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19496 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Feb 2010 at 2:57 PM (6 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2010-02-28 05:52:51 PM  

olddinosaur: But that's not why I was there. In a science fiction convention, you take 4000 wall flowers, geeks and people who can't get a date with a net, stuff them all together in a hotel, add copious amounts of liquor---they find out for themselves in 5 minutes that they are the majority here, and the old social rules don't apply---and they just screw like bunny rabbits.


I went to Gencon Indy 08. It's not quite a science fiction convention, but it's close enough for jazz. While there was no blatant "screwing" going on, we also didn't run into tip-crazy staff. Everything seemed to be pretty standard, really.
 
2010-02-28 05:58:16 PM  

IonBeam2: Hz so good: I'll leave this here, and take it up front when you're ready, sir.

In case you were wondering: http://cityfile.gawker.com/507817/


Jeez, I thought the McCain campaign released a lunch receipt that the Palin family submitted...
 
2010-02-28 06:03:09 PM  

GreenAdder:
I went to Gencon Indy 08. It's not quite a science fiction convention, but it's close enough for jazz. While there was no blatant "screwing" going on, we also didn't run into tip-crazy staff. Everything seemed to be pretty standard, really.


In general, a printed-matter convention will be different from a Star-Trek, comic, gamer, role-play etc., convention; they tend to overlap. Quite a bit of hooking up goes on, but it is done quietly and discreetly, behind closed doors. People pay $1000+ for a ticket and a trip, they tend to want something more than just a hangover for memories; that applies universally to all tourists, and all tourist locales.

Worldcon 2010 will be in Australia, but Worldcon 2011 will be in Reno Nevada; site rotates west to central to eastern USA, unless some foreign country wins the bid.

Basic order of business is deciding where to hold the next party.
 
2010-02-28 06:04:04 PM  
For me, Fark tipping threads invariably fill me with disdain for servers rather than the understanding and sympathy they seem to want.

Historically, I've always been an excellent tipper; usually 20-30 at restaurants, 30-50 at the bar, depending on the tab. (I drink more, I tip more, natch.)

But the self-entitled whining from people who *expect* such tips? Who believe they are *entitled* to those tips? Yeah, pretty much makes me rethink the way I tip every time I read these threads.

I also think it's hilarious how they try to creep up the minimum "acceptable" tip each time it comes up, hoping they can successfully guilt the world into swallowing it. So 20 percent of the new socially acceptable minimum now? Really?

I'm sure I'll continue to tip exactly as I always have, because I like being good to people who are good to me -- the folks at my chosen tavern are exceptional -- but these threads inch me closer and closer to "fark the hell off" status every time they come up. You people do more harm than good to your cause with your entitlement complex-driven biatching.
 
2010-02-28 06:08:24 PM  

Airfoilsguy:
Because the service you provide for the customer should speak for itself, if you have to ask for a tip you are doing something wrong


You have a misunderstanding of reality in at least two ways:

1) there are laws that allow service workers to be paid a fraction of the minimum wage with the expectation they will make it up in "tips". Given that this expectation is the framework for an exception in law (and the IRS holds the expectation so they assume a certain percentage of register as 'tips' unless the service person proves otherwise) it must be considered more than reasonable to expected a tip out of everyone that sits down at your table.

2) 99% people tip, it is a reasonable assumption that you will tip. Sometimes it is expedient to ask if change is needed so that one can quickly get to other customers.
 
2010-02-28 06:09:33 PM  

olddinosaur: My question on Canadians was derived from the fact that Canadians are at least said to be notoriously bad tippers, at least by USA standards. I do not know if it is true.


If the statements in last weekend's tipping thread are any guide, "Canadian" is a codeword for "Nubian" in the restaurant business.
 
2010-02-28 06:12:29 PM  
Cool story bro:

I worked as a fry cook at a restaurant in college. One day a group of men came and spent about three hours eating and drinking. The bill was quite high (can't remember exact numbers) and took up a lot of the server's time. No tip. They were Muslim and it was her privilege as a women to serve them. She was quite upset.
 
2010-02-28 06:18:23 PM  
As a bartender I get a kick out of all these tip war threads. People get way too worked up over the "I don't tip because I don't feel the person opening the beer for mw did anything to earn it" comments. Even though there are a lot of internet tough guys that like to talk about how tipping is unnecessary, these people are far and few between in the real world. I learned very quickly that you can't let the occasional customer that doesn't tip get to you. I had a guy last night leave me $.85 tip on $44, but I also had a number of customers leave 30% to 40% that more than made up for it. It all works out in the end.

