates the conditions of its own survival.

Our schools currently function primarily to select and sort students on the basis of their willingness and ability to do particular forms of schoolwork. We should view the business of schools as designing activities that students find engaging and from which they learn things that are of social and cultural value.

Organizing staff development around improving the quality of work we give students rather than improving the teachers performance in the classroom changes the whole dynamic.

When the focus is on improving the experiences of students, staff development then takes on a very different character. It is an ongoing invention rather than a canned program, and it is collaborative because teachers and principals need to consider together how they can improve the quality of the work they give students and what the teachers and principals need to learn in order to do that.

Teachers should be viewed as leaders of knowledge workers and inventors rather than as performers. It is commonplace to think of the teacher as a performer or a service delivery professional. We even have teacher performance appraisal systems. Such systems assume the most important things that occur in the classroom are those things the teacher does.

The teachers performance is important, but student performance is more important. Rather than performing for the students, the job of the teacher is to get the student to perform. Teachers are leaders. They perform in order to get others to perform. They are not actors who perform in order to be appreciated.

All of this proceeds from the observation that what teachers are trying to do is engage students in working on knowledge, rather than having students passively absorb knowledge. The idea that learning is an active process, requiring one to use knowledge toward some end rather than simply absorb knowledge, is certainly not a new one.

Because students intellectual activity should be the focus of the school, teachers need to become skilled in inventing work that will engage students. Put simply, students do not learn from work they do not do.

We must remember, however, that engagement is not all there is to it. Good school work is engaging school work, but not all engaging school work is good school work. Good school work is sufficiently compelling that students persist with it when they have difficulty, and they find satisfaction in it when it is done. Moreover, the effort expended results in students learning those things their parents, the larger community, and the society at large believe should be learned.

Perhaps the most important understanding here is that students are volunteers, whether we want them to be or not. Their attendance can be commanded, but their attention must be earned. Their compliance can be insisted on, but their commitment is under their own control.

I would argue, by the way, that we already have evidence that when teachers act on the assumption that students are volunteers, they find themselves liberated in ways they might not before have thought possible. We can learn a great deal from watching teachers in summer school and in after-school programs where teachers know they must earn the students attention rather than assume that attention is owed. I have seen teachers who are prone to confuse rigor with rigor mortis during the regular school day become creative and imaginative in an after-school or summer school program, precisely because they came to view the student in these programs as volunteers, and they came to view themselves as leaders and inventors. This is what we need all day, every day in every classroom.

My boyfriend's older sister has a two-year-old daughter. That kid is the friendliest, most well-behaved kid I have EVER met. Usually I can't stand kids, but I actually (gasp!) enjoy being in this little girl's company. The reason for this, I've deduced, is that her parents have no problems whatsoever yelling "Samantha, KNOCK IT OFF!" when she's doing something she shouldn't be. They don't hold back with the decibel level. Tough love works, people.

My own sister has a daughter as well. She's four years old--twice Samantha's age. I respect my sister as a person, but the truth is, she just doesn't give a shiat about being a good parent, and it shows. She never disciplines her daughter or says no to her. As a result, that kid is the most disobedient, hellish child I've ever met. I can't stand being near her for even five minutes.

/rant

Krugar,

I think life may be more like changing before gym, where everybody makes fun of you because you are a pasty, chicken-chested nothing with a penis the size of an acorn. Isn't that what life is like?

/hoping it's not just my life...

From a personnal perspective, I have to agree with that artivle. I was a rude kid and my parents where lazy (even today, they can't remember the name of any of the schools I went to) and the schools wouldn't kick out any of the psycho kids (Gangsters,druggies etc etc) out of school.

I'm just lucky I have some street smarts and I'm making it (knock on wood) through life just fine. It would have been alot easier if the above wasn't the case in my childhood.

04-23-03 11:20:19 AM GEAH
I'll take standardized test that force you to learn that 2+2=4, rather than touchy/feely teaching that is satisfied if you feel good if you think 2+2=5.


Damn skippy. We had to show our work on a seperate sheet. If the teacher couldn't see that we didn't solve the problems on our own we'd get the answer wrong even if it was right.

Arock: From the southerners I've met, absolutely.

I also blame childrens' cartoons. Some of them are completely psychotic! Teletubbies, Pokemon, Spongebob, etc. They are 30 minute doses of insansity.

Good child entertainment are shows like Mr.Rodgers(RIP. I grew up watching the show :[ ,) and Sesame Street. Children should be forced to watch these two shows atleast acouple of times a week. :P

California is a one-party state (Democrats OWN every statewide office and both legislative bodies), and the schools are among the worst in the country. LA Unified schools (run by liberals) have more in common with prisons than schools.

Anyone blaming the schools on the right are full of bullfark.