The one myth I would like to dispel is that we all do this because we are unskilled laborers and can't get a "real job". I work in a semi fine dining restaurant so I know this isn't true as a whole, but the majority of us work in the service industry do it because we love our jobs. Our servers have an incredible amount of food and wine knowledge (more than many chefs I have known) and better people skills than most salesmen I have ever met. At least half of them have 4 year degrees and a couple have owned there own successful restaurants in the past. I walked away from a very comfortable 9-5 job as the sales manager of a small audio/video company about 5 years ago to start bartending full time and haven't regretted it once. As far as tipping percentage goes, if some one sits at my bar, orders a $5 Stella, reads their paper, and then leaves me a buck; I am ok with that. I don't expect a huge tip from people just for showing up to work. I average 30% plus because I am passionate about what I do and it comes across in my work. I like interacting with my customers, talking about wine, cocktails, and anything else that they want to chat about. I love mixology, wine, beer, spirits, creating a unique bar program, and I get off on providing people with an experience they will remember and come back for. That is why a bartend.

/that is much longer than I originally intended it to be
 
2010-02-28 06:20:15 PM  
It's simple. Do your job well and I'll tip you. If you're busy working other tables I'll tip you too. If you're a cockslap and won't do your job then you won't get a tip. Plain and Simple.


Yes, if you're a hot guy or a college student I'll tip you more. I know, I'm bias...oh well.
 
2010-02-28 06:20:32 PM  

HectorSchwartz: I love how this thread gets recycled every few months. As usual, here's my 2 cents.

1. If you don't tip, please stay home. Seriously, I tip; the last thing I need is some pissed off flunky giving me poor service because they are stewing over your cheapness.
2. If you have a job that is considered a tipped position, don't biatch. You WILL get stiffed from time to time. It's happened to the best of us. It happened before you came along and it will happen long after you move on. Let it go and quit your biatching. Also, from time to time, look inward. Maybe they didn't tip because of something you did or said. Usually they are just cheap jerks, but sometimes, it's you.
3. I'll bet that half of the servers who are on here biatching don't tip housekeepers at hotels, taxi drivers, doormen or anybody else. I think your shortsightedness is part of the reason you never got a better job.
4. Bartenders that give away free drinks to big tippers are STEALING from the company. The customer is still paying for the drink, but they are now paying the bartender, not the bar. A few bars/restaurants allow it to happen, but the bartenders ring the drinks to a house check that enables the business to keep a proper inventory. Giving a freebie to your best guests is smart business if done correctly. Your bartender is part of the reason that a lot of your regulars are there in the first place.
5. If employees are recruited, hired and trained correctly, they understand that higher check average and good service lead to big tips. Especially the higher check average part. Servers should not just be nice, they should constantly suggestive sell. This is one of many reasons that tips will never go away in restaurants. Payroll tax is another, but that is a different discussion.
6. With #5 in mind, the restaurant should be tipping out the staff as well. Sell a pasta entrée (or some other cash cow item), get a dollar (pasta is damn near free where food cost is concerned). The same should go for upsells on liquor and wine. Change the game, keep your staff engaged and make the payout public. Friendly competition and peer pressure go a long way in motivating your staff. Happy servers = happy customers.
7. If the guy behind the bar tonight mentions this article, I'm giving him a twenty and a year sponsorship.

/oh, and the "I paid $5 for a beer, why should I tip" guy. DIAF. The bar has overhead, you don't. The reason you pay $5 for a beer is because you can't get hot chicks to come to your house. Google "hubbart formula." It's how many restaurants and hotels figure out menu prices / rates, etc. You basically start with desired profit and work the equation backwards to suggest a retail price that will allow you to achieve said profit. It's a lot harder to use in restaurants because you have to know your sales mix and contribution margin of each item, but it's a pretty bullet proof way of figuring out if your on the right track where pricing is concerned. (well, you don't have to google it now, but you should a least know what the hell you are talking about.)

/no spell check - did not proof. please be nice grammar nazis


You sound like you worked as a District Manager at the Applebee's I was a server at when I was 16.

Your points, while mostly valid, are still impure. Suggestive selling drives me farking crazy.
 
2010-02-28 06:20:47 PM  

Je5tEr: Well, its not my fault I like quality when I go out


Je5tEr: Hell the BEER I drink often costs more than an entrée in a diner.


LOL get bent you wannabe elitist prick.
 
2010-02-28 06:21:53 PM  

Good4u: Suggestive selling drives me farking crazy.


Don't ask me if you can "start me off" with some potato-bacon-bombs. If I want to order them, I will.
 
2010-02-28 06:22:11 PM  

LibertyHiller: olddinosaur: My question on Canadians was derived from the fact that Canadians are at least said to be notoriously bad tippers, at least by USA standards. I do not know if it is true.

If the statements in last weekend's tipping thread are any guide, "Canadian" is a codeword for "Nubian" in the restaurant business.


The commonest epithet I have heard is: "---The Queen Mary will tip easier than a Canuck."

Not my sentiment, so I do not know.
 
2010-02-28 06:30:39 PM  

GreenAdder: Don't ask me if you can "start me off" with some potato-bacon-bombs. If I want to order them, I will.


They're likely not given a choice.
 
2010-02-28 06:31:34 PM  

Thray: They're likely not given a choice.


I wasn't really referring to the waitstaff. Unfortunately they're given a whole "script" they have to go through. But hopefully the braindead beancounters will see this, and they'll know to knock that shiat off.
 
2010-02-28 06:32:06 PM  
"Just increase they're wazgez WARGRHLBBLB!!!"

That's brilliant. It's not like there's a competitive job market, structural unemployment, any of those kinds of things going on.

I believe it's been pointed out many times, it takes very little skill to actually be a waiter/server/whatever. If you make it too expensive to employ these people, they will simply get replaced by cheaper alternatives.

Simple solution: not so simple.
 
2010-02-28 06:32:33 PM  

GreenAdder: Don't ask me if you can "start me off" with some potato-bacon-bombs. If I want to order them, I will.


Question, do you do what your bosses tell you to do when you're working?
 
2010-02-28 06:34:40 PM  

GreenAdder: I wasn't really referring to the waitstaff. Unfortunately they're given a whole "script" they have to go through. But hopefully the braindead beancounters will see this, and they'll know to knock that shiat off.


Sadly, I guess it works statistically. I try to go out of my way to hit places that just let their staff be themselves though.
 
2010-02-28 06:36:34 PM  

Thray: Sadly, I guess it works statistically. I try to go out of my way to hit places that just let their staff be themselves though.


This is why I seem to eat at local places more often than chains. The local places aren't going to push unnecessary and unnatural appetizers on me. They're just going to tell me their specials, maybe, and then wait for me to decide.
 
2010-02-28 06:39:54 PM  
Even if the guy has a point, holy shiat what an ashole!
 
2010-02-28 06:45:01 PM  
The sushi bar by my house adds an 18% gratuity on all their tabs. I know this going in and I'm cool with it. The thing is, they kick ass and I would tip 20 or 25% if it wasn't their mandatory policy. As it is, I will slip the sushi chef 10 or 15 bucks in a sly "thank you" hand shake. Dude takes care of me with little freebees all the time. If your service sucks you get what I call an insult tip and I just don't go there again. There's a brazillion options out there for me to choose so fark the shiatty service.
 
2010-02-28 07:02:47 PM  
Tipping... a favored subject of mine...

I worked in the service industry for about the first 12 years after I graduated from high school.

I waited tables, was a chef and ultimately a bartender.

while I was actively in the biz, I was a heavy tipper. as I have been out longer and longer though I find myself getting more and more particular as to what rates 20%.

These days I start at 15% and then more up or down as the service differs from a " typical " experience. I am not a hard arse but I do expect you to actually work for your gratuity. If you "phone it in" and give me crappy service I'll leave you a crappy tip. If someone has pride in what they do and demonstrate they are trying hard to give good service I will reward that.

Seriously though if a server expects 20% for their service they need to be doing it better that the other guys...

back when I was a tender, if I had a regular that typically drank the same drink all the time, I usually had one made and picked their seat at the bar ... and the bars I worked at gave the bartenders discretion to buy drinks for the customer... I was good for one in 7 on the average. I gave excellent service and never demanded tips from anyone.
 