Thought police eh? If that was the case, you'd see me here

The way I see it -
Private school kids know how to kiss ass and get what they want. With their peers they are complete animals. Witness priveledged frat boys commiting theft, rape, and all alcohol-related offenses, and still becoming successful in life.

Public school kids know that the prospects are more limited, so it comes down to a choice between giving up and not caring, or working like a dog and hoping for a chance.

IamGod2u: Amen!

on the bright side, think of all the funny (read: murder, mayhem, meth-fueled assaults, jailarily ensues, etc.) articles we'll be reading about these high skool idiots, their worthless families and similar ilk in about three or four years; headlines galore!

On a similar note, here's a nice rant from a co-worker regarding sterilizing babydaddies.

ProgeriaKid,
Are you asian by chance?

WTF is up w/ the novel IamGod2u?

Rogue7- Than you.

Here's the ever-elusive URL:



right here

Albert

Good luck with that $50 a paycheck. Maybe that will get your kid's foot into private school.

C'mon, Dubya, "SHOW ME THE VOUCHERS"

I had private school for every year in school expect middle school (6-10th grade)

I gotta tell you its a joke. The one thing I discovered was that the majority of people (at least in my school) that are in attendence aren't because of the parents trying to get a better education or enviroment, it because thier kids F'ed up somewhere else and no public school will accept them or they want to teach thier kids dicispline.

So.. combine bad image students with a school that they treat as a jail sentence and you almost get worse behaved students.

Also.. funding for private school is nonexsistanct (duh) and they seem to get around a lot of state regulated loopholes.. like certifying teachers!!! My education in a private school was seriously lacking of those in public schools and later after I graduated my school came under investigation that thier teacher weren't certified.

WTG.. for a while I didn't even know if my high school diplomia was legit.

Nordburg- Sorry, I should have just written something like... "Yeah, beat kids up. Then they do much better in public schools."

Education in this country sucks. The notion that you place children in a building for around 8 hours a day, 180 days a year, for about 13 years, and then educated, "delicious, golden brown" members of society come out is awful. That is far too inflexible, and no good culture/community comes out of it. People compartmentalize and view learning as something you do in that building or marginally when doing homework. Any possibility of excitement in discovery, enjoyment of art, interest in history etc. is squashed out by bureaucracy, protocols, and standards.

Learning should be viewed much more holistically. As something you can do constantly. As something relevant to everyday life. And I blame parents, teachers and the system itself equally for these failings. I think that our current methods of education do not work well for most people for these reasons.

Oh, to my knowledge, most other "modern" countries aren't really doing much better.

I used to work at the local school corporation in the IT department. I would often have to visit all the schools in any given week and visit most classrooms while doing so. I've seen just about everything. One kid mouthed off to his teacher. He sounded more like a sailor than a 9 year old. The teacher did nothing. When I asked about it, she said that the father was ten times worse than the kid and it would be better to ignore him than send him to the front office and call his father in.

Also, I yanked my daughter out of the regular public schools around here and sent her to a charter school, which is also public. The kids there are holy terrors there as well. It's a daily battle with my daughter just to keep her in check and keep her from picking up all the bad habits of the other kids. Anytime there's a school function, the kids run rampant everywhere. Another child is trying to give a presentation, the kids are rude by yelling or talking and running around. But wonders never cease to amaze me where they get it. The same parents of those kids are also being rude by talking and not paying attention to what's going on. Even worse, when the kid acts up, they laugh and say it looks cute. There's been so many times I've just wanted to trip a kid running by and duct tape them to a chair... as well as their parents.

WsKne

Let's not even get into "grade-grubbing", which is a phenomenon I have seen only in private school kids.


In public schools, what you get it what you get. Shaddup and sit down.


In private schools, I guess since daddy's paying for teacher's salary and can take it away any time, better placate the wee ones.



Please, someone remember the taxpayers....

Malicoire_: Hell I have a MS in CS and I can't find a job man...I'll be working some Mcjob because there are no jobs...

On that note, I do have hope unlike those poor schulbs that only have a HS diploma. If you want a good read about what we SHOULD do check out:

Hedrick Smith Rethinking America

Or maybe it's right

here

/need more coffee

Thats much better there God. This is Fark, where the long posts are completly ignored.

"Private school kids know how to kiss ass and get what they want. With their peers they are complete animals."

Absolutely, they realize that different forms of behavior are appropriate depending on the circumstance. That is a good thing to know.

man, my HTML just ain't working this mornin

Bitterman, but im Liberating you!

See, i made up a benevolant political agenda to mask the fact that i just want to shoot people with water guns, much like the war in Iraq. See, so we call it the O.M.F. Operation Merokee Freedom, so you are being liberated!

And Yes I am an asshat, and the school let's me squeek by, but I ain't complaining because there is plenty of opportunity for the smart kids in AP classes, ect. And Nassau county has an excellent school system, i just never study and get my B. What's the difference really, im going to college, and a college and masters degree is all ya need really.