2010-02-28 07:14:49 PM  
Well...this is all humbling, considering I might be starting my next career move as a waitress next week!
 
2010-02-28 07:18:58 PM  
Ihopethisnamewillfi

You say diners in middle America couldn't compete paying their servers $10 an hour.

What if they made it clear that tipping was not expected, paid their waiters +, and adjusted the prices accordingly? (I have no idea if that would come out North or South of $10, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were more at many places -- average tips over an 8 hour shift would only need to be like $40-60 to get that (depending on what their base,non-tip pay was)).

A meal at the diner would be exactly the same as before, and you wouldn't be carrying on the bullshiat tipping tradition. This is not an elitism/class issue, it's just about whether you pay the servers directly, or you give your money to the restaurant to pay them through their paycheck. Most other service jobs in this country and in the world go with the second option. Food service and things like that are strange hold overs that don't.
 
2010-02-28 07:19:37 PM  

hoboglove: Well...this is all humbling, considering I might be starting my next career move as a waitress next week!


Strippers always get good tips.
 
2010-02-28 07:20:16 PM  
Ihopethisnamewillfi

Damn formatter thing. That was supposed to say:

What if they made it clear that tipping was not expected, and paid their waiters [original base pay an hour] + [average hourly tips]
 
2010-02-28 07:21:20 PM  

hoboglove: Well...this is all humbling, considering I might be starting my next career move as a waitress next week!


*clicks profile* There's always the pole....better tips

/just the tip I promise
 
2010-02-28 07:31:41 PM  

kreep: What if they made it clear that tipping was not expected, and paid their waiters [original base pay an hour] + [average hourly tips]


If that would make for a good business model, wouldn't you see more places doing it? I know a couple people that own businesses, one a bar and the other a diner and neither one are getting rich. Besides, no waitress is going to settle for a fixed wage with no tips unless that wage is about 20 bucks an hour.
 
2010-02-28 07:37:55 PM  

GimpyNip: LouDobbsAwaaaay: You'd never get away with this business model in any other context. "Yeah, we decided we aren't going to pay our cash-register people a living wage, so you're just going to have to duke them a few bucks every time you buy something to make up for it."

Really, ever heard a of a commision? What about general contract work? What about Real Estate Brokerage? What about incentive bounus? No other field?


Yeah but in those fields the % of the comission or whatever is set and built into the price. It's not like after the whole deal is complete the real estate agent turns up his palm and asks for a random open-ended donation.

A real estate agent can be sure she'll have a living wage if she makes $x in sales. A waitress cannot.
 
2010-02-28 07:42:31 PM  

keithgabryelski: 1) there are laws that allow service workers to be paid a fraction of the minimum wage with the expectation they will make it up in "tips".


And those laws are wrong and should be repealed. Tipping people more and more money is not the way to get them repealed. In fact, if anything, tipping more means that the 'fraction of minimum wage' that get paid is likely to grow smaller... after all, they make so much in tips...

2) 99% people tip, it is a reasonable assumption that you will tip.

If your friends all jumped off a bridge, would you jump, too? Just because a lot of people do it, doesn't mean it's Right or should happen.
 
2010-02-28 07:45:18 PM  

GimpyNip: LouDobbsAwaaaay: You'd never get away with this business model in any other context. "Yeah, we decided we aren't going to pay our cash-register people a living wage, so you're just going to have to duke them a few bucks every time you buy something to make up for it."

Really, ever heard a of a commision? What about general contract work? What about Real Estate Brokerage? What about incentive bounus? No other field?


Also in those fields there's an easy way to quantify performance (sales $ for example). Employers agree beforehand to pay based on performance as quantifed by a specified measure. Food service isn't like this. It's here's $2 an hour. If you want enough to live beg your customers for it and let them decide what you're worth instead of us.
 
2010-02-28 07:52:32 PM  

Ihopethisnamewillfi: If that would make for a good business model, wouldn't you see more places doing it?


Of course paying your staff a fair wage isn't going to put more $ in the owners pocket. What puts money in their pocket is paying their staff shiat wages and expecting the customers to make up the difference in tips.

Now, you may wonder why this matters? I mean, the waiters make just as much either way, right? (Wrong, but irrelevant.) Well, by paying so little in wages, the owner gets to lower prices (at least a little), thereby attracting more customers, while keeping more profit for themselves!! Yes, that's right- the restaurant owner loves tipping, because it allows them to get away with screwing over the staff AND customers at the same time, while making more money!!