Gator8387

Of course people need to realize that different types of behavior are appropriate given a situation. But to those extremes?... It seems we get blanket rudeness with public school kids, and two-faced private school ones. Oh, where are the normal children...

Gator

You mean they learn how to get away with anything they want. That's a bit different than adapting to varied social situations.

...or make excuses when they get caught.

While it's apparently true that many parents tend to let their kids run wild, moreso than in previous generations, I have also seen a lowering of standards in the curricula and in the testing for teachers. Kids aren't being challenged enough and teachers aren't being taught as well. Some of the teachers my kids have had are "asshats"- snide people with no sense of what is or isn't proper to say in front of a class or to a child.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a father who automatically sides with his kids. On the contrary, I give the teachers the benefit of the doubt. My kids know this and I have had few problems between teachers and them throughout the years. But, like my father, when my kids are right, I don't look the other way.
Education is a partnership. Teachers, administration, parents and students. All have to work together.

I don't recall ever bringing home homework for my parents to do when I attended school. My kids have brought assignments for me to do over the years. "Take your child to this place and do this activity" sort of thing. As a swing shift worker, this was maddening. Made me wonder when my state check was going to come.
"Asshat parents and students"? Not entirely. And in NY, Governor Pataki is not helping matters any by cutting education budgets at all levels, including college, while preserving the huge special interests' pork. Asshat governor.
As for language, I have tried to teach my kids what's appropriate. My older son, a senior, uses an intelligent, clean vocabulary. My younger son, a freshman, swears like a sailor. No amount of soaping his mouth or grounding him seems to stop it. But he hears that language in many more places than I did when I was a kid- even in so-called legitimate media. And a substantial part of youth culture glorifies the worst behavior.
I believe that most parents are doing their best against conditions our parents didn't face. I'm a Liberal, but I think the "blame it on the parents" reaction is overdone.

Albert
$50 from every one of my paychecks goes into my kids private school fund. My wife and I don't have kids yet but we'll be prepared when we do.

What we did was instead of saving for private school we bought into a half decent neighbourhood where the average parent finished some sort post secondary education, that way the school would be a reflection of the community, also when you decide to sell your house you make a few bucks.
Mind you VA is one of the most expensive places to live in North America, A few years back we were thinking of moving to to VA. I remember I was looking at an average townhouse in a modest neighbourhood in Chantilly and they wanted $300,000 USD the only city I'd pay $300,000 or more for a house is NYC, at least you can get your groove on at anytime.

Phoxxy:The same parents of those kids are also being rude by talking and not paying attention to what's going on.

Too true. One of my jobs has me working in a manufacturing plant environment and you can't talk to these damn people without them rudely interupting.

What happened to the manners, people? (See my above post regarding misplaced societal value place on anti-social behavior of pop stars, musicians, and the host of Hardball)

Unicef ranked the USA 18th in the world as far as children's eduction is concerned, based on literacy of 14 and 15 year olds.

I was never disciplined as a child, at home or in school. My parents never even raised their voices at me.. and I was a pretty wild kid so that took some restraint from their side. I grew up fine though, I'm generally polite and well-behaved. I really don't think that beating a child will make it more loving and respectful (I'm not saying that my family's view on parenting is at all ideal though; I think kids need boundries).

Jeho: Uh.. I went to private school for 8 years (1 - 8 grade) and attended a public high school. The people who attended school there weren't misfits thrown out of other schools... not to say we didn't have our share of misfits per calls. Every school does.

I got a better education there than I would have in public school. By far. When I reached my freshman year of high school, I was ready for most classes given to juniors at the school.

400+ comments on this one, I'll bet...

I see both problems (worked in a school,have a kid, but I'm not a teacher)--parents who don't even know what the name of the school is, and parents who hover over their kids and control them so much that the kids go apeshiat when they get to school and away from the smothering parents. Then the parent shows up at the school because Junior is a "discipline problem." Repeat for 10 grades....

Joeflood: spanking (or similar degrading and/or painful punishment) is illegal where I live yet our children are no more out of control..

Cola, it is different with boys.

Generally a boy needs dad's belt to keep him in line (I sure did).

Good point Ouroborus, yet not too subtle in your approach.

Is our children learning?

I had the traditional understated but definite tellings-off from mum, backed up if necessary by the dreaded "Right, that's it, I'm telling your father!"

She rarely needed to tell us a second time, or actually follow up on the threat...

And I'm practically perfect in every way, so it clearly worked!

Gentlegiant621: You have a very valid point there. I was a total hellraiser while my older brother never ever even raised his voice to my parents, ever. And my parents are very good parents (if I may say so myself). They, like you, always gave the teachers the benefit of the doubt, which is EXTRAORDINARILY rare nowadays. Props to you =)