So, all you people who get pissed that someone "only" tipped you a certain amount- why don't you get mad at the owner, who's screwing you, and not the customer, who's getting dicked by him, too.
 
2010-02-28 07:59:49 PM  

fredklein: Of course paying your staff a fair wage isn't going to put more $ in the owners pocket. What puts money in their pocket is paying their staff shiat wages and expecting the customers to make up the difference in tips.


What puts money in their pockets is being able to sell a meal for $7.95 and then selling a lot of them. If they had to pay waitresses 20 bucks an hour in order to keep them, they'd obviously have to raise prices. People would stay home rather than pay double.
 
2010-02-28 08:21:41 PM  

fredklein: keithgabryelski: 1) there are laws that allow service workers to be paid a fraction of the minimum wage with the expectation they will make it up in "tips".

And those laws are wrong and should be repealed. Tipping people more and more money is not the way to get them repealed. In fact, if anything, tipping more means that the 'fraction of minimum wage' that get paid is likely to grow smaller... after all, they make so much in tips...


Yes, those laws should be repealed. But there is no denying they are fact right now and tipping is the expected remedy.

2) 99% people tip, it is a reasonable assumption that you will tip.

If your friends all jumped off a bridge, would you jump, too? Just because a lot of people do it, doesn't mean it's Right or should happen.


This is not "jumping off a bridge" and suggesting this is somehow like attempted suicide is ridiculous.

Attempting to deny reality in no way releases you from the expectation that you should tip -- and not just because "the service was good" -- the laws allowing business owners to underpay service employees demand the public tip a reasonable amount each and every time they take a seat.
 
2010-02-28 08:27:53 PM  

GreenAdder: Thray: Sadly, I guess it works statistically. I try to go out of my way to hit places that just let their staff be themselves though.

This is why I seem to eat at local places more often than chains. The local places aren't going to push unnecessary and unnatural appetizers on me. They're just going to tell me their specials, maybe, and then wait for me to decide.


You, sir, have not thought this all of the way through. ALL restaurants push stuff on you. Specials = distressed inventory (not at all, but a LOT). It's the priceline of the restaurant world. Sometimes it's an obvious suggestion, sometimes a special. Sometimes it's the placement of the item on the menu. YES, even menu layout contributes to what people order. Does it work on everybody? No, of course not. Does it work enough to take seriously? YES.

NEWSFLASH: People who sell stuff use psychology against you. People who are good at it don't make it obvious. People who are really good at it make a good profit and have you thanking them on the way out.

I'm not saying that any of this is right or wrong. What I'm saying is that people who are successful in business rarely, if ever, rely on luck or random occurrences.

///From BusinessWeek Magazine: one in four restaurants close or change ownership within their first year of business. Over three years, that number rises to three in five.
 
2010-02-28 08:34:02 PM  

Ihopethisnamewillfi: fredklein: Of course paying your staff a fair wage isn't going to put more $ in the owners pocket. What puts money in their pocket is paying their staff shiat wages and expecting the customers to make up the difference in tips.

What puts money in their pockets is being able to sell a meal for $7.95 and then selling a lot of them. If they had to pay waitresses 20 bucks an hour in order to keep them, they'd obviously have to raise prices. People would stay home rather than pay double.


How can you make this argument with a straight face? If the cost of tips was worked into the meal it would cost the exact same. If your meal was $20 and you were expected to leave a 20% tip, then your total cost is $24. If you include the extra cost in the meal... then it is still $24, its just that the restaurant admitted it upfront.

The problem in your scenario is unskilled laborers thinking they are worth $20 an hour. Tell me one other unskilled job (outside of something dangerous) that pays even close to $20 an hour.
 
2010-02-28 08:40:39 PM  
HectorSchwartz: ///From BusinessWeek Magazine: one in four restaurants close or change ownership within their first year of business. Over three years, that number rises to three in five.

That because most of them are overcapitalized.
 
2010-02-28 08:42:42 PM  

HectorSchwartz: You, sir, have not thought this all of the way through. ALL restaurants push stuff on you. Specials = distressed inventory (not at all, but a LOT). It's the priceline of the restaurant world. Sometimes it's an obvious suggestion, sometimes a special. Sometimes it's the placement of the item on the menu. YES, even menu layout contributes to what people order. Does it work on everybody? No, of course not. Does it work enough to take seriously? YES.

NEWSFLASH: People who sell stuff use psychology against you. People who are good at it don't make it obvious. People who are really good at it make a good profit and have you thanking them on the way out.

I'm not saying that any of this is right or wrong. What I'm saying is that people who are successful in business rarely, if ever, rely on luck or random occurrences.

///From BusinessWeek Magazine: one in four restaurants close or change ownership within their first year of business. Over three years, that number rises to three in five.


Everyone has their methods no doubt, I just like places that seem to offer more leeway to their staff instead of a mindless script.
 
2010-02-28 08:43:11 PM  
StoPPeRmobile: HectorSchwartz: ///From BusinessWeek Magazine: one in four restaurants close or change ownership within their first year of business. Over three years, that number rises to three in five.

That because most of them are overcapitalized.


derr

I mean under-capitalized.

/No more gelo shots for me tonight.
 
2010-02-28 08:47:04 PM  

keithgabryelski: the laws allowing business owners to underpay service employees demand the public tip a reasonable amount each and every time they take a seat. service employees do a good job each and every time a customer takes a seat in order to earn their tip


Decide to get a job in an industry where you need to earn money through tips because the wages are crappy? Then knuckle down to some work, deliver good service and earn your tips. Don't cry about how unfair the rules of the industry you chose to join are and expect customers to fork over a tip for crappy service.
 
2010-02-28 08:51:34 PM  
Be happy your jobs are not going to India or China.
 
2010-02-28 08:57:07 PM  

Thoguh: Ihopethisnamewillfi: fredklein: Of course paying your staff a fair wage isn't going to put more $ in the owners pocket. What puts money in their pocket is paying their staff shiat wages and expecting the customers to make up the difference in tips.

What puts money in their pockets is being able to sell a meal for $7.95 and then selling a lot of them. If they had to pay waitresses 20 bucks an hour in order to keep them, they'd obviously have to raise prices. People would stay home rather than pay double.

How can you make this argument with a straight face? If the cost of tips was worked into the meal it would cost the exact same. If your meal was $20 and you were expected to leave a 20% tip, then your total cost is $24. If you include the extra cost in the meal... then it is still $24, its just that the restaurant admitted it upfront.

The problem in your scenario is unskilled laborers thinking they are worth $20 an hour. Tell me one other unskilled job (outside of something dangerous) that pays even close to $20 an hour.


It doesn't matter what they're worth, it's what they make that counts. If you think people are going to work as waitresses if you took away their tips and bumped their wag to something like 10 bucks an hour, you're crazy.

Also, the cost of the meal isn't raised by the amount of the tip, it's raised based on the extra labor costs for the owner. Again, you're farking nuts if you think people are going to wait tables for 10 bucks an hour. They can go work at Burger King where they throw the food onto a tray and never interact with the customer again for the same pay.
 
2010-02-28 09:05:25 PM  
Something I forgot In the last tipping thread.

This is for all you servers that like to tamper with food. You ever wonder what that sticky, slimy, stuff, on the bottom of the plate you pick up with your hands is?

Yep, it had penis or ass wiped on it for you enjoyment.

Enjoy your unskilled job you self entitled princesses.

penis
 
2010-02-28 09:12:56 PM  

Ihopethisnamewillfi: What puts money in their pockets is being able to sell a meal for $7.95 and then selling a lot of them. If they had to pay waitresses 20 bucks an hour in order to keep them, they'd obviously have to raise prices. People would stay home rather than pay double.


But that's the thing- people end up paying that much anyway. It's just that they pay part of it to the restaurant, and part directly to the waiter* (the tip), instead of seeing the whole price upfront, and paying it all to the restaurant.

*I'm using "waiter", but it applies to any tipped position.

Like I said, if owners were forced to pay reasonable wages (not this $2.13 an hour crap), they would end up making less profits themselves. So, that's the root of the problem: greed.

keithgabryelski: Yes, those laws should be repealed. But there is no denying they are fact right now and tipping is the expected remedy.


And, like I said, tipping is no 'remedy'. If anything, it makes the problem worse, both by feeding the EWs so they expect more and more, and by making it harder to repeal the laws.

To use an analogy: When you get an infection, you get a fever. The fever is your body's way of fighting the infection: it raises the temp to make it harder for the bacteria to live and breed. Less bacteria, less work for your white blood cells to do in killing the bacteria and making you well again.
Now, what happens if you take a fever reducing medication? It lowers your body temp, which allows the bacteria to live and breed like, well, bacteria. This makes it harder for your body to get well. Of course you look and feel better, because the fever reducers are mixed with pain relievers and decongestants and such, but you aren't actually better. In fact, you stay sick longer, which means you need to use (buy) more medicine, which the manufacturers love.

Tips make the waiters feel better, but the system is still broken. And the more people tip, the longer it stays broken and the harder it is to fix.

Attempting to deny reality in no way releases you from the expectation that you should tip -- and not just because "the service was good" -- the laws allowing business owners to underpay service employees demand the public tip a reasonable amount each and every time they take a seat.

And, at one point, the laws allowed separate drinking fountains for 'whites' and 'coloreds'. Do you think that wanting an end to racism, more specifically an end to "separate but equal", was "denying reality"? Do you think blacks, excuse me: "coloreds", should have just given in to the "expectation" that they were inferior??

Yes, I use extreme examples to point out the flaws in your arguments. No, I don't think tipping is the same as suicide, or racism. But the point is, just because it's legal doesn't make it Right. Just because it's popular doesn't make it Right, either. So arguments about 'social expectations' (ie: follow the crowd, give in to peer pressure), or 'b-b-but it's the law' don't really hold any water.
 
2010-02-28 09:15:20 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: Something I forgot In the last tipping thread.

This is for all you servers that like to tamper with food. You ever wonder what that sticky, slimy, stuff, on the bottom of the plate you pick up with your hands is?

Yep, it had penis or ass wiped on it for you enjoyment.

Enjoy your unskilled job you self entitled princesses.

penis


Aren't servers and busboys entirely different persons in most places?
 
2010-02-28 09:17:01 PM  
What about Mr. Stink? Does he get half?
 
2010-02-28 09:17:57 PM  

Ihopethisnamewillfi: It doesn't matter what they're worth, it's what they make that counts.


And in the rest of the world, they make a fair wage, and no tips.

If you think people are going to work as waitresses if you took away their tips and bumped their wag to something like 10 bucks an hour, you're crazy.

Some people will. Some won't. The EWs who expect 30% tips for minimal work won't, and honest, hardworking people who are happy to have a $10/hr job in this economy will.
 
2010-02-28 09:17:57 PM  
hey, maybe if waiters/servers got real jobs, they wouldn't have to live off the kindness of strangers
 
2010-02-28 09:19:26 PM  

fredklein: And, at one point, the laws allowed separate drinking fountains for 'whites' and 'coloreds'. Do you think that wanting an end to racism, more specifically an end to "separate but equal", was "denying reality"? Do you think blacks, excuse me: "coloreds", should have just given in to the "expectation" that they were inferior??


Either you're trolling, or you're very farking stupid. Then again, the two are almost never mutually exclusive.
 
2010-02-28 09:29:30 PM  

fredklein: Tips make the waiters feel better, but the system is still broken. And the more people tip, the longer it stays broken and the harder it is to fix.

Attempting to deny reality in no way releases you from the expectation that you should tip -- and not just because "the service was good" -- the laws allowing business owners to underpay service employees demand the public tip a reasonable amount each and every time they take a seat.

And, at one point, the laws allowed separate drinking fountains for 'whites' and 'coloreds'. Do you think that wanting an end to racism, more specifically an end to "separate but equal", was "denying reality"? Do you think blacks, excuse me: "coloreds", should have just given in to the "expectation" that they were inferior??

Yes, I use extreme examples to point out the flaws in your arguments. No, I don't think tipping is the same as suicide, or racism. But the point is, just because it's legal doesn't make it Right. Just because it's popular doesn't make it Right, either. So arguments about 'social expectations' (ie: follow the crowd, give in to peer pressure), or 'b-b-but it's the law' don't really hold any water.


the reality:

service persons are screwed by the law. It needs to be changed.

You suggest putting effort into further screwing service persons in hopes of somehow ... i don't know. just to pay less money? You are hurting the wrong people with your suggestion.

It is ridiculous.
 
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